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Subway-duplicating bus routes/segments


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During last year's service cuts, some of the cuts involved bus routes/segments that supposedly duplicated subway lines. This included the B39, B51, and Q24 west of Broadway Junction. However, there are some other "duplicative" services still on the map. Here are some that I've found:

 

Q53 west of Queens Center Mall (duplicates M/R/7)

Q112 west of Lefferts Boulevard (duplicates A)

B46 west of Myrtle Avenue (duplicates J/M/Z)

Q56 (mostly duplicates J/Z)

Bx4 (mostly duplicates 2/5/6)

 

Do these and other similar services have their ridership adversely affected by subway duplication? If so, does anyone expect them to be cut as part of future budget reductions?

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A lot of people get off the 53 at Woodhaven but there are some who continue to take it past. I take the 53 to Grand Ave to transfer for the 58, some may need to take it to 74th to transfer for the buses there, and there are buses by Woodside too i think

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During last year's service cuts, some of the cuts involved bus routes/segments that supposedly duplicated subway lines. This included the B39, B51, and Q24 west of Broadway Junction. However, there are some other "duplicative" services still on the map. Here are some that I've found:

 

Q53 west of Queens Center Mall (duplicates M/R/7)

Q112 west of Lefferts Boulevard (duplicates A)

B46 west of Myrtle Avenue (duplicates J/M/Z)

Q56 (mostly duplicates J/Z)

Bx4 (mostly duplicates 2/5/6)

 

Do these and other similar services have their ridership adversely affected by subway duplication? If so, does anyone expect them to be cut as part of future budget reductions?

 

for some bizzare reason they still have ridership I could never understand

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During last year's service cuts, some of the cuts involved bus routes/segments that supposedly duplicated subway lines. This included the B39, B51, and Q24 west of Broadway Junction. However, there are some other "duplicative" services still on the map. Here are some that I've found:

 

Q53 west of Queens Center Mall (duplicates M/R/7)

Q112 west of Lefferts Boulevard (duplicates A)

B46 west of Myrtle Avenue (duplicates J/M/Z)

Q56 (mostly duplicates J/Z)

Bx4 (mostly duplicates 2/5/6)

 

Do these and other similar services have their ridership adversely affected by subway duplication? If so, does anyone expect them to be cut as part of future budget reductions?

 

The MTA originally wanted to eliminate the M10, Q56, Bx4, B25, and B75 because they duplicated the subway. Since then, they've settled for only eliminating a couple of routes that duplicate the subway (the B13, the ones you mentioned and there are probably a couple of others I can't think of right now)

 

The remaining services that duplicate the subway bascically still have high ridership, even with the subway covering the same route.

 

For example, the Q112 allows people the option of additional (A) service at Rockaway Blvd (Service runs roughly every 15 minutes on the Lefferts branch off-peak). It also allows for an easier connection for passengers going to the Rockaways (on the (A)), and people connecting to the Q11/Q21/Q53.

 

The Bx4 allows people along the eastern portion of Westchester Avenue to have the option of getting the (2), since the (6) doesn't serve the East Side.

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The MTA originally wanted to eliminate the M10, Q56, Bx4, B25, and B75 because they duplicated the subway. Since then, they've settled for only eliminating a couple of routes that duplicate the subway (the B13, the ones you mentioned and there are probably a couple of others I can't think of right now)

 

The remaining services that duplicate the subway bascically still have high ridership, even with the subway covering the same route.

 

For example, the Q112 allows people the option of additional (A) service at Rockaway Blvd (Service runs roughly every 15 minutes on the Lefferts branch off-peak). It also allows for an easier connection for passengers going to the Rockaways (on the (A)), and people connecting to the Q11/Q21/Q53.

 

The Bx4 allows people along the eastern portion of Westchester Avenue to have the option of getting the (2), since the (6) doesn't serve the East Side.

 

Yeah and that's because those people prefer the bus over the subway.

 

for some bizzare reason they still have ridership I could never understand

 

It's not bizarre. Just because the subway tends to move faster than the local bus doesn't mean that everyone prefers the subway over the bus. Before getting on to the subway, one usually has to walk a bit further to get to the subway, then go down or up stairs and then wait for the train and in the summertime that also means waiting in hot, unairconditioned stations. These days with all of the signal problems and delays, by the time you get to your destination and then get up all of the stairs and walk to where you need to go, you'd be better off taking the bus. Buses tend to be closer for a lot of folks since it makes more stops, plus there are fewer steps with all of the low floor buses and you can wait in the shade if it's hot. If you live near a limited stop bus, the commute time can be as quick as the subway if you time it right. The (MTA) has already acknowledged that subways are running later, which means that they're clearly moving slower too and are becoming delayed and perhaps less attractive for some folks, especially since they're also dirtier too. Then there is also the bum factor on the subway that isn't an issue on the bus and safety. In sum, speed is NOT the only factor when deciding whether to take the bus or the subway.

