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When will the MTA finally expand staten island local service? It has so much potential..


SIR North Shore

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Think about what you just said, considering that you live there. How could the city save $1.6M by keeping all of the buses, but kicking the 7th and 8th graders off the buses. Does that sound right to you?

 

What the city said was that they MIGHT consider sticking 7th and 8th graders on regular buses if the need is great. The parents want to see that happen, but there is also a liability involved with sticking 7th and 8th graders on buses with younger children. The parents of the younger kids would KILL the DOE if something happened because of the age gap. Middle school is a different world to elementary school. When I was in elementary school, they did their best to shield us from the older kids.

 

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2010/09/school_bus_cuts_causes_to_doe.html

 

The city also thinks they may incur additional costs by changing routes to serve the older kids. Exemptions tend to get out of hand.

 

By law, the school district (in NYC, the Department of Education) is responsible for getting kids to school. So, I agree that the yellow bus service should be provided, even if they have to charge the parents extra. It works for Bronx Science, which has private yellow bus service. The fares are similar to the express buses. However, the city is simply abandoning their responsibility for the purposes of savings. People who don't mind screwing kids over will not hesitate to deprive the parents of services.

 

This leads me to my belief that the express bus system is going to contract substantially between now and 2014. MTA Bus cost NYC $286M in year 1 and will cost $422M this year. The city is trying to toll the East River bridges to take these buses completely off the balance sheet. I believe this is a bad idea because it will allow the city to "cash out" of public transit. When fuel got high last time, traffic plunged on the MTA crossings. It means that the "profit" for transit dropped too. The estimates are that the bridges will bring in $1B of revenue and cost $400M to maintain. However, the estimate does not adequately account for the fact that today's bridges are free. When the bridges fall short, MTA Bus will fall short and the other divisions would have to rescue it.

 

I anticipate that the East River bridge tolls will pass in exchange for payroll tax relief. The bridges will end up paying for Long Island Bus as well. After the bridges are secured, a massive fare hike will go through to bond the capital program. The express buses that are break even will be saved and they will only carry 40-50% of today's traffic. The MTA Bus MCIs get spread out all over. The subway would also break even under those new fares.

 

THIS is why they want congestion pricing so bad. It is a massive new revenue source, but it is also a way to extract additional revenue out of premium real estate. The premise of congestion pricing is to maximize revenue for accessing the center city. After you secure vehicular access, you can charge mass transit users a premium too. It is too tempting to avoid.

 

He does have a point about allowing them on with younger children: Sixth graders still maintained their service, so you have parents complaining that their sixth grader can ride the bus, but the seventh or eighth grader can't (my family will be having the same dilemna next year, but we'll just put our sixth grader on the regular bus to simplify matters)

 

Like I said, there are still savings that can be found by consolidating more school bus routes.

 

Is the service to Bronx High School of Science run by the DOE, because I thought Vallo Transportation stepped in and provided the service without subsidy.

 

I've read this previously. The article also points out the following:

 

"The e-mail - unveiled during the trial over a lawsuit to restore the buses in state Supreme Court in the former home port in Stapleton yesterday - was another in a series of potentially embarrassing internal correspondences among top DOE exposed in the courtroom. Other e-mails revealed DOE officials consider the yellow buses a political favor to the Island, were unclear whether eliminating them would save any money and that they were not sure they would be able to provide all those students with MetroCards to use public transportation.

Ms. Grimm's e-mail directly contradicts the message in a letter the DOE sent to school principals the very next day, which stated that although it was eliminating a blanket variance for Island seventh and eighth graders, parents could apply for individual variances due to hazardous conditions or lack of public transportation. Normally, the DOE only buses students up to sixth grade."

 

 

The issue I have w/this whole thing is they clearly felt that the service was needed due to a lack of transportation on the South Shore, hence why there were providing the service. If they didn't feel that way then they shouldn't have provided the service to begin with. Now suddenly they're taking away the service and not providing alternatives. The article says that they may not be able to provide adequate MetroCards.

