AP Exclusive: Medicaid for the middle class?

[East New York]

So just because in your mind, because they don't "contribute to the U.S. as citizens do," they don't have the right to experience the freedom and protection of the law we all enjoy? They don't enjoy the natural rights that all people are born with? If we deny them the protection of the law, can we truly say that we are one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all? Explain why they are willing to work picking crops while being paid some low-a** wages and in some had conditions. You might as well cite Chief Justice's Roger Taney's opinion in Dred Scott, because it seems to emphasize your position.

 

These rights should very well be denied until the time these people become citizens. Until then, they are just contributing to the monetary problems of this country.

 

So no, they DO NOT have the right to "experience the freedom and protection of the law we all enjoy," until they legally become citizens.

 

Except the process to legally emigrate to the US is ridiculously complex, time consuming, and costly. Speaking as an immigrant who came to the USA legally, it has taken me over a decade to even *start* the process to get a Green Card. And even then, its another 10 years until Citizenship possibilities even arise. So don't give me all this "shoulda, woulda, coulda." Poor Mexican families (for example) who don't have a dime to their name do not have the option of coming to America legally. Either they risk breaking the USA's laws and come there with the possibility of putting food on the table, or they starve in Mexico. In those circumstances, which do you think would be more attractive to them? When you can't feed your family, the threat of deportation or even jail time isn't that much of a deterrent.

 

So in the process we all have to suffer as they continue to use our resources illegally??? No to sound insensitive...... But it's not out fault they were born in poor countries.....

 

And acquiring citizenship is not as complex and costly as you are making it out to be either.

 

And even if it was... What gives them the right to access services that some of our own citizens can't?

[Tokkemon]

So in the process we all have to suffer as they continue to use our resources illegally??? No to sound insensitive...... But it's not out fault they were born in poor countries.....

 

How are you suffering directly from an illegal in a state you're not a part of? If anything they help with the economy by doing jobs regular Americans refuse to do.

 

And acquiring citizenship is not as complex and costly as you are making it out to be either.

 

Yes, it is. I'm living in it. You were born here so you wouldn't know about how it affects peoples lives (I'm not talking solely legally here).

 

And even if it was... What gives them the right to access services that some of our own citizens can't?

 

What do they get that normal citizens can't get?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

These rights should very well be denied until the time these people become citizens. Until then, they are just contributing to the monetary problems of this country.

 

So no, they DO NOT have the right to "experience the freedom and protection of the law we all enjoy," until they legally become citizens.

 

 

 

So in the process we all have to suffer as they continue to use our resources illegally??? No to sound insensitive...... But it's not out fault they were born in poor countries.....

 

And acquiring citizenship is not as complex and costly as you are making it out to be either.

 

And even if it was... What gives them the right to access services that some of our own citizens can't?

 

People come here because:

1) Cause they gotz all da jobs!

2) Cause dey gotz all da moolah!

 

 

I think Tokkemon does have a point. Immigration to the U.S. can be quite difficult esp. depending on our relationship with the country involved. Even though I am elegible for Italian citizenship because of my father's parents immigrating from Sicily, I had a hard time just getting my Visa to go to Italy because you are seen as "the outsider" unless you are an Italian citizen. You are required to have all of your papers in order, as well as show that you can financially support yourself while in the country, and even with all of that they can still deny you if they want to. I know we are talking about the U.S. but getting legal status or entry into the country is certainly not easy and is costly.

 

Also, many people come here illegally not only because of the jobs and wealth that the country has, but because they feel as if the U.S. owes them this due to past stances taken by the U.S. against their respective countries and the leaders that have been put into power by the U.S. or with U.S. influence in some cases. For example, some Mexicans feel that the U.S. owes them something because they feel as if the U.S. stole most of the land from them that is out west in particular. They also see some of the U.S. policies that the U.S. has against Mexico is impeding their chances of prospering in their respective country, so in a way you can argue that while it isn't Americans citizens that are to blame, the U.S. gov't certainly is to blame. People wonder what the U.S. is doing in this country and that country, but the argument could be made that the country's meddling has a lot to do with what the financial wealth that the country holds today and why so many folks who come here illegally feel entitled to come here even though they are breaking the law.

 

Despite all of that, that does not excuse illegal immigration. The citizens in their respective countries should be doing more to push their gov't to do more for its people. Naturally a super power like the U.S. will always look to manipulate situations so that it favours them, just as any other country would, so that is sort of water under the bridge.

