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East New York

MTS T-Drive RTS

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I was recently give access to MTS production information, and I found out something that will shock everyone! The first production MTS high floor WAS NOT for Pueblo Transit. There was one before it!

 

Bus_pictures_82505_003.jpg

Photo Courtesy Millennium Transit Services

 

Production List

 

001 Artesia Bulldogs WFD (built with leftover parts from Nova)

002 MTS Engineering APTA High Floor Demonstrator

003 MTS Engineering/Altoona Bus (Low Floor)

004-005 Somerset County Transportation (ex-NJT Pilots #4101, 4201)

006 MTS Engineering/Altoona Bus (High Floor)

007-008 Pueblo Transit

009-013 Foxwoods Casino & Resort (ex-NJT #4103-4107)

014-038 Texas A&M University (ex-NJT #4108-4132)

 

001-003 are 2005 models

004-013 are 2006 models

014-038 are 2007 models

Edited by East New York
Listing order and WFD build year was incorrect

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I was recently give access to MTS production information, and I found out something that will shock everyone! The first production MTS high floor WAS NOT for Pueblo Transit. There was one before it!

 

Bus_pictures_82505_003.jpg

 

That window setup threw me right off along with the black trim, thats a pretty sweet looking bus.

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Production List

 

001 Artesia Bulldogs WFD (built with leftover parts from Nova)

002 APTA High Floor Demonstrator

003 MTS Engineering/Altoona Bus (Low Floor)

004-005 Somerset County Transportation (ex-NJT Pilots #4101, 4201)

006 MTS Engineering/Altoona Bus (High Floor)

007-008 Pueblo Transit (first actual MTS bus built from the ground up)

009-013 Foxwoods Casino & Resort (ex-NJT #4102-4107)

014-038 Texas A&M University (ex-NJT #4108-4132)

 

001-003 are 2005 models

004-013 are 2006 models

014-038 are 2007 models

 

 

Hey, something is off, with production units 009-013. The count doesn't add up, that's 5 units. However 4102-4107 is 6 units.

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Hey, something is off, with production units 009-013. The count doesn't add up, that's 5 units. However 4102-4107 is 6 units.

 

That's what said at first too..... I just checked, and supposedly they only have 5. They were originally supposed to take 6, but the 6th bus got diverted.

 

This info came from MTS this morning. However, I know you have 500-505 listed.

 

I just made a phone call to double check, and was told there may have been some kind of mixup. He read the list off one by one, and this is what he has listed.....

 

4107 was a typo.

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You know we can back track this via this:

 

TAMU_Millennium_Mfgplate.jpg

 

That is off TAMU Bus #631.

 

Back tracking the VINs, this is what it should be...

001 APTA Demo (NJT Spec) (I have photos of this unit I took at the convention)

002 APTA Demo/MTS Engineering/Altoona Test Bus

003 SCT 4023 (nee NJT 4201)

004 SCT 4024 (nee NJT 4101)

005 Engineering Demo/Altoona

006 PT 106

007 PT 206

008 FW 500

009 FW 501

010 FW 502

011 FW 503

012 FW 504

013 FW 505

014 TAMU 620

015 TAMU 621

016 TAMU 622

017 TAMU 623

018 TAMU 624

019 TAMU 625

020 TAMU 626

021 TAMU 627

022 TAMU 628

023 TAMU 629

024 TAMU 630

025 TAMU 631

and so on...

 

Now not saying that your contact at MTS is wrong, but I have a itchy feeling that the Bulldogs RTS is carrying a Nova plate with a Nova VIN number instead of being a MTS plate with VIN number. (That photo just screams Nova R&D Test Bus, too many Nova specs, and remember the T-Drive RTS in this spec was developed by Nova).

Edited by Vintage Soul

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Except that Evan McCausland has a photo of the builder's plate of 106, which carries serial 6R715007.

 

http://www.cptdb.ca/index.php?s=&showtopic=5465&view=findpost&p=158644

 

So it just adds to the confusion. I guess 3 possibilities are

 

1) Dante's list is correct and the Asteria bus is actually plated under Millennium

2) Pueblo 206 is actually serial 6R715006

3) Trevor's list and findings are correct, Asteria bus is plated under Nova, but a serial was skipped somewhere along the line (because Pueblo 106 shows serial 6R715007)

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You know we can back track this via this:

 

TAMU_Millennium_Mfgplate.jpg

 

That is off TAMU Bus #631.

