Could the 3rd Ave El been saved, plus interconnected with todays Subway?

[Trainmaster5]

The point I was trying to make about the Bay Ridge ROW is that if it were to be used for any type of passenger service it would have to be RAILROAD equipment sharing the tracks with freight. The LIRR doesn't want to even service the line as is, hence, New York and Atlantic handling the freight aspect. I believe that it's illegal to have SUBWAY equipment operating alongside freight equipment. If anything, the LIRR has shed passenger stations within the city limits in the last half century. They believe intra-city service is NYCTA's problem.

[subwaykid256]

I have an Idea for a 3rd Avenue line in Brooklyn

 

Extend Future to Brooklyn through Pierrepont Street than go down on Court Street, Turn on 2nd Pl than advance to 3 Street than go on 3rd Av Than Go to Bay Ridge Pkwy then Go to Stillwell Av. The line is mostly Underground

 

Here Are My Proposed Stations

 

Pierrepont-Clinton Sts Transfer Available for on Court St and At Borough Hall

Atlantic Av/Court Street

Caroll Park/ Court Street (Exits will be on President,Union and Carroll Sts)

Hoyt St/3 Street

9 Street/3 Avenue (Build Passageway to Transfer for At 4 Av-9 Sts

Prospect Av-20 Street/3 Avenue (Exits will Be on Prospect Av, 17,and 18 sts than Passageway will extend for Exits on 19 and 20 Sts

29 Street/3 Avenue

39 Street/3 Avenue

49 Street-Sunset Terrace/3 Avenue

59 Street/3 Avenue (Possible Transfer To At 4 Av

Bay Ridge Av-69 Street/3 Avenue

4 Avenue/Bay Ridge Parkway (Transfer to At 77 St(

Fort Hamilton Pkwy-7 Avenue/ Bay Ridge Pkwy

10 Avenue/Bay Ridge Pkwy (Build Exits on 9th and 10 Aves)

13 Avenue/Bay Ridge Pkwy (Build Exits on 12 and 13 Aves)

New Utrecht Av/ Bay Ridge Pkwy (Build Exits on 15, 16 and New Utrecht Aves)

18 Avenue/Bay Ridge Pkwy (Build Exits on 18 and 19 Aves)

Bay Parkway/Bay Ridge Pkwy (Build Exits on 21 Av and Bay Pkwy)

Kings Highway/Stillwell Av (Build Exits on Kings Hwy,23 Av,79 St and Quentin Rd)

86 Street (Build Exits on Ave T, Ave U and 86 St)

Bay 50 Street Build Exits on Bay 49 St and Harway Av and in Addition use one of Exiting Bay 50 St Exits to Build A Transfer to

Coney Island Stillwell Av (TERMINAL Transfer to

[Roadcruiser1]

There is no need for that. The Fourth Avenue Subway provides both local and express service. It's more the enough. Besides I use that line, and I don't see any overcrowdings. The if it should ever be brought back should run local on the Fourth Avenue Line weekdays only without late night service. That should fill in the gap by the (Mx).

[East New York]

Who knows. Given the demands of China and India, I could see gas prices skyrocket to $7, $8 or even $10 per gallon in the next few years. We are going to almost certainly see $5 a gallon gas on the west coast this summer.

 

Anyway, that's what makes me think if prices continue to rise, we could see a rebuilt 3rd Avenue El in Manhattan, as I think if prices get past a certain point, the objections would be far less than now.

 

Doesn't matter how high gas prices rise. There will NEVER be another 3 Av El. Besides that, SAS will be online in a few years....... Hopefully.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The point I was trying to make about the Bay Ridge ROW is that if it were to be used for any type of passenger service it would have to be RAILROAD equipment sharing the tracks with freight. The LIRR doesn't want to even service the line as is, hence, New York and Atlantic handling the freight aspect. I believe that it's illegal to have SUBWAY equipment operating alongside freight equipment. If anything, the LIRR has shed passenger stations within the city limits in the last half century. They believe intra-city service is NYCTA's problem.

Subway/light rail equipment can run alongside freight/mainline RR. Just not on the same tracks and there needs to be a fair amount of space between the subway/LRT and mainline tracks. It's done extensively in Boston and Washington.

 

As for LIRR believing that intra-city service is NYCTA's problem, that's fine. LIRR is busy enough as it is. What's not fine is that the MTA, as both LIRR and NYCTA's parent agency, and NYCTA itself, are doing a lousy job of addressing how to better improve subway/rail service within the city to accommodate its growing population, especially in the outer boroughs. That has to be done. We can't have a city of 9 million people getting around on the same exact subway and rail infrastructure we had 40 years ago without something going terribly wrong.

