Stranded straphangers begin drive to bring back bus service to Queens

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Maybe i was off base on the 35-foot bus ideas for NYC. With that said, not meant to off topic on the Q79 topic for a minute but make a point. I stand by my proposal on 'light rail' not to replace NYC buses but as a supplemental service. The average New Yorker is not like us who are bus/rail fans, they want to get to 'point a-b' asap. Other a couple of extensions like the current SAS, due to NIMBY's and most important lack of money, there never going to be a widespread expansions like in the first couple of decades of the 20th Century.

 

Yes some ideas like 1)computer signals that automatically turn the traffic lights to 'green' for buses 2)bus only lanes will help but needs to be more.

 

With that said, the only solution to improve NYC bus system for the 21st Century IMO(that is my view you don't have to agree)is 1)As I think Two-Timer suggested do a complete review of all 5 boros and if needed 'start over' with new bus lines. As i stated before at least 25% of the bus lines systemwide are 'outdated' and not where the riders want to go.

 

2)"Light Rail' Remember in the 1st couple of decades of 20th, NYC had 'trolley lines' before the buses replaced them. Matter of fact many of the current bus routes especially in Brooklyn and Queens are former trolley routes.

Thus there need to be a subway-type of rapid transit (instead of spending tens of billions on more subway lines)suppplemental service to the bus that faster than even SBS.That my whole point guys. We can make all of the route changes you want but long term IMO, a new NYC bus network that keeps some of the existing lines and creates new ones is the way to go. While a light rail or street car system like (NJT)Hudson-Bergen line, etc. that acts as a twin to the bus system is the best solution long term for NYC IMO.

 

 

Now it's out the way of my views (we just have to agree to disagree), back to the chat on restoring (Q79) service or not.:eek:

 

 

The question you never answered was #1 where do you put these light rails & #2 where does the money come from?

 

Seems as if the city is looking at the waterways and not light rails as a way to take off stress from the subway system. They just introduced a new fast ferry for Northern Brooklynites that live near or in Williamsburg, Greenpoint and so forth. I may try it out myself if I get the chance since it is free just to see what it is like.

[Shortline Bus]

The question you never answered was #1 where do you put these light rails & #2 where does the money come from?

 

Seems as if the city is looking at the waterways and not light rails as a way to take off stress from the subway system. They just introduced a new fast ferry for Northern Brooklynites that live near or in Williamsburg, Greenpoint and so forth. I may try it out myself if I get the chance since it is free just to see what it is like.

 

 

I also support waterways but as part of a network. A ferry does not help someone living say in the Tremont section of the Bronx going to Midtown.

 

To answer your question, I would use a 1/2 cent sales tax on vistors(they have $$ and added tolls/taxes to current NYers)on hotel stays. Someone has to pay (I know someone will disagree with me on this)for using NYC services.

That one mainway to collect the hundred of millions to bulid the light rail.

 

Again it would only be in 1-2 sections of the city so here are the choices IMO.

I am not a 'urban planner"(i forgot but i seen on some site the exact locations for a light rail made by an organzation)but some ideas.

 

Queens

Brewer Blvd/147th Ave. (SE Queens)

Hillside Ave (between Queens Blvd and Floral Park/268th)

The only real expensive is making the Cross Bay Bridge accessible to light rail tracks.

Hillside Ave between Kew Gardens and Floral Park(268th St.)Replaces the

(Q43) line.

 

 

Brooklyn

Nostrand (Northbound car/traffic traffic uses New York Ave and Southbound Rogers between Fulton and Glenwood Rd.)

Utica/Macolm X between Dekalb and Kings Plaza. Again cars would be banned between Empire Blvd and Deklab.

 

 

Staten Island

Forest Ave

 

Manhattan

5th and Madison via 110th and Lenox Ave(new route combing the (M2) and existing (M7) and (M102) routes.

42nd Street(between 8th Avenue and 2nd Avenue)

 

Bronx

3rd Avenue between 149th and Gun Hill Road.(Sort of like the old (8) train returning)replacing the (BX55) Limited

 

 

Create Bus Only lanes.