 

Back tracking the VINs, this is what it should be...

001 APTA Demo (NJT Spec) (I have photos of this unit I took at the convention)

002 APTA Demo/MTS Engineering/Altoona Test Bus

003 SCT 4023 (nee NJT 4201)

004 SCT 4024 (nee NJT 4101)

005 Engineering Demo/Altoona

006 PT 106

007 PT 206

008 FW 500

009 FW 501

010 FW 502

011 FW 503

012 FW 504

013 FW 505

014 TAMU 620

015 TAMU 621

016 TAMU 622

017 TAMU 623

018 TAMU 624

019 TAMU 625

020 TAMU 626

021 TAMU 627

022 TAMU 628

023 TAMU 629

024 TAMU 630

025 TAMU 631

and so on...

 

Now not saying that your contact at MTS is wrong, but I have a itchy feeling that the Bulldogs RTS is carrying a Nova plate with a Nova VIN number instead of being a MTS plate with VIN number. (That photo just screams Nova R&D Test Bus, too many Nova specs, and remember the T-Drive RTS in this spec was developed by Nova).

 

Right! The Bulldogs bus screams Nova all day, but supposedly it has a MTS VIN. It's similar to Nova's CNG T-Drive Altoona bus, so I assume that's why.

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Ok, this is just one unnecessarily complicated mystery.

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Ok, this is just one unnecessarily complicated mystery.

 

I found out about the Bulldogs bus last night, so I'm still trying to process all this. For the last 6 years I have wanted to see the production list. Now I'm just as confused as I was 6 years ago! The first words out my mouth was "when the hell did MTS build a WFD model that nobody knows about?" All the buses you have photos of, plus the build plates combined matches things up. Then DaimlerBuses informed me of the info he had, and it all started to make sense. And your photo of 631 put the final piece to the puzzle together.

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Well, let's clear this up here. I've had this for a week or two, but since there's some confusion going on, let me try and add my two cents in here...

 

Pueblo 106 has always been referred to by MTS reps and employees as its first production order coach (and I refer to it as such in the book). NJT-spec APTA and Altoona demos were built long beforehand -- something Pueblo told me then and is apparent now.

 

From Pueblo 106:

2443987717_a69fdaa403_b.jpg

 

This is what I have, compiled from both MTS reps and MTS documentation filed with NHTSA for recall matters (surprisingly detailed, actually).

 

1M91C11A?6R75001 - ??* (apparently the Bulldogs bus, although we've yet to see the actual VIN plate)

1M91C11A?6R75002 - 40’ HF Demo, Dallas APTA **

1M91C11A?6R75003 - 40’ LF Demo, Dallas APTA ***

1M91C11A66R715004 - Somerset County, NJ, #4024 (ex-NJT #4101)****

1M91C11A76R715005 - Somerset County, NJ, #4025 (ex-NJT #4201, Suburban)****

1M91C11AX6R715006 - Altoona HF Tester *****

1M91C11A16R715007 - Pueblo, #106

1M91C11A36R715008 - Pueblo, #206

1M91C11A56R715009 - Foxwoods, #500 (ex-NJT #4103)

1M91C11A16R715010 - Foxwoods, #501 (ex-NJT #4104)

1M91C11A36R715011 - Foxwoods, #502 (ex-NJT #4105)

1M91C11A56R715012 - Foxwoods, #503 (ex-NJT #4106)

1M91C11A76R715013 - Foxwoods, #504 (ex-NJT #4107)