[Vistausss]

So you mean that they're doing a louse job on building ESA which provides additional service to Manhattan and to NYC's biggest station?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Yes I do. ESA will benefit Long Island commuters bound for east Midtown Manhattan and, to a lesser extent, Wall Street (via the and trains). It will not benefit commuters in the Bronx, Brooklyn or Staten Island and it will only benefit commuters in Queens who are close to an LIRR station in the borough who can afford high LIRR ticket prices. That's not a hell of a lot of people. It's also a group of people the LIRR doesn't really care about serving. It's already been repeatedly stated on this and other forums that LIRR believes residents of "the boroughs" are "NYCTA's problem."

[Vistausss]

You can shovel this to Brooklyn and the Bronx, but you made the point refering to the LIRR, so that's why I jumped in with the LIRR.

Of course I understand LIRR. Their main purpose is: surving LI, both to and from the city. It would be far beyond there costs to build a railroad to the Bronx. And Brooklyn is also a high option as Brooklyn doesn't allow diesel trains to be used, so they have to electrify it too which makes it even more expensive. Money they don't have. The only thing of what you mentioned that I could see happening is a LIRR-line to SI. LI and SI are pretty close when it comes to distance, so that would be easy and not too expensive to do (apart from building a new RR bridge).

But why would ESA not benefit the Bronx? When LIRR rushes into GC, the transfer to the IRT is a lot easier and faster than the way it is now, so it could definetly boost the ridership (not gigantic, but noticable. And high ticket prices? Well, compared to the subway, alright. But it's not cheaper than here in The Netherlands, so I don't really have a view on that. In weekends LIRR is cheap with the City Ticket.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

You can shovel this to Brooklyn and the Bronx,

I beg your pardon?

 

but you made the point refering to the LIRR, so that's why I jumped in with the LIRR. Of course I understand LIRR. Their main purpose is: surving LI, both to and from the city. It would be far beyond there costs to build a railroad to the Bronx.

I did not suggest doing this. I don't know where you got that from reading my post (if you did).

 

And Brooklyn is also a high option as Brooklyn doesn't allow diesel trains to be used, so they have to electrify it too which makes it even more expensive. Money they don't have.

What are you talking about here? Diesel trains already run in Brooklyn. The freight trains that use the Bay Ridge branch run behind diesel engines. And I didn't say anything about electrifying any railroad route in Brooklyn, so again, I don't know where you got that from reading my post (if you did).

 

The only thing of what you mentioned that I could see happening is a LIRR-line to SI. LI and SI are pretty close when it comes to distance, so that would be easy and not too expensive to do (apart from building a new RR bridge).

I mentioned nothing, I repeat, NOTHING, about extending LIRR. All I mentioned about LIRR is that it's expensive and that they are NOT interested in serving intra-city commuters.

 

But why would ESA not benefit the Bronx? When LIRR rushes into GC, the transfer to the IRT is a lot easier and faster than the way it is now, so it could definetly boost the ridership (not gigantic, but noticable. And high ticket prices? Well, compared to the subway, alright. But it's not cheaper than here in The Netherlands, so I don't really have a view on that. In weekends LIRR is cheap with the City Ticket.

The Lexington Ave IRT is crowded enough as it is. It will only get more crowded with ESA riders bound for Lower Manhattan. Therefore, it will NOT benefit the Bronx! Since the LIRR doesn't operate to Grand Central yet, you have absolutely NO IDEA how much faster or easier it it than "the way it is now". By that, I assume you mean Penn Station. That transfer is actually quite easy.

 

Let me close by saying ESA is not going to solve intra-city commuting issues. It is only going to benefit Long Island residents (who are not residents of the City of New York) and LIRR, the agency that will run the trains that use the ESA tunnel, doesn't care about city residents. Therefore, it has nothing to do with solving the commuting issues of city residents and, thus, it is not relevant to this discussion.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Oh, and as for an LIRR line to Staten Island, well, that would really be of limited usefulness to SI'ers. Why? Because in order to get to Manhattan, downtown Brooklyn, or even Long Island City, Queens, such a route would have to take "the long way" through most of Brooklyn, before it can turn west to head downtown. A more direct route would require extensive and expensive tunneling under Brooklyn streets. That's money they don't have. It would be much cheaper and FAR more practical to tunnel under New York Bay from St. George to Bay Ridge and connect that tunnel to the 4th Avenue Express tracks at 59th Street. And that service would be WAY more popular, because it would offer a relatively fast run through Brooklyn (unlike an LIRR service on the Bay Ridge Branch) and would directly serve Manhattan and possibly downtown Brooklyn (also unlike an LIRR service on the Bay Ridge Branch).