 

Quite frankly my issue isn't that these kids should get special treatment because they're from affluent areas of the South Shore. I think it is BS the way the DOE has handled the whole issue. The article shows that the e-mails sent back and forth clearly show that they're not even sure that the cuts will provide a real savings so it is like they are just trying to find any old way to get out of the agreement. If you ask me they should've provided shuttle buses for the kids OR had the Metrocards in place OR the infrastructure in place. If they did those things, there would be no need for the school buses.

 

Or it could've been exactly as they've stated: A political favor.

 

The DOE said that parents could apply for variances if they felt it was necessary. However, even though a lot of parents applied, only something like 4 actually received them, so much of the South Shore doesn't meet the guidelines for providing school bus service.

 

As far as providing MetroCards goes, I don't see what problems they could possibly run into. They type in the address, and if the student is more than 1.5 miles from school, they print out a full-fare MetroCard. I don't see what could go wrong (and to my knowledge, everybody who qualified received their MetroCards)

 

As far as regular school buses being used as shuttle buses, they do that at dismissal times: They provide school trippers so that, if nothing else the school has direct service (though in my brother's school, they put them on Richmond Avenue, which is where the regular S44/S59 buses stop, so they didn't really save the kids much).

 

Basically, the whole South Shore is within 1/2 mile of a bus route, so if the child can't get home on one bus, they can always transfer to a second bus, and they'll be close to home.

 

Yeah, but you still need service to serve Tottenville, etc. Perhaps they could set it up where the (S78) ran as a shuttle in that part to hook up w/other lines, but that would mean so St. George service. My thinking is that the South Shore should have two local bus options just like the North Shore does.

 

North Shore riders have the ferry to a local bus OR the train to the (S53) 24/7. Why shouldn't the South Shore have the same thing?? That's why I think the (S79) should run 24/7. I've seen the last (S79) while waiting for car service on Hylan from the express bus and they are quite full in comparison to the (S78).

 

The S53 only benefits those who live near it. The S53 does nothing for somebody who lives further west, like myself. I have to take the S62 or S46 if I want to get to St. George.

 

What some have suggested is, rather than an S78 shuttle, they could revive overnight S59 service and extend it to Tottenville (or, if the ferry shuttle bus plan goes into effect, some buses could cover the S78 route all the way to Tottenville)

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He does have a point about allowing them on with younger children: Sixth graders still maintained their service, so you have parents complaining that their sixth grader can ride the bus, but the seventh or eighth grader can't (my family will be having the same dilemna next year, but we'll just put our sixth grader on the regular bus to simplify matters)

 

Like I said, there are still savings that can be found by consolidating more school bus routes.

 

Is the service to Bronx High School of Science run by the DOE, because I thought Vallo Transportation stepped in and provided the service without subsidy.

 

 

 

Or it could've been exactly as they've stated: A political favor.

 

The DOE said that parents could apply for variances if they felt it was necessary. However, even though a lot of parents applied, only something like 4 actually received them, so much of the South Shore doesn't meet the guidelines for providing school bus service.

 

As far as providing MetroCards goes, I don't see what problems they could possibly run into. They type in the address, and if the student is more than 1.5 miles from school, they print out a full-fare MetroCard. I don't see what could go wrong (and to my knowledge, everybody who qualified received their MetroCards)

 

As far as regular school buses being used as shuttle buses, they do that at dismissal times: They provide school trippers so that, if nothing else the school has direct service (though in my brother's school, they put them on Richmond Avenue, which is where the regular S44/S59 buses stop, so they didn't really save the kids much).

 

Basically, the whole South Shore is within 1/2 mile of a bus route, so if the child can't get home on one bus, they can always transfer to a second bus, and they'll be close to home.

 

 

 

The S53 only benefits those who live near it. The S53 does nothing for somebody who lives further west, like myself. I have to take the S62 or S46 if I want to get to St. George.

