2 train stripmap question

[6 Lexington Ave]

Sorry if there's an answer about this in the forums, but since the runs local during late nights why doesn't the stripmap have the local stops?

[Guest lance25]

There isn't enough room to fit the 61 stops neatly on the strip-map. The (with 54 total stops) barely fits.

[6 Lexington Ave]

So, I'm assuming that during late nights it says "This map is not in use"?

[Mysterious2train]

Eh, I think the extra 12 stops could be crammed in if the map designers were willing to use, maybe, literally every single inch or something

[CTK246]

So, I'm assuming that during late nights it says "This map is not in use"?

 

No, it's still used, but the lights don't go out until they reach that express station.

[chrisliz09]

So, I'm assuming that during late nights it says "This map is not in use"?

no its on when its over night it just doest movie until it gets too the station it shows, the announcements work and the displays show the other stations

[via White Plains Road]

Sorry if there's an answer about this in the forums, but since the runs local during late nights why doesn't the stripmap have the local stops?

 

When the R-142's was introduced to the it was full time express via 7th Avenue hense why the strip map has only the express stops. Late September of 1999 the became local via 7th Avenue during late nights.....they just added the local announcement stops and never redid the strip map. I hope that helped!

[4P3607]

I was on the today thinking this! I always meant to ask this but never did lol.

[mark1447]

There isn't enough room to fit the 61 stops neatly on the strip-map. The (with 54 total stops) barely fits.

 

Incorrect bro. After or around 9/11 the was the IRT Broadway 7th Avenue Local due to the suspended and the cut to 42nd Street(Sometimes 14th).. The HAD both local and express stops on the strip maps. When the came back, the around 2002 or 03 restored the old express strip map. TBH the should of kept the old strip map with the Local and Express combined, just like the ..

 

Heres a snap shot i took of 6956 of no strip (Ether some foamer stole it or the t/a took it down, idk but from 2010):

 

Theres about 60+ holes here. (Count if you want)

[Guest lance25]

@mark1447: You're correct about there being enough indicator lights for the local (it's at least 63, a few could be hidden behind the pole on the right), but I stand by what I stated about the stops not fitting neatly on the card. Notice that on both ends, the first and last three stops have to be ridiculously short so they fit and aren't cut off by the cutouts for the directional arrows.

[MikeGerald]

Okay, it has been established that the strip map can indeed show all of the midnight hours #2 stops - but the MTA decided to use the regular express route edition of the line for all times. Why?

 

It simply could be that the express route edition is simply less confusing for the riders, shows a different between the local #1 and the express #2 lines, and for the #2 line the express route is the normal service. The subway maps these days tend to show the normal service of the lines these days.

 

Mike

[FamousNYLover]

When I was on train running local for weekend G.O. like uptown and downtown switch with trains or heading to South Ferry, lots of riders were confused.

[West End]

When the R-142's was introduced to the it was full time express via 7th Avenue hense why the strip map has only the express stops. Late September of 1999 the became local via 7th Avenue during late nights.....they just added the local announcement stops and never redid the strip map. I hope that helped!

 

White Plains Road definitely has it right. The used to run express overnight (if I remember correctly from my early teen years). They just never got around to reprogramming the stripmap.

[Princelex]

Okay, it has been established that the strip map can indeed show all of the midnight hours #2 stops - but the MTA decided to use the regular express route edition of the line for all times. Why?

 

It simply could be that the express route edition is simply less confusing for the riders, shows a different between the local #1 and the express #2 lines, and for the #2 line the express route is the normal service. The subway maps these days tend to show the normal service of the lines these days.

 

Mike

If that's the case then why does the show local and express stops? It works on that line, having local stops will definately help out with the big time.

[Grand Concourse]

Combination of the having the R142/A's last of the ML [to a small extent] and the [i believe] was always the main local late nights.

That plus the had more than enough room since it was express in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

[King Of RedBirds]

Incorrect bro. After or around 9/11 the was the IRT Broadway 7th Avenue Local due to the suspended and the cut to 42nd Street(Sometimes 14th).. The HAD both local and express stops on the strip maps. When the came back, the around 2002 or 03 restored the old express strip map. TBH the should of kept the old strip map with the Local and Express combined, just like the ..