[Vistausss]

Eh, why is it not fast to have an Express train running from St George to Jamaica and then into Penn? That seems quite fast to me as it is express so it makes almost no stops.

 

But why do you ask what I was answering at in your previous comment? You said:

"It's also a group of people the LIRR doesn't really care about serving. It's already been repeatedly stated on this and other forums that LIRR believes residents of "the boroughs" are "NYCTA's problem.""

That is what I was answering to and part of what I said was my opinion on LIRR's view.

[Roadcruiser1]

How about the people that need to get off at stations, and plus once again that section is owned by Amtrak, and CSX, and is among one the most busy areas of the Northeast Corridor. They would not allow other trains if it interrupts their traffic.

[MTARegional Bus]

The problem with that is if they saved 3rd el they would have to upgrade the structure for the new rolling stock at the time ,the old rolling stock were getting older and were lighter then there subway counterparts, the structure wouldn't survived against R142 if it was still there today. there would have been big cracks around the support beams.

[Trainmaster5]

(

How about the people that need to get off at stations, and plus once again that section is owned by Amtrak, and CSX, and is among one the most busy areas of the Northeast Corridor. They would not allow other trains if it interrupts their traffic.

 

Last time I looked the Bay Ridge ROW was owned by the LIRR from the west end to Fresh Pond yard and beyond. Amtrak has nothing to do with the branch.

[Vistausss]

Indeed. It's owned by LIRR and LIRR only.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Ridge_Branch

"The Bay Ridge Branch is a rail line owned by the Long Island Rail Road and operated by the New York and Atlantic Railway in the U.S. State of New York. It is the longest freight-only line of the LIRR, connecting the Montauk Branch and CSX Transportation's Fremont Secondary (to the Hell Gate Bridge) at Glendale with the Upper New York Bay at Bay Ridge."

 

http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/bayridge/bayridge.htm

"Long Island RR purchased the Bay Ridge Branch back from Conrail in 1984, and started interchange with the New York Cross Harbor Railroad (NYCHRR), the successor to New York Dock.

Just this past year and a half, NYA has done an EXTENSIVE track rehab program for the Bay Ridge Branch. "

[Roadcruiser1]

If you think you are so smart then what is CSX?. It is mentioned in what you posted.

[Vistausss]

If you think you are so smart then what is CSX?. It is mentioned in what you posted.

 

It says that LIRR Bay Ridge CONNECTS to CSX. That's different from CSX owning the Bay Ridge. Apperantly, you're the one who can't read 'cause the first sentence clearly states that LIRR owns the branch and the second source also says that LIRR bought it back from Conrail, so yeah, it's from LIRR and LIRR only.

[Roadcruiser1]

So it still doesn't matter. Not much people would vouch to pay for the high LIRR fares, LIRR won't serve New York, and Staten Islanders don't want a two seat ride to Manhattan. They want a one seat ride at least to Midtown Manhattan.

[Wallyhorse]

The problem with that is if they saved 3rd el they would have to upgrade the structure for the new rolling stock at the time ,the old rolling stock were getting older and were lighter then there subway counterparts, the structure wouldn't survived against R142 if it was still there today. there would have been big cracks around the support beams.

 

That is true. If that structure had been saved, what would have had to have happened was a total rebuild of the entire 3rd Avenue El during the 1960s and '70s to get it to where it could handle the R-33s and R-36's (then the newest cars of the fleet) and eventually the R-62s during the 1980s, not to mention the R-142s that came along later.

[Vistausss]

So it still doesn't matter. Not much people would vouch to pay for the high LIRR fares, LIRR won't serve New York, and Staten Islanders don't want a two seat ride to Manhattan. They want a one seat ride at least to Midtown Manhattan.

 

I think Staten Islanders would be happy with any type of train service to the city, be it one seat or two seat.

And high fares don't count. Many SI people take the express bus to midtown Manhattan. That's about the price of a LIRR-ticket.

[Roadcruiser1]

Still there isn't that long route that requires several hours of riding. Staten Island is much better with light rail for now. They can have a slow transition to subway service like Brooklyn, and the other boroughs. Before the subway there was light rail to start the transition.

[Vistausss]

It's not that there is a long route that needs to be replaced. We'e talking about MASS transport here, and even better: on a line that's still there and occasionally used. The perfect spot to bring MASS transit to SI.

[Roadcruiser1]

So what?. You haven't consider the factor of money, and why would the LIRR do that?. As explained they consider the connection to Staten Island the NYC Subway's problem not theirs.

[Vistausss]

They would do it for the extra revenue. The line is ready to be used, it only needs some trains. So the revenue will come and when it comes, it could be extended to SI.

[Roadcruiser1]

Why would you even consider it when the subway could be extended there?, and it would be damn well cheaper.