Could the 3rd Ave El been saved, plus interconnected with todays Subway?

[RailRunRob]

Having to travel to the 3 Ave Area 3 times last week.. I really felt the lack of Service to this area.. The 3rd Ave line for sure could have been saved and used! Understood. Cost seems to the ultimately and the area falling into disrepair the Line was taken down.. Wish the city had the foresight to holdout seems the line could have easily been tied into the subway. worst case into the Lexington Ave Line. Extending the line back down to or around 138th street. With Property acquisition and construction of a tunnel portal the direct area of E138th ,137sts or as far west as Rider Ave crossing under Canal Place and Canal St and linked in with the Lexington Ave line. Tunnel realignment would be question linking into Pelham or Jerome/Dyre Trackage. Of course the with the Lex being at Capacity adjustment to TPH for the 4,5,6 would have been made..Making the (8) a direct service into Manhattan. Money over infrastructure everytime.

[Gorgor]

No, elevated subway are disgusting and block out all sunlight for the streets below. I'm so glad that they removed it a while back.

[Shortline Bus]

Young Man there was plans to replace most of the el lines like the 3rd Ave el in the Bronx and Myrtle along Brooklyn. However besides the points you mentioned, the biggest blame why those replacements never occured was the '3' eras of fiscal crisis over the last 35-40 years going back to the early 1970's.

 

 

Having to travel to the 3 Ave Area 3 times last week.. I really felt the lack of Service to this area.. The 3rd Ave line for sure could have been saved and used! Understood. Cost seems to the ultimately and the area falling into disrepair the Line was taken down.. Wish the city had the foresight to holdout seems the line could have easily been tied into the subway. worst case into the Lexington Ave Line. Extending the line back down to or around 138th street. With Property acquisition and construction of a tunnel portal the direct area of E138th ,137sts or as far west as Rider Ave crossing under Canal Place and Canal St and linked in with the Lexington Ave line. Tunnel realignment would be question linking into Pelham or Jerome/Dyre Trackage. Of course the with the Lex being at Capacity adjustment to TPH for the 4,5,6 would have been made..Making the (8) a direct service into Manhattan. Money over infrastructure everytime.

[checkmatechamp13]

Having to travel to the 3 Ave Area 3 times last week.. I really felt the lack of Service to this area.. The 3rd Ave line for sure could have been saved and used! Understood. Cost seems to the ultimately and the area falling into disrepair the Line was taken down.. Wish the city had the foresight to holdout seems the line could have easily been tied into the subway. worst case into the Lexington Ave Line. Extending the line back down to or around 138th street. With Property acquisition and construction of a tunnel portal the direct area of E138th ,137sts or as far west as Rider Ave crossing under Canal Place and Canal St and linked in with the Lexington Ave line. Tunnel realignment would be question linking into Pelham or Jerome/Dyre Trackage. Of course the with the Lex being at Capacity adjustment to TPH for the 4,5,6 would have been made..Making the (8) a direct service into Manhattan. Money over infrastructure everytime.

 

The Third Avenue El originally traveled all the way down 3rd Avenue to South Ferry. The line was slowly cut back: It was cut back to Chatham Square in 1950, and was cut back to 149th Street in 1955.

 

As far as tying it into another line goes, the only line with enough capacity would've been the Manhattan section, but since they tore it down, there was nothing it could connect to (it couldn't connect to the Concourse Line even if they were able to build the connection because the line was built to IRT specs.

 

I do think they should've kept the portion in the Bronx, though I agree with them tearing down the Manhattan portion (even though it left the East Side of Manhattan with an overcrowded subway line). I doubt the UES would've become the wealthy neighborhood it is today if the Third Avenue El were still around (and, as people pay a premium to live in Manhattan, I think it would be wise to keep the property values as high as possible)

 

In the Bronx on the other hand, the El would benefit the area by providing transit service right to the neighborhood. Even though it would be a blight, it would prevent the neighborhood from having to depend on buses for transportation.