 

Heres a snap shot i took of 6956 of no strip (Ether some foamer stole it or the t/a took it down, idk but from 2010):

 

Theres about 60+ holes here. (Count if you want)

 

You are wrong the was at 14th St at all times.

[mark1447]

You are wrong the was at 14th St at all times.

 

The also ended at 42nd Street sometimes due to the cutting to 14th other times then New Lots.

 

If i can remember.

[TwoTimer]

If that's the case then why does the show local and express stops? It works on that line, having local stops will definately help out with the big time.

 

The was always local overnite, and to new lots and thats why the stops to new lots exist on the map

[Broadway Local]

http://i52.tinypic.com/2r3ihcg.jpg

 

There should be around 63-64 dots in this pic!

[Nova RTS 9147]

If that's the case then why does the show local and express stops? It works on that line, having local stops will definately help out with the big time.

 

The better question is why doesn't the replace the strip maps all together? It's already been explained that the didn't make local stops at the time the strip maps were printed, while the has always been the Lexington Avenue Local at nights.

[MikeGerald]

The #4 trains was NOT ALWAYS the over-nite local train!

 

Let's make this real clear - for the MOST of the history of the Lexington Avenue line the #4 train ran express during the mid-night hours (and at all the other times), #6 ran local as usual, and the #5 route express train pattern changed depending upon rush hours, day times, night hours, midnight hours and weekends.

 

The #4 became the over nite local train in the mid/late-1970's, when for about a 20-year period of hell - the #6 train became a shuttle from 125th Street to Pelham Bay Park. I remember being at CCNY during the first months of this operation, and folks getting pretty confused about the #6 not running at all during the midnight hours. It was no fun then transferring to/from the #6 shuttle, missing the shuttle trains or having a long commute to the Bronx.

 

Mayor Rudy G. put an end to the #6 shuttle operation by having the #6 line run full length as a local at all hours. Thus Lexington Avenue local service was increased from one train every 20 minutes, to 2 trains - one every 10 minutes - due the long waits that upper Eastside riders had on extremely cold winter nights. There are very few things that I credit Mayor Rudy G. for, and this is one of them, so I have to hand it to him. He forced the MTA to expand the train service, especially since the lone #4 midnight hour route was the sole service on the Eastside of Manhattan, and every much over-crowded during the midnight hours.

 

While the "collective memory" might suggest that the #4 was "always local" during the midnight hours - this is simply not the case. This is just "recent memory" working. Prior to the mid-1970's fiscal crisis and cutbacks - all of the transit lines in Manhattan had local and express service during the midnight hours (A, AA, D, and E), (D and F), (N and RR), (1 and 2), (4 and 6) while Queens Blvd had the E, F and GG routes running - with shuttle trains for the remaining extensions and branches. Yes, the system has changed over time - so "always" is not the best word to use sometimes.

 

The MTA decides what information goes on their strip maps. They decided to include the local stations for the #4 line - possibly because of the a) long time since the late-1970's of the #4 being midnight hours local, there's room on the strip map to show all of the stations neatly and the programming is easy, and c) it's their maps and their subway.

 

Just a few points.

Mike

[MikeGerald]

The #4 train was not ALWAYS the midnight hours local to New Lots Avenue!

 

Folks you're just going to have to learn your transit history - it is that simple!

 

In fact over the history of the IRT subway the daytime routes that traveled to/from New Lots Avenue, or to Flatbush Avenue has changed several dozen times over the decades from the 1920's to the present. In short, trains from the westside traveled to/from New Lots Avenue or Flatbush Avenue regularly - with their ever changing terminals being: 242nd Street-VCP, 241st Street-WPR, 145th Street-Lenox AVenue, 148th Street-Lenox Terminal, West 180th Street-Bronx Park, East 180th Street, Dyre Avenue, with a couple of interesting odds and ends thrown in the mix.

 

As recently as 2001-2002 - westside #1 trains from 242nd Street-VCP were traveling to/from New Lots Avenue as just one example. Except for being all local - this was the pattern of the westside express service prior to the mid-1950's. Please don't use the word - "always" - it is just wrong!

