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Overnight subway service


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I asked a similar question recently in the NYC bus thread.

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=428912#post428912

 

 

What changes on any subway route would you want to see? Also should headways on certain busy lines i.e (4)(E)(L)(1)(2) be increased to every 15 minutes until as late as 3am at least on Friday/Saturday Nights for club goers?

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(R) to Forest Hills at night, or at least swapping the (F) to be the local and (E) to be the express.

 

Hourly (H) service 1:30AM-4AM.

 

 

I actually agree with either shuttle bus/30-minute (Q53) service or extending the (H) to Euclid and having hourly service to/from Rockaway Park.

 

Although Rock Park riders would wait longer for a train, the advantage is that they no longer have to transfer at the ghost town of Broad Channel particuarly during the frigid cold nights w/ frigid winds from Jamaica Bay.

 

I also make the following suggestions.

 

(5)extended to Grand Central via express.

(3)to South Ferry via Local so (2) could run via express 24/7.

(R) extended at least to Pacific/Atlantic or ideally to Forest Hills 24/7.

 

(J)terminates at Chambers weekday overnights as well as currently all times weekends.

 

(C) is extended to run until 1230am. The (A) is SRO most nights between 1030pm(when "C" ends service)-1am.

 

On Friday and Saturday Nights run 15-minute headways on the (1)(2)(4)(E)

(F) and (L) lines until 3am for the club goers.

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Anyway from looking about it seems like the (4) could be made to run express at night on the Lexington Avenue Line. I wonder why they don't do that. It's just weird due to the fact that the Lexington Avenue Line is the only line operating on the East Side, and there isn't any fast service at night. There are a lot of night clubs in the East Village that might benefit a bit with the (4) running express.

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You could also have the (A) run express between 59th Street-Columbus Circle to Canal Street to add speed of service during late night hours.

 

Then local 8th Ave Local riders will be ticked off especially if they miss the connection from a 'local' (E) to an (A) express between 59th-CC and Canal/Church. In worst case that an added 20-30 minutes to the trip.

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Maybe it's me - but if I lived on the Rockaways, say Rockaway Park - it would not be an advantage to REDUCE my train service to once an hour with the suggestion that such a service reduction is "better" since I get to wait in a cold subway station. How is waiting an hour for a subway train an advantage?

 

It's just another penalty for the folks who have to ride those trains at those times.

 

There is no advantage to waiting an hour for the ferry, so I can't believe that waiting that length of time in a subway station would really be pleasant. Leave well-enough alone.

 

Making the F-train a local train along Queens Blvd would make for an extremely long trip for the train operators and conductors. Leave the F-train alone, and the E-train as the midnight hour local route.

 

Why reduce service on the J-line in Manhattan? How does that help the riders? How does reducing service to the Rockaways help the riders? How does making the F-train all local help the riders?

 

The weird thing about having all midnight hour service operate on the same headways - once every 20 minutes - is that it enforces a kind of rough equality among the riders. Yes riders on the Eastside and Westside #1, #2, #4 and #6 lines have Manhattan local service every 10 minutes compared to riders on the A, D, E, F, J, L, N, Q and #7 - but at least that be explained that the non-business district branches have service at the usual every 20 mark. No neighborhood or route really gets much more service than other routes. No neighborhood "really has it better than others" in this scheme.

 

Increasing midnight hour service on some routes but not others will start arguments from folks who would champion for "their" route. What political person is not gonna want to champion for their residents - voters?

 

So yes, it seems counter-intuitive to argue for the same service frequency on all of the branch lines - as an aid to the riders - but the alternative could be worse. What neighborhood is ever going to say that they actually WANT less train service?

 

Just my thoughts.

Mike

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My overnight changes:

 

(3) extended to 14th or 34th (either way so it stops at Penn Station).

(4) is express at all times.

(5) is extended to Brooklyn Bridge or Bowling Green and replaces the (4) as a local during overnights.

(6) is possibly extended to Bowling Green.

 

All (A) trains are express.

(C) service is 24/7 and is extended to Lefferts overnights. eliminating the Leffers-Euclid Shuttle.

(D) stops on 6th Avenue at 14th and 23rd Street.

(M) is extended to West 4th, 34th or 42nd Street overnights as part of having the (M) become a 19/7 line to 71-Continental (if the (M) goes to 34th or 42nd, it would skip 14th and 23rd overnights).

