Mangano Selects Veolia to Operate Long Island Bus

[checkmatechamp13]

I've never taken those things.... just like I wouldn't want to stuck on a highway in a dollar van, I wouldn't want to be stuck on those minibuses they run out there....

 

As far as the MTA handing over its express buses to private contractors... For discussion's sake (b/c we know that'd never happen), I'm kind of on the fence on that.... one, b/c I do think the current 5.50 fare is a bit much... and I do think riders would support (use) a private contractor's services if the fare was around, say, 4 bucks... but OTOH, it would be me succumbing to the idea that express buses are the reason that operating costs & what not, are as high as they are... and I wouldn't be in favor of eliminating jobs outright like that (even if you have some of those drivers working local routes, there would still be spillage/leftover drivers that would be screwed)....

 

But express buses are more expensive to operate than local buses. You can give all the justification you want, but the nature of express bus service is that is it expensive to operate.

 

As far as eliminating the jobs go, it can be done through attrition (not replacing people who retire). So in the beginning, there would be excess drivers and excess service (and that might appease the express bus riders who are worried about working out all of the kinks in the service that occur in the beginning)

[Joel Up Front]

ITT: Someone that believes Mangano and every holds every word he says to be 100% true.

[checkmatechamp13]

The point was to have choice period not about whether the or a private operate can hold them hostage. That's obvious. If you've got choices it creates competition, which currently doesn't really exist with the as the main player in town.

 

As for Mangano, if he can get the service that Nassau needs paying little in subsidizes, then why shouldn't he??? Why should the taxpayers of Nassau pay outrageous tax rates just because folks like you don't think that Mangano is giving transportation companies a bigger chunk of taxpayer money, money that they're worked hard for and that belongs to them?? For someone who is supposed to believe in efficiency and less waste, your argument makes no sense. Like I said, we would have a better idea of whether the subsidy he is providing was sufficient enough or not if we have competition here to begin with. I am so hoping that this deal works out this way I can see what the nay sayers have to complain about then. I'm sorry, but there are other options besides the and it is about time that folks exercise their rights to use them.

 

So then I guess we'll just have to see if the subsidy he's providing is sufficient to provide a decent amount of service. If it turns out that it is, all the better for everybody.

 

The reason why everybody is saying that it won't work is because Suffolk and Westchester contribute much more to their transit systems for a similar level of service.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The rest of what you're sayin, I'm w/ you on....

 

However, I'm not as quick to push to the side, how Nassau shortchanged the MTA... That is a factor... It shows how buses are thought of in a nutshell, running in & through the county... If you place enough of an importance on something, you're gonna put more money towards it as possible...

 

Yes, people need change... I'm not up here advocating that the MTA should be the only operator out there.... but I'm not gonna advocate for another operator that's gonna perform (or try to perform) the same level of service (of what was LIB) til 2012, and after that point, a dropoff (in any facet), either..... That's what I would worry about... I'd also worry about stability, but it's too early in the game to start talkin about that....

 

Mangano has to show the people (of Nassau) that he does care about surface transit out there (including, ways to encourage ridership & improving of what will be, the service itself).... simply finding another operator is one step...

 

It's like a father wanting kudos for buying milk & diapers for HIS children....

You don't get attaboy's for somethin you're supposed to do....

 

 

I think from the press conference that Mangano gave it's clear what he wants to do and he made a good point about Nassau county having some of the highest property taxes in the nation. You can't just tiptoe past that and say that isn't a factor.

 

I'm also not necessarily advocating that we need to do away with the , but people do need choice and I think that this is a step in the right direction.

[B35 via Church]

I think from the press conference that Mangano gave it's clear what he wants to do and he made a good point about Nassau county having some of the highest property taxes in the nation. You can't just tiptoe past that and say that isn't a factor.

We all know about Nassau's high amount of taxes... Never said it wasn't a factor.....

 

I'm not makin as big of a deal out of it, in regards to the issue at hand here, which is public transportation....

 

Bottom line, regardless of either of our main sticking points... I wanna see how far, diligent, and how serious Mangano is about public transportation-by-bus in his county... I'm not sure of Nassau's overall population, but 100k riders is pretty significant.... even if those riders are emanating from Queens....

 

 

But express buses are more expensive to operate than local buses. You can give all the justification you want, but the nature of express bus service is that is it expensive to operate.

 

As far as eliminating the jobs go, it can be done through attrition (not replacing people who retire). So in the beginning, there would be excess drivers and excess service (and that might appease the express bus riders who are worried about working out all of the kinks in the service that occur in the beginning)

 

Not that much more (expensive) for me to sit up & say that express buses should be handed over to a private company & let them eat the (supposed) egregious costs.... You can try each avenue you want, in lookin for ways to derive by dirt cheap fares...