 

During the midnight hours - very late nights - whatever westside line shut down for the night - the Lexington Avenue express route would then handle. So if the westside service to Flatbush Avenue shut down, the #4 line would take over during the midnight hours, or if the New Lots AVenue service to/from the westside shut down - the #4 would take over.

 

The Lexington Avenue express trains had as their terminals in Brooklyn: Atlantic Avenue, Utica Avenue, Flatbush Avenue and New Lots Avenue - with one of the last two terminals being the midnight hour service, since another line was not running.

 

So NO, the #4 did not ALWAYS travel midnight hours to New Lots Avenue. On the http://www.NYCSubway.ORG one will find 1970's subway maps where it clearly shows the #4 traveling to both Utica AVenue and Flatbush Avenue, and traveling to Flatbush AVenue during the midnight hours combined with the #3 route. When the #3 shut down for the night, the #4 took over - as I explained above.

 

Learn Your Transit History!

Mike

[Princelex]

The was always local overnite, and to new lots and thats why the stops to new lots exist on the map

 

The better question is why doesn't the replace the strip maps all together? It's already been explained that the didn't make local stops at the time the strip maps were printed, while the has always been the Lexington Avenue Local at nights.

 

I realize that what I said yesterday was worded all wrong. I know why the is a local overnight but what I should have said was if the can have the maps reflect local service for the overnights, I don't see why the train maps can't do the same. From the pic that mark1447 showed, it looks like the number of stops the makes would just make the number of stops to be shown on a strip map inside an R142. With that said, the angle is not straight so what I see could be wrong but it always appeared to me that you could show all train stops the makes after midnight and I hope in the future, the maps can show that so that there is no confusion to riders who are using the at 2am who don't normally use it.

[MikeGerald]

As I said before:

 

It simply could be that the express route edition is simply less confusing for the riders, shows a different between the local #1 and the express #2 lines, and for the #2 line the express route is the normal service. The subway maps these days tend to show the normal service of the lines these days.

 

It simply could be psychology: the #2 line does not "seem" as long as it is when the midnight hour local stations are omitted, compared to showing all of the stops. The "missing stops" simply become "extra stations" to the transit rider's mind - than if all stations were shown.

 

In the 1970's, on the R-42 and R-44 type cars, there were strip maps with a white background, for example on the J or L lines. These strip maps existed for all of the letter lines, however. These strip maps were not electronic but simple large roll signs. Lines like the A-train, etc, seemed to be very long routes when all of the express and local stations were listed on the map. Leaving riders to wonder "when ever will this trip make it to a certain station" - because of all of the stops in between. Now even if the train were making express stops only (indicated on the maps by darker/bold lettering) - the route still "seemed" long.

 

Again, it is the MTA's subway to do with as they please.

Mike

[Kacie Jane]

It simply could be that the express route edition is simply less confusing for the riders, shows a different between the local #1 and the express #2 lines, and for the #2 line the express route is the normal service. The subway maps these days tend to show the normal service of the lines these days.

 

It simply could be psychology: the #2 line does not "seem" as long as it is when the midnight hour local stations are omitted, compared to showing all of the stops. The "missing stops" simply become "extra stations" to the transit rider's mind - than if all stations were shown.

 

 

I'm not sure what your point is, as all those reasons apply equally as well to the as to the -- and your comment about maps tending to show normal service these days, while generally true, is disproven in this context by the stripmaps on the .

 

If they made the 4 stripmap "express only", they could get take out 14 stops in Manhattan (instead of only 12 for the 2), plus 5 stops between Atlantic and Utica, plus the 7 extra stops to New Lots -- which would probably make it less cluttered and less confusing for 90% of customers, but more confusing for those who do ride the late night local.

 

So really the only reason that makes sense is that the is too long with all the local stops, while the is not (but just barely).

 

As a P.S., while I love your history posts, Mike, as they're typically filled with stuff I hadn't known yet but was always curious about, I don't think it was necessary here. While it's true that the was not always the late night local to New Lots, I think it could be assumed from the context of the thread that they meant since the late 90s when the NTTs were introduced, so it would be accurate to say that the has been the late night local for that entire time, whereas the has not.