 

What some have suggested is, rather than an S78 shuttle, they could revive overnight S59 service and extend it to Tottenville (or, if the ferry shuttle bus plan goes into effect, some buses could cover the S78 route all the way to Tottenville)

 

 

You say transfer like that's so easy here on Staten Island. Transferring is a nightmare on the North Shore with nothing running in sink, so I can't imagine how atrocious it is on the South Shore when they have limited service as it is, but yes, of course they could. The question is how much longer is their commute now as a result of this school bus dilemma?

 

As far as the (S53) goes, there are plenty of people who benefit from the (S53) and use the (S62) and the (S46) like you do, so I don't know where you're getting that from. Perhaps you don't realize how many people use the (S53) to get to and from Brooklyn. The bus has decent frequencies (although they could better at certain times based on how packed most of the buses are), but it is a very important bus that serves many different arteries. It provides North-South access, provides transfers for East-West local bus riders and connects both of the main express bus routes on Staten Island (X1 and X10). It is a very unique and useful bus indeed.

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Remember, we're talking about overnight service. I'm not waiting 40 minutes to transfer to the S53 and have to pay an extra $2.25 for doing so.

 

The S53 is only useful (to me, anyway) when traveling to/from Bay Ridge. Going to Brooklyn requires 2 fares if you want to transfer to the (R), but going back, at least there is a double transfer (at least to the S61/S62)

 

As far as the kids transferring, most of the kids are along one bus route.

 

I.S 34 takes in a lot of children from Rossville, which is served by the S74.

I.S 7 takes in children from Woodrow and Arden Heights, and is served by the S56

I.S 75 takes in children from Princes' Bay, and is served by the S55, S56, and S78

I.S.24 takes in children from Great Kills, and is served by the S54, S78, and S79.

 

So basically, only a minority of students will end up having to transfer in the South Shore.

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Remember, we're talking about overnight service. I'm not waiting 40 minutes to transfer to the S53 and have to pay an extra $2.25 for doing so.

 

The S53 is only useful (to me, anyway) when traveling to/from Bay Ridge. Going to Brooklyn requires 2 fares if you want to transfer to the (R), but going back, at least there is a double transfer (at least to the S61/S62)

 

As far as the kids transferring, most of the kids are along one bus route (I.S 34 in Tottenville takes kids from Rossville, which is along the S74 route, which is one bus route).

 

Yeah, well the (S53) has damn good service overnight and plenty of people transfer late at night to the (S62), which apparently likes to run early and pisses off a lot of the riders. I've taken the X1 very late at night and have taken the (S53) and have had to wait maybe 10 minutes or so to transfer (which is how long it would take to wait for a cab) and was home in 15 minutes, which is about how long it would take w/car service since we go the exact same way that the bus goes. The only difference is that I get dropped in front of the house as opposed to having to walk from the bus stop a few minutes and of course the $13.00 w/tip saved from Hylan Blvd. :cool:

 

But if you're coming from Brooklyn (i.e. Bay Ridge) that's the best way to go unless you're that cheap that you'd make a million transfers to avoid an additional $2.25 at that hour, which I wouldn't be surprised if you did do that. :( LOL

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The S62 runs at 60 minute headways, and the S53 runs at 40 minute headways. Since 40 isn't a multiple of 60, that means that there are going to be buses that miss the transfer by a few minutes, which is going to really piss off anybody trying to make that transfer.

 

It is useful coming from Brooklyn, or within Staten Island, but not from Manhattan.

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The S62 runs at 60 minute headways, and the S53 runs at 40 minute headways. Since 40 isn't a multiple of 60, that means that there are going to be buses that miss the transfer by a few minutes, which is going to really piss off anybody trying to make that transfer.

 

It is useful coming from Brooklyn, or within Staten Island, but not from Manhattan.

 

Of course, but who would do that coming from Manhattan anyway via the ferry at least?? :( They would have to be complete morons to do so. Also, I know the frequencies of both buses. All of the buses that meet w/the ferry for the most part have the same frequencies late at night. Same thing with the (S48).

 

Now I have used the (S62) to the (S53), but that was after having made a stop after having taken the X10 or X12.

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But that is my point: You can't access Manhattan on the S53, unless you live along the route itself.

