BUS - Random Thoughts Thread

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm inclined to believe something similar happened on the B35 yesterday.... While walking eastward from E.18th (brighton line, church av), I noticed there were more people than normal waiting for a EB B35 last night @ E 18th - this was around 8 or so.... Made my way to Flatbush av, same abnormal amt. of ppl waiting... (I) Eventually hopped on a dollar cab, but about a minute or two before doing so, a bus made a swift left from off Flatbush SB onto Church EB (almost like the b/o was in some kind of hurry), then the B35 LTD to Brownsville signage lit up.... Never seen anything like that on the route...

 

My guess is, this was a DH-ing bus (they all take Linden) & that was told midstream to do an EB (well, a half-assed EB) trip to M. Gaston....

 

While I'm in the dollar cab, we hit Nostrand... Bus apparently broke down (but this doesn't explain w/e problem there was well west of Nostrand that had all those at Flatbush & E. 18th waiting for buses).... So there was another cool hundred + people waiting.. No way in hell all those people got on that same bus that started from Flatbush....

 

Those ppl. @ E. 18th were SOL (shit outta luck), because the EB B35 runs funny around that time anyway... There's either a shitload of WB buses doing trips to McDonald (to eventually head to JG) or running full to 1st av, and then DH-ing from there to JG....

 

 

Those two stories above .... just WOW.  Especially B35's at 8pm -- totally unacceptable.

 

Guess these incidents make you more confident in the fact that as your fare goes up, service improves, eh?

 

 

I've seen a few firsts today with the Bx12 SBS. One was a Westbound bus running drop-off only along Pelham Parkway. Bus had NIS signage up while carrying nearly a full load and would run up past the SBS shelter and local stop poles at Eastchester and Williamsbridge as a signal for waiting passengers to not consider getting on. The other was 2 out of 3 trips in an Eastbound bunch getting short-turned at Pelham Bay. One of the drivers warned passengers at Williamsbridge Road that his/her bus was getting short turned so a swarm of passengers flee to the bus immediately behind (which I happened to be on). The only problem is that the bus all these people flocked to also ended at Pelham Bay which pissed off quite a few passengers with some about to curse out the driver. There was a third bus that was bunched behind these two that did the honors of carrying a crushload into Bay Plaza but it's sad that quite a few passengers had to physically board three different buses to accomplish what the map shows as a one seat (if you're somehow able to get one) trip.

 

 

So I'm waiting for a Bx12, and after a bit of a wait (the SBS was a no-show) a local shows up. I get halfway between the Concourse and Fordham Plaza and what do I see? A deadheading Bx12 SBS coming from Kingsbridge Road that goes into service at Fordham Plaza! Good job Inwood dispatcher, you only gave about 200 people a 15 minute wait. No wonder bus ridership is down.

 

I know who the dispatcher is too; he'll send every second or third bus deadheading from Inwood via the Broadway Bridge/225th/Kingsbridge to FP every time there's even a slight delay.

What is being discussed, I've also noticed on the M86SBS, and it is likely happening on the M101/M102/M103.  I've been noticing for the last few weeks or so that I'll check BusTime to see where buses are, and when I go to refresh, suddenly there are two or three buses running back to back.  I suppose they're trying to alleviate the overcrowding situation in some cases.  It has been working well on the M86 overall, but not so well on other lines.  I think the longer the line is, the worse the problem becomes.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

All I know is that conventional approaches to keeping buses on schedule and alleviating overcrowding don't work when it comes to the Sardine Bus Service. If MTA were to be smart and add more buses they'll intentionally run them in packs so that half are sardine cans while the other half are carrying little more than air and then point to the average loads as reason to cut back to square one. So riders along Pelham Pkwy/Fordham Rd are SOL here. 

 

Also, intentional bunching (which I believe is going on with most of these low-headway routes) doesn't relive crowding at all from a rider's perspective. When bunching goes on most of the waiting crowd tries to squeeze on the first bus that shows up which is usually crowded. So most of the riders are on a packed bus and thus are experiencing overcrowding even if you have empty buses behind. Also, what analysis of bus rider behavior would lead anyone to think masses of commuters would seek out the trailing buses in bunches?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

All I know is that conventional approaches to keeping buses on schedule and alleviating overcrowding don't work when it comes to the Sardine Bus Service. If MTA were to be smart and add more buses they'll intentionally run them in packs so that half are sardine cans while the other half are carrying little more than air and then point to the average loads as reason to cut back to square one. So riders along Pelham Pkwy/Fordham Rd are SOL here. 