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Yeah and that's because those people prefer the bus over the subway.

 

 

It's not bizarre. Just because the subway tends to move faster than the local bus doesn't mean that everyone prefers the subway over the bus. Before getting on to the subway, one usually has to walk a bit further to get to the subway, then go down or up stairs and then wait for the train and in the summertime that also means waiting in hot, unairconditioned stations. These days with all of the signal problems and delays, by the time you get to your destination and then get up all of the stairs and walk to where you need to go, you'd be better off taking the bus. Buses tend to be closer for a lot of folks since it makes more stops, plus there are fewer steps with all of the low floor buses and you can wait in the shade if it's hot. If you live near a limited stop bus, the commute time can be as quick as the subway if you time it right. The (MTA) has already acknowledged that subways are running later, which means that they're clearly moving slower too and are becoming delayed and perhaps less attractive for some folks, especially since they're also dirtier too. Then there is also the bum factor on the subway that isn't an issue on the bus and safety. In sum, speed is NOT the only factor when deciding whether to take the bus or the subway.

 

I know that. I was just giving examples of when it is better to take the bus over the subway.

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I know that. I was just giving examples of when it is better to take the bus over the subway.

 

That's interesting because you push for less bus service... I quite frankly am attracted less and less to the subway, which is interesting and I think that's because I'm finding it to be slower and slower, dirtier and overall less appealing than the bus. Perhaps the (MTA) should be looking at ways to improve the subway? Sure they're doing things to allow for more trains to run, but what are they doing to make commutes quicker or less delayed? Not much in that department. Also, if you notice, the so called "express trains" tend to run the least and ones like the (4) and (5) run slower than the local (6).

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The MTA originally wanted to eliminate the M10, Q56, Bx4, B25, and B75 because they duplicated the subway. Since then, they've settled for only eliminating a couple of routes that duplicate the subway (the B13, the ones you mentioned and there are probably a couple of others I can't think of right now)

 

The remaining services that duplicate the subway bascically still have high ridership, even with the subway covering the same route.

 

For example, the Q112 allows people the option of additional (A) service at Rockaway Blvd (Service runs roughly every 15 minutes on the Lefferts branch off-peak). It also allows for an easier connection for passengers going to the Rockaways (on the (A)), and people connecting to the Q11/Q21/Q53.

 

The Bx4 allows people along the eastern portion of Westchester Avenue to have the option of getting the (2), since the (6) doesn't serve the East Side.

The (B75) was eliminated because it duped the (F)(G). But it was only as far as Prospect Park

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During last year's service cuts, some of the cuts involved bus routes/segments that supposedly duplicated subway lines. This included the B39, B51, and Q24 west of Broadway Junction. However, there are some other "duplicative" services still on the map. Here are some that I've found:

 

Q53 west of Queens Center Mall (duplicates M/R/7)

Q112 west of Lefferts Boulevard (duplicates A)

B46 west of Myrtle Avenue (duplicates J/M/Z)

Q56 (mostly duplicates J/Z)

Bx4 (mostly duplicates 2/5/6)

 

Do these and other similar services have their ridership adversely affected by subway duplication? If so, does anyone expect them to be cut as part of future budget reductions?

 

Q53 only duplicates those lines for a short segment.

Q112 is for a reason, aside from the fact that it goes to Jamaica/Parsons, the line carries disabled passengers as well.

B46, same as the Q53

Bx4, same as the Q112.

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That's interesting because you push for less bus service... I quite frankly am attracted less and less to the subway, which is interesting and I think that's because I'm finding it to be slower and slower, dirtier and overall less appealing than the bus. Perhaps the (MTA) should be looking at ways to improve the subway? Sure they're doing things to allow for more trains to run, but what are they doing to make commutes quicker or less delayed? Not much in that department. Also, if you notice, the so called "express trains" tend to run the least and ones like the (4) and (5) run slower than the local (6).

 

Yeah. I push for less bus service if there is not enough ridership to support it.

 

In a perfect world where all subway stations were ADA-accessable, trains ran more frequently, and people only had to travel between 2 areas with subway service, yes I would eliminate the parallel bus routes and make everybody take the subway. As we all know that isn't the case so I don't know why you keep bringing this up, as I've made that point clear before.

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Yeah. I push for less bus service if there is not enough ridership to support it.

 

In a perfect world where all subway stations were ADA-accessable, trains ran more frequently, and people only had to travel between 2 areas with subway service, yes I would eliminate the parallel bus routes and make everybody take the subway. As we all know that isn't the case so I don't know why you keep bringing this up, as I've made that point clear before.