 

 

Also, I see no point in having laws on the books if we're going to allow folks to just walk into the country just because they're poor and feel that the U.S. has put policies in place that hurt their respective countries. First off there is an enormous security concern and second, we simply cannot afford to be the Mother Teresa of the world and save everyone with an unemployment rate over 9% and a spiraling debt problem. We seem to overlook how many poor American citizens there are here, despite the wealth that this country has, so how can we take care of someone who is here illegally when we can't even take care of our own countrymen??

 

Now Tokkemon is a Canadian. I wonder what he thinks about the current situation that Canada is dealing with and the swarm of immigrants flocking to Canada for free healthcare on the Canadian taxpayers' dime? A Canadian colleague of mine and I were discussing how taxes have been raised and such as a result of the influx of immigrants abusing the health system there. The point is even generous countries like Canada simply cannot afford to help everyone that crosses the Canadian border just because. I strongly support the following:

 

-Wealthy countries doing more to allow LEGAL immigration to their respective countries, but keeping close tabs on who and how many people are entering to protect the interests of the country overall

 

-Doing more to address ILLEGAL immigration and not simply throwing money at the problem. Europe (particularly Western Europe) is currently dealing with this problem with Africa and parts of Eastern Europe but is not truly addressing it as it should be to stop the tide of illegal immigration. People do not want to leave their countries, but their financial situations often times force them to, so more needs to be done so that they don't contemplate leaving in the first place. For those who must immigrate, create a situation where these people are here legally and are fully integrated into whatever society they go to and speak the language and know the culture. The citizens of the respective countries are owed this much seeing what wealthier countries pay by way of taxes.

 

-Doing more to limit immigration in general. Even with stricter legal immigration laws, countries need to limit immigration in general. Each country needs to take care of their citizens first before worrying about immigrants. Countries across Western Europe are taking strong stances on immigration and that is certainly the way to go to protect its citizens and see that new immigrants that do come in are adapting and contributing to the country overall.

[SI Subway]

If their country doesn't "gotz all da jobs and all da moolah", however, that's their problem not ours. And if their solution is to violate a law in another country, then that's also their problem.

 

We can be nice and help them. And it turns into our problem if they successfully get here.

 

But if their solution is to obtain the proper visas, come here, and follow the path to legal citizenship until they have it by filing all necessary paperwork and working as a legal immigrant in the meantime....then I will be the first to welcome them with open arms.

 

No, I'll be first!!!:mad: You go next!

 

Except the process to legally emigrate to the US is ridiculously complex, time consuming, and costly.

 

Not really. How long did it take for Ellis Island immigrants to become citizens?

Honestly, I would have stayed in Canada for the lower taxes, free health care, and lack of war.

 

If anything they help with the economy by doing jobs regular Americans refuse to do.

 

How does that help? Doing jobs that regular americans can't breaks down the economy.

[Tokkemon]

Not really. How long did it take for Ellis Island immigrants to become citizens?

Honestly, I would have stayed in Canada for the lower taxes, free health care, and lack of war.

 

Canada has higher taxes and it pays for said health care. It is not free.

 

As for Ellis Island, that was back in the day, when you didn't have to pay over $1,000 in fees for an application and wait over 10 years to go through the process. This is why Ellis Island no longer exists today. Because the immigration laws are far stricter than they were.

 

And here's the irony: There are more immigrants being allowed to enter the US today than in any other time in history.

[SI Subway]

Canada has higher taxes and it pays for said health care. It is not free.

 

I'm counting stuff not called "taxes", but might as well be.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Canada has higher taxes and it pays for said health care. It is not free.

 

That may be true, but I doubt Canadians love paying more taxes for illegal immigrants that are abusing the system.

[Tokkemon]

Oh heh. Like the tolls on the bridge or higher-than-necessary fares?