 

Also, intentional bunching (which I believe is going on with most of these low-headway routes) doesn't relive crowding at all from a rider's perspective. When bunching goes on most of the waiting crowd tries to squeeze on the first bus that shows up which is usually crowded. So most of the riders are on a packed bus and thus are experiencing overcrowding even if you have empty buses behind. Also, what analysis of bus rider behavior would lead anyone to think masses of commuters would seek out the trailing buses in bunches?

Well I for one will ALWAYS wait and take a less crowded M86 because I use BusTime like it's no tomorrow. I can't stand riding extremely crowded buses because in the winter time, the drivers crank on the heat like it's Siberia outside, so everyone has their big coats on and it's a sauna inside.  The M86 buses seem to run in packs of three heading west, so I know if one bus is packed to the rafters, there will likely be two following a block or so away to pick up those who were left behind and couldn't get on, but you're right, the average rider has no patience and won't wait. I've even seen a few of them just start walking when they don't see a bus in 5 or so minutes.

[B35 via Church]

Well I for one will ALWAYS wait and take a less crowded M86 because I use BusTime like it's no tomorrow. I can't stand riding extremely crowded buses because in the winter time, the drivers crank on the heat like it's Siberia outside, so everyone has their big coats on and it's a sauna inside.  The M86 buses seem to run in packs of three heading west, so I know if one bus is packed to the rafters, there will likely be two following a block or so away to pick up those who were left behind and couldn't get on, but you're right, the average rider has no patience and won't wait. I've even seen a few of them just start walking when they don't see a bus in 5 or so minutes.

The walking due to impatience has been going on throughout the city; I've been seeing this on routes here in Brooklyn alone where you wouldn't typically see ppl. getting fed up & walking... This is why I'm not exactly buying into the propaganda that's being pushed, that's more or less saying that riders don't want buses... That's how I view the (increased) publicizing of the problems with surface transit in this city (how delayed they are, how slow buses are, the bus bunching, etc. etc) esp. as of late - but you seldom ever hear of any publicizing of the problems within the subway that does not deal with aesthetics.... You even hear more of how problematic the RR is, more than you hear about issues plaguing subway service...

 

What I'm getting at is, riders want their buses... The more you force-feed something (well, anything) onto someone, the less attractive it becomes.... This is slowly happening with the subways I find; natives are resorting to other means of getting around that does not involve mass transit, as panhandlers, (the actual) homeless, and tourists are/have infiltrated our subways.....

 

Regardless of if it's the bus or the subway, there needs to be some diligence (not only by the MTA, but they are most certainly included) in going about how to make mass transit better in this city - Not the other damn way around... I mean, once upon a time, you felt like the fare you were paying was a bargain.... Now, the more they raise fares, the more I feel like I'm being intentionally gypped..... I don't know about you, but I take it personal when I feel like someone is trying to insult my intelligence; in this case, it's in the form of feeling like being swindled - and I don't take many things personal in life either...

 

I really don't want to be that anti-mass transit & pro-car guy, but with the antics going on, I gotta say, the more I'm being "driven" in that direction.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The walking due to impatience has been going on throughout the city; I've been seeing this on routes here in Brooklyn alone where you wouldn't typically see ppl. getting fed up & walking... This is why I'm not exactly buying into the propaganda that's being pushed, that's more or less saying that riders don't want buses... That's how I view the (increased) publicizing of the problems with surface transit in this city (how delayed they are, how slow buses are, the bus bunching, etc. etc) esp. as of late - but you seldom ever hear of any publicizing of the problems within the subway that does not deal with aesthetics.... You even hear more of how problematic the RR is, more than you hear about issues plaguing subway service...