1M91C11A96R715014 - Texas A&M, #620

1M91C11A06R715015 - Texas A&M, #621

1M91C11A26R715016 - Texas A&M, #622

1M91C11A46R715017 - Texas A&M, #623

1M91C11A66R715018 - Texas A&M, #624

1M91C11A86R715019 - Texas A&M, #625

1M91C11A46R715020 - Texas A&M, #626

1M91C11A66R715021 - Texas A&M, #627

1M91C11A86R715022 - Texas A&M, #628

1M91C11AX6R715023 - Texas A&M, #629

1M91C11A16R715024 - Texas A&M, #630

1M91C11A36R715025 - Texas A&M, #631

1M91C11A56R715026 - Texas A&M, #632

1M91C11A76R715027 - Texas A&M, #633

1M91C11A96R715028 - Texas A&M, #634

1M91C11A06R715029 - Texas A&M, #635

1M91C11A76R715030 - Texas A&M, #636

1M91C11A96R715031 - Texas A&M, #637

1M91C11A06R715032 - Texas A&M, #638

1M91C11A26R715033 - Texas A&M, #639

1M91C11A46R715034 - Texas A&M, #640

1M91C11A66R715035 - Texas A&M, #641

1M91C11A66R715036 - Texas A&M, #642

1M91C11A86R715037 - Texas A&M, #643

1M91C11AX6R715038 - Texas A&M, #644

 

*VIN number may not exist.

**MTS conversation, (5/27/11), bus still in Roswell in “state of disarray.”

***MTS conversation,(5/27/11), bus still in Altoona, PA after engine fire. May be a R80-TLW model but simply labeled as "TRANSIT."

****Perhaps affixed with a model designation of “06M,” according to MBS publication. NJT Demo VINs were obtained from this issue.

*****Tested at Penn State BTRC in Altoona, PA, on 2/13/07; remains in Roswell

 

I need to double check the 4107; thought I had reason to believe that was the case previously, but I forget. May have had photos from Foxwoods that showed the number, but I need to dig them up from an external hard drive.

 

I'm rather intrigued by the Artesia bus. Quite frankly, I wonder if it even has a full MTS vin, because other documentation for MTS' recalls -- interior lighting, for one, which shouldn't be much different on a HF WFD bus than a HF NFD coach -- only addresses the Somerset, Pueblo, and Texas buses. If this were truly a full customer coach and subject to the same recall, it should have appeared on this list. I'm siding with Trevor that this may have a Nova-ish VIN, and may be one of several missing Nova SNs.

 

Frankly, we don't even know when it was built and/or sold, for that matter -- only that it supposedly has the 001 number. And if you're talking to the same employee I am, he wasn't really around when that bus/ this mess was happening.

 

If you're wondering about 006, you can verify that VIN on the Altoona BTRC database.

 

I shouldn't feel guilty about this, but I do apologize for not having the full data in the (now old) book. As I wrote then, at the time of printing, MTS wasn't providing any information whatsoever and the NHTSA/ODI records that made much of this list possible simply did not exist.

 

-Evan T. McCausland

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Thanks!

 

Now about the Artesia bus, I double checked, and was assured that it carries MTS VIN 001. This came directly from the same person you contact at MTS, and one additional person vouched for that as well.

 

The bus also has the same build as the standard MTS buses, with the exception of no rear door, and the WFD module.

 

I'm currently in the process of obtaining a pic of the build plate.

 

And yes 002 has just about had it! There are all kinds of parts removed from that thing.

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Thanks Ev on clearing this confusion up.

 

However, was the TAMU units built new, or was those NJT rejects because when I got the tour of the TAMU facility, ALL of the MTSs on the property had NJT interiors and spec items.

 

Also, where is NJT 4102?

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Thanks Ev on clearing this confusion up.

 

However, was the TAMU units built new, or was those NJT rejects because when I got the tour of the TAMU facility, ALL of the MTSs on the property had NJT interiors and spec items.

 

Also, where is NJT 4102?

 

No, they are all NJT rejects.(004-005, 009-038) The only one not to be sold was the Alttona bus 006, which was also built to NJT specs.

 

4102 is Foxwoods #500 from what I was told......

 

I didn't notice that on his list....

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Ok so new confusion,

 

You have FW as 4102-4106 and Evan has it as 4103-4107.......So which one is it, LOL!

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Just because they're NJT spec doesn't mean a thing. Initially, Pueblo's two were supposed to be identical to Puerto Rico's last Novas. That didn't exactly happen...plenty of customers, I think, were talked into NJT specs even if they were non rejects, only

so they could get buses quicker.

 

I'll double check my FWoods photos but im almost completely sure 500 is 4103. Numbers are still on the destination panels...

