Grand Concourse Posted July 4, 2011 Share #26 Posted July 4, 2011 I've tried various times in leaving, i can be lucky and get a bus when i get there or I just miss one and then the max wait would be about 30min. With no set time frame of when the bus shows up, it really doesn't matter if I leave even 30min early. The point is the wait will still be the issue. Remember, with longer buses, you 'eat up' space in the depot. So they are NOT going to keep them artic:rts at a 1:1 ratio. there will be service cuts [i won't say drastic cuts, but enough where service is just covered]. So for me, I don't gain from having to wait longer for a longer bus. And you're talking about me comparing apples to oranges. Like Acela said, I have not seen any decrease in service on lines with artics and the lines in question have such high ridership that there wouldn't be much to cut anyway. I mentioned the M14 because it has artics and has very good service, so I don't see the problem with them, so long as service isn't slashed terribly AND improvements are made to get buses moving quicker. But that is the ideal conditions. I have doubts about that. I mean sure I concider FB as one of the better depots in brooklyn, but still, I do have my doubts about any major changes. In an ideal world, with bus only lanes, you would have buses running back and forth without issues. But since buses shares lanes with cars, you will get a major backup that can really screw up service. And the longer the line, the more problems it will have. It doesn't matter artics have more capacity, if it gets stuck, then more buses behind will be delayed just as long making the waits much worse. Right now I prefer a shorter bus because I don't need an artic at 10am when there's 10 or so people on the bus. I do not want to wait a possible extra 15min and the bus is carrying 15 people. So you can claim the 'benefits' of the artics all you want, I am not changing my opinion of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 4, 2011 Share #27 Posted July 4, 2011 I've only clarified that as an example because of the ridership stats - M15 holds number one route in the city and the U.S.; and the B46 holds the rank at number 2, but in the city alone. Yeah I knew all about the bus ranking and such, but there really isn't much to cut on those lines anyway because the ridership is so high. I've tried various times in leaving, i can be lucky and get a bus when i get there or I just miss one and then the max wait would be about 30min. With no set time frame of when the bus shows up, it really doesn't matter if I leave even 30min early. But that is the ideal conditions. I have doubts about that. I mean sure I concider FB as one of the better depots in brooklyn, but still, I do have my doubts about any major changes. In an ideal world, with bus only lanes, you would have buses running back and forth without issues. But since buses shares lanes with cars, you will get a major backup that can really screw up service. And the longer the line, the more problems it will have. It doesn't matter artics have more capacity, if it gets stuck, then more buses behind will be delayed just as long making the waits much worse. Right now I prefer a shorter bus because I don't need an artic at 10am when there's 10 or so people on the bus. I do not want to wait a possible extra 15min and the bus is carrying 15 people. So you can claim the 'benefits' of the artics all you want, I am not changing my opinion of it. Yeah well the is aware of when artics are necessary and when they aren't. Perfect example is the M31 and M57 lines. Sometimes they'll run artics on 57th st but it's not like that all of the time. Only when 57th street gets very high usage, so that could all be worked out. But like Acela said, lines with very high usage really don't have much to cut if artics were put in because you have a steady flow of folks gathering at the stops, so I don't think it would matter too much anyway in terms of the frequencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acela Express Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share #28 Posted July 4, 2011 I've tried various times in leaving, i can be lucky and get a bus when i get there or I just miss one and then the max wait would be about 30min. With no set time frame of when the bus shows up, it really doesn't matter if I leave even 30min early. Well, we all know those 'times' are not actual, but more like "suggestions". In an ideal world, with bus only lanes, you would have buses running back and forth without issues. But since buses shares lanes with cars, you will get a major backup that can really screw up service. And the longer the line, the more problems it will have. It doesn't matter artics have more capacity, if it gets stuck, then more buses behind will be delayed just as long making the waits much worse. This is based on a theoretical decision you've assumed from the MTA -- that they will cut service due to arrival of artics. If someone can chime in here on the service of artics in the Bronx, it would be appreciated. Right now I prefer a shorter bus because I don't need an artic at 10am when there's 10 or so people on the bus. I do not want to wait a possible extra 15min and the bus is carrying 15 people. So you can claim the 'benefits' of the artics all you want, I am not changing my opinion of it. I don't think it's a personal decision to what bus you're looking to board, unless an RTS and artic arrives simultaneously. But, your theory of a bus carrying 10 people at 10am vs. 70 during rush hour would fly on low-end lines. An example of that: the B36 -- the route gets hammered during rush hours, but smooth during the off-peak tours. