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BrooklynBus

How the MTA is wasting money that could be used to improve bus service

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The (MTA) has been using a completely outdated method to gage the need for services and that whole area of Knapp St. could use service since the (B36) only goes up Nostrand Avenue, not to mention that extending the (B4) would increase ridership in that area and take pressure off of the (B36). I also agree that Sheepshead Bay needs to speak up about reinstating the (B4) at all times to Sheepshead Bay. No bus service means less potential business for all of the areas down on Emmons Avenue and Knapp St. It is a loss for everyone.

 

I also think that the (MTA) has been rather lazy in proposing new bus routes to serve areas that could use them. They have done nothing but look to cut in areas that they shouldn't be and not cutting in areas that they should be.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8

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You know, the biggest lie, they ((MTA)) told was, "We're cutting service where too many people won't be affected" or something along those lines

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You know, the biggest lie, they ((MTA)) told was, "We're cutting service where too many people won't be affected" or something along those lines

 

A friend of mine who lives on Prospect Park South and 11th Avenue just complained to me that without the B69, she has no way to get to the Brooklyn Museum. When it was discontinued, the MTA said everyone could just use the B67 on 7th Avenue. Do they think anyone will walk from 11th Avenue to 7th Avenue? You can't even take the B68 and transfer to the B67 because then you have along walk at the other end.

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A friend of mine who lives on Prospect Park South and 11th Avenue just complained to me that without the B69, she has no way to get to the Brooklyn Museum. When it was discontinued, the MTA said everyone could just use the B67 on 7th Avenue. Do they think anyone will walk from 11th Avenue to 7th Avenue? You can't even take the B68 and transfer to the B67 because then you have along walk at the other end.

 

It's only to get to the Museum, which you only would probably need to do once or twice. What you just described, walking 4 avenue blocks then having a long walk at the other end pretty much describes mine and the other former-X90 riders' commute every single day.

 

But yeah, the MTA is always wasting money and everyday I see near empty buses running frequently on many lines that don't need that much service. There are some buses that provide a direct connection between two neighborhoods or places, but there is almost no demand for them.

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You know, the biggest lie, they ((MTA)) told was, "We're cutting service where too many people won't be affected" or something along those lines

outside of the duplicative BS, that's another thing that irked me during those June cuts... glad you brought it up...

 

Their thought process goes something along the lines of *too many riders* is a subjective term & can't be questioned, so therefore, we're not incorrect in our justification of cutting this portion of the route....

 

Hell, going w/ the basis behind that grand idiocy....

It doesn't mean you're anymore correct either.... it's on some hit or miss nonsense; in other words:

 

- it was justified w/ the truncation w/ the B3

- it wasn't justified w/ the truncation of the B4

 

 

A friend of mine who lives on Prospect Park South and 11th Avenue just complained to me that without the B69, she has no way to get to the Brooklyn Museum. When it was discontinued, the MTA said everyone could just use the B67 on 7th Avenue. Do they think anyone will walk from 11th Avenue to 7th Avenue? You can't even take the B68 and transfer to the B67 because then you have along walk at the other end.

 

you ever notice that the MTA, if ever, suggests taking 2 modes of transportation as an alternate, after cuts have been made... it's always boggled down to one route...

 

case in point, as in the case of your friend here... even if she took the 67, she would have to walk from Flatbush/7th... all the way to the museum....

 

I'd like to have some of what they're smokin...

Edited by B35 via Church

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It's only to get to the Museum, which you only would probably need to do once or twice. What you just described, walking 4 avenue blocks then having a long walk at the other end pretty much describes mine and the other former-X90 riders' commute every single day.

 

But yeah, the MTA is always wasting money and everyday I see near empty buses running frequently on many lines that don't need that much service. There are some buses that provide a direct connection between two neighborhoods or places, but there is almost no demand for them.

 

especially in manhattan M20 anyone!!!

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outside of the duplicative BS, that's another thing that irked me during those June cuts... glad you brought it up...

 

Their thought process goes something along the lines of *too many riders* is a subjective term & can't be questioned, so therefore, we're not incorrect in our justification of cutting this portion of the route....

 

Hell, going w/ the basis behind that grand idiocy....