 

....and attrition? What do I care how people are laid off; hell, give those drivers severance for years on end, for the matter.... The fact that drivers would get laid off, period, simply for that reason, is (for lack of a better term) f***'d up....

 

Guaranteed you wouldn't bring that up if you were one of those drivers.

[checkmatechamp13]

Never said it wasn't a factor.....

 

I'm not makin as big of a deal out of it.....

 

 

 

Not that much more (expensive) for me to sit up & say that express buses should be handed over to a private company & let them eat the (supposed) egregious costs.... You can try each avenue you want, in lookin for ways to derive by dirt cheap fares...

 

....and attrition? What do I care how people are laid off; hell, give those drivers severance for years on end.... The fact that drivers would get laid off, period, simply for that reason, is (for lack of a better term) f***'d up....

 

Guaranteed you wouldn't bring that up if you were one of those drivers.

 

But all attrition is is just not replacing the drivers who retire. The existing drivers would still receive their current levels of pay, but the company just wouldn't hire as many new drivers to replace the ones that left.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Never said it wasn't a factor.....

I'm not makin as big of a deal out of it.....

 

 

Oh, I know you aren't, but some people are forgetting that and are just obsessed with the running the show out there, but they don't understand the costs involved in this and have no problem having others pay for the service as if they don't have their own financial issues. This is not the time or place to go raising taxes on people, regardless of whether they are middle class, upper middle class or wealthy.

 

But all attrition is is just not replacing the drivers who retire. The existing drivers would still receive their current levels of pay, but the company just wouldn't hire as many new drivers to replace the ones that left.

 

You're missing the big picture here and looking solely at what attrition is... Maybe you should re-read your post again...

[PinePower]

It's Veolia:

 

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/nassau/pick-to-run-li-bus-has-d-amato-tie-1.2947117

 

Not at all suprised. D'amato is playing a huge role in this, lets not forget MTA board member Nancy Shevell has contributed large amounts of money to D'amato as well.

Mangano claims he will be able to keep the current service levels and fares till the end of 2012, but the math doesn't add up.

And there's many ethics issues, too. And if Metrocard isn't accepted it will hurt ridership levels. In order to suceed it must follow the example of Westchester's Bee-Line, but Westchester pays good money for its bus system.

The County Legislature and NIFA should not rubber stamp this contract, especially when the details are still not known.

[PinePower]

I would be shocked if the MTA took over Suffolk Transit, especially with the MTA leaving Nassau. Kind of pointless!

I doubt Suffolk would ever allow the MTA to takeover, from what I've been told there is great resistance, even among the riders.

It is possible that a new transit authority be formed to run buses in Nassau and Suffolk (LITA, NSTA).

Why would the MTA want Suffolk's routes which have much lower ridership than Nassau's, some of which actually make money.

 

 

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you will..... There are repercussions to unfavorable actions (such as jacking up the fare to "whatever they want"), and I'm not necessarily referring to fines & penalties either....

 

The MTA does act as if they're a monopoly.... that was his point... again, I mention the talks of takeovers of SCT & BeeLine..... I'm glad LL (liberty lines) didn't fold like a cheap rug, and I hope SCT doesn't do the same...

 

I'm not in the bus industry (or follow up enough on the ones I have heard of) to suggest/say if there's a better private company out there.... but I'm not goin sit up here & say the MTA shouldn't be runnin our system; it aint THAT bad (yet)....

 

Far as jitneys go, I honestly think if we ever were to go to a zone based fare, you'd see a hell of a lot more of them than you do now here in NYC (referring to the dollar vans & what not)... but since we have a flat fare, you're not gonna see an actual network of em (the way they have out in ft. lee, paterson, passaic, etc)... I know you're an advocate for free buses & what not, but let's not get ridiculous in actually showing zeal for jitney ran service on a large scale here in the boroughs.....

 

the dollar vans/cabs that run in Brooklyn & Queens, should remain serving the corridors that they do in their respective borough... not runnin to Manhattan like the jitneys out in Jersey do.... Be careful what you wish for....

[PinePower]

The point was to have choice period not about whether the or a private operate can hold them hostage. That's obvious. If you've got choices it creates competition, which currently doesn't really exist with the as the main player in town.

 

As for Mangano, if he can get the service that Nassau needs paying little in subsidizes, then why shouldn't he??? Why should the taxpayers of Nassau pay outrageous tax rates just because folks like you don't think that Mangano is giving transportation companies a bigger chunk of taxpayer money, money that they're worked hard for and that belongs to them?? For someone who is supposed to believe in efficiency and less waste, your argument makes no sense. Like I said, we would have a better idea of whether the subsidy he is providing was sufficient enough or not if we have competition here to begin with. I am so hoping that this deal works out this way I can see what the nay sayers have to complain about then. I'm sorry, but there are other options besides the and it is about time that folks exercise their rights to use them.