 

Even if that were the case that is still a terrible idea to lump everyone onto the subway. And if something happens with the subway, then you'd have a mess on your hands with no bus service or alternative. You're viewing it as dollars and cents as always, and I'm viewing it from a practical point of view.

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During last year's service cuts, some of the cuts involved bus routes/segments that supposedly duplicated subway lines. This included the B39, B51, and Q24 west of Broadway Junction. However, there are some other "duplicative" services still on the map. Here are some that I've found:

 

Q53 west of Queens Center Mall (duplicates M/R/7)

Q112 west of Lefferts Boulevard (duplicates A)

B46 west of Myrtle Avenue (duplicates J/M/Z)

Q56 (mostly duplicates J/Z)

Bx4 (mostly duplicates 2/5/6)

 

Do these and other similar services have their ridership adversely affected by subway duplication? If so, does anyone expect them to be cut as part of future budget reductions?

 

I hope you are not implying that the rest of the routes that parallel subway lines should get cut....

 

First question

But to answer that 1st question, you'll find that those that ride bus routes along the same corridor as a subway runs along... and those that ride that subway route along in, are either at an interchangable rate (for longer distances w/i that borough, or actually more on the bus end, if they're traveling mid-longer distances....There is no drastic, or even noticable decrease in ridership (if there even is any)... especially on the Bx4 & B25... b/c they run along the subway...

 

1] I'll take the B44 & the (2)/(5) is an example...

If there's someone traveling b/w Sterling st & Church av, you'll find more people opting for the bus; large in part b/c the bus is more frequent.... If someone is traveling b/w President st & the junction (Flatbush av terminal), you'll find more people taking the train, but those willing to ride it out from Eastern Pkwy - Flatbush av on the B44 isn't out of the question.... Now that I think about it, I am noticing a decreasing amount of people that use President st....

 

2] Another example: The B25 & the (A)(C).... there are more people that use the route as far as Utica, to get to downtown brooklyn... those people know (A)'s are gonna be bombarded by Queens riders, and quite frankly, the (A) @ Hoyt-schermerhorn doesn't appeal to the masses, and the A @ Jay (outside for xfer purposes to/from the (F)), leaves most those riders w/ a healthy walk to get to their destination while downtown....

 

My point - The B25 is far more beneficial to downtown seekers....

 

What I'm trying to illustrate with those examples, is that.... It's not detrimental to have a bus route along the same path of that of a subway line at all... the MTA is simply seeking to eliminate routes of the type b/c they're tryna scrounge & save in w/e way they can - and buses that travel along roads w/ which subways run above/below, is a far easier route to target.....

 

 

Second question

Sadly, yes I do expect certain routes of the type to get eliminated.... the one that immediately comes to mind is the Bx39 along White Plains rd. in the Bronx

(which I still feel was a setup from the start of that last alteration).....

------

 

 

As for the routes you list:

- There are only 2 stops on the Q53 b/w 61st & 74th on the (7)... and it's at the stations themselves; there are no Q53 stops along Roosevelt av.... the paralleling of the QB local where it branches north of QB, is negligible.... and as far as the Rockaways, well bus service is THE substitute for the lack of subway service on the Beach 116th spur... There is no interchangability b/w bus or train that goes on down there....Usage is 100%, the bus [Q53] b/w Beach 116th (S) & Rockaway blvd (A)....

 

- Q112, coming from Jamaica, most people don't ride it past Lefferts blvd (A)... I wouldn't use that as an example..... The 112 goes to Rockaway blvd to provide for connections w/ other buses.... that's it...

 

- B46 is another bad example... Usage along broadway, within broadway, is almost nil.... (J)(M) riders & the B46 along broadway, those are 2 very separate groups of riders....

 

- Q56 I would say is interchangable w/ the (J) above it... I would say more people seek the train over the Q56... but still I would not agree w/ canning it outright, as it serves a part of Jamaica where is does see significant usage....

 

- Bx4... that line is articulated for a reason... the (2) in the Bronx is sloooow; in some cases, the bus is actually the faster ride.... it's stint east of the Bronx river (where it parallels the (6)), intra bronx usage, I would say it's 50-50 (except if the 4 is right there at Westchester Square, or Parkchester).... those seeking to get to Co-op (I meant Pelham bay Park B)), are takin the train...

 

One thing that's overlooked about the Bx4 is that, it does provide a connection b/w the (2) & the (6)....

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Even if that were the case that is still a terrible idea to lump everyone onto the subway. And if something happens with the subway, then you'd have a mess on your hands with no bus service or alternative. You're viewing it as dollars and cents as always, and I'm viewing it from a practical point of view.

 

In many cases this is true like in NYC not so in other places. ya have a point.

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A lot of people get off the 53 at Woodhaven but there are some who continue to take it past. I take the 53 to Grand Ave to transfer for the 58, some may need to take it to 74th to transfer for the buses there, and there are buses by Woodside too i think

Yeah, you get a good crowd that gets off the Q53 @ 61st....