It doesn't mean you're anymore correct either.... it's on some hit or miss nonsense; in other words:

 

- it was justified w/ the truncation w/ the B3

- it wasn't justified w/ the truncation of the B4

 

 

 

 

you ever notice that the MTA, if ever, suggests taking 2 modes of transportation as an alternate, after cuts have been made... it's always boggled down to one route...

 

case in point, as in the case of your friend here... even if she took the 67, she would have to walk from Flatbush/7th... all the way to the museum....

 

I'd like to have some of what they're smokin...

 

I saw 30 plus ppl waiting for the B4 on the weekend after they cut service!!!!! low ridership my ASS!!!! The only thing going for them is they are NOT SEPTA!!!!!

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especially in manhattan M20 anyone!!!

 

NO WAY YOU READ MY MIND!!!!!!!! I meant to originally post it but since I only see them in Battery Park City I wasn't sure if it was more heavily used on other parts of the route. It runs parallel to the (1), which is much faster. If Battery Park City really needs service they could eliminate it and extend the M22 along its route.

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outside of the duplicative BS, that's another thing that irked me during those June cuts... glad you brought it up...

 

Their thought process goes something along the lines of *too many riders* is a subjective term & can't be questioned, so therefore, we're not incorrect in our justification of cutting this portion of the route....

 

Hell, going w/ the basis behind that grand idiocy....

It doesn't mean you're anymore correct either.... it's on some hit or miss nonsense; in other words:

 

- it was justified w/ the truncation w/ the B3

- it wasn't justified w/ the truncation of the B4

 

you ever notice that the MTA, if ever, suggests taking 2 modes of transportation as an alternate, after cuts have been made... it's always boggled down to one route...

 

case in point, as in the case of your friend here... even if she took the 67, she would have to walk from Flatbush/7th... all the way to the museum....

 

I'd like to have some of what they're smokin...

 

Just wanted to say that although we have our differences some times, I really respect your wide knowledge of the system (all boroughs) especially as it pertains to people's travel patterns. You also have a good understanding on MTA decision making. If the people at Operations Planning had one tenth the knowledge that you have, we'd be in good shape. Wish you could get a job there somehow. The thing is they wouldn't hire anyone who knows too much. They look for people with mediocre knowledge who who will do as told and not think for themselves. That is part of the problem.

 

I just want to make one specific comment on one of your points. Although you may be correct that the eliminated portion of the B3 may not have been necessary according to pure numbers, you have to remember that that is the reason they have service guidelines, to keep minimum routes and minimum service levels in case people have no alternatives and would have to walk too far to a bus. The problem with the MTA is that whenever they use these guidelines it is only as justification to cut routes, never to add routes, and in this last round of cuts, they just distorted the data or ignored minimum walking guidelines to make further cuts such as the B3 and B4. The guideline calls for striving to have a maximum of a quarter-mile walk to a bus stop. Over the years, they started to interpret this as a quarter-mile to a bus route with wider bus stop spacing. In the case of the B4 to meet this standard, they measured the distance to the B36 (their proposed alternative) as the crow flies, ignoring that you can't walk diagonally or can only cross the Belt Parkway at specific points. The actual walk to the B36 is one-half mile in many cases plus you would have to transfer a second time and pay an extra fare which they also ignored. It is a widely accepted planning fact that most people will not walk more than a quarter mile to access a bus or one half mile to access a subway, so it is not reasonable to expect someone to walk a half mile to a bus. If that is how you are going to plan, you have estimate loss of revenue which they don't do either. They only considered loss of revenue when night time service was discontinued, but at that time the ridership is virtually negligible anyway ( 10 or fewer persons per route per trip?) so it really doesn't matter. But when you are talking about losing more than 1,000 riders, you are talking real money.

 

Their constant lying and distortions and just plain sloppiness is what irks me most. When they eliminated the B40, the tables they presented weren't even consistent. In one table a customer was someone who made a one-way trip and in another table it was someone who made a round trip, so when they compared the two tables they were comparing apples and oranges. When you bring that type of stuff to their attention, they just ignore you.

 

They were so embarrassed by my testimony at the service cut hearings, because I had all the facts, that they omitted 1 1/4 hours of the video testimony from their web coverage, so as to exclude my testimony. At first I thought it was just some type of glitch so I sent them an e-mail to bring it to their attention. They responded that they will fix it if they get the time. They never fixed it. Now how much effort would that have taken? Just proves it was no glitch but intentional.