 

The MTA does have competition out east, with Hampton Jitney. Despite being more expensive HJ is kicking the MTA's ass, especially on the north fork. The MTA hasn't done a single thing to woo people back to the train.

Perhaps HJ could add more service if it got the subsidy money currently going to the MTA?

There was an idea to form a Peconic Bay Transportation Authority to run the Greenport line and I really wish that would be revisited.

[PinePower]

Still, NIFA and the county have to approve it. I still wish the worst for Mangano, though.

 

Well, as much as I disagree with Mangano I dont wish failure.

If the private company can do it cheaper with the same or better levels of service and similar fares, why not?

Its not like MTA LI Bus is perfect. It doesn't have the mainstream public riding. That needs to change. I am encouraged by the "customer approach", making the system more appealing to ride as stated in the articles I read. This is what Westchester has done and Bee-Line is a huge success story.

My main question is math, it just doesn't seem to add up, how Nassau can put in so much less money and get a similar level of service and fares.

[Joel Up Front]

It's not like Suffolk or WC get mainstream riders, either. Maybe Westchester, but we both pay out the ass for property taxes.

[qjtransitmaster]

The MTA does have competition out east, with Hampton Jitney. Despite being more expensive HJ is kicking the MTA's ass, especially on the north fork. The MTA hasn't done a single thing to woo people back to the train.

Perhaps HJ could add more service if it got the subsidy money currently going to the MTA?

There was an idea to form a Peconic Bay Transportation Authority to run the Greenport line and I really wish that would be revisited.

 

thats only beacause MTA train service is POOR!!!! If it were as frequent as the jitney then hampton jitney would be screwed!!! They are only kicking ass cause they are more frequent. Seriously 2 trains a day vs 15 bus departures yeah as if ppl have a choice!!!!!

[qjtransitmaster]

Well, as much as I disagree with Mangano I dont wish failure.

If the private company can do it cheaper with the same or better levels of service and similar fares, why not?

Its not like MTA LI Bus is perfect. It doesn't have the mainstream public riding. That needs to change. I am encouraged by the "customer approach", making the system more appealing to ride as stated in the articles I read. This is what Westchester has done and Bee-Line is a huge success story.

My main question is math, it just doesn't seem to add up, how Nassau can put in so much less money and get a similar level of service and fares.

 

Well what if nassau got the mainstream riders added to the private LIB operation then what was impossible will become possible. I see some kind of restructuring. If they can restructure LIB to woo the mainstream public to start using the buses then who knows you just never know I want to see this succeed even with the steep odds.

[qjtransitmaster]

The point was to have choice period not about whether the or a private operate can hold them hostage. That's obvious. If you've got choices it creates competition, which currently doesn't really exist with the as the main player in town.

 

As for Mangano, if he can get the service that Nassau needs paying little in subsidizes, then why shouldn't he??? Why should the taxpayers of Nassau pay outrageous tax rates just because folks like you don't think that Mangano is giving transportation companies a bigger chunk of taxpayer money, money that they're worked hard for and that belongs to them?? For someone who is supposed to believe in efficiency and less waste, your argument makes no sense. Like I said, we would have a better idea of whether the subsidy he is providing was sufficient enough or not if we have competition here to begin with. I am so hoping that this deal works out this way I can see what the nay sayers have to complain about then. I'm sorry, but there are other options besides the and it is about time that folks exercise their rights to use them.

 

competition is good BUT TOO MUCH CAN BACKFIRE badly!!!! Just look at LA then you will see what happens when you have 20 different bus agencies in a single metropolitan area it creates confusion and makes transit harder to use which pushes riders away and creates Wasteful subsidies for many different operators that should be just one. The problem Here in NY will never get as bad as LA but just an example of what too many operators will do to a system it creates a fragmented disconnected mess of a network. After the queens operators were taken over express buses will always be MTA.

[E train line]

This is going fail

[Via Garibaldi 8]

competition is good BUT TOO MUCH CAN BACKFIRE badly!!!! Just look at LA then you will see what happens when you have 20 different bus agencies in a single metropolitan area it creates confusion and makes transit harder to use which pushes riders away and creates Wasteful subsidies for many different operators that should be just one. The problem Here in NY will never get as bad as LA but just an example of what too many operators will do to a system it creates a fragmented disconnected mess of a network. After the queens operators were taken over express buses will always be MTA.