Queens- Cross Bay/Woodhaven Blvd, Northern Blvd (between Main St and Glenwood/City line)Lefferts Blvd,Main St(whole length between Northern Blvd and Queens Blvd)Grand Ave(between Fresh Pond and Queens Blvd)

 

Brooklyn-Church Ave(between McDonald and Utica)Flatbush (Between Atlantic Ave and Nostrand)Kings Highway(Between CI Avenue and Church Ave)

 

Manhattan-Broadway(between 96th and 59th St) 125th Street(between Bway and 2nd Ave) 14th Street(Between 1st Ave and 8th Ave)57th Street(Between

8th and 3rd Avenue)

181th Street(between Broadway and Washington Bridge)

 

Bronx

149th Street(Between Southern Blvd and Grand Concourse)

Tremont(Between Concourse and Morris Park Ave)

 

Staten Island

Hylan(between New Drop Lane and Clove Rd)thus allow for possible (S79)SBS and faster service on the express buses.

 

That my takes. Reactions?

[TML]

I would consider reviving the Q79, but classify it as a "lifeline" route which provides a basic level of service for the most transit-dependent residents of the area it served. Under the original doomsday (2009) plan, it would have been discontinued on Saturdays and ended earlier on weekdays, but otherwise preserved.

 

Remember that Floral Park village residents balked at the idea of extending the 79 to the Floral Park LIRR station, so if that attitude persists (which is likely the case even now), the only other extension idea I can think of is the Queens Village station.

[Shortline Bus]

I would consider reviving the Q79, but classify it as a "lifeline" route which provides a basic level of service for the most transit-dependent residents of the area it served. Under the original doomsday (2009) plan, it would have been discontinued on Saturdays and ended earlier on weekdays, but otherwise preserved.

 

Remember that Floral Park village residents balked at the idea of extending the 79 to the Floral Park LIRR station, so if that attitude persists (which is likely the case even now), the only other extension idea I can think of is the Queens Village station.

 

That what is the should have done. Make the (Q79) a weekday only route. And call it a day. However as i said IMO the '79' as we know it, will never return and thus only an extension of current routes i.e (Q30) might be possible(I know a few guys here oppose it but it a compromise)instead.

[checkmatechamp13]

Totally agreed!!! NYCT is basically taking an ancient route network that dates back to the start of New York City transit service (trolleys) and modifying it here and there to fit. After several decades, it's become a complete mess.

 

As for extending routes to cover the Q79, how about piecing it up?

 

-Extend Q36 up to Union Tpk

-Extend Q30 down to Union Tpk

-Or make the QM3, QM5, QM8 take on local passengers (since local ridership is likely to be low anyway)

 

Direct service to Jamaica or Flushing is highly likely to increase ridership.

 

You're right that a lot of routes haven't been modernized. That's something that could've been done as part of the service reductions last year.

 

BrooklynBus gives an example in Dyker Heights: Back in the 1930s, the two halves of 13th Avenue were connected, but the bus routes still don't line up in that area, making a trip that is 10 minutes by car into a 40 minute bus trip.

 

And that's why there's something called the local bus. There's also limited stop buses too. Express buses are for express bus riders who already have long commutes who are paying a premium fare to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, not for everyone to jump on and jump off and slow down the bus. If you really understood how the express bus functions, you would see that the proposal is completely ridiculous. Your proposal could add a good 30 minutes to folks' commutes each way with people having to get off and then get on. There's a reason "Drop Off" only was created and for some reason you, Amtrak & checkmate don't get it. If the express bus was made for every commuter to use the wouldn't set up the service the way that it did.

 

The point of express buses is not to cram as many people onto the bus as possible, but to get people to their destinations as quickly as possible.

 

They aren't necessarily for people who want to travel between 2 points as quickly as possible. There are a decent number of areas where it is faster to take the local bus to the subway, because the bus gets caught in traffic, whereas the subway doesn't. The people pay the extra fare to get comfortable seats and a more pleasant clientele.

 

I think I get what Amtrak was tryin to do with that... have those routes he mentioned make all local stops along LNP, then express again west of that point... problem is, there's no way to differentiate on the farebox who's traveling locally, and who's not... either way, I don't agree w/ the idea either....

 

as for the other two ideas.... My question is, why union tpke?

 

It doesn't really matter what the farebox says if the local passengers have to pay the same $5.50 as the express passengers.

 

Correct B35. That what Amtrak was proposing as alternative to the (Q79).

Look Garbaldi in other cities (I always felt in NYC the term 'express bus' should really be called premium fare bus fares but that another discussion) 'premium fare' on weekends/holidays i.e San Diego instead of being limited stop or express make additional stops and charge a lower fare.

 

If for example you beloved X27/28 were to return weekend service(not endorsing but aking point it should be on the table for discussion)it could charge 1/2 fare discount (instead of the full fare weekdays like the LIRR and Metro North)but it would pick up local intra-boro riders at the express bus stops. Garbaldi you were not a member yet but about two years ago there was a thread about it.