(R) runs overnights to 71-Continental OR overnights is extended to Jamaica Center, with the (E) operating as an express at all times.

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My overnight changes:

 

(3) extended to 14th or 34th (either way so it stops at Penn Station)

 

Ok I kind of agree, but sometimes there's some late night G/O's that send the (1) or (2) trains express so a (3) train @ 34th Street-Penn Station or 14th Street is going to be in the way of the (1) or (2) trains!

 

(4) is express at all times

 

As much I would love to see a (4) express 24/7....its not going to happen b/c those damn night club ppl and customers will be very upset!

 

(5) is extended to Brooklyn Bridge or Bowling Green and replaces the (4) as a local during overnights.

 

(6) is possibly extended to Bowling Green

 

You're asking a bit to much for that to happen.....I can see the (5) going to Grand Central-42nd Street (which is not going to happen no time soon) but extending the (6) to Bowling Green....keep dreaming on that one!

 

All (A) trains are express.

(C) service is 24/7 and is extended to Lefferts overnights. eliminating the Leffers-Euclid Shuttle

 

Yeah ok....NEXT. Not going to happen!

 

(D) stops on 6th Avenue at 14th and 23rd Street

 

6th Avenue Line customers are not complaining about the (D) express there is no point of it stopping @ 14th Street and 23rd Street....the (F) is doing real good stopping @ those station by itself!

 

(M) is extended to West 4th, 34th or 42nd Street overnights as part of having the (M) become a 19/7 line to 71-Continental (if the (M) goes to 34th or 42nd, it would skip 14th and 23rd overnights)

 

Keep dreaming buddy...that's way too much work for the crews and more confusing for the customers. I don't see that happening and plus there are no crossovers for the (M) to lay up in Manhattan. The only crossover is @ W. 4th Street-Washington Square and it screw up service for the 6th and 8th Avenue Lines!

 

(R) runs overnights to 71-Continental OR overnights is extended to Jamaica Center, with the (E) operating as an express at all times.

 

That was in a future budget plan but I don't see the use of the (R) going past 36th Street in Brooklyn and extending (R) to Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer....customers will have a field day over that b/c it will never happen. The (E) is doing good by itself @ that station it doesn't need another line!

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smh @ ppl [in general] always saying make the (C) the 24/7 line to Lefferts. I get that by station number - Far Rock/Rock Park > Lefferts, but those 3 stops on Lefferts aren't ghost towns and who on the (C) will stay on the train to Euclid when they are going to bail at Rockaway Blvd and catch the (A)? Leave the (C) at Euclid.

As for the (A), the line is very long as it is, I would say have the Lefferts line be the 24/7 branch and have the shuttle from Far Rock run to Euclid. That would cut down on the total milage especially for an all stop (A) line at night.

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The only thing I can remotely see possible is the (3) extended one stop to 34-Penn. That, and the (5) going to Grand Central as a Lex express and that's basically it.

 

-If you run the (A) express at all times, what would be local? Remember the (D) is a 24/7 CPW express, and the (:) & (C) don't run at all.

 

-There's absolutely no need for the (M) to be extended anywhere past Myrtle-Bway nights & weekends since its completely covered by the (J) (in Brooklyn), the (F) (in Manhattan), and the (E) (in Queens).

 

-What would be the point of extending the (6) past Brooklyn Bridge? All you're doing is just adding uneeded service when the (4) is perfectly fine.

 

Just my 2 cents

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smh @ ppl [in general] always saying make the (C) the 24/7 line to Lefferts. I get that by station number - Far Rock/Rock Park > Lefferts, but those 3 stops on Lefferts aren't ghost towns and who on the (C) will stay on the train to Euclid when they are going to bail at Rockaway Blvd and catch the (A)? Leave the (C) at Euclid.

As for the (A), the line is very long as it is, I would say have the Lefferts line be the 24/7 branch and have the shuttle from Far Rock run to Euclid. That would cut down on the total milage especially for an all stop (A) line at night.

 

For years, the Lefferts line WAS the 24/7 branch, and before the (A) was split in two, you actually had the (H) shuttle (outside of when the (E) ran out that way) as the sole Rockaway line. In later years, you had the infamous (A) round-robin shuttle during the overnights before it was decided to make Lefferts the overnight shuttle and Far Rockaway the full-time (A) terminal, including overnights.