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But yeah, the MTA is always wasting money and everyday I see near empty buses running frequently on many lines that don't need that much service. There are some buses that provide a direct connection between two neighborhoods or places, but there is almost no demand for them.

 

That's because a lot of the routes are just outdated and the MTA just doesn't care about making travel easier. I wish we could get the general public, politicians, the media, and the MTA to understand this. Everyone thinks the only way you can improve buses is to make them go faster with exclusive lanes and SBS. No one recognizes that routes and service levels, either too much or to little, are the major problems. SBS will never be implemented on more than a handful of routes. It is not a panacea like the MTA would like you to believe. Years ago when someone complained about bus bunching, rather than address the problem, the MTA would respond that one day all routes will have GPS and we will know where they all are and will be able to keep them from bunching. They don't say that anymore. Now GPS will only tell you when the bus will come. Their answer to bus bunching is that they are not responsible for traffic and SBS will make buses more reliable as if every route will be SBS someday.

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Just wanted to say that although we have our differences some times, I really respect your wide knowledge of the system (all boroughs) especially as it pertains to people's travel patterns. You also have a good understanding on MTA decision making. If the people at Operations Planning had one tenth the knowledge that you have, we'd be in good shape. Wish you could get a job there somehow. The thing is they wouldn't hire anyone who knows too much. They look for people with mediocre knowledge who who will do as told and not think for themselves. That is part of the problem.

 

I just want to make one specific comment on one of your points. Although you may be correct that the eliminated portion of the B3 may not have been necessary according to pure numbers, you have to remember that that is the reason they have service guidelines, to keep minimum routes and minimum service levels in case people have no alternatives and would have to walk too far to a bus. The problem with the MTA is that whenever they use these guidelines it is only as justification to cut routes, never to add routes, and in this last round of cuts, they just distorted the data or ignored minimum walking guidelines to make further cuts such as the B3 and B4. The guideline calls for striving to have a maximum of a quarter-mile walk to a bus stop. Over the years, they started to interpret this as a quarter-mile to a bus route with wider bus stop spacing. In the case of the B4 to meet this standard, they measured the distance to the B36 (their proposed alternative) as the crow flies, ignoring that you can't walk diagonally or can only cross the Belt Parkway at specific points. The actual walk to the B36 is one-half mile in many cases plus you would have to transfer a second time and pay an extra fare which they also ignored. It is a widely accepted planning fact that most people will not walk more than a quarter mile to access a bus or one half mile to access a subway, so it is not reasonable to expect someone to walk a half mile to a bus. If that is how you are going to plan, you have estimate loss of revenue which they don't do either. They only considered loss of revenue when night time service was discontinued, but at that time the ridership is virtually negligible anyway ( 10 or fewer persons per route per trip?) so it really doesn't matter. But when you are talking about losing more than 1,000 riders, you are talking real money.

 

Their constant lying and distortions and just plain sloppiness is what irks me most. When they eliminated the B40, the tables they presented weren't even consistent. In one table a customer was someone who made a one-way trip and in another table it was someone who made a round trip, so when they compared the two tables they were comparing apples and oranges. When you bring that type of stuff to their attention, they just ignore you.

 

They were so embarrassed by my testimony at the service cut hearings, because I had all the facts, that they omitted 1 1/4 hours of the video testimony from their web coverage, so as to exclude my testimony. At first I thought it was just some type of glitch so I sent them an e-mail to bring it to their attention. They responded that they will fix it if they get the time. They never fixed it. Now how much effort would that have taken? Just proves it was no glitch but intentional.

 

EXCELLENT POST MY FRIEND!!! You see I've always argued that the (MTA) likes to distort their figures to suit their needs. Now some folks checkmate and Amtrak7 swear up and down by the (MTA) figures and figures in general and like I said before you cannot trust everything that the (MTA) puts out. I even doubt most of their "cost per passenger" figures. When I spoke at the hearing about how they helped to destroy the X16 by not having buses sent as scheduled and how that obviously would FORCE people onto other express bus lines, I could tell that they were pissed, but I didn't care. The truth had to be said and I wasn't going to let them get away with trying to justify the cuts as simply because ridership declined so drastically when the majority of the X16s that I was on were filled.