FYI. On a number of occasion when I still lived in SW Brooklyn a decade ago, the drivers on weekends would pick up a rider in Lower Manhattan *charge the full express fare* and take them to 57th St over waiting for a then (M6) that never showed up. Plus most of the express buses on weekends are empty.

 

Again a food for thought and like a total start look to 'start over' re-creating the bus system in NYC so should the option of so called "Manhattan express' buses on weekends on lightly used lines pick up intra-boro riders.

It would never be on a route like the X-1 X-10 and BXM7.

 

I'm not sure, but I think NJT allows local travel on its express routes.

 

In addition to that you are serving two different types of commuters with completely different needs.

 

 

 

The answer is not to slow down the express bus further, but make the local buses faster and more reliable. As B35 says you also can't tell the difference between a local bus rider and an express bus rider, which makes providing service more difficult.

 

If anything, you examine express bus routes to try to understand where adjustments can be made to make them more efficient. That could be extending the route or re-routing the route like the did with the BM3. The X16 extension was just completely stupid. It should've been extended, but not to Port Richmond down Jewett Avenue, simply because there was no ridership there to support the extension.

 

But the thing is that some trips simply aren't able to be served easily by the local bus. For example, I remember once, my mother and I had to go to a place on Hylan Blvd, so rather than take the S62 all the way to St. George and then take the S78 back, we paid $5.50 and took the X10 (I'm 99% sure this was before the S93 stopped on Narrows Road South). We gave the MTA extra revenue and completed our trip much faster.

 

On a side note, we would've had to pay an extra fare anyway, since the invitation had an address near Narrows Road South, but it was really in Grant City, so we would've lost our transfer on the S78 already and had to pay the extra fare.

 

As far as the X16 goes, where would you extend it to?

 

LMAO... He really believes that these lines could become more cost effective by having smaller buses. The driver is still going to get paid the same way so I don't see the point, esp. when you consider your points.

 

You save a little on gas, and there might be a few fewer parts to maintain, but the small amount in savings isn't worth it.

 

Gotham Bus Co. never offers solutions. All he does is make facetious, wise ass comments. He's been doing that for years.

 

 

 

no

 

Would it kill you to explain your comments rather than a simple "no", "nope", or "incorrect"?

 

The question you never answered was #1 where do you put these light rails & #2 where does the money come from?

 

Seems as if the city is looking at the waterways and not light rails as a way to take off stress from the subway system. They just introduced a new fast ferry for Northern Brooklynites that live near or in Williamsburg, Greenpoint and so forth. I may try it out myself if I get the chance since it is free just to see what it is like.

 

I guess you could put it in corridors where they have or plan to have +SBS+ service. You just replace the bus lanes with tracks and you're done.

 

I would consider reviving the Q79, but classify it as a "lifeline" route which provides a basic level of service for the most transit-dependent residents of the area it served. Under the original doomsday (2009) plan, it would have been discontinued on Saturdays and ended earlier on weekdays, but otherwise preserved.

 

Remember that Floral Park village residents balked at the idea of extending the 79 to the Floral Park LIRR station, so if that attitude persists (which is likely the case even now), the only other extension idea I can think of is the Queens Village station.

 

The Q79 already provides the basic level of service by NYCT standards (headways of 30 minutes)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They aren't necessarily for people who want to travel between 2 points as quickly as possible. There are a decent number of areas where it is faster to take the local bus to the subway, because the bus gets caught in traffic, whereas the subway doesn't. The people pay the extra fare to get comfortable seats and a more pleasant clientele.

 

 

 

It doesn't really matter what the farebox says if the local passengers have to pay the same $5.50 as the express passengers.

 

Do you always have to be so politically correct?? Of course the express bus gets caught in traffic, but it is called "express" for a reason. Overall my commute via the express bus is far faster than using the ferry, boat and bus so it is indeed express. I can count the number of times that I am late to work because of my express bus being stuck in insane traffic. And yes you're correct, some folks take it because it is more comfortable. When you have to take just one form of transportation your chances of being late is cut down quite a bit when compared to having to make three transfers to three different modes of transportation. If you think that people are using it solely because of the comfortable seats and cliente then you should've seen how empty many express buses there were during the Verrazano construction.

