Overnight subway service

[Shortline Bus]

Weekends, the should run between Metropolitan and 57 Street/6 Avenue.

 

 

To Luis and FG, who suggest that the run weekends/overnights between Metro Ave and 57th/6th? How would you switch crews quickly when the runs every few minutes except for period between say 1-5am?

 

 

If anything the weekend/overnight terminal for the could be Essex instead.

[Wallyhorse]

Here's what i would do for late night changes:

run express between 145 St and Canal St. The D and E can be the locals. (D local beteen 145 St and 59 St, E normal route between 50 St and Canal St.) Why? The A is much longer line than the D and E.

 

is fine the way it is. it could use 24/7 service but thats not going to happen.

 

runs local between 145 St and 59 St. Late Night service in Brookyln is fine. Weekend service should be Local via 4 Av as well, but thats not gonna happen

 

is fine the way it is.

 

is fine the way it is.

 

should be extended back to Forest Hills, but thats not going to happen.

 

is fine the way it is.

 

is fine the way it is.

 

should be extended to 57 St/6 Av at all times.

 

should be express and terminating at 57 St/7 Av nights and weekends. (Let the Q be the full-time local between Canal St and Astoria, with late night service via Whitehall St.)

 

Why?: The N runs express in Bklyn and the Q runs local in Bklyn. Once it crosses the bridge, they switch places in Manhattan where the N runs local and the Q runs express. For that just leave the Q local and let the N run express 24/7 in Manhattan, and Brooklyn, except late nights where the N would run local between 59 St-4 Av and DeKalb Av. dont forget, the N has more stops in Brooklyn than the Q does, especially late nights when it replaces the R.

 

runs local between Canal St and Astoria via Bridge, (Late Nights via Whitehall St) and extended to Astoria 24/7.

 

runs 24/7 between 71 Av and 95 St.

 

S is fine the way it is.

 

is fine the way it is.

 

should be express 24/7 via 7 Av. (3 run Local with the 1 to South Ferry.)

Why? The 2 has a longer route than the 3 does.

 

runs local between 96 St and Chambers St, then on the 1 line to South Ferry.

 

is express 24/7 between 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge. (5 be extended to Bowling Green late nights and run Local.)

Why? The 4 has a longer route during the late nights, and it replaces the 3 between Utica Av and New Lots Av.

 

is extended to Bowling Green and runs local between 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge late nights.

 

is fine the way it is.

 

is fine the way it is.

 

The only way you'd see the run express on CPW would be if the ran 24/7 (as I suggested to Lefferts during overnight hours only in order to eliminate the Lefferts-Euclid shuttle during those hours). While having the be a local on CPW isn't the worst idea, people along CPW who need 50th, 23rd or Spring Street would be upset even though they could take the D to 7th Avenue-53rd or West 4th and transfer to the E.

 

as noted I would have go to West 4th all times with the D stopping at 14th and 23rd when the M ends at West 4th. No need to extend the M to 57th EXCEPT when the is having to run via 53rd to Queens, and if it's where a G.O. isn't affecting 63rd/Lex, if possible I would extend the M there in that situation ONLY (and ONLY then).

 

No need to switch around the N/Q during overnights.

 

I agree with 100%.

 

and : I understand why you want to do what you said, though I don't see that being done.

 

, and : I have also suggested myself, although as I would do it the 5 would ALSO terminate at Brooklyn Bridge with the 6 overnights OR BOTH would terminate at Bowling Green. Brooklyn Bridge probably makes more sense since both lines could use the City Hall Terminal.

[Shortline Bus]

Wallhyose why extend the to West 4th overnights/weekends? You realize you create backups and delays for the to switch to the 6th Ave express tracks.

 

Other than a possible extension to Essex as compromise instead, the ridership is not there for an expanded outside of all days weekdays until around 11pm. Riders can just transfer between the and when the shuttle runs.

[Roadcruiser1]

To put all other factors aside there isn't anything wrong with transferring. I don't think much riders have trouble transferring on the Jamaica Line.

[Wallyhorse]

Wallhyose why extend the to West 4th overnights/weekends? You realize you create backups and delays for the to switch to the 6th Ave express tracks.

 

Other than a possible extension to Essex as compromise instead, the ridership is not there for an expanded outside of all days weekdays until around 11pm. Riders can just transfer between the and when the shuttle runs.

 

Remember, I would have the on the local track after West 4, stopping at 14th and 23rd Streets. We are normally not talking about rush-hour levels of service.

 

That said, Essex would be a compromise for the to at least get it into Manhattan during overnights and on weekends.