 

No, elevated subway are disgusting and block out all sunlight for the streets below. I'm so glad that they removed it a while back.

 

They are a blight, but a necessary one to provide decent service to an area. For example, when I lived in Brighton Beach, the trains used to screech around that curve, but people put up with it because it provided fast, frequent service to Manhattan.

[RailRunRob]

In Manhattan yes.. of what seven lines in the Bronx what five are elevated?

Service could have have been used in that area.

[Gorgor]

In Manhattan yes.. of what seven lines in the Bronx what five are elevated?

Service could have have been used in that area.

 

[Nova RTS 9147]

 

Yea......no!

 

Lex is crowded enough with three lines.

 

The Third Avenue El originally traveled all the way down 3rd Avenue to South Ferry. The line was slowly cut back: It was cut back to Chatham Square in 1950, and was cut back to 149th Street in 1955.

 

As far as tying it into another line goes, the only line with enough capacity would've been the Manhattan section, but since they tore it down, there was nothing it could connect to (it couldn't connect to the Concourse Line even if they were able to build the connection because the line was built to IRT specs.

 

I do think they should've kept the portion in the Bronx, though I agree with them tearing down the Manhattan portion (even though it left the East Side of Manhattan with an overcrowded subway line). I doubt the UES would've become the wealthy neighborhood it is today if the Third Avenue El were still around (and, as people pay a premium to live in Manhattan, I think it would be wise to keep the property values as high as possible)

 

 

They should have waited for the SAS to actually be built before tearing down the elevated. There's no reason why the entire east side of Manhattan had to suffer so the bourgeois of the UES can have an even more expensive condo.

[Vistausss]

In Manhattan yes.. of what seven lines in the Bronx what five are elevated?

Service could have have been used in that area.

 

That's why we have people like Roadcruiser1 on this forum with a detailed plan on what you just mentioned about connecting to The Bronx

[MTARegional Bus]

No, elevated subway are disgusting and block out all sunlight for the streets below. I'm so glad that they removed it a while back.

 

 

Speak for yourself, those thing work wonders on hot summer days.

[Roadcruiser1]

Unfortunately it's gone, and there is nothing you can do about that. The only thing we can do now is hope that the would get extended into the Bronx into the far future. It won't be in our lifetimes though I guarantee that. However I did create proposals to elevated the along Third Avenue in the Bronx. It would terminate at the lower level of the Gun Hill Road station. It's possible since they already gutted out the lower level of the Gun Hill Road station, and therefore could be converted into a BMT/IND standard platform, and the new line would be elevated also.

 

Besides there is nothing wrong with elevated lines. They only get bad racks in this nation, because everyone thinks an elevated line would end up looking like the West End Elevated, and become a giant metal scar across the land. No one said that elevated lines can't be built with other materials, or could they be made into beautiful structures either. Concrete is an example that could be used. Look at the elevated structures of the Vancouver Skytrain. That should serve as an example for future elevated train lines in the future for this nation. Hell you can build an elevated line out of limestone, and granite, and it could turn out looking like a Roman Aqueduct.

[RailRunRob]

True.. Just a waste that line should have tied into the subway back in the 50's just as the Eastern End of the Fulton ect. Overcrowding was invertible with the development of the UES. The line would have been used in someway the Lex The 5 might have taken shape over this line to GunHill point being headways or TPH would have been shaped around that extra line over the years. Will ever be built.? with Millions more moving to NewYork, not just UES but The population The Bronx will surely rise as well, We see it happening in Mott Haven and around the 161st area.. People will need places to live and will need to be moved to and from the City.. This City is going to have major issues over the next 50 years. Needs to be some expansion and solutions very soon.

[RailRunRob]

Unfortunately it's gone, and there is nothing you can do about that. The only thing we can do now is hope that the would get extended into the Bronx into the far future. It won't be in our lifetimes though I guarantee that. However I did create proposals to elevated the along Third Avenue in the Bronx. It would terminate at the lower level of the Gun Hill Road station. It's possible since they already gutted out the lower level of the Gun Hill Road station, and therefore could be converted into a BMT/IND standard platform, and the new line would be elevated also.