 

What I'm getting at is, riders want their buses... The more you force-feed something (well, anything) onto someone, the less attractive it becomes.... This is slowly happening with the subways I find; natives are resorting to other means of getting around that does not involve mass transit, as panhandlers, (the actual) homeless, and tourists are/have infiltrated our subways.....

 

Regardless of if it's the bus or the subway, there needs to be some diligence (not only by the MTA, but they are most certainly included) in going about how to make mass transit better in this city - Not the other damn way around... I mean, once upon a time, you felt like the fare you were paying was a bargain.... Now, the more they raise fares, the more I feel like I'm being intentionally gypped..... I don't know about you, but I take it personal when I feel like someone is trying to insult my intelligence; in this case, it's in the form of feeling like being swindled - and I don't take many things personal in life either...

 

I really don't want to be that anti-mass transit & pro-car guy, but with the antics going on, I gotta say, the more I'm being "driven" in that direction.....

I have to agree with you.  There's only a few local buses that I use these days, and outside of the M86, I find most of them to be atrocious.  The only saving grace is BusTime, because I definitely get sick of having to use the subway for trips that I can do via the local bus, and most of the subway stations I use of course involve schlepping up tons of stairs (like 86th street on the Lex line).  You know how it is working long hours... You don't want to be bothered with that after a long day, so I will say thank goodness for BusTime, as it has allowed me to avoid the subway for short trips most of the time.  

 

However, I will admit that there are times when I stay in the city that I get so fed up with the local buses that I opt for a yellow taxi, which I can't stand doing since I have an unlimited express bus Metrocard, but I always get one quickly, and the cab ride sometimes is faster than waiting for drivers to be changed on the local bus, so I arrive to my destination much happier, and my partner likes me in a less cranky mood. lol What's also pathetic is that sometimes it takes me longer to get to my destination in the city than it does if I were going from the city to Riverdale.  So much for being Manhattan centric and having such "great" transportation... In any event, it isn't just the city.  Bus service continues to be a problem city wide.   

Edited December 23, 2016 by Via Garibaldi 8

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I wholly agree with B35 that bus service issues are far more publicized then such with the subway when it should very well be the opposite. Our subway is terrible in terms of on-time performance compared to peer cities with even older systems. Number one priority in terms of transit in this city needs to be getting the subway to a state of good repair and OTP rates that places like London and Paris can offer. However, all the press around transit outside of the SAS debut is dealing with the ridership gains of the subway and losses on the bus. To me there's a subliminal message being sent to riders through this that they should not bother with the buses since the MTA wants to cut into them anyway. The other subliminal which is even scarier to me is that the subway should be given a longer than necessary time horizon on which to correct it's issues because it's "attracting" riders in it's current state. 

 

I'm not a big nostalgia guy but while we're at it, I would be amazed if 2017 service (in terms of pure TPH levels into Manhattan) was equal to such in the '50's.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I wholly agree with B35 that bus service issues are far more publicized then such with the subway when it should very well be the opposite. Our subway is terrible in terms of on-time performance compared to peer cities with even older systems. Number one priority in terms of transit in this city needs to be getting the subway to a state of good repair and OTP rates that places like London and Paris can offer. However, all the press around transit outside of the SAS debut is dealing with the ridership gains of the subway and losses on the bus. To me there's a subliminal message being sent to riders through this that they should not bother with the buses since the MTA wants to cut into them anyway. The other subliminal which is even scarier to me is that the subway should be given a longer than necessary time horizon on which to correct it's issues because it's "attracting" riders in it's current state. 

 

I'm not a big nostalgia guy but while we're at it, I would be amazed if 2017 service (in terms of pure TPH levels into Manhattan) was equal to such in the '50's.

It makes sense though because the buses should complement our subways, and they currently aren't, which is leading to overcrowding on the subways that perhaps wouldn't be as pressing if buses were running better.  Whenever I have to take the subway, I cross my fingers and just hope that I can go the few stops that I need to without any serious issues because you just never know.

