BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[bobtehpanda]

Do the BxM1 and BxM2 super expresses make stops along Riverdale Av or 230 St?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Do the BxM1 and BxM2 super expresses make stops along Riverdale Av or 230 St?

The BxM1 and BxM2's that run via Riverdale Avenue only make one stop at 236th & Riverdale Avenue, and then they go down the hill and make two more stops along 230th (one at Tibbett and one at Broadway and 230th). Why the question?  I use them when traffic is really bad or I need to be in early and want to beat traffic.  From where I'm at I can be on the expressway in about 5 minutes.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[N6 Limited]

I was at Queens Center mall today and their information center has bus maps for all boroughs as well as the subway map. Nice one stop place for all maps.

[161 New York]

It's not even that bad outside (IMO not enough to just flat out stop bus service like that), I wish someone could call the MTA out on why *all* bus service had to be suspended in an entire borough (assuming the alert is true, which looking at Bustime it may have been, for instance there's only 2 Bx12 buses out and theyre both coming from Pelham Bay. nothing at all from Sedgwick.)

 

I found that the last snowstorm (2 inches of snow, but still) was worse, but since it was a workday, they kept it going. I think they got lazy on a lazy Sunday morning. Then again, you cant see black ice, so IDK...

At 07:00 it was bad on Staten Island. I was driving a SUV on Richmond Avenue past the Eltingville Transit Center and the ABS went off twice despite that I was driving 20-25 MPH knowing there was some icing on the road. Surprisingly the folks doing 40 didn't appear to have any issues.

 

At 08:00 I almost fell flat several times in the parking lot and observed the s79-SBS and s59 were going real slow.

 

At 09:15 at Woodrow/AR Kill Road there were about ten people at the s74/x17 stop which is unusual as I take the 09:00 x17 bus on Sundays and we might get two or three people (at the most) from that stop which tells me there could have been problems with the x17. There was one time 2-3 years ago when I was on the x17 and the B/O could not stop the bus from rolling down the hill on Arden Avenue until we got towards the VIllage Greens development. Also, the buses sometimes have difficulty getting up Woodrow Road to the terminal at Huguenot Avenue when there is icing.

 

Finally, all the Port Authority bridge crossings to/from Staten Island were closed between 08:00 - 11:30. That tells me this was bad and was unexpected.

Edited January 19, 2015 by 161passenger

[bobtehpanda]

The BxM1 and BxM2's that run via Riverdale Avenue only make one stop at 236th & Riverdale Avenue, and then they go down the hill and make two more stops along 230th (one at Tibbett and one at Broadway and 230th). Why the question?  I use them when traffic is really bad or I need to be in early and want to beat traffic.  From where I'm at I can be on the expressway in about 5 minutes.

 

Having another go at making an express bus map, so knowledge of the service patterns is fairly useful.

 

Those super-expresses make all stops before 236th, right? And does that mean that non-super express buses do not stop at 236/Riverdale?

Edited January 19, 2015 by bobtehpanda

[BxM4Woodlawn]

Having another go at making an express bus map, so knowledge of the service patterns is fairly useful.

 

Those super-expresses make all stops before 236th, right? And does that mean that non-super express buses do not stop at 236/Riverdale?

correct. the regular BxM1 and BxM2 do not stop at Riverdale Ave & 236th St. They stay on HH Parkway. and make all the stops over there

[Via Garibaldi 8]

correct. the regular BxM1 and BxM2 do not stop at Riverdale Ave & 236th St. They stay on HH Parkway. and make all the stops over there

 

 

Having another go at making an express bus map, so knowledge of the service patterns is fairly useful.

 

Those super-expresses make all stops before 236th, right? And does that mean that non-super express buses do not stop at 236/Riverdale?

Well here's the thing... The BxM1 technically has two types of Super Express variants...  The ones that make the one stop along Riverdale Avenue are Super Super Expresses since they bypass two segments of the route (Spuyten Duyvil/South Riverdale AND Inwood).  Then there is another Super Express BxM1 that does not stop along Riverdale Avenue, BUT SKIPS Inwood.  The BxM2 only has two Super Express trips (the two that run via Riverdale Avenue).  The BxM1 however has far more (via Riverdale Avenue AND the ones that skip Inwood throughout the day).  The BxM18 never stops along Riverdale Avenue, but is also a Super Express since it makes no stops North of 56th street (serving Midtown along 5th Avenue and Madison, and Downtown along Broadway and Trinity/6th).  At night I save a good 30 minutes using it over the BxM1 or BxM2.  Those BxM18 trips used to be Super Super Express BxM1's that ran via Riverdale Avenue, but made no stops until 56th street.  They took that whole idea from the BxM1 and moved those Midtown stops over to the BxM18 since Downtown service proved to be very popular here in Riverdale and now ridership is fairly split between Midtown riders and Downtown riders. For what it's worth there are quite a few Riverdale riders that are unaware of the Midtown stops since the advertises the BxM18 as a Downtown service, but the smart ones that know about it get it and save on their commute.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

It's tough there with the Expresses today

 

QM3 running with plenty of delays and hourly waits
 

No Downtown Loop nor Super Express on the BM's'; all buses make all stops.