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Just because they're NJT spec doesn't mean a thing. Initially, Pueblo's two were supposed to be identical to Puerto Rico's last Novas. That didn't exactly happen...plenty of customers, I think, were talked into NJT specs even if they were non rejects, only

so they could get buses quicker.

 

I'll double check my FWoods photos but im almost completely sure 500 is 4103. Numbers are still on the destination panels...

 

Definitely more confusion......

 

However, I was informed that all the buses were built for NJT before TAMU purchased theirs.

 

They initially took 20 of the buses, loved them, then asked how many were left. MTS said 5, and the rest is history!

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What's the confusion? Not every customer that has an njt spec bus has an njt reject. Case in point: Pueblo. That's all. You may be right about the TAMU buses, but I had been told differently at one point.

 

Heading home to scan through my photos.

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What's the confusion? Not every customer that has an njt spec bus has an njt reject. Case in point: Pueblo. That's all. You may be right about the TAMU buses, but I had been told differently at one point.

 

Heading home to scan through my photos.

 

My phoyo of 504 sadly obscures the NJT number, but I have photos that prove 500 = 4103; 502 = 4105; 503 =4106. Will post tomorrow.

 

Edit: found a good one that shows 504 = 4107!!

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What's the confusion? Not every customer that has an njt spec bus has an njt reject. Case in point: Pueblo. That's all. You may be right about the TAMU buses, but I had been told differently at one point.

 

Heading home to scan through my photos.

 

Even the seat fabric is NJT...

 

http://www.ttmg.org/pages/millennium/tamu-millennium.html

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My phoyo of 504 sadly obscures the NJT number, but I have photos that prove 500 = 4103; 502 = 4105; 503 =4106. Will post tomorrow.

 

Ok, thank you for clearing that up.....

 

 

 

What's the confusion? Not every customer that has an njt spec bus has an njt reject. Case in point: Pueblo. That's all. You may be right about the TAMU buses, but I had been told differently at one point.

 

Heading home to scan through my photos.

 

Yes those TAMU buses are 100% NJT. The only one's that are not are the 2 Pueblo purchased. Those are basically Puerto Rico AMA spec'd.

 

Those were the only 2 customers customers MTS built NFD's for.

 

 

So now the confusion...... Where the hell is 4102?:confused:

 

The only logical explanation for that would have to be 1M91C11AX6R715006, the NJT spec'd Engineering/Altoona Bus.....

 

I did some some more investigating because this is even more interesting now, than it was when I posted it!

 

I was told 4101 failed audit inspection. So reworks and upgrades were done starting with 4102. 4103 would have been the next bus delivered. Followed by a 4104. Then a re-delivery of 4201, and 4101, then 4102.

 

Now this is where my theory kicks in.....

 

Agent 006 has to be 4102, the Altoona bus!! Why else is it one missing component away from being scrap?

 

NJT could critique the bus from bumper to bumper, then 4102 would head off to be tested....:confused:

 

Trevor, do you have interior shots of this bus?

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Ok, thank you for clearing that up.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

So now the confusion...... Where the hell is 4102?:confused:

 

The only logical explanation for that would have to be 1M91C11AX6R715006, the NJT spec'd Engineering/Altoona Bus.....

 

I did some some more investigating because this is even more interesting now, than it was when I posted it!

 

I was told 4101 failed audit inspection. So reworks and upgrades were done starting with 4102. 4103 would have been the next bus delivered. Followed by a 4104. Then a re-delivery of 4201, and 4101, then 4102.

 

Now this is where my theory kicks in.....

 

Agent 006 has to be 4102, the Altoona bus!! Why else is it one missing component away from being scrap?

 

NJT could critique the bus from bumper to bumper, then 4102 would head off to be tested....:confused:

 

Trevor, do you have interior shots of this bus?

 

Here is my interior photo of a Foxwood Unit and a TAMU unit...

 

Foxwoods_Millennium_Interior.jpg

Foxwoods

 

TAMU_Millennium_Interior.jpg

TAMU

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One more I forgot....

 

Part of the Artesia bus was supposed to be for DART. Not the way it is now, but the entire front of the bus was supposedly for bus 5701, which was never built.

 

5700 was built, but never delivered.

 

The rest of the parts would have been for Nova's next T-Drive bus.

 

So now I will have to get the VIN off the 42.5 foot low floor!:confused: Do you have that Evan?

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