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for the B44 - which is my home line BTW. There's a little over 100 runs on the route, and possibly, if you're lucky, you'll catch a bus with 10 people on it; otherwise you're looking at an all day busy line - peak and off-peak service. To accommodate your theory in retrospect - you can run artics during peak service and RTS during off-peak. Would that satisfy your need to sustain service reliability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted July 4, 2011 Share #29 Posted July 4, 2011 As far as leaving goes, I'm already factoring about an extra 30min ahead of my normal time anyway. It's just the fact of waiting for the bus that irritates me. Ideally: artics for the rush and RTSs for the midday would be fine, but with so many buses to keep track of, it might not end up like that. It basically comes down to what is availible to run. Yeah well the is aware of when artics are necessary and when they aren't. Perfect example is the M31 and M57 lines. Sometimes they'll run artics on 57th st but it's not like that all of the time. Only when 57th street gets very high usage, so that could all be worked out. But like Acela said, lines with very high usage really don't have much to cut if artics were put in because you have a steady flow of folks gathering at the stops, so I don't think it would matter too much anyway in terms of the frequencies. Alright, but would you be in favor of artics replacing your MCI buses for express service? I mean if you think it wouldn't matter. *Not being a smartass about it, but really, how would you feel if the MTA were to do that and potentially cutting some runs because 3 artics can do the job of 4 MCIs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest Glen Posted July 4, 2011 Share #30 Posted July 4, 2011 Alright, but would you be in favor of artics replacing your MCI buses for express service? I mean if you think it wouldn't matter. *Not being a smartass about it, but really, how would you feel if the MTA were to do that and potentially cutting some runs because 3 artics can do the job of 4 MCIs? nope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 4, 2011 Share #31 Posted July 4, 2011 As far as leaving goes, I'm already factoring about an extra 30min ahead of my normal time anyway. It's just the fact of waiting for the bus that irritates me. Ideally: artics for the rush and RTSs for the midday would be fine, but with so many buses to keep track of, it might not end up like that. It basically comes down to what is availible to run. Alright, but would you be in favor of artics replacing your MCI buses for express service? I mean if you think it wouldn't matter. *Not being a smartass about it, but really, how would you feel if the MTA were to do that and potentially cutting some runs because 3 artics can do the job of 4 MCIs? LOL... Artics have no place on express bus routes, nor do they travel as fast as MCIs do on the expressway. We have coach buses for a reason and people are not expected to stand when paying $5.50 each way. The only reason I was for the artics is because if done right they can allow for more comfortable commutes, this way folks can actually sit down for their $2.25 and not be packed in like sardines, but I would not support them if that meant significant decreases in frequencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted July 4, 2011 Share #32 Posted July 4, 2011 I'm not saying they would, I'm saying how would you like it if you had to wait longer for your bus to show up because the MTA decided they'll run longer buses on your routes. It was a hypothetical point. Because you keep 'singing the praises' about how artics are so 'wonderful'. Oh sure, you don't care because you ride the express buses. So no wonder why my points aren't getting across to you. My points about artics are that if services are cut so that the same amount of people are transported, then it makes no difference in terms of supposedly 'relieving the overcrowding'. So if you want to keep thinking of things as the glass being half full, then fine... nope Another 'thoughtful post'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 4, 2011 Share #33 Posted July 4, 2011 I'm not saying they would, I'm saying how would you like it if you had to wait longer for your bus to show up because the MTA decided they'll run longer buses on your routes. It was a hypothetical point. Because you keep 'singing the praises' about how artics are so 'wonderful'. Oh sure, you don't care because you ride the express buses. Uh actually I do care because I do use the local buses more often than you think. Don't forget that I was brought up in Brooklyn, so I'm quite familiar with most of the routes there. If you read my post I said I would support them assuming that there weren't any significant decreases in the frequencies. I mean who would support decreased frequencies aside from cheapos like checkmate and Amtrak? LOL I support anything that will make passengers' experiences traveling on public transportation better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted July 4, 2011 Share #34 Posted July 4, 2011 Ok then. But I'll say this for the last time, we are assuming there won't be drastic cuts to service. But that is in ideal conditions and with the budget issues the MTA has, I wouldn't be surprised they pulled a fast one on us and actually do cut service in terms of artics at longer headways. That's my main concern. So i've made my points clear against the artics and I'm done with this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted July 4, 2011 Share #35 Posted July 4, 2011 Ok then. But I'll say this for the last time, we are assuming there won't be drastic cuts to service. But that is in ideal conditions and with the budget issues the MTA has, I wouldn't be surprised they pulled a fast one on us and actually do cut service in terms of artics at longer headways. That's my main concern. So i've made my points clear against the artics and I'm done with this thread. lol... If that's your wish. It is a free country afterall... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted July 4, 2011 Share #36 Posted July 4, 2011 Queens and Brooklyn are getting Artics in the near future... Staten Island doesn't really need them in my opinion. Brooklyn had a test artic at flatbush some years back and it ran in service there are photos. The SI route with the highest ridership is the S79 and it doesn't come close to the ridership that would justify artics. Staten Island is getting them as well for the S79 How right you are, Grand Concourse, but, again, as I've said, this can happen on your average 40 ft. bus fleet too. It's probably happening this very minute, too. Now, aside from that statement - what doesn't justify operation of Artics at Flatbush Depot? They have 6 routes currently, with 4 of them as 'heavy' lines. Isn't the purpose to increase capacity on a single vehicle, as they've already established in Manhattan and the Bronx? Flatbush won't be getting any artics. Well, they aren't supposed to at least. The B44 SBS is slated to run out of Grand Avenue LOL... Artics have no place on express bus routes, nor do they travel as fast as MCIs do on the expressway. We have coach buses for a reason and people are not expected to stand when paying $5.50 each way. The only reason I was for the artics is because if done right they can allow for more comfortable commutes, this way folks can actually sit down for their $2.25 and not be packed in like sardines, but I would not support them if that meant significant decreases in frequencies. Not true at all sir! Artics can go as fast as MCI's, or any other bus for that matter, and there are Suburban Artics with express seating out there already in service with other cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acela Express Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share #37 Posted July 4, 2011 Flatbush won't be getting any artics. Well, they aren't supposed to at least. The B44 SBS is slated to run out of Grand Avenue Unless we have surveillance with MTA officials linking us with an official 'word', we can really only surmise their next move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainfan22 Posted July 4, 2011 Share #38 Posted July 4, 2011 LOL... Artics have no place on express bus routes, nor do they travel as fast as MCIs do on the expressway. I guess you have never ridden a Bee Line Neoplan... which have the same engine as the older MCIs in the MTA fleet (Detorit Diesel 60). I ridden a Neo on the Bee line's 3 route last week (which has a highway run btw) and that bus moved and offered a comfy ride to boot! Flatbush won't be getting any artics. Well, they aren't supposed to at least. The B44 SBS is slated to run out of Grand Avenue Woot! I remember I was one of the first people to suggest the 44 SBS run outta Grand Ave! So basically they kinda used my idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted July 4, 2011 Share #39 Posted July 4, 2011 Another 'thoughtful post'.... LMAO...you really thought you would get a non-juvenile post? You must have high expectations man, lololololol Staten Island is getting them as well for the S79 Yup, I could see them on the S74 and S78. I really doubt any other routes would have them as I doubt Castleton and Yukon can support Artics, but I could be wrong. Not true at all sir! Artics can go as fast as MCI's, or any other bus for that matter, and there are Suburban Artics with express seating out there already in service with other cities. But nothing beats the comfort and swiftness of an EXPRESS BUS! Oh wait.... With that out the way, here's my take on Artics vs. 40' buses...from a document about the 328 LFS Artic contract, it states that three Artics take four standard buses off the road, so the ratio of Artics to standards is 3:4, not 2:3, unless it changed from 2:3 to 3:4. My take on Artics is mixed. The MTA uses Artics as a scapegoat so they don't have to put extra buses on the road. In addition, Artics would be running on a line when they're clearly not needed at a certain time. I for one would not be pleased to have to wait longer for a bus that has more people in it, especially when the bus has greater capacity. You'd think you'd have more room when in turn you don't get what you had bargained for. That's a double slap in the face for $2.25. If the MTA is going to place Artics on a route that has growing ridership, they should replace the standard buses with Artic buses at an equal ratio of 1:1, and not at an offset ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q43LTD Posted July 4, 2011 Share #40 Posted July 4, 2011 nope I thought you weren't trying to emulate that "jerk" from subcrap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East New York Posted July 4, 2011 Share #41 Posted July 4, 2011 Unless we have surveillance with MTA officials linking us with an official 'word', we can really only surmise their next move. This was confirmed to me over a year ago. Doesn't mean things won't change, but as of right now, it's Grand Avenue. Woot! I remember I was one of the first people to suggest the 44 SBS run outta Grand Ave! So basically they kinda used my idea! Yeah, and there is really nowhere else for the B44 SBS to go anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted July 4, 2011 Share #42 Posted July 4, 2011 Exactly, I don't think Flatbush is equipped for Artics so it would make sense for the +SBS portion of the route to be out of Grand Avenue since that depot is equipped, whereas the local portion would remain at Flatbush. It's unheard of to have local and limited/+SBS operations out of different depots but I don't see how