 

You said that the S79 should run to give people on the South Shore 2 options, like we have on the North Shore, and my response was that the S53 isn't a second option unless you actually live near it.

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But that is my point: You can't access Manhattan on the S53, unless you live along the route itself.

 

You said that the S79 should run to give people on the South Shore 2 options, like we have on the North Shore, and my response was that the S53 isn't a second option unless you actually live near it.

 

Yeah it is... You just have to transfer. Just because it may cause an extra transfer doesn't mean that people can't or won't use it. They certainly do use it, so that's a moot point. Also, where do the (S79) and (S53) rank in terms of ridership on Staten Island??

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You have to transfer on 40 minute headways. That's what makes it unattractive.

 

During the day, it is an option, but at night, it isn't, unless you live near it.

 

So, like I said, the S53 isn't an option for those of us who live west of it: If we want to get to Manhattan at night, we have to take a bus to St. George and take the ferry.

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You have to transfer on 40 minute headways. That's what makes it unattractive.

 

During the day, it is an option, but at night, it isn't, unless you live near it.

 

So, like I said, the S53 isn't an option for those of us who live west of it: If we want to get to Manhattan at night, we have to take a bus to St. George and take the ferry.

 

Are we reading the same thing??? I already said in an earlier post that no one would do that. The point is there are folks that NEED service to Brooklyn for the obvious reasons.

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But I was disputing the idea that it was a second option. You're right that there are people who would want to go to Brooklyn, who could use the direct service.

 

Yeah, it is a second option. If the ferry broke down or something, which does happen, you'd be stuck waiting for another hour. In that case it would be great to have that backup option.

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About the S63/S93, I think that would be a great service expansion for Staten Island and more specifically for the CSI college students heading to/from Brooklyn. It should run weekdays-only like the S76/S86.

 

On weekdays at 86th/4th, there would be the S53 (for the North Shore), S63 (for Mid-Island via Victory Bl), and S79 (for the South Shore). Rush hours there's also the S83 and S93 Limiteds and on weekends, only the S53, S79 and S83.

 

It goes without saying that one of the busiest transfer points on the S53 is at Victory Blvd & Clove Road for the Victory Blvd buses. The S63/S93 would save thousands of riders a transfer or two depending on where they're coming from and also a quicker ride to Victory Blvd by using the SIE service road instead of the South Beach grand tour route the S53 takes.

 

The S63 would also be filling in the service gap left open by the cut S67 route.

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About the S63/S93, I think that would be a great service expansion for Staten Island and more specifically for the CSI college students heading to/from Brooklyn. It should run weekdays-only like the S76/S86.

 

On weekdays at 86th/4th, there would be the S53 (for the North Shore), S63 (for Mid-Island via Victory Bl), and S79 (for the South Shore). Rush hours there's also the S83 and S93 Limiteds and on weekends, only the S53, S79 and S83.

 

It goes without saying that one of the busiest transfer points on the S53 is at Victory Blvd & Clove Road for the Victory Blvd buses. The S63/S93 would save thousands of riders a transfer or two depending on where they're coming from and also a quicker ride to Victory Blvd by using the SIE service road instead of the South Beach grand tour route the S53 takes.

 

The S63 would also be filling in the service gap left open by the cut S67 route.

 

The only way to fill in the service gap caused by the elimination of the S67 (they still have service, but they now have to transfer) is to run along Watchogue Road, but that would bypass CSI.

 

Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have 2 services (though, of course, it would cost extra money):

 

An S63 running from South Avenue/Goethals Road North to Bay Ridge, via the SIE service road, Richmond Avenue, Deppe Place/Watchogue Road, Victory Blvd, and Clove Road (bypassing Grasmere).

 

The S93 extended to Richmond Avenue.

 

I just think a local and a limited serving the whole Victory Blvd corridor is a bad idea.

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The only way to fill in the service gap caused by the elimination of the S67 (they still have service, but they now have to transfer) is to run along Watchogue Road, but that would bypass CSI.