 

Regarding the farebox, it does matter because the point is if you have local bus riders mixed with express bus riders, it makes it difficult to determine the frequencies of the buses and where the ridership is coming from when trying to either add or cut service. People do not want to pay $5.50 to have to stand. I've done it maybe twice in the almost 6 years that I've been using the express bus because I just wanted to get home, but I am certainly never doing it again unless there are no other express buses to wait for.

[B35 via Church]

It doesn't really matter what the farebox says if the local passengers have to pay the same $5.50 as the express passengers.

 

You totally missed the point....

 

The gist of his idea wasn't that the local riders pay the 5.50 fare while boarding the express bus..... It was to have local riders pay the local fare whilst in that area along LNP (little neck pkwy), while continuing to carry the current express passengers.... It's an attempt to save resources (mixing local riders & express riders on the same physical bus)

 

For one, that does slow down express service... while also giving a false sense of the ridership of a certain express bus route....

 

 

 

I'm not sure, but I think NJT allows local travel on its express routes.

Define what you mean by express route there...

 

.....b/c what we consider an express route here in NY, isn't the same as what would be considered an express route in NJ..... Just b/c you see MCI's all over the place in NJ doesn't mean they're all expresses.... just puttin that out there in case you aint know.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You totally missed the point....

 

The gist of his idea wasn't that the local riders pay the 5.50 fare while boarding the express bus..... It was to have local riders pay the local fare whilst in that area along LNP (little neck pkwy), while continuing to carry the current express passengers.... It's an attempt to save resources (mixing local riders & express riders on the same physical bus)

 

For one, that does slow down express service... while also giving a false sense of the ridership of a certain express bus route....

 

 

 

 

Define what you mean by express route there...

 

.....b/c what we consider an express route here in NY, isn't the same as what would be considered an express route in NJ..... Just b/c you see MCI's all over the place in NJ doesn't mean they're all expresses.... just puttin that out there in case you aint know.....

 

I could also see express bus riders becoming pissed because here we are paying the premium fare and we have to pick up all of these people that are getting off where ever. It's like taking a cab and having to pick up and drop off people constantly. I get really pissed when for example I call for a cab and go to get in and then I see some other douchebag sitting in the cab or better yet I'm already in the cab only to find out that now I have to pick up someone else, which means that I'm going to be delayed. This is the same thing with the express bus. When you are spending the kind of cash that express bus riders pay and the commutes that we endure, it is ridiculous to suggest that we should have to pick additional riders.

 

You cannot expect people to pay a premium fare and then ask them to deal with picking up every Tom, D1ck & Joe just because the bus isn't packed like a sardine. If that's the case then people would simply not use the express bus, because there is no point in paying $5.50 to be cramped up and to have to make a thousand stops on top of it.

 

Checkmate claims that people ride to be more comfortable, yet he thinks that people would accept being packed like a sardine and pay $5.50. Makes no sense...

 

The problem with Shortline, Amtrak and checkmate is they are always trying to justify everything by dollars and cents and using their analogy express bus service would be a mess.

 

Every company that is in the transportation business understands that there are different levels of service and when you ask people to pay a premium, that means that you give them premium service in return. You don't expect people to pay for the first class section and get economic class treatment. The same holds true with the express bus. They are NOT local buses and they are NOT limited stop buses. They serve a completely different function.

[qjtransitmaster]

Totally agreed!!! NYCT is basically taking an ancient route network that dates back to the start of New York City transit service (trolleys) and modifying it here and there to fit. After several decades, it's become a complete mess.

 

As for extending routes to cover the Q79, how about piecing it up?

 

-Extend Q36 up to Union Tpk

-Extend Q30 down to Union Tpk

-Or make the QM3, QM5, QM8 take on local passengers (since local ridership is likely to be low anyway)

 

Direct service to Jamaica or Flushing is highly likely to increase ridership.

 

That was why I had a proposal to extend Q50 over Q79 but being limited stop variant of Q12. O the only way you can make QM5 and 8 take on local passengers without pissing ppl off is to have a limit on the open door stops if all stops took local passengers the line wont go anywhere However if it took local passengers at select stops spread out over every 10 blocks then it may work without slowing down the bus too much plus it would only work in queens, Brooklyn and parts of SI(southwest) and select bronx rtes most wont work however. What if the express buses were a rapid style service then it may work better. Plus since the fare is $5.50 there needs to be incentive to encourage off peak travel or reverse like special transfer pliverages like 4 free connections or like in DC unlimited transfers over a 2 or 3 hour period to make up for the high fare and indistingushable farebox dilema

[qjtransitmaster]

I could also see express bus riders becoming pissed because here we are paying the premium fare and we have to pick up all of these people that are getting off where ever. It's like taking a cab and having to pick up and drop off people constantly. I get really pissed when for example I call for a cab and go to get in and then I see some other douchebag sitting in the cab or better yet I'm already in the cab only to find out that now I have to pick up someone else, which means that I'm going to be delayed. This is the same thing with the express bus. When you are spending the kind of cash that express bus riders pay and the commutes that we endure, it is ridiculous to suggest that we should have to pick additional riders.