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EXCELLENT POST MY FRIEND!!! You see I've always argued that the (MTA) likes to distort their figures to suit their needs. Now some folks checkmate and Amtrak7 swear up and down by the (MTA) figures and figures in general and like I said before you cannot trust everything that the (MTA) puts out. I even doubt most of their "cost per passenger" figures. When I spoke at the hearing about how they helped to destroy the X16 by not having buses sent as scheduled and how that obviously would FORCE people onto other express bus lines, I could tell that they were pissed, but I didn't care. The truth had to be said and I wasn't going to let them get away with trying to justify the cuts as simply because ridership declined so drastically when the majority of the X16s that I was on were filled.

 

 

 

The (MTA) is so politically influenced it would make people blush.:eek:

Thus the agency could use an overhaul. Not sure of the solutions but unless NYC City Hall and Albany starts anew, things will never get better.

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The (MTA) is so politically influenced it would make people blush.:eek:

Thus the agency could use an overhaul. Not sure of the solutions but unless NYC City Hall and Albany starts anew, things will never get better.

 

For one if we could some sense of honesty out of that agency, that would be a start... I have to say Sander and Walder seem to be on the right track.

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The (MTA) has been using a completely outdated method to gage the need for services and that whole area of Knapp St. could use service since the (B36) only goes up Nostrand Avenue, not to mention that extending the (B4) would increase ridership in that area and take pressure off of the (B36). I also agree that Sheepshead Bay needs to speak up about reinstating the (B4) at all times to Sheepshead Bay. No bus service means less potential business for all of the areas down on Emmons Avenue and Knapp St. It is a loss for everyone.

 

I also think that the (MTA) has been rather lazy in proposing new bus routes to serve areas that could use them. They have done nothing but look to cut in areas that they shouldn't be and not cutting in areas that they should be.

 

Now I agree with that post 100%

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Now I agree with that post 100%

 

Well it's good to see that we can agree on something. I tend to think that I'm rather agreeable in general. :P

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Just wanted to say that although we have our differences some times, I really respect your wide knowledge of the system (all boroughs) especially as it pertains to people's travel patterns. You also have a good understanding on MTA decision making. If the people at Operations Planning had one tenth the knowledge that you have, we'd be in good shape. Wish you could get a job there somehow. The thing is they wouldn't hire anyone who knows too much. They look for people with mediocre knowledge who who will do as told and not think for themselves. That is part of the problem.

 

I just want to make one specific comment on one of your points. Although you may be correct that the eliminated portion of the B3 may not have been necessary according to pure numbers, you have to remember that that is the reason they have service guidelines, to keep minimum routes and minimum service levels in case people have no alternatives and would have to walk too far to a bus. The problem with the MTA is that whenever they use these guidelines it is only as justification to cut routes, never to add routes, and in this last round of cuts, they just distorted the data or ignored minimum walking guidelines to make further cuts such as the B3 and B4. The guideline calls for striving to have a maximum of a quarter-mile walk to a bus stop. Over the years, they started to interpret this as a quarter-mile to a bus route with wider bus stop spacing. In the case of the B4 to meet this standard, they measured the distance to the B36 (their proposed alternative) as the crow flies, ignoring that you can't walk diagonally or can only cross the Belt Parkway at specific points. The actual walk to the B36 is one-half mile in many cases plus you would have to transfer a second time and pay an extra fare which they also ignored. It is a widely accepted planning fact that most people will not walk more than a quarter mile to access a bus or one half mile to access a subway, so it is not reasonable to expect someone to walk a half mile to a bus. If that is how you are going to plan, you have estimate loss of revenue which they don't do either. They only considered loss of revenue when night time service was discontinued, but at that time the ridership is virtually negligible anyway ( 10 or fewer persons per route per trip?) so it really doesn't matter. But when you are talking about losing more than 1,000 riders, you are talking real money.

 

Their constant lying and distortions and just plain sloppiness is what irks me most. When they eliminated the B40, the tables they presented weren't even consistent. In one table a customer was someone who made a one-way trip and in another table it was someone who made a round trip, so when they compared the two tables they were comparing apples and oranges. When you bring that type of stuff to their attention, they just ignore you.

 

They were so embarrassed by my testimony at the service cut hearings, because I had all the facts, that they omitted 1 1/4 hours of the video testimony from their web coverage, so as to exclude my testimony. At first I thought it was just some type of glitch so I sent them an e-mail to bring it to their attention. They responded that they will fix it if they get the time. They never fixed it. Now how much effort would that have taken? Just proves it was no glitch but intentional.