[paulrivera]

I've seen a few firsts today with the Bx12 SBS. One was a Westbound bus running drop-off only along Pelham Parkway. Bus had NIS signage up while carrying nearly a full load and would run up past the SBS shelter and local stop poles at Eastchester and Williamsbridge as a signal for waiting passengers to not consider getting on. The other was 2 out of 3 trips in an Eastbound bunch getting short-turned at Pelham Bay. One of the drivers warned passengers at Williamsbridge Road that his/her bus was getting short turned so a swarm of passengers flee to the bus immediately behind (which I happened to be on). The only problem is that the bus all these people flocked to also ended at Pelham Bay which pissed off quite a few passengers with some about to curse out the driver. There was a third bus that was bunched behind these two that did the honors of carrying a crushload into Bay Plaza but it's sad that quite a few passengers had to physically board three different buses to accomplish what the map shows as a one seat (if you're somehow able to get one) trip.

This. Plus Bustime is useless because the short turns show as local 12s both online and in person. Hell, my mom just saw a short turn and noticed it was an SBS before I did because of the light orange colored sign. I swore it was a local when it wasn't.

[R188 7857]

So, a Q28 short-turned at F Lewis & 35th today (never seen or had that happen before). The bus pulls into the first stop saying "Francis Lewis Bl 35 Av" and the driver is there using the external speakers saying the last stop is 35th like 20 times. So, I wait for the next bus, and I realize the side sign says "Franics Lewis Bl." Guess it's good that they don't use that destination too much, lol. 

[DetSMART45]

I wholly agree with B35 that bus service issues are far more publicized then such with the subway when it should very well be the opposite. Our subway is terrible in terms of on-time performance compared to peer cities with even older systems. Number one priority in terms of transit in this city needs to be getting the subway to a state of good repair and OTP rates that places like London and Paris can offer. However, all the press around transit outside of the SAS debut is dealing with the ridership gains of the subway and losses on the bus. To me there's a subliminal message being sent to riders through this that they should not bother with the buses since the MTA wants to cut into them anyway. The other subliminal which is even scarier to me is that the subway should be given a longer than necessary time horizon on which to correct it's issues because it's "attracting" riders in it's current state. 

 

I'm not a big nostalgia guy but while we're at it, I would be amazed if 2017 service (in terms of pure TPH levels into Manhattan) was equal to such in the '50's.

Some great points there, especially the way MTA is pushing subway over buses and the "be patient, it'll get there...eventually" approach to bettering the subway itself.

 

You brought up London as one example, and if you look at the entire TfL system, buses are a valuable part of it (to complement The Tube) and have always been treated as such.  Especially since The Tube doesn't run 24 hours, unlike in NYC.  But part of that has been the contract awarding of the bus routes, and companies (like NICE's Transdev/Veolia) compete for those awards because they are valuable.  And TfL tells those companies to run them to standards, or you'll be out.  (Side notes: The operators run the buses in the way most similar to DDOT drivers: the buses own the road, and car drivers know it.  Plus you have ACTIVE traffic/parking enforcement along bus routes.)

 

I think the main reason the MTA has been harping on the subway increases was to keep their endgame in the public's minds: the SAS project and other large-scale "needs" to be funded.  Helps to sell the upcoming 2017 (and future) fare increases as necessary.  As long as they keep future "needs" (via increased funding) as the light at the end of the tunnel, the better -- and people will tolerate current conditions for longer periods.

 

Except the tunnel never ends.

[IAlam]

So, a Q28 short-turned at F Lewis & 35th today (never seen or had that happen before). The bus pulls into the first stop saying "Francis Lewis Bl 35 Av" and the driver is there using the external speakers saying the last stop is 35th like 20 times. So, I wait for the next bus, and I realize the side sign says "Franics Lewis Bl." Guess it's good that they don't use that destination too much, lol. 

The Q28 has short turns? Since when?

 

On a side note the Q12 has worse short turns only cover 1/4 of the route but most people are used to it because every other bus is a short turn. But that's also the reason why the route is very reliable between 165th and Main St.

Edited December 24, 2016 by IAlam

[DetSMART45]

The Q28 has short turns? Since when?

 

On a side note the Q12 has worse short turns only cover 1/4 of the route but most people are used to it because every other bus is a short turn. But that's also the reason why the route is very reliable between 165th and Main St.

Yes, but the Q12 is one of the few routes that actually has short-turns noted in the schedule.