 

 

I didn't say anything about 20 operators. The alternatives would definitely be far fewer than that. I'm well aware of the advantages of having things under one company, but there are clear disadvantages as well. If I had it my way we would certainly have another big player in the game and not just the , someone big enough to give them a run for their money.

[Q43LTD]

So the neglectful parent has finally given up his child.

[checkmatechamp13]

Oh, I know you aren't, but some people are forgetting that and are just obsessed with the running the show out there, but they don't understand the costs involved in this and have no problem having others pay for the service as if they don't have their own financial issues. This is not the time or place to go raising taxes on people, regardless of whether they are middle class, upper middle class or wealthy.

 

 

 

You're missing the big picture here and looking solely at what attrition is... Maybe you should re-read your post again...

 

I don't see your point.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't see your point.

 

Even through attrition workers are hurt, that's the point. If you can't see how then I don't know what to tell you. Re-read the definition of attrition and B35's point should be very clear.

[checkmatechamp13]

Even through attrition workers are hurt, that's the point. If you can't see how then I don't know what to tell you. Re-read the definition of attrition and B35's point should be very clear.

 

But not being hired is better than being hired, thinking you have some job security, and then being fired a few years later because of budget reductions.

 

Plus, this is a moot point, because if the whole point of hiring a private company is to run the same service for less money, then that would mean that there is no point in reducing the number of drivers.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But not being hired is better than being hired, thinking you have some job security, and then being fired a few years later because of budget reductions.

 

Plus, this is a moot point, because if the whole point of hiring a private company is to run the same service for less money, then that would mean that there is no point in reducing the number of drivers.

 

No it isn't a moot point. If you're employed for a few years you have the chance to build up savings so that if you are fired you can live off of those savings or look for another job in the meantime, as opposed to having no job at all. An employer is much more inclined to hire someone who has a job than someone who isn't.

 

Having to explain a gap in your work history is always annoying.

 

Aside from that one less company hiring means fewer jobs for those folks looking for work. Whether you realize it or not attrition is not as peachy of a picture as you're trying to paint it.

[checkmatechamp13]

No it isn't a moot point. If you're employed for a few years you have the chance to build up savings so that if you are fired you can live off of those savings or look for another job in the meantime, as opposed to having no job at all. An employer is much more inclined to hire someone who has a job than someone who isn't.

 

Having to explain a gap in your work history is always annoying.

 

Aside from that one less company hiring means fewer jobs for those folks looking for work. Whether you realize it or not attrition is not as peachy of a picture as you're trying to paint it.

 

But the private company is supposed to be trying to keep its costs low so it can make money and still pass the savings onto the taxpayers. The point of running any buisiness is to make money, not provide jobs.

 

In any case, the moot point that I was referring to was the fact that any reductions in staff (though layoffs or attrition) would be unnecessary, since there would already (most likely) be savings by the private company running the buses.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But the private company is supposed to be trying to keep its costs low so it can make money and still pass the savings onto the taxpayers. The point of running any buisiness is to make money, not provide jobs.

 

In any case, the moot point that I was referring to was the fact that any reductions in staff (though layoffs or attrition) would be unnecessary, since there would already (most likely) be savings by the private company running the buses.

 

Ay yay yay... You just don't get it. If no one provides jobs, no one will work!! What part of that don't you get?? That's exactly why we can't pull out this recession now because companies aren't hiring. The U.S. is a consumer based country and in order for people to buy things they need jobs. In order for the buses to used, people need to have money in order to ride them. You point out the obvious. Of course we know what the objective of a private company is and that's not just private companies, but any company.

 

Also, the goal of every company is not just to make money, but to expand and become bigger. You don't do that if you don't hire people. Attrition can work as a short term solution, not a long term one.

[checkmatechamp13]

Ay yay yay... You just don't get it. If no one provides jobs, no one will work!! What part of that don't you get?? That's exactly why we can't pull out this recession now because companies aren't hiring. The U.S. is a consumer based country and in order for people to buy things they need jobs. In order for the buses to used, people need to have money in order to ride them. You point out the obvious. Of course we know what the objective of a private company is and that's not just private companies, but any company.

 

Also, the goal of every company is not just to make money, but to expand and become bigger. You don't do that if you don't hire people. Attrition can work as a short term solution, not a long term one.

 

That company is already fairly large.

 

As far as reducing the workforce goes, you have to consider that, if the county isn't providing enough subsidies, the private company will have to reduce the workforce. Sure, it is beneficial to everybody overall to have more people employed, but it isn't benefitting the company to hire more people.

 

In any case, the original discussion that we were having is about privatizing express buses in NYC, in order to save money. In that case, as I said before, there would be no need for attrition (unless they really wanted to reduce the budget, which they would have to do even if the MTA ran the express buses) because the same number of drivers would be needed.