Well constructed post... and I'll follow up w/ one of my own.

 

Although it may come off as me being a stubborn ox (lol), believe me, even when we disagree on things, I still soak in bits of info that is being relayed to me (although you'd never know it).... So on that note, I say...

 

Respect :tup:

 

 

As far as going solely off sheer numbers.... For me, it's never enough to rely on just one source of data - even if it comes right out the horse's mouth, so to speak.... If anyone thinks there aren't hidden agendas involved in these cuts, they are sadly mistaken... What is, isn't always on the surface.... Experience is the best teacher; which for me, makes it a hell of a lot easier to debunk & quite frankly, see through the smokescreens the MTA throws up w/ it's incomplete, irrational, illogical, inconsistent, unfair, and downright skewed information - with which it is portrayed to those that aren't privy to those that don't know any better....

 

a.k.a, the majority of the riding public.....

 

^^ Which is why I'm quick to call BS when I review these infamous hundred page PDF's they put out whenever some type of change (majority the time, in the form of cuts) is proposed, or set to take place.... Aint goin throw me into the category of the ill-informed & naive....

 

If one person can gain something, anything, from what I post on this forum about any given bus route, then my job is done... Disagree, tell me why I'm off base... Agree, well at least someone else sees what I'm seeing... That's how I take it.

 

Hobbies can become learning experiences... So if it weren't for "busfanning", I wouldn't know "one-tenth" of what I've come to realize over the past, well, 2 decades, if I didn't pick up on riders' habits on every single route, every single time I've rode one out...

 

As far as the MTA's suggestions to altered/discontinued routes goes, whenever they bring up alternate means of travel (in this case, walking distances), I take it w/ a grain of salt (and I walk at mach 1... lol)... I've long been convinced that:

 

- they make extensions/positive changes to a route based off enough ppl. in a given area (or the right group of people, which is where we disagree, but it is what it is) complaining... The methods with which they go about adding service, and taking away service, is not consistent - having a hearing and only allowing a handful of people to speak for 5 mins (or however short it is), isn't enough... full knowing they're gonna go ahead w/ what they planned anyway, but that's my suspicion....

 

- they only go off the map when they want to make a routing cut... and how many "lines" are on top of the same road... how many "lines" are adjacent some subway... how many "lines" are "near" another "line" on the map....

You cannot possibly judge how long, in accordance to how far it'll take for someone to walk from pt. A to B, by what's portrayed on a map... Just because you have point A & point B doesn't always mean that the two connect linearly (such as the case in your example w/ the B4 & the B36... which is true)....

 

 

If they feel axing a particular route outright at a given moment would yield in too much backlash at that moment, then they start cutting individual runs... here & there... over the span of years.... so much so that ridership will diminish due to poor service... which gives them "justification" to getting rid of a route... it's the underhanded shit like that I try to get ppl. to realize - because I see it, and oh is it ever so freakin conspicuous !!

 

I understand the MTA is doing what it does to save some funds, but on the same side of the coin, I feel the MTA has gotten into the habit of discouraging bus service in NYC, and gotten into this set mode of attempting to cram everyone onto the subway.....

 

Yes, the train is generally the faster mode of transporatation, but regardless:

 

- Everyone doesn't live a hop, skip, and a jump from the subway.

- Everyone aint fin to walk ridiculous distances to get to the subway.

 

 

fin.

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Just wanted to say that although we have our differences some times, I really respect your wide knowledge of the system (all boroughs) especially as it pertains to people's travel patterns. You also have a good understanding on MTA decision making. If the people at Operations Planning had one tenth the knowledge that you have, we'd be in good shape. Wish you could get a job there somehow. The thing is they wouldn't hire anyone who knows too much. They look for people with mediocre knowledge who who will do as told and not think for themselves. That is part of the problem.