 

The use of short-turns is abused by dispatchers/road supervisors.  It completely masks problems, because I'm certain nobody keeps track of any of those used, so as to affect proper scheduling in the future.  "Next Bus Please" and short-turns should really be an anomaly, instead of the norm.

 

But that's part of the whole game, isn't it?

Edited December 24, 2016 by DetSMART45

[R188 7857]

The Q28 has short turns? Since when?

 

On a side note the Q12 has worse short turns only cover 1/4 of the route but most people are used to it because every other bus is a short turn. But that's also the reason why the route is very reliable between 165th and Main St.

Apparently, the bus was extremely late so it turned at F. Lewis and 35th, then deadheaded back to Flushing. 

[paulrivera]

Yes, but the Q12 is one of the few routes that actually has short-turns noted in the schedule.

 

The use of short-turns is abused by dispatchers/road supervisors.  It completely masks problems, because I'm certain nobody keeps track of any of those used, so as to affect proper scheduling in the future.  "Next Bus Please" and short-turns should really be an anomaly, instead of the norm.

 

But that's part of the whole game, isn't it?

Yeah, and at the root of the issue is the fact that most of those short-turns are directed from a remote location (e.g.:ENY and West Farms) where dispatchers are on a computer and tell drivers to short turn, as opposed to actually being out on the field seeing the actual road conditions and looking at where the ridership is.

 

Imagine if we had that BS on the subway: "Hey 1323 6 Pelham to Bridge, run light to 86th Street and not pick up passengers until you get there" or "Hey 1632 7 to Main, turn at Junction Blvd and when you turn, run light to Woodside", Our transit system would fall apart.

 

Our buses are about as mismanaged as they are on Long Island...

[Around the Horn]

So 677 was just spotted on the B63

Edited December 24, 2016 by Around the Horn

[MysteriousBtrain]

http://www.mta.info/news/2016/12/23/spreading-holiday-cheer

 

MTA gets into the holidays spirit and decorated 8179 as a "Santa Express" to perform some holiday runs.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Yes, but the Q12 is one of the few routes that actually has short-turns noted in the schedule.

 

The use of short-turns is abused by dispatchers/road supervisors.  It completely masks problems, because I'm certain nobody keeps track of any of those used, so as to affect proper scheduling in the future.  "Next Bus Please" and short-turns should really be an anomaly, instead of the norm.

 

But that's part of the whole game, isn't it?

I know for a fact that short-turns are overused on the Bx12 Sardine bus. However, if these short-turns were not being used you would have potentially half-hour wide gaps mid-route which would lead to outrageous crowding and ridership losses as folks either walk to resort to cabs. I'm far more concerned about the erratic or nonexistent headway maintenance on these routes which is leading dispatchers to resort to turning buses around short. 

Based on the ridership conditions on the Sardine Bus, there should be no short turns at all. But when you decide to cut PM service on such a busy route and there's not enough buses out on the road to limit ridiculous gaps from developing you need to cover your ass. The best idea would be to provide the proper levels of service, but with the MTA that's way too much to ask for. 

 

As far as i'm concerned I'm blaming the Bx12 issues 99% on the PM service cuts the MTA decided to make in April. Between Fall 2014 and then the SBS saw 4 minute headways during the PM Rush hour eastbound and the early PM Shoulder Westbound (likely since the extra trips to accommodate this were pull outs from Gun Hill that needed to be at Inwood between 4:30 and 5:30). But their yearly schedule review in 2015 found that the Westbound buses during the afternoon were not crowded enough to require such a headway based on their guidelines. So they went and cut those trips entirely and the headway rose to 5 minutes (which it was previous to this point). The problem is that the 4 minute headway was put in to satisfy Eastbound demand, which did require 4 minute headways based on the guidelines. So the loss of those buses meant Eastbound service was now underserved for the PM. Now that eastbound trips are slowed down by the increased demand, they are not making it to Bay Plaza in enough time to make Westbound trips when they need to.Therefore Westbound service during the PM Rush sucks as well. The situation would have been far better if they kept things as is instead of cutting service.

[B35 via Church]

I'm lovin these posts from Jubai & Paul about the Bx12.... Absolute gold....

Solidifies my position even stronger as to why I intentionally go out of my way to avoid taking that route....