 

You cannot expect people to pay a premium fare and then ask them to deal with picking up every Tom, D1ck & Joe just because the bus isn't packed like a sardine. If that's the case then people would simply not use the express bus, because there is no point in paying $5.50 to be cramped up and to have to make a thousand stops on top of it.

 

Checkmate claims that people ride to be more comfortable, yet he thinks that people would accept being packed like a sardine and pay $5.50. Makes no sense...

 

The problem with Shortline, Amtrak and checkmate is they are always trying to justify everything by dollars and cents and using their analogy express bus service would be a mess.

 

Every company that is in the transportation business understands that there are different levels of service and when you ask people to pay a premium, that means that you give them premium service in return. You don't expect people to pay for the first class section and get economic class treatment. The same holds true with the express bus. They are NOT local buses and they are NOT limited stop buses. They serve a completely different function.

 

You are right and wrong. Right as if done improperly express buses will slow down too much. However due to NYC travel patterns to keep both arguments valid in a compromise I would have the express buses have a limited open door policy. At rush hour express ridership is HIGH!!!! and full right. So open door will piss off peeps. So they remain closed door at rush hr peak direction. On outbound trips open door policy will apply only at major transfer points. At stops spread out over 15 blocks. Except for express lines with local bus lines along the same rte where its completely closed door in peak direction. However in the reverse direction and off peak the local ppl will only be accepted for stops spread out at every other major transfer point. Example QM6 open door at union tpk but the next open door stop isnt till 164th meaning its open door at every other LTD stop like a super LTD. Except rush hr. All other stops are still closed door. This allows the express bus to retain its express attributes while increasing ridership. However complete local service on these lines will piss off everyone and will defeat the purpose completely. Manhattan open door policy will be very limited to keep buses moving. So open door stops are only every 10 blocks. However buses like X1 who have a local bus along its entire SI portion will remain closed door in SI and manhattan due to the subway however if done properly it could take business away from the cabs. So like I said it is a case by case basis. But if X1 were to open door it should only be done at 7 SI locations spread out. Like a rapid service with fewer stops than LTD (open door). Why so few cause if too many stops accept local travellers there will be hell to pay.

[qjtransitmaster]

I would consider reviving the Q79, but classify it as a "lifeline" route which provides a basic level of service for the most transit-dependent residents of the area it served. Under the original doomsday (2009) plan, it would have been discontinued on Saturdays and ended earlier on weekdays, but otherwise preserved.

 

Remember that Floral Park village residents balked at the idea of extending the 79 to the Floral Park LIRR station, so if that attitude persists (which is likely the case even now), the only other extension idea I can think of is the Queens Village station.

 

The only reason why I suggested Q79 merging with the N2 was Not cause of transit dependant riders or ppl travel but to create a mainstream line that is geared towards getting ppl out of their cars. Current transit dependant ppl on the 79 and N2 have nothing in common true however where do all those motorists in the territories travel too??? how many get onto little neck from nassau and other places??? My plan isnt geared towards those few without cars. Its geared as a convenience service to give ppl with cars an additional option. Most of em wont drop off till transfer points anyway so the rte will be constantly moving.

[qjtransitmaster]

word.... what's 5 feet gonna do?

 

If we already have the 40 footers, why the hell would we spend MORE money in purchasing buses that holds LESS people....

 

I'd like an explanation as to how that's cost effective.... LMAO !!!

 

 

....and if you ask me, obtaining smaller buses would be an underhanded way of DIScouraging ridership; not something we need right now....