 

I just want to make one specific comment on one of your points. Although you may be correct that the eliminated portion of the B3 may not have been necessary according to pure numbers, you have to remember that that is the reason they have service guidelines, to keep minimum routes and minimum service levels in case people have no alternatives and would have to walk too far to a bus. The problem with the MTA is that whenever they use these guidelines it is only as justification to cut routes, never to add routes, and in this last round of cuts, they just distorted the data or ignored minimum walking guidelines to make further cuts such as the B3 and B4. The guideline calls for striving to have a maximum of a quarter-mile walk to a bus stop. Over the years, they started to interpret this as a quarter-mile to a bus route with wider bus stop spacing. In the case of the B4 to meet this standard, they measured the distance to the B36 (their proposed alternative) as the crow flies, ignoring that you can't walk diagonally or can only cross the Belt Parkway at specific points. The actual walk to the B36 is one-half mile in many cases plus you would have to transfer a second time and pay an extra fare which they also ignored. It is a widely accepted planning fact that most people will not walk more than a quarter mile to access a bus or one half mile to access a subway, so it is not reasonable to expect someone to walk a half mile to a bus. If that is how you are going to plan, you have estimate loss of revenue which they don't do either. They only considered loss of revenue when night time service was discontinued, but at that time the ridership is virtually negligible anyway ( 10 or fewer persons per route per trip?) so it really doesn't matter. But when you are talking about losing more than 1,000 riders, you are talking real money.

 

Their constant lying and distortions and just plain sloppiness is what irks me most. When they eliminated the B40, the tables they presented weren't even consistent. In one table a customer was someone who made a one-way trip and in another table it was someone who made a round trip, so when they compared the two tables they were comparing apples and oranges. When you bring that type of stuff to their attention, they just ignore you.

 

They were so embarrassed by my testimony at the service cut hearings, because I had all the facts, that they omitted 1 1/4 hours of the video testimony from their web coverage, so as to exclude my testimony. At first I thought it was just some type of glitch so I sent them an e-mail to bring it to their attention. They responded that they will fix it if they get the time. They never fixed it. Now how much effort would that have taken? Just proves it was no glitch but intentional.

After reading this post, I don't think any of us can get a job with the (MTA). It's like they spoke, but didn't do too much thinking before speaking

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Well constructed post... and I'll follow up w/ one of my own.

 

Although it may come off as me being a stubborn ox (lol), believe me, even when we disagree on things, I still soak in bits of info that is being relayed to me (although you'd never know it).... So on that note, I say...

 

Respect :tup:

 

 

As far as going solely off sheer numbers.... For me, it's never enough to rely on just one source of data - even if it comes right out the horse's mouth, so to speak.... If anyone thinks there aren't hidden agendas involved in these cuts, they are sadly mistaken... What is, isn't always on the surface.... Experience is the best teacher; which for me, makes it a hell of a lot easier to debunk & quite frankly, see through the smokescreens the MTA throws up w/ it's incomplete, irrational, illogical, inconsistent, unfair, and downright skewed information - with which it is portrayed to those that aren't privy to those that don't know any better....

 

a.k.a, the majority of the riding public.....

 

^^ Which is why I'm quick to call BS when I review these infamous hundred page PDF's they put out whenever some type of change (majority the time, in the form of cuts) is proposed, or set to take place.... Aint goin throw me into the category of the ill-informed & naive....

 

If one person can gain something, anything, from what I post on this forum about any given bus route, then my job is done... Disagree, tell me why I'm off base... Agree, well at least someone else sees what I'm seeing... That's how I take it.

 

Hobbies can become learning experiences... So if it weren't for "busfanning", I wouldn't know "one-tenth" of what I've come to realize over the past, well, 2 decades, if I didn't pick up on riders' habits on every single route, every single time I've rode one out...

 

As far as the MTA's suggestions to altered/discontinued routes goes, whenever they bring up alternate means of travel (in this case, walking distances), I take it w/ a grain of salt (and I walk at mach 1... lol)... I've long been convinced that:

 

- they make extensions/positive changes to a route based off enough ppl. in a given area (or the right group of people, which is where we disagree, but it is what it is) complaining... The methods with which they go about adding service, and taking away service, is not consistent - having a hearing and only allowing a handful of people to speak for 5 mins (or however short it is), isn't enough... full knowing they're gonna go ahead w/ what they planned anyway, but that's my suspicion....

 

- they only go off the map when they want to make a routing cut... and how many "lines" are on top of the same road... how many "lines" are adjacent some subway... how many "lines" are "near" another "line" on the map....

You cannot possibly judge how long, in accordance to how far it'll take for someone to walk from pt. A to B, by what's portrayed on a map... Just because you have point A & point B doesn't always mean that the two connect linearly (such as the case in your example w/ the B4 & the B36... which is true)....