 

Besides there is nothing wrong with elevated lines. They only get bad racks in this nation, because everyone thinks an elevated line would end up looking like the West End Elevated, and become a giant metal scar across the land. No one said that elevated lines can't be built with other materials, or could they be made into beautiful structures either. Concrete is an example that could be used. Look at the elevated structures of the Vancouver Skytrain. That should serve as an example for future elevated train lines in the future for this nation. Hell you can build an elevated line out of limestone, and granite, and it could turn out looking like a Roman Aqueduct.

 

 

Your Right there isnt thing wrong with Elevated Lines. Way cheaper per mile to Build thats for sure. If or when is extended into the Bronx Elevated or Tunnel is the question.

[Wallyhorse]

Yea......no!

 

Lex is crowded enough with three lines.

 

They should have waited for the SAS to actually be built before tearing down the elevated. There's no reason why the entire east side of Manhattan had to suffer so the bourgeois of the UES can have an even more expensive condo.

 

That was also a completely different time and place.

 

They would have had to have re-built the 3rd Avenue El anyway sometime during the 1970s or '80s (Bronx portion) if they had wanted it to continue regardless of whether or not it went into a portal and onto another line. I would have actually rebuilt the El to BMT/IND specs so it could eventually become a Bronx extension of the SAS, something I would be actually looking at doing if I had a chance to do a complete rebuild of the 3rd Avenue El (entirely to BMT/IND specs with CBTC and stations possibly as long as 750 feet to allow for either 10 75-foot cars to 12 60-foot cars on such a line), with an express branch of such a line joining a Bronx branch of the SAS to provide service on what would be a Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue El while a local portion would head across 125th Street (above ground) to join another SAS branch (below ground) to serve a low elevated terminal at Broadway-12th Avenue that I do think will be necessary for the SAS anyway as Columbia University continues their massive expansion.

[RailRunRob]

Indeed being that a curve onto 125th is already in the works an extension could be useful for Eastside Access for that part of town With many jobs being in Midtown East I think ridership would be good. Wouldn't be all that hard besides disruptions during construction not to much foundations to shore up in that area. Easy to slide the line right under the IRT and IND lines. The issue for sure be around the 12th Ave area. With maybe digging around Water tables and pumping ect..

[Roadcruiser1]

There's not going to be express service on the Second Avenue Subway. It seems like it's going to be a 2 tracked line all the way from 125th Street to Hanover Square.

[Fresh Pond]

Indeed being that a curve onto 125th is already in the works an extension could be useful for Eastside Access for that part of town With many jobs being in Midtown East I think ridership would be good. Wouldn't be all that hard besides disruptions during construction not to much foundations to shore up in that area. Easy to slide the line right under the IRT and IND lines. The issue for sure be around the 12th Ave area. With maybe digging around Water tables and pumping ect..

 

Ah, the Manhattanville area. To put it bluntly, if you wanna build a subway there, you're pretty much f*cked lol. That's the reason why the is elevated over there. That's and the almost impossible to manage grade.

[MikeGerald]

The 1970's Bronx portion of the Third Avenue EL could have been tied into the #2 and #5 lines just north of the 149th Street-Third Avenue station. There Third Avenue El trains could then join the subway elevated tracks for trips to Manhattan and/ or Brooklyn. The El structures of both lines were fairly close to each other, and attaching at that point would require much less physical effort or cost.

 

Now here's the problem - the Bronx Third Avenue El and its stations would still need to be refurbished and relatively modern subway cars purchased for the line. In addition there is a greater problem - the corridor across 149th Street would have to handle three subway lines, and then at the 149th Street-Grand Concourse station interact and mix with #4 Jerome/Lexington Avenue trains. That would become a major congestion point for all trains.