 

smaller buses DONT WORK in NYC at all. They discourage ridership. and are fugly

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You are right and wrong. Right as if done improperly express buses will slow down too much. However due to NYC travel patterns to keep both arguments valid in a compromise I would have the express buses have a limited open door policy. At rush hour express ridership is HIGH!!!! and full right. So open door will piss off peeps. So they remain closed door at rush hr peak direction. On outbound trips open door policy will apply only at major transfer points. At stops spread out over 15 blocks. Except for express lines with local bus lines along the same rte where its completely closed door in peak direction. However in the reverse direction and off peak the local ppl will only be accepted for stops spread out at every other major transfer point. Example QM6 open door at union tpk but the next open door stop isnt till 164th meaning its open door at every other LTD stop like a super LTD. Except rush hr. All other stops are still closed door. This allows the express bus to retain its express attributes while increasing ridership. However complete local service on these lines will piss off everyone and will defeat the purpose completely. Manhattan open door policy will be very limited to keep buses moving. So open door stops are only every 10 blocks. However buses like X1 who have a local bus along its entire SI portion will remain closed door in SI and manhattan due to the subway however if done properly it could take business away from the cabs. So like I said it is a case by case basis. But if X1 were to open door it should only be done at 7 SI locations spread out. Like a rapid service with fewer stops than LTD (open door). Why so few cause if too many stops accept local travellers there will be hell to pay.

 

 

I don't think you know what you're talking about. We already have express bus transfer points where people can transfer (get on and get off). They are utilized and that is sufficient.

[via White Plains Road]

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

 

:tup::tup::tup::tup::tup:

[qjtransitmaster]

I don't think you know what you're talking about. We already have express bus transfer points where people can transfer (get on and get off). They are utilized and that is sufficient.

 

Dude you repeated what I already said in a different manner

[B35 via Church]

smaller buses DONT WORK in NYC at all. They discourage ridership. and are fugly

 

"Dude you repeated what I already said"

[553 Bridgeton]

You are right and wrong. Right as if done improperly express buses will slow down too much. However due to NYC travel patterns to keep both arguments valid in a compromise I would have the express buses have a limited open door policy. At rush hour express ridership is HIGH!!!! and full right. So open door will piss off peeps. So they remain closed door at rush hr peak direction. On outbound trips open door policy will apply only at major transfer points. At stops spread out over 15 blocks. Except for express lines with local bus lines along the same rte where its completely closed door in peak direction. However in the reverse direction and off peak the local ppl will only be accepted for stops spread out at every other major transfer point. Example QM6 open door at union tpk but the next open door stop isnt till 164th meaning its open door at every other LTD stop like a super LTD. Except rush hr. All other stops are still closed door. This allows the express bus to retain its express attributes while increasing ridership. However complete local service on these lines will piss off everyone and will defeat the purpose completely. Manhattan open door policy will be very limited to keep buses moving. So open door stops are only every 10 blocks. However buses like X1 who have a local bus along its entire SI portion will remain closed door in SI and manhattan due to the subway however if done properly it could take business away from the cabs. So like I said it is a case by case basis. But if X1 were to open door it should only be done at 7 SI locations spread out. Like a rapid service with fewer stops than LTD (open door). Why so few cause if too many stops accept local travellers there will be hell to pay.

 

What the hell?

[qjtransitmaster]

What the hell?

 

I will break it down express buses open door in outer boroughs only during off peak and reverse direction trips but only select stops will allow both discharging and pickup if this is already done then the marketing needs to change. Simple enough right.

[Q101 E Midtown]

I agree with the part of having open doors only in the outer boroughs and only outside rush-hours. However, it should only be in express routes with no, or inadequate local alternatives. I don't agree on select stops though.Two routes the MTA could start/experiment with could be the BxM1 and QM5, both on the weekends.

 

What could is if the fareboxes could accept both local and express fares on express lines.

[Cait Sith]

That was why I had a proposal to extend Q50 over Q79 but being limited stop variant of Q12. O the only way you can make QM5 and 8 take on local passengers without pissing ppl off is to have a limit on the open door stops if all stops took local passengers the line wont go anywhere However if it took local passengers at select stops spread out over every 10 blocks then it may work without slowing down the bus too much plus it would only work in queens, Brooklyn and parts of SI(southwest) and select bronx rtes most wont work however. What if the express buses were a rapid style service then it may work better. Plus since the fare is $5.50 there needs to be incentive to encourage off peak travel or reverse like special transfer pliverages like 4 free connections or like in DC unlimited transfers over a 2 or 3 hour period to make up for the high fare and indistingushable farebox dilema

 

New York is not New Jersey, the only reason the open door limitations work there is because of their zone based fare. There is absolutely no way that will work. There is no point in extending the Q50 because of the headways. Like I keep telling you, ride the routes before you plan......

[qjtransitmaster]

New York is not New Jersey, the only reason the open door limitations work there is because of their zone based fare. There is absolutely no way that will work. There is no point in extending the Q50 because of the headways. Like I keep telling you, ride the routes before you plan......