 

 

If they feel axing a particular route outright at a given moment would yield in too much backlash at that moment, then they start cutting individual runs... here & there... over the span of years.... so much so that ridership will diminish due to poor service... which gives them "justification" to getting rid of a route... it's the underhanded shit like that I try to get ppl. to realize - because I see it, and oh is it ever so freakin conspicuous !!

 

I understand the MTA is doing what it does to save some funds, but on the same side of the coin, I feel the MTA has gotten into the habit of discouraging bus service in NYC, and gotten into this set mode of attempting to cram everyone onto the subway.....

 

Yes, the train is generally the faster mode of transporatation, but regardless:

 

- Everyone doesn't live a hop, skip, and a jump from the subway.

- Everyone aint fin to walk ridiculous distances to get to the subway.

 

 

fin.

 

 

I've been saying this repeatedly myself, but we have folks in here that are diehard train folks. I mean don't get me wrong, the subway is great esp. when the buses are f*cked up, but bus service should complement the train service. Look at the subway service today and there are constant delays and construction just about every week on a majority of the lines, requiring bus shuttles to get people around. The way I see it, the (MTA) tries to push people towards the subway when they don't provide adequate service on the subway. Constant disruptions. Also, as you said, they manipulate bus service pulling buses here and there and then suddenly the route must be cut because it is no longer viable. I mean people aren't stupid. They see when service is reduced and they move to other lines that have better frequencies, but as you said that is how they drive down demand on certain lines and then they say "Oh well we've tried everything to get the route more ridership" WHEN THEY KNOW THAT THE LINE IS DEAD. They did the same shit with the X16, pulling runs here and there and then they'd start cutting service little by little. Then they argued that ridership declined so they were going to try to boost ridership by having the X16 go further into Port Richmond. The extension was so pointless that it was clear that it wouldn't help at all. The line had already been seen as one that was unreliable, so there was no way that folks were going to suddenly flock to it because of a dumb extension. I have to laugh at whole thing because they really think that people are stupid, but it is so clear what their agenda is. In spite of all of that, it was still used. I mean the service in the AM was pretty reliable, but you couldn't get an X16 to save your life in the evening rush unless it was the last run which was at about 17:55 or so, which doesn't even cover the later part of the rush. :P

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I've been saying this repeatedly myself, but we have folks in here that are diehard train folks. I mean don't get me wrong, the subway is great esp. when the buses are f*cked up, but bus service should complement the train service. Look at the subway service today and there are constant delays and construction just about every week on a majority of the lines, requiring bus shuttles to get people around.

 

The way I see it, the (MTA) tries to push people towards the subway when they don't provide adequate service on the subway. Constant disruptions. Also, as you said, they manipulate bus service pulling buses here and there and then suddenly the route must be cut because it is no longer viable. I mean people aren't stupid. They see when service is reduced and they move to other lines that have better frequencies, but as you said that is how they drive down demand on certain lines and then they say "Oh well we've tried everything to get the route more ridership" WHEN THEY KNOW THAT THE LINE IS DEAD. They did the same shit with the X16, pulling runs here and there and then they'd start cutting service little by little. Then they argued that ridership declined so they were going to try to boost ridership by having the X16 go further into Port Richmond. The extension was so pointless that it was clear that it wouldn't help at all. The line had already been seen as one that was unreliable, so there was no way that folks were going to suddenly flock to it because of a dumb extension. I have to laugh at whole thing because they really think that people are stupid, but it is so clear what their agenda is. In spite of all of that, it was still used. I mean the service in the AM was pretty reliable, but you couldn't get an X16 to save your life in the evening rush unless it was the last run which was at about 17:55 or so, which doesn't even cover the later part of the rush. :P

 

...and when subway construction is ongoing, to the point where they have to take shuttle buses, it makes the disdain for buses grow that much more.

 

To be honest, I don't focus on the die hard train folks.... lot of them (the fanboys, I'm referring to) on that side of the community are on that "f*** buses, trains rule" BS... It's not, or never was about train vs. bus w/ me... I'm not one for neglecting one mode, and (overly) supporting another... On the forums, well, I choose to talk about buses more... There are enough people here (alone) that speak on subway related issues, which is a good thing.... However, I do wish that we had more folks that speak up about buses (outside of the express bus hate, and the ridiculous/ill-thought out route proposals [which has died down hundred-fold, since I left RD])...