 

Actually, it wouldn't be a bad idea to have 2 services (though, of course, it would cost extra money):

 

An S63 running from South Avenue/Goethals Road North to Bay Ridge, via the SIE service road, Richmond Avenue, Deppe Place/Watchogue Road, Victory Blvd, and Clove Road (bypassing Grasmere).

 

The S93 extended to Richmond Avenue.

 

I just think a local and a limited serving the whole Victory Blvd corridor is a bad idea.

 

And that is the plan that should be implemented! That area around CSI is a major traffic chokepoint and using Watchogue Rd and Deppe Pl to bypass it is the best idea I've seen yet for the "S63" routing. They would have to cut some S62 service but it would be very worthwhile. Currently, there is no easy way to cut across the Island by bus the way the S63 would unless you endure the long S53 ride first. Another idea I have is for the S61 to become limited only on Victory Blvd like it is now during rush hours to cut costs down and have a similar set-up like the Bx1/Bx2.

 

So weekday Victory Blvd services would become:

 

S62 - Travis to St George, no less than every 15 minutes.

S63 - Mariner's Harbor to Brooklyn, every 12-15 minutes.

S66 - Port Richmond to St George, every 30 minutes.

 

S91 - SI Mall Limited weekdays, S61 local on weekends.

S92 - Travis to St George, rush hours.

S93 - Bull's Head to Brooklyn, weekdays-only.

 

It seems like a lot but this plan would have the same amount of buses per hour on Victory before the 2010 service cuts, except the S63 would run all day unlike the S67.

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And that is the plan that should be implemented! That area around CSI is a major traffic chokepoint and using Watchogue Rd and Deppe Pl to bypass it is the best idea I've seen yet for the "S63" routing. They would have to cut some S62 service but it would be very worthwhile. Currently, there is no easy way to cut across the Island by bus the way the S63 would unless you endure the long S53 ride first. Another idea I have is for the S61 to become limited only on Victory Blvd like it is now during rush hours to cut costs down and have a similar set-up like the Bx1/Bx2.

 

So weekday Victory Blvd services would become:

 

S62 - Travis to St George, no less than every 15 minutes.

S63 - Mariner's Harbor to Brooklyn, every 12-15 minutes.

S66 - Port Richmond to St George, every 30 minutes.

 

S91 - SI Mall Limited weekdays, S61 local on weekends.

S92 - Travis to St George, rush hours.

S93 - Bull's Head to Brooklyn, weekdays-only.

 

It seems like a lot but this plan would have the same amount of buses per hour on Victory before the 2010 service cuts, except the S63 would run all day unlike the S67.

 

I don't think the same number of buses should be running along that stretch of Victory Blvd: The whole point of eliminating the S67 was to save money (and it didn't really get high ridership in that area).

 

I was thinking the following:

S62: Travis-St. George every 15 minutes rush hour, 20 minutes off-peak, 30 minutes weekends

S63: Mariners' Harbor-Bay Ridge every 15 minutes rush hour and 30 minutes off-peak (including weekends)

S66: Port Richmond-St. George every 30 minutes

 

S91: SI Mall-St. George every 15 minutes weekdays and Saturdays. Sundays, replaced with S61 service

S92: Eliminated

S93: Bulls Head-Bay Ridge every 15 minutes rush hours and 30 minutes off-peak and Saturdays

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I don't think the same number of buses should be running along that stretch of Victory Blvd: The whole point of eliminating the S67 was to save money (and it didn't really get high ridership in that area).

 

I was thinking the following:

S62: Travis-St. George every 15 minutes rush hour, 20 minutes off-peak, 30 minutes weekends

S63: Mariners' Harbor-Bay Ridge every 15 minutes rush hour and 30 minutes off-peak (including weekends)

S66: Port Richmond-St. George every 30 minutes

 

S91: SI Mall-St. George every 15 minutes weekdays and Saturdays. Sundays, replaced with S61 service

S92: Eliminated

S93: Bulls Head-Bay Ridge every 15 minutes rush hours and 30 minutes off-peak and Saturdays

 

That's way too little service! 20 minute headways for a line to St. George is asking for trouble, the S62 used to run like that but because ridership grew the headways are every 10-15 minutes now where it needs to be. And the S63 would have to run every 12-15 minutes all day as it's running to a subway line and not the ferry.