[Roadcruiser1]

There is no way you are getting the to run as the Sixth Avenue Express. I don't see a need to even make it express, and you are trying to push for it? The answer is no.

[Shortline Bus]

There is no way you are getting the to run as the Sixth Avenue Express. I don't see a need to even make it express, and you are trying to push for it? The answer is no.

 

I don't think Wally was calling for a express. He was suggesting(which is a bad idea)that the shuttle on weekends/overnights be extended to West 4th. We talking a conga line.

 

Instead Essex makes more sense since it has a 'middle track' there.

[Urbanfortitude]

runs local between 145 St and 59 St. Late Night service in Brookyln is fine. Weekend service should be Local via 4 Av as well, but thats not gonna happen

 

Yeah I don't think so. The is the longer route you say? The doesn't have the burden of running from tip of the Brooklyn all the way up into the Bronx. And it already has to run local in Brooklyn & the Bronx so the relief has to come somewhere

 

should be extended to 57 St/6 Av at all times.

 

Ok what do we do with the ? You suggested no changes for the that would be affected by this change...so what do we do with it?

 

should be express and terminating at 57 St/7 Av nights and weekends. (Let the Q be the full-time local between Canal St and Astoria, with late night service via Whitehall St.)

 

Why?: The N runs express in Bklyn and the Q runs local in Bklyn. Once it crosses the bridge, they switch places in Manhattan where the N runs local and the Q runs express. For that just leave the Q local and let the N run express 24/7 in Manhattan, and Brooklyn, except late nights where the N would run local between 59 St-4 Av and DeKalb Av. dont forget, the N has more stops in Brooklyn than the Q does, especially late nights when it replaces the R.

 

What?? Explain that again for me..the doesn't run express late nights in Brooklyn and its packed to death.

 

runs local between Canal St and Astoria via Bridge, (Late Nights via Whitehall St) and extended to Astoria 24/7.

 

already does this. Astoria doesn't need two lines servicing it late nights.

runs 24/7 between 71 Av and 95 St.

 

Agreed

 

should be express 24/7 via 7 Av. (3 run Local with the 1 to South Ferry.)

Why? The 2 has a longer route than the 3 does.

 

I feel like there's something wrong with this idea but I can't put my finger on it.

 

runs local between 96 St and Chambers St, then on the line to South Ferry.

 

Oh yes now I remember, South Ferry doesn't need two lines servicing it. The runs like clockwork even late nights which it is able to do because it has the there helping with the late night loads. Remember the used to not run late nights at all. It's simply there to ease passenger loads between 96th and Times Sq. A better idea would be to terminate it at 34th or 14th st. Remember express trains are made local to supplement the late night local service.

_____________________________

is express 24/7 between 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge. (5 be extended to Bowling Green late nights and run Local.)

Why? The 4 has a longer route during the late nights, and it replaces the 3 between Utica Av and New Lots Av.

 

is extended to Bowling Green and runs local between 125 St and Brooklyn Bridge late nights.

----------------------------------

See what you did here? If the is coming down to Bowling Green late nights why not keep it and the express?

 

 

 

responses are in red. I'm just tryin to place your train of thought (no pun intended)

[Rell]

I agree that the should stay express. But the is actually longer if I'm not mistaken --

[Urbanfortitude]

I agree that the should stay express. But the is actually longer if I'm not mistaken --

 

I wouldn't never think of disagreeing with that. I grew up on the . I know better.

[MattTrain]

Just in case the is going to 71-Continental Avenues Forest Hills, the might as well go express or local, hmm...

 

This is during Late nights of course.

[TwoTimer]

I don't think Wally was calling for a express. He was suggesting(which is a bad idea)that the shuttle on weekends/overnights be extended to West 4th. We talking a conga line.

 

Instead Essex makes more sense since it has a 'middle track' there.

 

Essex's middle track is the ROW for the coming up from Chambers/Broad lol. The outer track comes up from the cut and can't be accessed from Manhattan-bound tracks coming off the bridge (without a new switch being put in just outside the portal and the cut itself being signaled for traffic in both directions).

 

The is fine as is, in fact many of those people in the local stops want east side/Bronx service.

The is fine as is, unless one wishes to bring it to Grand Concourse (turn it at 138th middle). People overestimate how busy Grand Central is during the overnight hours once MNR stops running, IT IS NOT. Union Sq/59 are busier.

[Luis1985]

responses are in red. I'm just tryin to place your train of thought (no pun intended)

 

u didnt read it correctly. when i said for the to be the full-time astoria train via Broadway Local, the would terminate at 57 St OTHER TIMES. Meaning the would be the full-time Broadway Express, and the will be the fulltime Local between Canal St and Astoria, with late night service via Whitehall St. The only train serving astoria late nights is the .