 

hehe ur good you actually read my mind. True the zone based fare makes it work in NJ but what if additional transfer pliverages were granted for the express buses offsetting the flat fare limitation. Hence you are good about the ride before plan hence why I had a hudson valley and NJ plan before even thinking about NYC. You win this debate.

[553 Bridgeton]

hehe ur good you actually read my mind. True the zone based fare makes it work in NJ but what if additional transfer pliverages were granted for the express buses offsetting the flat fare limitation. Hence you are good about the ride before plan hence why I had a hudson valley and NJ plan before even thinking about NYC. You win this debate.

 

Its not about being good. Its just common sense.

[checkmatechamp13]

Do you always have to be so politically correct?? Of course the express bus gets caught in traffic, but it is called "express" for a reason. Overall my commute via the express bus is far faster than using the ferry, boat and bus so it is indeed express. I can count the number of times that I am late to work because of my express bus being stuck in insane traffic. And yes you're correct, some folks take it because it is more comfortable. When you have to take just one form of transportation your chances of being late is cut down quite a bit when compared to having to make three transfers to three different modes of transportation. If you think that people are using it solely because of the comfortable seats and cliente then you should've seen how empty many express buses there were during the Verrazano construction.

 

Regarding the farebox, it does matter because the point is if you have local bus riders mixed with express bus riders, it makes it difficult to determine the frequencies of the buses and where the ridership is coming from when trying to either add or cut service. People do not want to pay $5.50 to have to stand. I've done it maybe twice in the almost 6 years that I've been using the express bus because I just wanted to get home, but I am certainly never doing it again unless there are no other express buses to wait for.

 

I'm sure there are a significant amount of riders who take it just because of its comfort and clientele. Or else why would there be a bunch of buses on Union Turnpike, when it is generally faster to take the Q46 to the (E)/(F). Plus, there are other examples as well.

 

Even during the construction problems on the bridge there were still a lot of riders taking the express bus. The reason why many buses were running empty was because the MTA didn't adjust the schedules to reflect the lower demand (to be honest, it might be harder to cut a whole bunch of service and then restore it a few months later than it is to just run the extra service)

You totally missed the point....

 

The gist of his idea wasn't that the local riders pay the 5.50 fare while boarding the express bus..... It was to have local riders pay the local fare whilst in that area along LNP (little neck pkwy), while continuing to carry the current express passengers.... It's an attempt to save resources (mixing local riders & express riders on the same physical bus)

 

For one, that does slow down express service... while also giving a false sense of the ridership of a certain express bus route....

 

 

 

 

Define what you mean by express route there...

 

.....b/c what we consider an express route here in NY, isn't the same as what would be considered an express route in NJ..... Just b/c you see MCI's all over the place in NJ doesn't mean they're all expresses.... just puttin that out there in case you aint know.....

 

Alright. I thought every route with MCIs was an express route.

 

I could also see express bus riders becoming pissed because here we are paying the premium fare and we have to pick up all of these people that are getting off where ever. It's like taking a cab and having to pick up and drop off people constantly. I get really pissed when for example I call for a cab and go to get in and then I see some other douchebag sitting in the cab or better yet I'm already in the cab only to find out that now I have to pick up someone else, which means that I'm going to be delayed. This is the same thing with the express bus. When you are spending the kind of cash that express bus riders pay and the commutes that we endure, it is ridiculous to suggest that we should have to pick additional riders.

 

You cannot expect people to pay a premium fare and then ask them to deal with picking up every Tom, D1ck & Joe just because the bus isn't packed like a sardine. If that's the case then people would simply not use the express bus, because there is no point in paying $5.50 to be cramped up and to have to make a thousand stops on top of it.

 

Checkmate claims that people ride to be more comfortable, yet he thinks that people would accept being packed like a sardine and pay $5.50. Makes no sense...

 

The problem with Shortline, Amtrak and checkmate is they are always trying to justify everything by dollars and cents and using their analogy express bus service would be a mess.

 

Every company that is in the transportation business understands that there are different levels of service and when you ask people to pay a premium, that means that you give them premium service in return. You don't expect people to pay for the first class section and get economic class treatment. The same holds true with the express bus. They are NOT local buses and they are NOT limited stop buses. They serve a completely different function.

 

1) Like I said, part of the reason for the premium fare is because express buses cost much more to operate than local buses. Throughout the whole 1+ hour run, you're only picking up 60-70 passengers at most. On a local route, you can easily pick up twice as many passengers in the same period of time. Plus, express buses deadhead more than local and limited buses, which increases the costs even more.