 

As this would be done, the (C) would ONLY be extended to Lefferts during the overnights to eliminate the Shuttle from Lefferts to Euclid at that time. All other times, the (C) would operate as normal to Euclid.

 

I would think overnight Lefferts riders would appreciate having the (C) over the overnight (S) in that case.

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I do agree that the (C) should go to Lefferts Boulevard, but the issue I see with that is the residents in Richmond Hill would complain about having no direct express service, or express service reduced. In my opinion the only time I'd see (A) express service needed to Lefferts would be rush hours with 8-10 minute frequency and nothing else. At all other times it's not difficult to have a (C) train held at Euclid for a minute or two for an (A) train to pull into the station.

 

As for the Lefferts Boulevard Late Night Shuttle all this would do is have the late night shuttle be relabled to (C).

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How should I refute this one :)

 

I guess the overall thought is that longer overnight lines (4)(A)(2) should be express 24/7 much like the (D)... as if there are a throng of people riding these lines end to end...

 

For all those that said the (4) has to be overnight express (again, at one point it was with the (6) local during overnight hours) for the "club goers to get home quicker", fact check yourselves. Most of said east side clubs are near Astor, Bleecker, Spring, 23 and 28, stops your express (4) would no longer stop at. While the info signs are now there which can tell these people whether to stay on a (6) or transfer at Union Sq/GC for a (4), its still not enough to justify the move.

 

Its funny how someone suggested another long line (F) to go back to local (the pre-63rd st tunnel service pattern) so its shorter (E) can be express again... lol. It's not about the crews Mike (even though I wish it were), look at how crews are going all the way to Far Rock at night local, try A/101 and A/102 on for size :) (3 halves local to the Rock, the last half express in rush hour).

 

And I didn't forget those west side clubbers looking for express (2) service overnight, and once again the main club stations are Houston, Christopher, 23 and 28. Again, I didn't know most people riding the (2) at night are going end to end on it...

 

I was told the reason 42-TS was chosen over 34-PS as the overnight (3) terminal was because there were no dispatching facilities at 34th itself and it was easier to be able to close the whole express island platform for cleaning overnight much like its 8th Avenue sibling. Many of the late night GO's had the (3) ending at Penn anyway, without being publicized. It also rarely went express during those periods.

 

And for those who want the (5) to go past Shuttle status, cost efficiency wins this one. The more you get, the more you want. The 149-GC (5) people will then want it to go into Manhattan once it gets there. The 42-GC people will then want it to go to Bowling Green once it gets that far. Keep in mind once it gets past E180, now a full length train is needed as 5 cars is too short a train to fit everyone at 149-GC.

 

The only decent thing I've heard in this entire thread is keeping the (C) local later into the evening (instead of the first (A) local leaving 168 around 2230, midnite is more like it, which would keep (C) service until about 1145, and local (C) service in Brooklyn until 1230ish).

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My replies in red.

 

How should I refute this one :)

 

I guess the overall thought is that longer overnight lines (4)(A)(2) should be express 24/7 much like the (D)... as if there are a throng of people riding these lines end to end...

 

For all those that said the (4) has to be overnight express (again, at one point it was with the (6) local during overnight hours) for the "club goers to get home quicker", fact check yourselves. Most of said east side clubs are near Astor, Bleecker, Spring, 23 and 28, stops your express (4) would no longer stop at. While the info signs are now there which can tell these people whether to stay on a (6) or transfer at Union Sq/GC for a (4), its still not enough to justify the move.

 

Good point.

Its funny how someone suggested another long line (F) to go back to local (the pre-63rd st tunnel service pattern) so its shorter (E) can be express again... lol. It's not about the crews Mike (even though I wish it were), look at how crews are going all the way to Far Rock at night local, try A/101 and A/102 on for size :) (3 halves local to the Rock, the last half express in rush hour).

 

Maybe they have a preference for the (E) LOL. Still I agree it's unfair to the (F) who already have a long trip. Not to mention if you going to Queens Plaza or Court Sq-23rd from local stops between 65th St and 36th/Northern Blvd how you get there?

 

And I didn't forget those west side clubbers looking for express (2) service overnight, and once again the main club stations are Houston, Christopher, 23 and 28. Again, I didn't know most people riding the (2) at night are going end to end on it...