[Trainmaster5]

I'm going into my history books for a minute so bear with me. In my lifetime the USA was at it's economic peak from the Eisenhower administration to the mid '60's. Yes, there were a few slight downturns in that era, but the country prospered as a whole. It was a country with a mainly Democratic Congress and a Republican administration and it worked economically. GE, GM,Ford, US Steel, Alcoa, DuPont, RCA, they were all thriving. Ask the Tea Party, Republicans, Blue Dog Democrats, and their ilk what the tax rates were back then.The fact is the maximum rates were HIGHER. I see people crying about overtaxation and benefits today in the newspapers and on these forums and it finally opened my eyes. The "dumbing down of America" has finally come to pass. In comparision to what has been called America's finest era there is no one, repeat, no one, who is being overtaxed in 2011 by the US government. The states and localities may have their grubby hands too far in your pockets but the IRS damn sure doesn't. I'm inclined to side with Subway Guy on this one. Restructure the Federal tax code and use the revenue to better the country, people and infrastructure.The so-called greatest country in the world is at war with itself over health care for it's citizens ?. In the greatest country that should be a right for ALL LEGAL Americans. That's what makes Scandanavians, among others, have a greater life expectancy than Americans. We, as a people, have to wake up and take care of us, because there are those among us who are not playing the same game. I believe the catchphrase of the movie was " greed is good". That was BS then and it's BS now. We're all in this together, whether you believe it or not.

[East New York]

I'm going into my history books for a minute so bear with me. In my lifetime the USA was at it's economic peak from the Eisenhower administration to the mid '60's. Yes, there were a few slight downturns in that era, but the country prospered as a whole. It was a country with a mainly Democratic Congress and a Republican administration and it worked economically. GE, GM,Ford, US Steel, Alcoa, DuPont, RCA, they were all thriving. Ask the Tea Party, Republicans, Blue Dog Democrats, and their ilk what the tax rates were back then.The fact is the maximum rates were HIGHER. I see people crying about overtaxation and benefits today in the newspapers and on these forums and it finally opened my eyes. The "dumbing down of America" has finally come to pass. In comparision to what has been called America's finest era there is no one, repeat, no one, who is being overtaxed in 2011 by the US government. The states and localities may have their grubby hands too far in your pockets but the IRS damn sure doesn't. I'm inclined to side with Subway Guy on this one. Restructure the Federal tax code and use the revenue to better the country, people and infrastructure.The so-called greatest country in the world is at war with itself over health care for it's citizens ?. In the greatest country that should be a right for ALL LEGAL Americans. That's what makes Scandanavians, among others, have a greater life expectancy than Americans. We, as a people, have to wake up and take care of us, because there are those among us who are not playing the same game. I believe the catchphrase of the movie was " greed is good". That was BS then and it's BS now. We're all in this together, whether you believe it or not.

 

I agree 100%, and I rest my case....:tup:

 

The sad part...... What you posted makes absolutely no sense to a few of these guys and gals!

[SubwayGuy]

Except the process to legally emigrate to the US is ridiculously complex, time consuming, and costly. Speaking as an immigrant who came to the USA legally, it has taken me over a decade to even *start* the process to get a Green Card. And even then, its another 10 years until Citizenship possibilities even arise. And this is for a WASP male from CANADA! Imagine how it would be for a non-white Catholic person in the Xenophobic states of the South? So don't give me all this "shoulda, woulda, coulda." Poor Mexican families (for example) who don't have a dime to their name do not have the option of coming to America legally. Either they risk breaking the USA's laws and come there with the possibility of putting food on the table, or they starve in Mexico. In those circumstances, which do you think would be more attractive to them? When you can't feed your family, the threat of deportation or even jail time isn't that much of a deterrent.

 

And in the meantime temporary visas can be obtained and renewed until that time is complete.

 

This is comparable to most other nations.

 

For example, if I want Slovak citizenship (and therefore EU citizenship), I would have to live and work there for EIGHT YEARS...

 

Getting citizenship is not as simple as joining a gym, nor should it be. The freedom to pick and choose your country of citizenship is NOT a birthright. Citizenship IS a birthright, but only in certain places based on certain conditions. If you want to change that, you have to go through a process to prove that you are serious about citizenship, and you're not just "trying it out." That's only fair. It is a serious and life altering decision, not a flavor of the week. And it should be hard to obtain, as such...not just in the US, but anywhere.

[SubwayGuy]

We can be nice and help them. And it turns into our problem if they successfully get here.

 

And we do "be nice and help them". Various government agencies make information about legally obtaining citizenship freely available to foreign nationals throughout the world.

 

But we do not owe them a thing the second they come here illegally in violation of US laws. And their problems don't become our problems...THEY become our problems. And all they deserve is a swift kick in the butt back to wherever they're from and send their government a bill for a new steel toe boot.