 

Also, the runs express in Brooklyn and the runs local in Brooklyn. once both trains stop at Canal St, they switch places ( via Bway Lcl, via Bway Exp). for that just keep the local and let the be the full-time express along broadway. to me, the way theyre running both the doesnt make any sense. its like saying "oh ok, lets play doctor. ur the patient and im the doctor, and after a certain time, we take turns."

 

The will still run local in Brooklyn between 59 St and DeKalb Av during the night hours.

 

The is longer for the simple fact it goes out to Far Rockaway Queens, replacing the at night. that full length with the local stops is about 3 hours long. ive done that ride before from 207 St to Far Rockaway, oh my god, never again am i doing that. that is why i say the should be the local between 145 St and 59 St only at night. the would still run during the day, which makes both express.

 

the has a longer route to Brooklyn from the Bronx, that is why i said the should be the full time 7 Av Express and the should go to South Ferry at night with the and make it go Local.

 

Same with the , if it goes to Bowling Green (Or Brooklyn Bridge) at night, it can run local so that the can be the full-time express via LEx Av. remember, the replaces the in Brooklyn, so already its gonna be a long ride because it runs local between Nevins St and New Lots Av.

 

if the ever goes to 57 St/6 Av (like it does on some weekends), it wouldnt affect service because from what i've noticed, theres a relay track north of 57 St/6 Ave, south of LEx Av-63 St that no train uses.

click on this link and youll see what i mean: http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/detail-47-63.png

[Fresh Pond]

...The is fine as is, unless one wishes to bring it to Grand Concourse (turn it at 138th middle). People overestimate how busy Grand Central is during the overnight hours once MNR stops running, IT IS NOT. Union Sq/59 are busier.

 

Trains can't get to the middle track comming from the north and they can't go north to Dyre from the middle track since the only connects to the local tracks going from/to 149-GC...for it to get to M track, it would have to go to 125 and turn around

 

...if the ever goes to 57 St/6 Av (like it does on some weekends), it wouldnt affect service because from what i've noticed, theres a relay track north of 57 St/6 Ave, south of LEx Av-63 St that no train uses.

click on this link and youll see what i mean: http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/detail-47-63.png

 

Those tracks are used to store & trains from 57 St-7 Av

[TwoTimer]

Trains can't get to the middle track comming from the north and they can't go north to Dyre from the middle track since the only connects to the local tracks going from/to 149-GC...for it to get to M track, it would have to go to 125 and turn around

 

 

 

Those tracks are used to store & trains from 57 St-7 Av

 

Nope, the can get into 138 middle from 149 lower. There's a second set of switches after it merges with the Jerome line for it to get to the middle going south, and a set going north as well. In fact the home signal leaving 138-GC going north guards these very set of switches I'm talking about going north, while the 2nd one is the actual point of no return (for the ).

[Shortline Bus]

Luis not to get off topic but the needs to be the 24/7 full time Astoria line for a reason. Here my comments from another thread on why the 'B and "D switched terminals in Brooklyn when the Manhattan Bridge fully reopened in 2004.

 

"My brother does work for the and I can give you an asnwer from what he heard from operations planning. I try to be as brief as possible and sorry to those who have the reasons before.

 

 

1)Brighton Line-According to studies and the changing demograhpics especially at the Brighton Beach and Prospect Park/7th Ave stops, majority of riders wanted a 24/7 service to Broadway line stations over 6th Avenue stations.

Also that so-called survey also stated that Brighton riders wanted at least full time weekday service to Grand St and 6th Ave service. Thus since the which was not a 24/7 line on the West End was switched to the brighton line.

 

So as a result the agency decided to keep the as a 24/7 line between Manhattan and the Brighton Line.

 

 

2)West End Line riders wanted a 24/7 direct line to 6th Ave and Grand St stations. With a huge growing Asian population at or near West End stations especially in Bensonhurst, the decided to end the overnight west end shuttle and provide a 24/7 line to 6th Ave and Grand St station, the . Also the West End wanted also a direct train to Lower Manhattan. Thus the reason the was remained on that line after the Manhattan Bridge project.

 

3)Sea Beach line riders wanted full time 7 day a week or even 24/7 service via the Manhattan Bridge and Broadway Express stations. Thus the reason the returned to it's pre 1986 4th Ave/Broadway Express routing.

 

4)Astoria Line riders also wanted at least full time Weekday Direct service on Manhattan Broadway Local stations. For that reason that why the 'w' stayed around after the Manhattan Bridge re-opened for full subway service. However the 'W"was gone by 2009 due to the current fiscal crisis.