 

And what about those people who live in Travis and have to head to & from St. George during rush hours? The limited routes out of St. George aren't necessarily meant to be faster than the locals because they're not! They just spread out ridership and give those who live further out a quicker ride.

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That's way too little service! 20 minute headways for a line to St. George is asking for trouble, the S62 used to run like that but because ridership grew the headways are every 10-15 minutes now where it needs to be. And the S63 would have to run every 12-15 minutes all day as it's running to a subway line and not the ferry.

 

And what about those people who live in Travis and have to head to & from St. George during rush hours? The limited routes out of St. George aren't necessarily meant to be faster than the locals because they're not! They just spread out ridership and give those who live further out a quicker ride.

 

The S62 really doesn't get that much ridership (and, since I live closer to it, I should know). You're not going to get crushloaded buses if headways are reduced to every 20 minutes (and, if anything the S91 will attract passengers, being a limited, and the S63 might attract people going to/from Brooklyn who would otherwise take the S62 to the S53),

 

If the CSI-St. George shuttle were cancelled, and all of the riders took the S62, I would say more frequent service is necessary.

 

By the way, what did you use to make that map? I tried making a map using Paint, but it didn't come out well (also, I intended for the S63 to be rerouted along Goethals Road North/Fahy Avenue, rather than along Forest Avenue, since it would better fill the gap in east-west service)

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This is how the SI Bus Map should look:

 

b838r.png

 

Okay, what happened to the S61?

 

In addition what is the purpose of sending the S93 Limited to Richmond Avenue? The S93 is a CSI route, and during rush hours trying to get from anywhere between Gannon Avenue and Richmond Avenue is hell on Earth. In addition, where will the S93 layover at Richmond/Victory?

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The S61 was replaced by S91 service running throughout the day (riders can use the S62 and S66 as local buses).

 

And, if the layover is long enough, traffic shouldn't be too much of an issue. While it is bad (between the traffic coming from Richmond Avenue southbound, and the traffic coming of the MLK Expressway, it can be a mess), the distance isn't too long, meaning the buses can catch up to the schedule later on Victory Blvd.

 

And, as if said before, there is a street one block (Clifton Street) south of Victory Blvd where the S93 can layover.

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The S62 really doesn't get that much ridership (and, since I live closer to it, I should know). You're not going to get crushloaded buses if headways are reduced to every 20 minutes (and, if anything the S91 will attract passengers, being a limited, and the S63 might attract people going to/from Brooklyn who would otherwise take the S62 to the S53),

 

If the CSI-St. George shuttle were cancelled, and all of the riders took the S62, I would say more frequent service is necessary.

 

By the way, what did you use to make that map? I tried making a map using Paint, but it didn't come out well (also, I intended for the S63 to be rerouted along Goethals Road North/Fahy Avenue, rather than along Forest Avenue, since it would better fill the gap in east-west service)

 

That's true, the S62 probably would see less riders. And I actually used Paint myself too. I never thought about service heading that way because there's no over or underpass between Richmond Av & South Av, how would that work out?

 

About the S61, it would be replaced by the S91 on weekdays. The S91 runs limited on Victory Blvd and local on the rest of the route.

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That's true, the S62 probably would see less riders. And I actually used Paint myself too. I never thought about service heading that way because there's no over or underpass between Richmond Av & South Av, how would that work out?

 

About the S61, it would be replaced by the S91 on weekdays. The S91 runs limited on Victory Blvd and local on the rest of the route.

 

Easy.

 

Westbound: Victory Blvd->Richmond Avenue->Goethals Road North->South Avenue

 

Eastbound: South Avenue->Fahy Avenue->Lamberts Lane->Richmond Avenue->Victory Blvd (it could go straight down Christopher Lane rather than using Richmond Avenue, but it wouldn't serve as many passengers)

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