 

You can pick the most remote point of that route (meaning, wherever along the route there's the biggest gap b/w connecting, or paralleling routes) & I'm still taking that connecting route & walking as long as I have to, to get wherever I might need to go along Pelham/Fordham.....

[paulrivera]

I'm lovin these posts from Jubai & Paul about the Bx12.... Absolute gold....

uhhh.... 

 

The Bx28 and 38 are too crowded, and they should use artics during the week.

 

The Bx13 should have a Limited stop service during rush hour.

 

The Q10 should be a Select Bus, and we should reinstate the old Q10A, run it in both directions and rename it the "JFK Link"

 

I don't always talk about the Bx12 

Edited December 24, 2016 by paulrivera

[B35 via Church]

uhhh.... 

 

The Bx28 and 38 are too crowded, and they should use artics during the week.

 

The Bx13 should have a Limited stop service during rush hour.

 

The Q10 should be a Select Bus, and we should reinstate the old Q10A, run it in both directions and rename it the "JFK Link"

 

uhhh, what?

 

In regards to my prior post, I don't see the point you're trying to make with this.....

Edited December 24, 2016 by B35 via Church

[paulrivera]

 

In regards to my prior post, I don't see the point you're trying to make with this.....

I was trying to say I don't always talk about the 12 lol. I think I misunderstood your point, my apologies...

Edited December 24, 2016 by paulrivera

[B35 via Church]

I was trying to say I don't always talk about the 12 lol.

Alright.... but what does that have to do with my acknowledgment of your posts about the Bx12?

 

Of course you talk about other things; like where is this coming from.....

 

 

-------------

 

Just saw the edit to your post there... & cool, no problem.

 

My point was, with the information that you & Jubai post on here about the Bx12, combined with the fact that the Bx12 is a route I already don't bother utilizing, it's further reason for me to not take the route.... It wasn't any knock on you whatsoever....

 

In laymens, the shit that's currently going on with the route that you two are apprising the forums of, is news to me...

Edited December 24, 2016 by B35 via Church

[paulrivera]

Alright.... but what does that have to do with my acknowledgment of your posts about the Bx12?

 

Of course you talk about other things; like where is this coming from.....

I don't know, I was reading too much into your post I guess... I totally misunderstood the context.

Edited December 24, 2016 by paulrivera

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

uhhh.... 

 

The Bx28 and 38 are too crowded, and they should use artics during the week.

 

The Bx13 should have a Limited stop service during rush hour.

 

The Q10 should be a Select Bus, and we should reinstate the old Q10A, run it in both directions and rename it the "JFK Link"

 

I don't always talk about the Bx12 

I would rather see artics there then on the Bx12 local to be honest but I would also like frequencies to stay as is. 5 minutes AM Rush and 6 minutes PM Rush is the bare minimum for an attractive service and that's where the current Bx28/38 stands with 40 footers.

[checkmatechamp13]

The walking due to impatience has been going on throughout the city; I've been seeing this on routes here in Brooklyn alone where you wouldn't typically see ppl. getting fed up & walking... This is why I'm not exactly buying into the propaganda that's being pushed, that's more or less saying that riders don't want buses... That's how I view the (increased) publicizing of the problems with surface transit in this city (how delayed they are, how slow buses are, the bus bunching, etc. etc) esp. as of late - but you seldom ever hear of any publicizing of the problems within the subway that does not deal with aesthetics.... You even hear more of how problematic the RR is, more than you hear about issues plaguing subway service...

 

To give you an idea, there's been times when I got off the S92 in the AM rush, checked BusTime and saw that both the S53 & S93 were like 15+ minutes away, and there was already traffic on Clove Road, so I said screw it, and walked all the way to the Grasmere SIR station. (If I had taken the S93, I would've gone to Richmond Road or Targee Street and walked from there).

 

There's been times I've done the same thing in reverse (walking from Grasmere to Victory & Clove). To the point where if I'm already doing a bus trip's worth of walking, I might as well save myself a fare and just walk straight to work (even though that's about a 5 mile trip) 

 

Heck, my little brother did that back in high school. He got so fed up with the S62/92-S54 that he just walked about 3 miles straight to school.