 

 

Regarding the x16.... Come to think of it, I used to play a little game, whenever I would wait for the BM buses (or the x27/28) whilst in lwr. manhattan, back when I would get out a little earlier... of course you got the x1's/10's/12's/17's of the world, but what I would do is keep a (mental) tally of which of the lesser frequent SI routes I saw, before my bus came.... I would see at least 3 x15's (not exaggerating), 1 x11, 1 x19, and the x13/16/18/20 was a toss up.... of those four routes, I would see the 16 the least, the 13 the most; which iddn't sayin much...

 

Lookin at it from the outside-in, if I didn't think of, or mention the x30, I wouldn't stop to think that the x16 existed.... that's how bad that was, and I try to maintain a general knowledge of every route in the system... With what you said in the end of your post, that'd explain why I never saw 'em.... and that's just from an outsider's point of view...

 

All in all though, like you alluded to, I also see our transportation system as one cohesive unit.

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...and when subway construction is ongoing, to the point where they have to take shuttle buses, it makes the disdain for buses grow that much more.

 

To be honest, I don't focus on the die hard train folks.... lot of them (the fanboys, I'm referring to) on that side of the community are on that "f*** buses, trains rule" BS... It's not, or never was about train vs. bus w/ me... I'm not one for neglecting one mode, and (overly) supporting another... On the forums, well, I choose to talk about buses more... There are enough people here (alone) that speak on subway related issues, which is a good thing.... However, I do wish that we had more folks that speak up about buses (outside of the express bus hate, and the ridiculous/ill-thought out route proposals [which has died down hundred-fold, since I left RD])...

 

 

Regarding the x16.... Come to think of it, I used to play a little game, whenever I would wait for the BM buses (or the x27/28) whilst in lwr. manhattan, back when I would get out a little earlier... of course you got the x1's/10's/12's/17's of the world, but what I would do is keep a (mental) tally of which of the lesser frequent SI routes I saw, before my bus came.... I would see at least 3 x15's (not exaggerating), 1 x11, 1 x19, and the x13/16/18/20 was a toss up.... of those four routes, I would see the 16 the least, the 13 the most; which iddn't sayin much...

 

Lookin at it from the outside-in, if I didn't think of, or mention the x30, I wouldn't stop to think that the x16 existed.... that's how bad that was, and I try to maintain a general knowledge of every route in the system... With what you said in the end of your post, that'd explain why I never saw 'em.... and that's just from an outsider's point of view...

 

All in all though, like you alluded to, I also see our transportation system as one cohesive unit.

 

I have to say your observations were spot on in terms of how SI expresses run during the PM and the X13s were also a toss up in the afternoon. The X11 is another weird bus in the afternoon. It wouldn't say hit or miss, but considering how short the route is from Worth St., the buses would bunch a lot. The X15 I find at least back before the cuts was very frequent and runs well in general, but not as frequent now since the cuts. And the X1s run frequent but if you don't see one for a while, you can expect 3 or 4 to come in a pack. Two packed and then two practically empty. lol

 

But yeah, if the (MTA) were wise they would be implementing certain bus changes now because clearly subway improvements take a lot longer to implement and the immediate costs are quite high.

 

I don't know if you've noticed or not, but I still think the (M5) in terms of reliability stinks now since the cuts. It seems like for every (M2) there is maybe one (M5). I'm not going off of the schedule either, just my own observations.

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The smart idea would have been to shut down lines that have the lowest riderships, and to decrease bus service on the ones that have a low amount of ridership. The ones that are in the medium range would have a balance of buses, and the one with higher riderships should recieve limited or SBS service.

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The smart idea would have been to shut down lines that have the lowest riderships, and to decrease bus service on the ones that have a low amount of ridership. The ones that are in the medium range would have a balance of buses, and the one with higher riderships should recieve limited or SBS service.

 

 

Okay, sure and what do you do with the people that you leave stranded with no bus service??

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There are places where ridership is low enough to deem shut down of the bus line, and for the short distance bus lines it would be absorbed into a longer bus line that exists.

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There are places where ridership is low enough to deem shut down of the bus line, and for the short distance bus lines it would be absorbed into a longer bus line that exists.

 

....which is exactly what happened w/ the x13.

 

I'm sure x14 riders (the ones that embarked on it, before the combination) loved that idea......

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