Can SAS Phase 1 do the job?

[checkmatechamp13]

If the is ever brought back, and you send the , and up to Second Avenue the would have to run from Bay Parkway to Astoria-Ditmars Boulevard at all times, because of the jamming of the Whitehall Street Station if the is terminated there, but you can terminate the new at Bay Ridge-95th Street, and 9th Avenue as well.

 

I think Bay Parkway would be worse as a full-time terminal. It's still a one track terminal and would end up jamming up the .

 

Like I said, 1/2 should terminate at Whitehalll and 1/2 should terminate in Brooklyn.

[Roadcruiser1]

How about Ninth Avenue?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I believe SAS Phase 1 will get a very good amount of ridership once it opens, but Lexington riders won't see a significant amount of relief from overcrowding until at least Phase 2 opens.

 

As for sending both the and trains up 2nd Avenue, I would certainly support doing that because it would relieve the Broadway line of all the merging the , and trains currently have to do. You'd have Broadway locals going to 60th Street and Broadway expresses going to 63rd Street/2nd Avenue, the way the tracks are set up without having to use any switches. But I don't think ridership on Phase 1 alone will justify both of the and the . I do think once SAS Phase 2 is up and running, then you might want to have both of them running to/from 125th. But then you'll have to have some other line (?) to replace the to Astoria and that line will have to run at least as frequently as the combined rush hour (N)/(Q) headways on Astoria today.

[TwoTimer]

Well the main Phase 1 idea was just to get something started, history suggests its easier to complete several small projects instead of one big one. Can you imagine a complete date if they went 63-125 in a straight shot?

[Law]

They could have the end at Whitehall and some at Kings Highway on Sea Beach, in the past during rush hour they send from CI via Sea Beach up to Whitehall, this can relieve some of the amount of trains.

[Quill Depot]

They could have the end at Whitehall and some at Kings Highway on Sea Beach, in the past during rush hour they send from CI via Sea Beach up to Whitehall, this can relieve some of the amount of trains.

 

I don't even think we should have a . Just run 1/2 (N)'s to Coney via the .

[checkmatechamp13]

I don't even think we should have a . Just run 1/2 (N)'s to Sea Beach via the .

 

But the point is that Second Avenue would have to have more frequent service than the current provides, so people suggested bringing the there as well. However, something has to serve Astoria at the service levels it currently has.

 

That's why people have proposed sending the and to 2nd Avenue (to minimize switching on the Broadway Express) and restoring the to serve Astoria (even if the was the only one serving the Second Avenue Line, the would probably become overcrowded as the sole Astoria Line)

[Roadcruiser1]

That would reduce train service on the Sea Beach Line. It won't be helpful to anyone. Also I don't think there is much need for a second service like a on the Sea Beach Line. The West End Line needs it more ever since we lost the (Mx).

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Well the main Phase 1 idea was just to get something started, history suggests its easier to complete several small projects instead of one big one. Can you imagine a complete date if they went 63-125 in a straight shot?

But aren't they planning to do just that with Phases 3 and 4? Phase 3 is supposed to have six stations from 55th to Houston Streets and Phase 4 will be from Houston to Hanover Square, crossing over or under multiple subway lines (with no transfers planned for any of them, except for the ( and at Grand Street - maybe). Like I said, I don't doubt that the three Phase 1 stations will be well-used, but I think it's not going to be until at least the opening of Phase 2 when we finally start to see less overcrowding on the , and trains.

[SubwayGuy]

I see some are going back to fantasy land...

 

let's at least make the pretense of TRYING to stay on topic...

[Gorgor]

Guys, face it. Phases 2, 3, and 4 will NEVER BE BUILT, and I highly doubt that Phase 1 will even open within the next 10 years.

 

You guys are all worried about where the is going to go... THE WILL NEVER EXIST.

[cotb16]

Guys, face it. Phases 2, 3, and 4 will NEVER BE BUILT, and I highly doubt that Phase 1 will even open within the next 10 years.

 

You guys are all worried about where the is going to go... THE WILL NEVER EXIST.

 

I agree with you on that one. And if they even start doing Phase 2 construction, they will end up messing with the wrong residents (whether they be from the Upper East Side or East Harlem) and result in a lawsuit that would end up delaying (and eventually cancelling) the SAS Construction.

[Roadcruiser1]

Phase 2 is utilizing existing tunnels. The tunnels for phase 2 already exist so I don't see why not phase 2 will come into existence. Here is a map that shows you part of the Second Avenue Subway already exists.

 

 

Here is the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/09/nyregion/09subway.html

 

You can see that the entire first phase requires tunneling as the tunnel structure doesn't exist, but you can tell that the tunnel sections for phase 2 exists, and just needs to be connected to complete phase 2. Not just that you can also see that a short section of phase 4 has been done as well. So basically the subway already exists in some parts, and just needs to be connected, but in other locations like right now in phase 1, phase 3, and in the large portions of phase 4 there would be a lot of digging and noise, because these parts doesn't even exist yet.