 

2) You said that you've ridden express buses within one borough yourself, so suddenly when other people are allowed to do it, it becomes a problem?

 

3) A couple of extra riders isn't going to cause the bus to become "sardine can" crowded. The routes along the Q79 corridor are starting their runs there, and by the time the bus starts to get crowded, those Q79 riders will be off.

 

You are right and wrong. Right as if done improperly express buses will slow down too much. However due to NYC travel patterns to keep both arguments valid in a compromise I would have the express buses have a limited open door policy. At rush hour express ridership is HIGH!!!! and full right. So open door will piss off peeps. So they remain closed door at rush hr peak direction. On outbound trips open door policy will apply only at major transfer points. At stops spread out over 15 blocks. Except for express lines with local bus lines along the same rte where its completely closed door in peak direction. However in the reverse direction and off peak the local ppl will only be accepted for stops spread out at every other major transfer point. Example QM6 open door at union tpk but the next open door stop isnt till 164th meaning its open door at every other LTD stop like a super LTD. Except rush hr. All other stops are still closed door. This allows the express bus to retain its express attributes while increasing ridership. However complete local service on these lines will piss off everyone and will defeat the purpose completely. Manhattan open door policy will be very limited to keep buses moving. So open door stops are only every 10 blocks. However buses like X1 who have a local bus along its entire SI portion will remain closed door in SI and manhattan due to the subway however if done properly it could take business away from the cabs. So like I said it is a case by case basis. But if X1 were to open door it should only be done at 7 SI locations spread out. Like a rapid service with fewer stops than LTD (open door). Why so few cause if too many stops accept local travellers there will be hell to pay.

 

I don't think somebody is going to pay $5.50 for the QM6 when the Q46 limited runs frequently and does the same thing for $2.25. The same thing for the X1 vs. the S79 (especially with +SBS+ coming up)

 

This would only work where there are very few reasonable alternatives.

[IntExp]

I'm sure there are a significant amount of riders who take it just because of its comfort and clientele. Or else why would there be a bunch of buses on Union Turnpike, when it is generally faster to take the Q46 to the (E)/(F). Plus, there are other examples as well.

 

Even during the construction problems on the bridge there were still a lot of riders taking the express bus. The reason why many buses were running empty was because the MTA didn't adjust the schedules to reflect the lower demand (to be honest, it might be harder to cut a whole bunch of service and then restore it a few months later than it is to just run the extra service)

 

Alright. I thought every route with MCIs was an express route.

 

1) Like I said, part of the reason for the premium fare is because express buses cost much more to operate than local buses. Throughout the whole 1+ hour run, you're only picking up 60-70 passengers at most. On a local route, you can easily pick up twice as many passengers in the same period of time. Plus, express buses deadhead more than local and limited buses, which increases the costs even more.

 

2) You said that you've ridden express buses within one borough yourself, so suddenly when other people are allowed to do it, it becomes a problem?

 

3) A couple of extra riders isn't going to cause the bus to become "sardine can" crowded. The routes along the Q79 corridor are starting their runs there, and by the time the bus starts to get crowded, those Q79 riders will be off.

 

I don't think somebody is going to pay $5.50 for the QM6 when the Q46 limited runs frequently and does the same thing for $2.25. The same thing for the X1 vs. the S79 (especially with +SBS+ coming up)

 

This would only work where there are very few reasonable alternatives.

 

Yes, but why pack the QM5, QM6, QM7, QM8 even more? Sure, it might be from Little Neck to Union Turnpike, but by the time it reaches Union, it is usually full- the extra riders from the Q79 will still be there in the bus becomes packed. Lastly, the QM5, QM6, QM7, QM8 does not stop at the Union Turnpike Station- it's last stop in Queens is at Union Turnpike and Main St, which is not that close to the station. Please note that the QM5, QM6, QM7, QM8 are already some of the most riden Express Bus routes in the city, aside from the SI Express Bus Routes.

[Cait Sith]

hehe ur good you actually read my mind. True the zone based fare makes it work in NJ but what if additional transfer pliverages were granted for the express buses offsetting the flat fare limitation. Hence you are good about the ride before plan hence why I had a hudson valley and NJ plan before even thinking about NYC. You win this debate.

 

It's already done, you can transfer from a local to an express and vice-versa if thats what you mean. Also, this isnt a debate, its common sense...

 

Its not about being good. Its just common sense.

 

Which he lacks, apparently...