 

Limited service on some BxM lines.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

At 07:00 it was bad on Staten Island. I was driving a SUV on Richmond Avenue past the Eltingville Transit Center and the ABS went off twice despite that I was driving 20-25 MPH knowing there was some icing on the road. Surprisingly the folks doing 40 didn't appear to have any issues.

 

At 08:00 I almost fell flat several times in the parking lot and observed the s79-SBS and s59 were going real slow.

 

At 09:15 at Woodrow/AR Kill Road there were about ten people at the s74/x17 stop which is unusual as I take the 09:00 x17 bus on Sundays and we might get two or three people (at the most) from that stop which tells me there could have been problems with the x17. There was one time 2-3 years ago when I was on the x17 and the B/O could not stop the bus from rolling down the hill on Arden Avenue until we got towards the VIllage Greens development. Also, the buses sometimes have difficulty getting up Woodrow Road to the terminal at Huguenot Avenue when there is icing.

 

Finally, all the Port Authority bridge crossings to/from Staten Island were closed between 08:00 - 11:30. That tells me this was bad and was unexpected.

LOL... I still remember years ago when we had a big snow storm, us having a TERRIBLE time getting up the hills on the X16 along Hylan and along Victory.  Bus was using everything it had, so with the ice it must've been that much worse.

[bobtehpanda]

What other Bronx routes have super-express variants? I know the BxM3 and BxM7 do.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What other Bronx routes have super-express variants? I know the BxM3 and BxM7 do.

The BxM3 is not a Bronx route, as it terminates in and makes several stops in Yonkers. It's better to just say which other BxM routes rather than the Bronx... Depending on how you want to look at it, the BxM8 has a super express variant, but the considers the few trips it makes to City Island as "extensions", with its regular terminus being Pelham Bay.  The BxM4 used to have a super express variant that went via the Major Deegan to Woodlawn and vice versa, but those trips were officially discontinued due to decreasing ridership, but exist unofficially when there are only folks going to Woodlawn or the Yonkers border. The BxM11 serves the Bronx Zoo when it is open, but I don't consider it to have a super express variant since that stop is technically right along the route, both Northbound and Southbound just as the bus hits the expressway.  It's just a matter of them taking that way or going another way, since the next stop is still right there in Pelham Parkway and saves one or two minutes, if that.  Part of the reason that most of the BxM's don't have super express variants is because they generally aren't necessary.  Unlike Queens, Brooklyn and Staten Island, most BxM express bus trips can be made in an hour or less.  Riverdale has the most express bus variants, and that is due to where a lot of ridership comes from.  It's segmented into North Riverdale, Fieldston, Central Riverdale ("Downtown Riverdale") and Spuyten Duyvil/South Riverdale.  They are time savers in the morning, but aren't really necessary at night.  Furthermore, they exist to keep overcrowding at bay.  For example, the BxM1's that run via Riverdale Avenue have a via Inwood bus that runs about 10 minutes before it and they often times will meet up with each other as they transcend the hill (the super express BxM1 as it comes down the hill via Riverdale Avenue, and the via Inwood BxM1 as it comes down the other hill via Johnson/Irwin Av).

Edited January 19, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

The BxM3 is not a Bronx route, as it terminates in and makes several stops in Yonkers. It's better to just say which other BxM routes rather than the Bronx... The BxM7 does not have any super express variants.  Depending on how you want to look at it, the BxM8 has a super express variant, but the considers the few trips it makes to City Island as "extensions", with its regular terminus being Pelham Bay.  

The BxM3 is suppose to serve Kingsbridge and Riverdale, which are indeed parts of the Bronx.

 

That's like saying the N4 is not a Nassau county route because it terminates in Queens .

Edited January 19, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The BxM3 is suppose to serve Kingsbridge and Riverdale, which are indeed parts of the Bronx.

 

That's like saying the N4 is not a Nassau county route because it terminates in Queens .