 

Just where would these Third Avenue El trains go? In Manhattan? In Brooklyn? And at what frequency of service to really help out Bronx riders, while also NOT reducing service along the current #2, #3, #4, #5 or #6 transit lines?

 

A subway track can accommodate at most 30 trains per hour in each direction, meaning a train every 2 minutes, as the highest frequency of service. Yes, the E and F lines, sometimes the #7 line, and at times the #4 and #5 achieve such a frequency of service during the rush hours. And yes, for a time the Montague Street tunnel for the M, N and R lines during the 2000's held three full-usage lines on just two tracks. This was during the period when the Manhattan Bridge was being renovated, and the D, Q, QB and/or W trains traveled over the Manhattan Bridge.

 

So just where would these #8 trains go? Down Lexington Avenue as another local train to/from Brooklyn Bridge? Down Lenox and Seventh Avenues as a variation of the #2 or #3 lines? Down Lexington Avenue similar to the #4 or #5 lines? Now that the Bronx Third Avenue El is connected to the subway above 149th Street in the Bronx, and trains can travel to/from Manhattan/Brooklyn - just what would you do with it?

 

Mike

[checkmatechamp13]

Exactly. There is no line with sufficient capacity to provide a decent level of service to all of the lines it serves.

[Roadcruiser1]

Well it seems possible that it could have had been connected to the No. train if it kept it's current IRT specifications. All they need to do is shut down the 148th Street Station, and Lenox Yard, and send the through the Harlem River in a tunnel, and have it connect to the line.

[RailRunRob]

The 1970's Bronx portion of the Third Avenue EL could have been tied into the #2 and #5 lines just north of the 149th Street-Third Avenue station. There Third Avenue El trains could then join the subway elevated tracks for trips to Manhattan and/ or Brooklyn. The El structures of both lines were fairly close to each other, and attaching at that point would require much less physical effort or cost.

 

Now here's the problem - the Bronx Third Avenue El and its stations would still need to be refurbished and relatively modern subway cars purchased for the line. In addition there is a greater problem - the corridor across 149th Street would have to handle three subway lines, and then at the 149th Street-Grand Concourse station interact and mix with #4 Jerome/Lexington Avenue trains. That would become a major congestion point for all trains.

 

Just where would these Third Avenue El trains go? In Manhattan? In Brooklyn? And at what frequency of service to really help out Bronx riders, while also NOT reducing service along the current #2, #3, #4, #5 or #6 transit lines?

 

A subway track can accommodate at most 30 trains per hour in each direction, meaning a train every 2 minutes, as the highest frequency of service. Yes, the E and F lines, sometimes the #7 line, and at times the #4 and #5 achieve such a frequency of service during the rush hours. And yes, for a time the Montague Street tunnel for the M, N and R lines during the 2000's held three full-usage lines on just two tracks. This was during the period when the Manhattan Bridge was being renovated, and the D, Q, QB and/or W trains traveled over the Manhattan Bridge.

 

So just where would these #8 trains go? Down Lexington Avenue as another local train to/from Brooklyn Bridge? Down Lenox and Seventh Avenues as a variation of the #2 or #3 lines? Down Lexington Avenue similar to the #4 or #5 lines? Now that the Bronx Third Avenue El is connected to the subway above 149th Street in the Bronx, and trains can travel to/from Manhattan/Brooklyn - just what would you do with it?

 

Mike

 

Fully understood Mike the issues had crossed my mind.. Im not looking at it from a modern issue if this was done lets say late 50's Why couldnt you shift a few TPH up via 3rd more then likey it would be a local looping at Brooklyn Bridge. Link in the 3rd @ or about 138th into the Pelham with a Juction there. Run it down via the local or.. Run the via 3rd to 241 or GunHillRoad. With the 2 and 3 serving Dyre and WhitePlains Road. This is before the days of 30 TPH rushhours. Number assigned Line or colorcodes.. Think about as a whole.. People need to be moved.. If there were2- 4 Less Trains per hour on the 4,5,6 and the 8 or whatever filled that gap it's the same mass.. How Many people going to or from manhattan are using the 2,4 or 5 to crosstown buses Bx12,36,40 ect.