 

Hope this give the brief reasons on why the and were switched in 2004and hope you understand. I don't buy the so called survey but I don't think the and switch was the worst idea in the world.

 

The only big issue IMO is that the should stop at Dekalb on weekends so that Brighton Line could have a direct transfer to 6th Ave/Central Park west stations."

 

 

 

 

u didnt read it correctly. when i said for the to be the full-time astoria train via Broadway Local, the would terminate at 57 St OTHER TIMES. Meaning the would be the full-time Broadway Express, and the will be the fulltime Local between Canal St and Astoria, with late night service via Whitehall St. The only train serving astoria late nights is the .

 

Also, the runs express in Brooklyn and the runs local in Brooklyn. once both trains stop at Canal St, they switch places ( via Bway Lcl, via Bway Exp). for that just keep the local and let the be the full-time express along broadway. to me, the way theyre running both the doesnt make any sense. its like saying "oh ok, lets play doctor. ur the patient and im the doctor, and after a certain time, we take turns."

 

The will still run local in Brooklyn between 59 St and DeKalb Av during the night hours.

 

The is longer for the simple fact it goes out to Far Rockaway Queens, replacing the at night. that full length with the local stops is about 3 hours long. ive done that ride before from 207 St to Far Rockaway, oh my god, never again am i doing that. that is why i say the should be the local between 145 St and 59 St only at night. the would still run during the day, which makes both express.

 

the has a longer route to Brooklyn from the Bronx, that is why i said the should be the full time 7 Av Express and the '3' should go to South Ferry at night with the and make it go Local.

 

Same with the , if it goes to Bowling Green (Or Brooklyn Bridge) at night, it can run local so that the can be the full-time express via LEx Av. remember, the replaces the in Brooklyn, so already its gonna be a long ride because it runs local between Nevins St and New Lots Av.

 

if the ever goes to 57 St/6 Av (like it does on some weekends), it wouldnt affect service because from what i've noticed, theres a relay track north of 57 St/6 Ave, south of LEx Av-63 St that no train uses.

click on this link and youll see what i mean: http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/detail-47-63.png

[Q43LTD]

The should not go to South Ferry at late nights. There is not enough capacity at SF.

[Urbanfortitude]

The is longer for the simple fact it goes out to Far Rockaway Queens, replacing the at night. that full length with the local stops is about 3 hours long. ive done that ride before from 207 St to Far Rockaway, oh my god, never again am i doing that. that is why i say the should be the local between 145 St and 59 St only at night. the would still run during the day, which makes both express.

 

 

ignoring the rest of the post in this quote because I really have no counter argument for that...unfortunately with the and you have a real lose lose situation because both of them late nights as they are long routes. If you make either local...that makes it a lengthier ride. The biggest suggestion to fix this one in my opinion does actually fall back on the . What I would probably take a stab at is the idea of service terminating at WTC late nights. That way & service can run express in manhattan and you have your running local in Brooklyn. I look at this suggestion with my head tilted slightly because I don't fully believe in it right now. But it is something to throw out there.

[TwoTimer]

ignoring the rest of the post in this quote because I really have no counter argument for that...unfortunately with the and you have a real lose lose situation because both of them late nights as they are long routes. If you make either local...that makes it a lengthier ride. The biggest suggestion to fix this one in my opinion does actually fall back on the . What I would probably take a stab at is the idea of service terminating at WTC late nights. That way & service can run express in manhattan and you have your running local in Brooklyn. I look at this suggestion with my head tilted slightly because I don't fully believe in it right now. But it is something to throw out there.

 

And then you have the same issues with the at South Ferry, the already terminates there. Maybe 2Av is an option (with the same tilted head lol).

 

And yes, when I operate the late evenings, Grand Street is PACKED both directions, even when my train is on time.

[MikeGerald]

In many of the suggestions, I hear a wish to return to the "old way" of doing things.

 

For example there is a suggestion for the C-train to run from 168th Street to WTC - a direct suggestion for a return of the AA-train (which ran non-rush hours 24/7/365) between those same stops from the 1930's to the mid-1970's, and was eliminated during the mid-1970's fiscal crisis.

 

Another example is the N-train's midnight hour run as a local from Astoria to Brooklyn, which basically is the old RR-train midnight service - except for the different terminals (Coney Island instead of 95th Street) in Brookyn.

 

Another example is the suggestion of the Q-train becoming the Broadway-Manhattan local - the Astoria local/Broadway local/Brighton local of the old QT service of the Brighton line.