[TwoTimer]

My official prediction is we will see Phase 1 this decade (remember there are three years after 2016 lol), and Phase 2 next decade. 3 and 4 will fall by the wayside, the only evidence of them may be bellmouths around 63rd and 2nd not unlike others seen all over the system.

[Roadcruiser1]

Sadly at a time when many people around the world are expanding and constructing new metro lines every 5 years or so we aren't. Many nations like France would be laughing at how long it's taking us to build our Second Avenue Subway. Paris is actually building a Paris loop route starting on 2012, and will be fully completed by 2025 with their first section of the loop (A C shape route) being completed by 2019. In total their entire line would be 40 miles long, and will be 2 tracks wide, but we are building the Second Avenue Subway which is 8 miles long, and it will also be a 2 track wide route, and it will take an estimated 40-50 years to complete if it will ever reach Hanover Square from 125th Street. It's a sad day in America to know that other nations have beat us even in construction.

[Tokkemon]

Can we analyze WHY its taking so long?

[Gorgor]

Can we analyze WHY its taking so long?

 

Oh that's an easy one... because it's the MTA.

[SmallParkShuttle]

Oh that's an easy one... because it's the MTA.

 

It's more of "it's New York" than just the MTA. New York City is not very conducive to major public works (except the DEP, which has no one standing in their way). These things require a lot of various entities to work together, and when each entity sees its voice and concerns as the most important rather than seeing the "big picture", things go nowhere, fast.

[Tokkemon]

So why can't we get it together like in the old days when an entire new subway system was built in half a decade?

[Roadcruiser1]

Oh that is a very easy answer. People in this nation failed to dream big. Unlike other places like Paris (Planning 60 miles of metro lines in total to be completed by 2025), Shanghai (Planning 200 miles of metro lines in total to be completed by 2030 with multiple lines opening in between), or Sao Paulo (Planning 20 miles of metro lines in total to be completed on 2013 or a bit later) which are expanding their metro systems to serve people without a hint of complaints we complain about everything we do. How do people dream if people complain? Until we stop complaining and work together our dreams can't become reality.

[Roadcruiser1]

Oh yeah just an example here is how Shanghai's Metro System would look like after 2020. It isn't as easy as you think. There is a total of 22 lines on this map including the Magnetic Levitation Train. Compare this to what our subway map would look like on 2020 with finished transfers, and the other extensions being done. It's nowhere near the level of this map, and I am not advocating for China I am rooting for us. How can we sit here and let other people beat us especially in construction?

 

 

Guys we must get things started in this nation once again. If we don't no one will. Our nation must wake up and smell the coffee, and get back to stirring about, because other nations are starting to kick our behinds. If we let this happen in 50 years we will be nothing but laughingstocks. People would make fun of us, but our people in the past were never made fun of. In fact they proposed grand systems like the IND Second System.

 

 

This is what people proposed for our subway in the past. If you look at what we see today you will see a sad example that people are really beating us. If we can't get up and do things right we will fall behind, and we already are in terms of construction and production. People will try to beat us. What I am fearful of is China might beat us economically in 5-10 years. We can't sit here being idle and watch other people beat us. This is what America in the old days was about. We don't let people beat us we fu*king beat them.

[TwoTimer]

Well its capitalism, and they're psuedo socialism. What has to be understood is that we build for-profit (even tho TA is non-profit, the construction companies that head this are not). This is not like the Yankees using much of their own profit to build a new stadium to generate even more profits. Whatever "profit" (or in our language surplus) is at a year's end is reinvested the following year either in infrastructure or raises for its employees (TWU is big on pointing to surpluses when asking for raises with the "You can afford what we're asking based on 'X' surplus).

[Roadcruiser1]

We need the government to fund mass transit. I am only using China as an example. Paris and Sao Paulo is another example, and they are Democratic nations. We are getting beat not just by Communists, but by other Democratic countries. We really are laughingstocks.

[Grand Concourse]

For goodness sakes, how many times do you have to keep posting the same maps? Just post the damn links. We get it about the original IND or such subway extension plans. Posting the same damn maps 20 times isn't going to make a difference.

[Trainmaster5]

Returning to the original question. Phase 1 of the SAS will have very little effect on the IRT Lexington Lines and Phase 2 will not really help the ,, and lines, either. As someone pointed out earlier those lines are already crowded before they enter Manhattan during the am rush. They start to have crowds lessen at 59th St and at GCT. Therefore Phases 1 and 2 only benefit those East Side riders who commute to/from those areas. They will have the option of boarding either service to head to the CBD. The problem with the SAS phases 1 and 2 is it does nothing for eastern midtown or Wall Street workers below 63rd St and Lex. Yes, phase 1 can do the very limited job it's set up for but without phase 2 and especially phases 3 AND 4 online ASAP it's destined for a grade of D. Just my opinion. Carry on.