that would pose much of a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Bus Co. Posted July 4, 2011 Share #43 Posted July 4, 2011 ...from a document about the 328 LFS Artic contract, it states that three Artics take four standard buses off the road, so the ratio of Artics to standards is 3:4, not 2:3, unless it changed from 2:3 to 3:4. Let's do some math... A ratio of 2:3 would represent, approximately, a seat-for-seat exchange (2x60=120; 3x40=120). The 3:4 ratio allows for a 12.5% increase in capacity (3x60=180; 4x40=160; 180/160 = 1.125) while still reducing operating costs. My take on Artics is mixed. The MTA uses Artics as a scapegoat so they don't have to put extra buses on the road. In addition, Artics would be running on a line when they're clearly not needed at a certain time. I for one would not be pleased to have to wait longer for a bus that has more people in it, especially when the bus has greater capacity. I thought there were guidelines for selecting routes for conversion, one of which was very short headways so that the increase in headways wouldn't be very noticeable. If the MTA is going to place Artics on a route that has growing ridership, they should replace the standard buses with Artic buses at an equal ratio of 1:1, and not at an offset ratio. Agreed. At the very least, I'd stay with 1:1 off-peak and 3:4 or 4:5 during peak hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 5, 2011 Share #44 Posted July 5, 2011 Ok then. But I'll say this for the last time, we are assuming there won't be drastic cuts to service. But that is in ideal conditions and with the budget issues the MTA has, I wouldn't be surprised they pulled a fast one on us and actually do cut service in terms of artics at longer headways. That's my main concern. So i've made my points clear against the artics and I'm done with this thread. Arctics are used on high ridership rtes for a reason they would have to be stupid to reduce service on those rtes as they would get huge backlash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cait Sith Posted July 5, 2011 Share #45 Posted July 5, 2011 Arctics are used on high ridership rtes for a reason they would have to be stupid to reduce service on those rtes as they would get huge backlash Artics on high ridership routes = reduction of service = less 40ft buses on the road... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 5, 2011 Share #46 Posted July 5, 2011 LMAO...you really thought you would get a non-juvenile post? You must have high expectations man, lololololol Yup, I could see them on the S74 and S78. I really doubt any other routes would have them as I doubt Castleton and Yukon can support Artics, but I could be wrong. But nothing beats the comfort and swiftness of an EXPRESS BUS! Oh wait.... With that out the way, here's my take on Artics vs. 40' buses...from a document about the 328 LFS Artic contract, it states that three Artics take four standard buses off the road, so the ratio of Artics to standards is 3:4, not 2:3, unless it changed from 2:3 to 3:4. My take on Artics is mixed. The MTA uses Artics as a scapegoat so they don't have to put extra buses on the road. In addition, Artics would be running on a line when they're clearly not needed at a certain time. I for one would not be pleased to have to wait longer for a bus that has more people in it, especially when the bus has greater capacity. You'd think you'd have more room when in turn you don't get what you had bargained for. That's a double slap in the face for $2.25. If the MTA is going to place Artics on a route that has growing ridership, they should replace the standard buses with Artic buses at an equal ratio of 1:1, and not at an offset ratio. My take is arctics are a last resort and only on rtes that are extreme sardine cans would they be useful what does an express bus have to do with an articulated??? they are used for different route formats. NYC arctics are for limited and local rtes and coaches are for express buses. However a suburban articulated is better for rush hour only service on heavy routes very heavy ones so instead of having 4 buses bunch you just have 2 articulateds or just one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LRG Posted July 5, 2011 Share #47 Posted July 5, 2011 I don't think I've ever heard of an articulated over the road bus...I know there were MCI Classic Articulateds but the MTA and the private bus lines never ran those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grand Concourse Posted July 5, 2011 Share #48 Posted July 5, 2011 Artics on high ridership routes = reduction of service = less 40ft buses on the road... Which has been my point from the start. No surprise there. People that don't see this are either full of it or they think the picture is rosy and the MTA 'won't dare cut service'. *would've hit the thanks button if it was showing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
error46146 Posted July 5, 2011 Share #49 Posted July 5, 2011 Keep in mind that articulated buses are much longer than your typical bus and require much more space to maneuver therefore they cannot fit on all routes..there are some routes with turns that a standard-length bus can barely handle, much less an articulated bus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted July 5, 2011 Share #50 Posted July 5, 2011 Which has been my point from the start. No surprise there. People that don't see this are either full of it or they think the picture is rosy and the MTA 'won't dare cut service'. *would've hit the thanks button if it was showing I actually think that is why they are best used at rush hour on only the worst sardine cans not moderate/high ridership rtes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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