Just Displacement to 3rd ave with closer stops to home.(B/D does lighten the load to the westside) Rush is a mass migration day in and dayout.

[Roadcruiser1]

People wanted the elevated line to come down. High officials believed what Gorgor said on the first page, and killed them. It's due to the fact that people had high hopes the Second Avenue Subway would be completed, and it would replace the elevated line. The truth was they never saw it coming, and there were people that accepted this fact. People protested to save the Third Avenue Elevated even during 1949, but it was worthless, because officials saw the automobile as the future back then. Robert Moses was in power, and wanted more highways, and even at one point got the state to provide very little money for the subway.

[MikeGerald]

While the full-length Third Avenue El met the #6 train at the 138th Street-Third Avenue station, it was a transfer between an underground station, and an elevated station, most likely an "out of system" transfer rather than like the transfer at the 149th St-Third Avenue station which was an "in-system transfer". As a kid living in the Bronx, I remember the transfer to/from the Bronx Third Avenue EL before it was removed.

 

My point that joining the Third Avenue EL and the #6 line is very expensive operation - building tunnels and ramps to/from the elevated line, etc. compared to the already elevated junction with the #2 and #5 lines that existed and was in operation.

 

Closing stations in Harlem to better serve stations in the Bronx is not a good idea. The 1940's-50's were the days of 30 TPH, just take a look at the train schedules of that era - the subway and el lines were busy. Having the Third Avenue El as simply another Lexington Avenue local like the #6, is a decent idea. It is the implementation that would get tricky.

 

Mike

[RailRunRob]

While the full-length Third Avenue El met the #6 train at the 138th Street-Third Avenue station, it was a transfer between an underground station, and an elevated station, most likely an "out of system" transfer rather than like the transfer at the 149th St-Third Avenue station which was an "in-system transfer". As a kid living in the Bronx, I remember the transfer to/from the Bronx Third Avenue EL before it was removed.

 

My point that joining the Third Avenue EL and the #6 line is very expensive operation - building tunnels and ramps to/from the elevated line, etc. compared to the already elevated junction with the #2 and #5 lines that existed and was in operation.

 

Closing stations in Harlem to better serve stations in the Bronx is not a good idea. The 1940's-50's were the days of 30 TPH, just take a look at the train schedules of that era - the subway and el lines were busy. Having the Third Avenue El as simply another Lexington Avenue local like the #6, is a decent idea. It is the implementation that would get tricky.

 

Mike

 

Agreed Thinking more about it the dynamics of it would be tricky def can add without taking something away... Indeed I remember the transfer as well wasnt there a underpass at 149/3 Ave? I think I remember that as well.. like in the 80's? Mike I guess the question is what is the City doing to plan for the next 100 years. The Bronx is def in the plans for re-developmental and covering that area rapid transport is vital.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

No, elevated subway are disgusting and block out all sunlight for the streets below. I'm so glad that they removed it a while back.

 

You've never been on an elevated subway line, have you? It may not be pretty, but people do use it to go places. Meanwhile, the people in the Bronx who used the Third Avenue El before the selfish real estate developers and short-sighted anti-blight activists had it torn down, now have to pack onto buses then crowd onto the already packed and trains at Third Avenue-149th St. If they ever get around to extending the or to the central Bronx, it has to be built from scratch. It didn't have to be this way.

 

Would central Bronx residents be accepting of a new el structure up Third Avenue (or a parallel street)? Maybe the MTA ought to survey the residents in that area.

[TwoTimer]

I and others have suggested Park Avenue (to Fordham) since that street runs up mostly commerical interests from 161 going north, with the residential a block or two off on either side, so it wouldnt be out their front door or window but just a short 5 min or less walk away. The people in the area though would be more concerned about 2.50... and may balk at the idea that if TA said we'd extend it up there if you'd anti up $3 for a fare