Doesn't matter.  It terminates in Yonkers and Manhattan (NOT the Bronx), and serves Yonkers with several stops, so it is not a "Bronx route". The N4 meanwhile has one terminus in Queens and one in Long Island, which several N routes have.  For the record, the depot is located in Yonkers, not the Bronx (hence Yonkers Depot), so it isn't even a Bronx Depot, though it is listed as one for logistical purposes.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

Doesn't matter.  It terminates in Yonkers and Manhattan (NOT the Bronx), and serves Yonkers with several stops, so it is not a "Bronx route". The N4 meanwhile has one terminus in Queens and one in Long Island, which several N routes have.  For the record, the depot is located in Yonkers not the Bronx, so it isn't even a Bronx Depot, though it is listed as one for logistical purposes.

Wrong, the Bailey Ave short-turns don't.

 

So just because several route terminate in Queens (from LI) makes it acceptable as an LI Bus, but because the BxM3 is the only one which passes the county line in the Bronx, it automatically makes it a Westchester Bus.

Edited January 19, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Wrong, the Bailey Ave short-turns don't.

 

So just because several route terminate in Queens (from LI) makes it acceptable as an LI Bus, but because the BxM3 is the only one which passes the county line in the Bronx, it automatically makes it a Westchester Bus.

This is ridiculous already.  You are talking about a depot that was once private and merged as part of Bus, and was never located in the Bronx, unless Yonkers suddenly became part of the Bronx overnight.    The schedule indicates service between "Yonkers" and Manhattan for a reason.  It is one of the few buses that the city pays for that is geared towards Westchester, even if the folks primarily in the Bronx (i.e. Kingsbridge Heights and Kingsbridge) use it. Its usage in Riverdale isn't as high in comparison to the BxM1, BxM2 and BxM18.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

This is ridiculous already.  You are talking about a depot that was once private and merged as part of Bus, and was never located in the Bronx, unless Yonkers suddenly became part of the Bronx overnight.    The schedule indicates service between "Yonkers" and Manhattan for a reason.  It is one of the few buses that the city pays for that is geared towards Westchester, even if the folks primarily in the Bronx (i.e. Kingsbridge Heights and Kingsbridge) use it. Its usage in Riverdale isn't as high in comparison to the BxM1, BxM2 and BxM18.

And where is the majority of the route, and the majority of the ridership of this "Yonkers to Midtown" service coming from? Which (county) residents is this service mainly catered towards? Which county's residents was it intended most for?

Edited January 19, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And where is the majority of the route, and the majority of the ridership of this "Yonkers to Midtown" service coming from? Which (county) residents is this service mainly catered towards? Which county's residents was it intended most for?

The majority of the ridership has already been clarified and was never debated, so I see no point in bringing that up.  That has nothing to do with where the bus terminates at, which is in Yonkers and Midtown.  Whatever short turn you are alluding to certainly doesn't exist in the schedule.  You are just trying to make a point with this whole Bronx nonsense that looks quite immature.  The depot is in Yonkers and the bus line terminates in Yonkers, and both of those are facts that you can't dispute. Give it a rest already. 

Edited January 19, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Cait Sith]

The majority of the ridership has already been clarified and was never debated, so I see no point in bringing that up. That has nothing to do with where the bus terminates at, which is in Yonkers and Midtown. Whatever short turn you are alluding to certainly doesn't exist in the schedule. You are just trying to make a point with this whole Bronx nonsense that looks quite immature. The depot is in Yonkers and the bus line terminates in Yonkers, and both of those are facts that you can't dispute. Give it a rest already.

He means the AM trips that start at Bailey.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

He means the AM trips that start at Bailey.

I see... Well yeah of course they start in the Bronx. It would make no sense to start them in Yonkers due to the super express BxM3's starting in Yonkers, but the official start point and end point is between Yonkers and Midtown, as those represent the end points and start points of the entire route.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[BxM4Woodlawn]

is there a reason why the BxM3 runs into Yonkers instead of terminating at the City Line?

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

I see... Well yeah of course they start in the Bronx. It would make no sense to start them in Yonkers due to the super express BxM3's starting in Yonkers, but the official start point and end point is between Yonkers and Midtown, as those represent the end points and start points of the entire route.

It doesnt make it a Yonkers bus and not make it Bronx Bus.

 

Ill give you two exanpled, the Bx12 and the B39. You think theyre Manhattan bus routes just because they originate in Manhattan and go out to the outerboroughs. The Bx12's depot is in Manhattan, despite it being in the bronx division. Most of the B39's route is really in Manhattan, so why is it the B39? They depot is in Brooklyn, and its suppose to serve mainly Brooklyn residents to Manhattan connecting to other modes of transport.