[SubwayGuy]

Poor Mexican families (for example) who don't have a dime to their name do not have the option of coming to America legally. Either they risk breaking the USA's laws and come there with the possibility of putting food on the table, or they starve in Mexico. In those circumstances, which do you think would be more attractive to them? When you can't feed your family, the threat of deportation or even jail time isn't that much of a deterrent.

 

And that's why you target the employers with penalties too. They have something to lose, so they'll do the legwork to make sure their employees are legal. If illegals can't get work here, they'll stop coming here illegally.

[SubwayGuy]

How are you suffering directly from an illegal in a state you're not a part of? If anything they help with the economy by doing jobs regular Americans refuse to do.

 

Illegals walk into hospitals and get treated. This costs US citizens money.

 

Illegals are not helping the economy because they are not filing taxes and reporting their income, so it is not taxed. If they send it to relatives in Mexico or wherever they are from, this sends wealth out of the country. They are also taking a job that an American could work. An American who in theory would be required to report and pay taxes on his/her income, and who at minimum would spend the money here in this country.

 

Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.

[SI Subway]

Oh heh. Like the tolls on the bridge or higher-than-necessary fares?

 

Yes, as well as up to $12,000 in "premiums", plus hundreds on "co-pays" and "deductibles", property tax, sales tax, and student loan payments. I know some of this doesn't go directly to the government, but they go to services that the government should already provide on its own. Many of the items I just listed provide for services that the higher income tax in Canada provides on its own.

[SI Subway]

And their problems don't become our problems...THEY become our problems.

 

That's what I said.

[Tokkemon]

Welp, ever since Trudeau was kicked out we've had a pretty responsible stance on keeping money under wraps and not spending it ridiculously.

[SI Subway]

Welp, ever since Trudeau was kicked out we've had a pretty responsible stance on keeping money under wraps and not spending it ridiculously.

 

That's why I like Canada.

[IntExp]

Illegals walk into hospitals and get treated. This costs US citizens money.

 

Illegals are not helping the economy because they are not filing taxes and reporting their income, so it is not taxed. If they send it to relatives in Mexico or wherever they are from, this sends wealth out of the country. They are also taking a job that an American could work. An American who in theory would be required to report and pay taxes on his/her income, and who at minimum would spend the money here in this country.

 

Illegal immigration is not a victimless crime.

 

You do know that some 'illegals' do pay taxes right? You are aware that they do spend their money here right, which does pump up the economy, yes?

 

While I agree that we must also punish the employers who are a driving force behind illegal immigration, we must take caution for those who come here for a better chance. Sure, not all of them come for good reasons, but the great majority does. They come here to work, to live, and the majority are grateful to this country- the country that symbolizes freedom, equality, and opportunity, unlike most of the countries from which they come from.

[SubwayGuy]

You do know that some 'illegals' do pay taxes right? You are aware that they do spend their money here right, which does pump up the economy, yes?

 

Not necessarily. Many illegals send the money back to help relatives who did not immigrate illegally.

 

A law abiding and tax paying citizen would pump up the economy more.

 

This is an invalid argument.

 

While I agree that we must also punish the employers who are a driving force behind illegal immigration, we must take caution for those who come here for a better chance. Sure, not all of them come for good reasons, but the great majority does. They come here to work, to live, and the majority are grateful to this country- the country that symbolizes freedom, equality, and opportunity, unlike most of the countries from which they come from.

 

If they come here for that better chance, then they can do like every one of our ancestors did at some point (unless you are a Native American) and IMMIGRATE LEGALLY.

 

I am not a bleeding heart, I am not anti-immigration. I believe what's fair is fair. If they respect the laws that guarantee citizens and legal immigrants freedom, then they must also respect the laws that require a process to citizenship...otherwise they don't deserve the benefits of citizenship.

[IntExp]

I am not a bleeding heart, I am not anti-immigration. I believe what's fair is fair. If they respect the laws that guarantee citizens and legal immigrants freedom, then they must also respect the laws that require a process to citizenship...otherwise they don't deserve the benefits of citizenship.

 

So to help them 'deserve' the benefits of citizenship, here is what I propose-

 

My Plan For Immigration Plan/Reform

 

For People Who Committed Major Crimes- (Rape, Assault, Homicide, Robbery, etc.)