 

Then there is the suggestion that the return to midnight hour express service is a benefit to the riders. Transit fans seem to love express routes because they try to create so many of them.

 

There is a strong argument that many riders benefit from the all-local midnight hour service - because making connections between the local and the express trains becomes a non-issue.

 

Too many transit fans simply do not remember traveling the subways late at night, boarding at a local station - taking the local train to an express station - as one watches the express train leaving the station - meaning another 20 minute wait for the next express. In such situations of which there were plenty - the express did not "save time" become just a source for aggravation.

 

Now riders traveling a short distance can take whatever train comes - good - while those who need a particular train can just wait anywhere along that line for it.

 

Just my thoughts.

Mike

[TwoTimer]

As I said earlier, during the midnight hours, riders are just happy to make "progress" toward their destination, in whatever shape or form that may be. They feel safer on the train itself (even if its local) slowly chugging up towards their destination than awaiting an express train on a platform. Express trains are no longer "fast" when one has to consider the wait times for them. Most people transfer from local to express trains in hopes of catching the local in front (most situations arise from the , or getting in front of the local they were on in (the vs ). This doesn't happen during the midnight hours unless their destination was a gap station where both trains stop at (like 125th St IRT).

 

Also to be taken in consideration is that there are no longer agents in many of these stations (those positions were eliminated recently) so think about that as a casual rider, not a railfan thirsting for a RFW on an express train.

[Urbanfortitude]

In many of the suggestions, I hear a wish to return to the "old way" of doing things.

 

For example there is a suggestion for the C-train to run from 168th Street to WTC - a direct suggestion for a return of the AA-train (which ran non-rush hours 24/7/365) between those same stops from the 1930's to the mid-1970's, and was eliminated during the mid-1970's fiscal crisis.

 

Another example is the N-train's midnight hour run as a local from Astoria to Brooklyn, which basically is the old RR-train midnight service - except for the different terminals (Coney Island instead of 95th Street) in Brookyn.

 

Another example is the suggestion of the Q-train becoming the Broadway-Manhattan local - the Astoria local/Broadway local/Brighton local of the old QT service of the Brighton line.

 

Then there is the suggestion that the return to midnight hour express service is a benefit to the riders. Transit fans seem to love express routes because they try to create so many of them.

 

There is a strong argument that many riders benefit from the all-local midnight hour service - because making connections between the local and the express trains becomes a non-issue.

 

Too many transit fans simply do not remember traveling the subways late at night, boarding at a local station - taking the local train to an express station - as one watches the express train leaving the station - meaning another 20 minute wait for the next express. In such situations of which there were plenty - the express did not "save time" become just a source for aggravation.

 

Now riders traveling a short distance can take whatever train comes - good - while those who need a particular train can just wait anywhere along that line for it.

 

Just my thoughts.

Mike

 

To be fair I did say I suggest the idea with a bit of hesitance. Ever since I moved out to Brooklyn I find myself on the trains a lot later. So I understand the aggravation of which you speak. I do find myself wishing though that the had express service down here just to get me to 50th st faster lol.

[GreatOne2k]

Essex's middle track is the ROW for the coming up from Chambers/Broad lol. The outer track comes up from the cut and can't be accessed from Manhattan-bound tracks coming off the bridge (without a new switch being put in just outside the portal and the cut itself being signaled for traffic in both directions).

 

The is fine as is, in fact many of those people in the local stops want east side/Bronx service.

The is fine as is, unless one wishes to bring it to Grand Concourse (turn it at 138th middle). People overestimate how busy Grand Central is during the overnight hours once MNR stops running, IT IS NOT. Union Sq/59 are busier.

 

should run express until around 1am though (recently the first weekday local was made the last express right around midnight, now leaves Flatbush about 8 minutes later) or at least until the train drops down to 20 minutes.

 

could also run to 125 St to connect with the train.

 

The could also run to/from Bowling Green until 12-1am and then run whatever shuttle service (125, 149, 180) after that.

[Urbanfortitude]

I really want to know why express service on the & trains ceases around 10:30ish (i dont have the exact times). While other trains cease theirs like around midnight. ( I'm lookin at you.)

[Shortline Bus]

I really want to know why express service on the & trains ceases around 10:30ish (i dont have the exact times). While other trains cease theirs like around midnight. ( I'm lookin at you.)

 

Not to netpick but barring a "GO" the is always 'express' along both Central Park West and 6th Ave. You mean the ending at 11pm right?

The as i stated earlier should run at least until 1230am for people coming 'home' from the 2nd shift and also for events at MSG i.e Knick/Ranger games and concerts.