 

Starting points mean absolutely nothing if the intended target is for Bronx resident. This has been like this since day one at Liberty Lines. maybe the reasoning the bxm3 goes to YONKERS is because its a shorter deadhead, and the most cost effective route to NYC from Yonkers, so they might as well pick up there?

 

Don't you think beeline bus would have taken over the Bxm3 route and if it was a Yonkers route (proper) and provided services to and from Yonkers itself if the ridership was itself. Im sorry, but the BxM3 is a BRONX route which also serves residents of Yonkers as well.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

is there a reason why the BxM3 runs into Yonkers instead of terminating at the City Line?

Of course.  That isn't just by accident, and it isn't just because the depot is close by.  Liberty Lines designed express bus routes for the very Northern parts of the city and Yonkers.

 

It doesnt make it a Yonkers bus and not make it Bronx Bus.

 

Ill give you two exanpled, the Bx12 and the B39. You think theyre Manhattan bus routes just because they originate in Manhattan and go out to the outerboroughs. The Bx12's depot is in Manhattan, despite it being in the bronx division. Most of the B39's route is really in Manhattan, so why is it the B39? They depot is in Brooklyn, and its suppose to serve mainly Brooklyn residents to Manhattan connecting to other modes of transport.

 

Starting points mean absolutely nothing if the intended target is for Bronx resident. This has been like this since day one at Liberty Lines. maybe the reasoning the bxm3 goes to YONKERS is because its a shorter deadhead, and the most cost effective route to NYC from Yonkers, so they might as well pick up there?

 

Don't you think beeline bus would have taken over the Bxm3 route and if it was a Yonkers route (proper) and provided services to and from Yonkers itself if the ridership was itself. Im sorry, but the BxM3 is a BRONX route which also serves residents of Yonkers as well.

No I don't.  The express bus routes of Yonkers Depot were originally run by a Private Bus Line (Liberty Bus Line), and the routes out of the depot serve the very Northern parts of the Bronx such as Woodlawn, Wakefield, etc. along with Yonkers and the very Northwest part of the city (Riverdale).  ALL of the express buses out of Yonkers serve city residents and Westchester residents since they all either run to the city border OR into Yonkers.  The BxM3 running to the city line would not obtain enough ridership and so it makes sense that it runs into Yonkers.  That isn't to say that Getty Square is booming with ridership, but you also have to remember that these lines were created YEARS ago, and the areas as we know them today may not necessarily reflect ridership patterns when the routes were first created.  You cannot compare how a private bus company runs and with what purpose with the way that the runs.  Two completely different animals.  

 

The Yonkers Depot logo speaks for itself... It says "Getty Square" for a reason, and it isn't just because it terminates there.  The route was created specifically to target residents of the area.  Having the BxM3 terminate at the city line would also mean that there were 4 express buses serving Riverdale, albeit distinct sections but still 4 buses nonetheless, and that part of Riverdale doesn't need that much express bus service directly serving it.

 

 

The Bx12 is there to move people from the Bronx to Manhattan and vice versa.  Same deal with the B39.  The Bx12 is a Bronx route and the B39 is a Brooklyn route based on how they are marketed.  The BxM3 is a Yonkers route that also makes stops in the city.  Note that in the logo Getty Square and Riverdale are separate for a reason.  Two different markets... The same argument could be applied with the subway as we know it.  The lines were operated separately and thus marketed differently and not by accident either.  No different here either.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This wiki link provides further insight into who ran what prior to Liberty Lines.  For the record, Riverdale had its own private express bus service, and started it well before other neighborhoods had express bus service going back to the 50's and early 60's... A lot of these routes had to have been created with heavy community input as a result, as they were all relatively small private bus companies...

 

 

Liberty Lines Express Inc., from 1953 to 2004, also operated express bus service from the Bronx and Yonkers to Manhattan, under the Bernacchia Brothers Bus Company from 1953 and 1956 when it was changed to Liberty Lines Express brand, successor to the former operators of Pelham Parkway Express Inc. & Riverdale Transit Inc., similar to the bus pictured on the bottom right. Liberty Lines bought such companies as West Fordham Transit and Westchester Street Transportation in 1969, Yonkers Transit in 1972, Riverdale Transit in 1975, Club Transit in 1981, and Hartsdale Bus in 1999.^[1] This service is now run by MTA Bus effective on January 3, 2005, and operating out of its existing Yonkers Bus Depot.