 

I was told the reason 42-TS was chosen over 34-PS as the overnight (3) terminal was because there were no dispatching facilities at 34th itself and it was easier to be able to close the whole express island platform for cleaning overnight much like its 8th Avenue sibling. Many of the late night GO's had the (3) ending at Penn anyway, without being publicized. It also rarely went express during those periods.

 

The (3) would go 'local' under my plan between South Ferry and 96th thus local Bway/7th Ave riders would still get a train about every 10 minutes.

 

And for those who want the (5) to go past Shuttle status, cost efficiency wins this one. The more you get, the more you want. The 149-GC (5) people will then want it to go into Manhattan once it gets there. The 42-GC people will then want it to go to Bowling Green once it gets that far. Keep in mind once it gets past E180, now a full length train is needed as 5 cars is too short a train to fit everyone at 149-GC.

 

You correct 2-timer that any (5) extension to 149-GC or Grand Central will not happen for a while if ever due to money. With that said, take away the cost issue, the (5) should be extended at least to 149th-GC. The (2) can be SRO in that part of Bronx well past Midnight.

 

The only decent thing I've heard in this entire thread is keeping the (C) local later into the evening (instead of the first (A) local leaving 168 around 2230, midnite is more like it, which would keep (C) service until about 1145, and local (C) service in Brooklyn until 1230ish).

 

Why thank you?:cool::tup:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I also stand by my suggestion that on Friday/Saturday Nights until around 2-3am, the 1 2 4 6 E F and L trains have 15-minute headways. This is similar to say the Washington Metro running trains an extra 2 hours past their usual closing time until 3am. Or what the (MTA) provides on New Year's Eve Night until around 2-3am.

 

 

In exchange for expanded late evening/early morning weekend service to pay for it, I would run Overnight service until 8am on Sundays.

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My replies in red.

 

 

 

 

I also stand by my suggestion that on Friday/Saturday Nights until around 2-3am, the 1 2 4 6 E F and L trains have 15-minute headways. This is similar to say the Washington Metro running trains an extra 2 hours past their usual closing time until 3am. Or what the (MTA) provides on New Year's Eve Night until around 2-3am.

 

 

In exchange for expanded late evening/early morning weekend service to pay for it, I would run Overnight service until 8am on Sundays.

 

I agree with your overnight proposal and even those who work on Sundays should be able to tolerate a 15 minute wait between trains.

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I agree with your overnight proposal and even those who work on Sundays should be able to tolerate a 15 minute wait between trains.

 

 

I know you may disagree with me. Express service on all lines (except the busy Queens Blvd (E)(F) and Lex (4))would not start until 8am Sundays.

Thus the (A)(2) and (N) would still run as locals (5) as shuttle and the (3) 'semi-shuttle' only in Manhattan until 8am. Only the (R) would start at 6am on Sundays.

 

However all of the trains running on Sundays between 6am-8am would have 15-minute headways.

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As for the (A), the line is very long as it is, I would say have the Lefferts line be the 24/7 branch and have the shuttle from Far Rock run to Euclid. That would cut down on the total milage especially for an all stop (A) line at night.

 

Indeed. Plus in contrary to Lefferts, customers of Far Rock also have the LIRR. And don't count me in on the prices, I know that, I'm just talking about Far Rock having 2 public transportations services overnight and Lefferts 1 :)

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(A) Express in Manhattan, Local in Brooklyn Late Nights.

(:) Late Night Service from Coney Island to Franklin ave on the S Using Both Tracks.

(E) Run To Lefferts Blvd Late Nights.

(S) Franklin Ave No Late Night Service.

(2) Run exp in manhattan and Bronx Late night.

(3) Run Some late night trains to south ferry and the others to the Atlantic Ave Exp platforms.

(4) Some late night trains short turn at South Ferry Loop.

(5) Run to 42nd Street EXP Late nights.

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Indeed. Plus in contrary to Lefferts, customers of Far Rock also have the LIRR. And don't count me in on the prices, I know that, I'm just talking about Far Rock having 2 public transportations services overnight and Lefferts 1 :)

 

The LIRR Far Rockaway does not run between 2-4am. And only the Q113 runs 24/7 for Far Rockaway bus service.

 

For those you who want a return of robin shuttle service remember this. Riders use the Howard beach station for JFK airtrain service 24/7.

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