 

They must be deported, no questions asked.

 

For People Who Are In Good Social Standing- (Follows the Laws of the United States, Pays their Taxes, etc.)

 

Must Know English

 

Must Be Living 7-10 Years in the United States or More.

 

Preference given if they have a Family and/or Kids who are under the Age of 18.

 

Must Be Active in Their Local Community.

 

For People Who Committed Minor Crimes.

 

MUST have not committed Any Crime for 5 Years

 

Must Be Active in Their Local Community.

 

Paid Their Taxes.

 

Must Know English.

 

Yes, I agree with you SubwayGuy, that we must punish employers for those that encourage immigration, which would send a strong message to dissuade immigration. I would also step up border security, and those who come after this bill was passed would be denied and sent back.

[SI Subway]

For People Who Committed Major Crimes- (Rape, Assault, Homicide, Robbery, etc.)

 

They must be deported, no questions asked.

 

For People Who Are In Good Social Standing- (Follows the Laws of the United States, Pays their Taxes, etc.)

 

Must Know English

 

Must Be Living 7-10 Years in the United States or More.

 

Preference given if they have a Family and/or Kids who are under the Age of 18.

 

Must Be Active in Their Local Community.

 

For People Who Committed Minor Crimes.

 

MUST have not committed Any Crime for 5 Years

 

Must Be Active in Their Local Community.

 

Paid Their Taxes.

 

Must Know English.

 

Yes, I agree with you SubwayGuy, that we must punish employers for those that encourage immigration, which would send a strong message to dissuade immigration. I would also step up border security, and those who come after this bill was passed would be denied and sent back.

 

Some changes I would make:

 

1:Bump the residency down to 6-9 years.

2:Erase "Active in community". There are some natural-born citizens that are not, why should we make it a requirement for immigrants?

3:Preference is given for what if they have a family?

4:SubwayGuy did not say that he wants to dissuade immigration in general, just dissuade the illegal kind.

[SubwayGuy]

So to help them 'deserve' the benefits of citizenship, here is what I propose-

 

My Plan For Immigration Plan/Reform

 

For People Who Committed Major Crimes- (Rape, Assault, Homicide, Robbery, etc.)

 

They must be deported, no questions asked.

 

For People Who Are In Good Social Standing- (Follows the Laws of the United States, Pays their Taxes, etc.)

 

Must Know English

 

Must Be Living 7-10 Years in the United States or More.

 

Preference given if they have a Family and/or Kids who are under the Age of 18.

 

Must Be Active in Their Local Community.

 

For People Who Committed Minor Crimes.

 

MUST have not committed Any Crime for 5 Years

 

Must Be Active in Their Local Community.

 

Paid Their Taxes.

 

Must Know English.

 

Yes, I agree with you SubwayGuy, that we must punish employers for those that encourage immigration, which would send a strong message to dissuade immigration. I would also step up border security, and those who come after this bill was passed would be denied and sent back.

 

And guess what...what you proposed is stricter than many bleeding hearts advocate. Obama wanted to let anyone who graduated with an advanced degree get citizenship. So I'm more inclined to agree on your side of the fence, with what you posted. I also would get rid of the "active in the community" thing, though, that's not relevant.

 

Personally I'd like to see something along the lines of 8 years residency, all taxes paid, no felony convictions, all income on the up and up, pass an English literacy and English fluency test, and pass a basic citizenship test (basic US history). 8 years residency must include legal temporary visas at all times before applying for permanent citizenship. A large lump sum "penalty" could be paid by people who did NOT have the proper visas for all 8 years, equivalent to 8 years visa fees + interest. People partially through the 8 years could pay the penalty for the number of years they were here illegally to be restored to "good standing" and then apply for visas for the remaining number of years.

 

This makes the government money, allows a difficult, but possible, path to citizenship for illegals who have been living here and on otherwise good behavior under the old and flawed system, and it is NOT a handout.

 

In the case of military service, 5 years of service with an honorary discharge from any branch of Armed Forces would be satisfactory to establish citizenship IMO.

 

Border patrol is a waste of money. They'd be better served not worrying about people "jumping the fence" and instead go after the OPPORTUNITY for them here by targeting employers. If there is no opportunity for illegals, they won't come over so much anymore. Border patrol should be relatively minimalist, same as any other border because catching someone is not going to stop them from trying again if the opportunity still exists.