Those routes were:^[2]

• BxM1 East Midtown Manhattan - Riverdale (formerly Riverdale Transit Inc.)
• BxM2 West Midtown Manhattan - Riverdale (formerly Riverdale Transit Inc.)
• BxM3 Midtown Manhattan - Getty Square, Westchester, via Bronx and Sedgwick Av. (formerly Riverdale Transit Inc.)
• BxM4A Midtown Manhattan - Bedford Park (discontinued under MTA Bus) (formerly Riverdale Transit Inc.)
• BxM4B Midtown Manhattan - Woodlawn, via Grand Concourse and Katonah Av. (nowBxM4) (formerly Riverdale Transit Inc.)
• BxM11 Midtown Manhattan - Wakefield, via White Plains Road (formerly Pelham Parkway Express Inc.)
• BxM18 Financial District, Manhattan - Riverdale

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Lines_Transit

Edited January 19, 2015 by Via Garibaldi 8

[Cait Sith]

Fun fact, Liberty Lines also had service between Lower Manhattan/Midtown and the Upper East Side. There were also a lot more route variations than we had during the takeover.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

No I don't.  The express bus routes of Yonkers Depot were originally run by a Private Bus Line (Liberty Bus Line), and the routes out of the depot serve the very Northern parts of the Bronx such as Woodlawn, Wakefield, etc. along with Yonkers and the very Northwest part of the city (Riverdale).  ALL of the express buses out of Yonkers serve city residents and Westchester residents since they all either run to the city border OR into Yonkers.  The BxM3 running to the city line would not obtain enough ridership and so it makes sense that it runs into Yonkers.  That isn't to say that Getty Square is booming with ridership, but you also have to remember that these lines were created YEARS ago, and the areas as we know them today may not necessarily reflect ridership patterns when the routes were first created.  You cannot compare how a private bus company runs and with what purpose with the way that the runs.  Two completely different animals.  

 

The Yonkers Depot logo speaks for itself... It says "Getty Square" for a reason, and it isn't just because it terminates there.  The route was created specifically to target residents of the area.  Having the BxM3 terminate at the city line would also mean that there were 4 express buses serving Riverdale, albeit distinct sections but still 4 buses nonetheless, and that part of Riverdale doesn't need that much express bus service directly serving it.

 

 

This wiki link provides further insight into who ran what prior to Liberty Lines.  For the record, Riverdale had its own private express bus service, and started it well before other neighborhoods had express bus service going back to the 50's and early 60's... A lot of these routes had to have been created with heavy community input as a result, as they were all relatively small private bus companies...

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Lines_Transit

 

The Liberty Lines website does mention the use of South Yonkers (when it ran all the services, but also includes the Bronx as well)

http://web.archive.org/web/20040602235538/http://www.libertylines.com/express.htm

 

The So. Yonkers disappears here

http://www.libertylines.com/express.htm

 

The BxM3 to the City Line only, and how it wouldn't have enough ridership, really depends the time of day, and the day of week. And if that wiki link (even though I don't bother with wiki links; I'd prefer to get things straight from the horse's mouth) is accurate enough, look at how LLE got it's routes; from other private operators. LLE primarly operated service for Bronx residents, and they've always had the BxM3 run service from South Yonkers, but that wasn't it's primary intended market (because seriously, City of Yonkers isn't enough for a successful service, much less if you have Metro North on the other side of the city). LLE has provided most of it's service for Bronx residents (LLE used to have a BxM3 pickup on 125 Street in Harlem. They really didn't care where the ridership came (well, they depended on the Bronx communities more than anything), as long as people were using their buses, and they had much more frequent service on the line too). 

 

To me, the way I see it, LLE acquired the routes, but in a way was trying to compete with MNRR service in these neighborhoods, because almost all the express bus lines (except the BxM11), ran near a MNRR service. The BxM4C managed to have a whole busload (no pun intended) of service mainly because of that reason, until Westchester stripped service down to the bare bones. The difference is the ridership on the BxM1-4 and 11.

 

To sum it all up, the service is most dependent on Bronx residents, and the headways resemble that type of service (making it attractive to these residents). If the BxM3 didn't serve Riverdale at all, the MTA would not run any super express service at all, and just have all buses run the full route. BxM3 ridership is also reliant on Kingsbridge, because they need both Riverdale and Kingsbridge communities to have sufficient ridership to continue running the service. I wouldn't say yonkers is an afterthought, but it doesn't really make or break the ridership on the BxM3 (at least during peak hours, where you can get away with it, off peak hours really, you're trying to get as many riders as possible), and since the BxM3 has fair loads on weekends, it shouldn't so much of a problem. They run it since the depot is nearby, and it is the fastest way and more cost-effective way to Manhattan (the BxM1-2 spend all their time in la-la land, and the BxM4 running it would be time-consuming, nevertheless the 4C runs in that area) and the extra ridership would be nice (especially weekends). 

Edited January 19, 2015 by BM5 via Woodhaven