 

If you're talkin about the NB Q53, I'd say more ppl get off at Woodhaven, then at 61st, then at 74th....

 

If you're talkin about the SB Q53, there's more ppl gettin ON at 74th, then at 61st.... by time it reaches Woodhaven, you just hope enough ppl are getting off, so you can even get on... The prollem is, the ppl. gettin on & off @ Grand cancels itself out; & there aren't near as many people that get off 53's at Woodhaven, Grand, or 74th....

 

^^ Their solution to this problem or crowding is to have Q11's have to leave in two's (or, an 11 right behind a 21) @ Woodhaven b/c of the crowding on the Q53 at the 61st & 74th st stops...

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I hope you are not implying that the rest of the routes that parallel subway lines should get cut....

 

First question

But to answer that 1st question, you'll find that those that ride bus routes along the same corridor as a subway runs along... and those that ride that subway route along in, are either at an interchangable rate (for longer distances w/i that borough, or actually more on the bus end, if they're traveling mid-longer distances....There is no drastic, or even noticable decrease in ridership (if there even is any)... especially on the Bx4 & B25... b/c they run along the subway...

 

1] I'll take the B44 & the (2)/(5) is an example...

If there's someone traveling b/w Sterling st & Church av, you'll find more people opting for the bus; large in part b/c the bus is more frequent.... If someone is traveling b/w President st & the junction (Flatbush av terminal), you'll find more people taking the train, but those willing to ride it out from Eastern Pkwy - Flatbush av on the B44 isn't out of the question.... Now that I think about it, I am noticing a decreasing amount of people that use President st....

 

2] Another example: The B25 & the (A)(C).... there are more people that use the route as far as Utica, to get to downtown brooklyn... those people know (A)'s are gonna be bombarded by Queens riders, and quite frankly, the (A) @ Hoyt-schermerhorn doesn't appeal to the masses, and the A @ Jay (outside for xfer purposes to/from the (F)), leaves most those riders w/ a healthy walk to get to their destination while downtown....

 

My point - The B25 is far more beneficial to downtown seekers....

 

What I'm trying to illustrate with those examples, is that.... It's not detrimental to have a bus route along the same path of that of a subway line at all... the MTA is simply seeking to eliminate routes of the type b/c they're tryna scrounge & save in w/e way they can - and buses that travel along roads w/ which subways run above/below, is a far easier route to target.....

 

 

Second question

Sadly, yes I do expect certain routes of the type to get eliminated.... the one that immediately comes to mind is the Bx39 along White Plains rd. in the Bronx

(which I still feel was a setup from the start of that last alteration).....

------

 

 

As for the routes you list:

- There are only 2 stops on the Q53 b/w 61st & 74th on the (7)... and it's at the stations themselves; there are no Q53 stops along Roosevelt av.... the paralleling of the QB local where it branches north of QB, is negligible.... and as far as the Rockaways, well bus service is THE substitute for the lack of subway service on the Beach 116th spur... There is no interchangability b/w bus or train that goes on down there....Usage is 100%, the bus [Q53] b/w Beach 116th (S) & Rockaway blvd (A)....

 

- Q112, coming from Jamaica, most people don't ride it past Lefferts blvd (A)... I wouldn't use that as an example..... The 112 goes to Rockaway blvd to provide for connections w/ other buses.... that's it...

 

- B46 is another bad example... Usage along broadway, within broadway, is almost nil.... (J)(M) riders & the B46 along broadway, those are 2 very separate groups of riders....

 

- Q56 I would say is interchangable w/ the (J) above it... I would say more people seek the train over the Q56... but still I would not agree w/ canning it outright, as it serves a part of Jamaica where is does see significant usage....

 

- Bx4... that line is articulated for a reason... the (2) in the Bronx is sloooow; in some cases, the bus is actually the faster ride.... it's stint east of the Bronx river (where it parallels the (6)), intra bronx usage, I would say it's 50-50 (except if the 4 is right there at Westchester Square, or Parkchester).... those seeking to get to Co-op (I meant Pelham bay Park B)), are takin the train...

 

One thing that's overlooked about the Bx4 is that, it does provide a connection b/w the (2) & the (6)....

 

In addition, the fact that the (2) is slow and pretty inconsistent along White Plains Road results in solid ridership for the Bx39.

 

For a similar reason on the Queens Blvd local trains (especially on weekends when the (R) is the only QB local) is why the Q53 gets pretty high ridership between Queens Center and 74th Street.

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In addition, the fact that the (2) is slow and pretty inconsistent along White Plains Road results in solid ridership for the Bx39.

...part of which was stolen due to truncating 41's....

 

But anyway, both of your points are valid & well taken.....

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