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Obama at wits' end over debt talks


MHV9218

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http://www.heritage.org/Research/Factsheets/2011/01/The-Debt-Ceiling-Time-Options-and-Action

 

the default is just a scare-tactic,

 

"Keeping the debt ceiling at its current level would not, in and of itself, risk default on the debt. Federal taxes will still be collected by the Treasury from which interest and principal on the debt should be paid. Since default is not immediately a realistic scenario, the federal government’s credit-worthiness would not be damaged."

 

all they need to do is make serious budget cuts, stop the never ending giveaways and freebies, and create an environment where business and the economy can thrive, instead of being shackled down by too much regulations.

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1) Your heavily-right slanted site is downplaying this hysterically. A default would be imminent, and Moody's has already shown their likely downgrade for us should we fail to raise the ceiling and see our bonds collapse. You need to read up on this from more than the far-right interpretation, because evidently they aren't paying attention to the real danger here.

 

2) Giving business a free market is what brought us into 2008's recession -- or did you miss that? Regulation is the safest bet for our economy.

 

3) Clearly it's an idealogical difference between Democrats and Republicans that a Democrat says tax the richest in our country a little more to provide services for the poor and middle class, and the Republican says get rid of their service, we need to make the rich richer... Fascinating.

 

4) Those never-ending giveaways and freebies are apparently the entire national debt, huh? Surely those "freebies" must have cost us more than the Bush tax cuts, huh?

 

We got out of a recession in 2000 and 2001 by providing a business friendly environment and by cutting taxes. The reason we got into a 2008 recession was because of policies like forcing banks to give out mortgages to people with no way of paying them back. The Economy was rolling along great in the earlier part of the 2000s decade.

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My 'simplistic' take on this is: printing more money and further devaluing the dollar is not the answer. There has to be a cap on the spending. $14 trillion? Are you f'in kidding me? That will never go away if the dollar's value continues to diminish.

States may as well break away from the nation and function on their own like independent countries.

 

Also I must ask, why are the 'richest' including those that make $250k? Have they taken into account people that live in tax heavy states like NY or CA? To people like that, that's probably middle class. Billionares and multimillionares are the ones that should be targeted in terms of taxation. But to single out people at the $200k mark are f'in kidding me.

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1) Your heavily-right slanted site is downplaying this hysterically. A default would be imminent, and Moody's has already shown their likely downgrade for us should we fail to raise the ceiling and see our bonds collapse. You need to read up on this from more than the far-right interpretation, because evidently they aren't paying attention to the real danger here.

 

2) Giving business a free market is what brought us into 2008's recession -- or did you miss that? Regulation is the safest bet for our economy.

 

3) Clearly it's an idealogical difference between Democrats and Republicans that a Democrat says tax the richest in our country a little more to provide services for the poor and middle class, and the Republican says get rid of their service, we need to make the rich richer... Fascinating.

 

4) Those never-ending giveaways and freebies are apparently the entire national debt, huh? Surely those "freebies" must have cost us more than the Bush tax cuts, huh?

 

You, sir, as just as biased as she is.

 

I agree that the debt ceiling should not be moved up, but the Republicans seem to have forgotten about the word "compromise." They don't care what they have to cut so long as they don't raise taxes. And the idiot public goes along with it because its a nice election platform. This is about political survival and clinging to an ideology that the politicians carefully fostered to grab votes. Likewise for the Dems who are trying to spend their way out of a recession that hasn't ended for the everyman.

 

But, if the day comes where the debt is defaulted on, watch out, because America will be in serious doodoo. I wouldn't be surprised if we see Greece-like revolts in this country, maybe even states against states.

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We got out of a recession in 2000 and 2001 by providing a business friendly environment and by cutting taxes. The reason we got into a 2008 recession was because of policies like forcing banks to give out mortgages to people with no way of paying them back. The Economy was rolling along great in the earlier part of the 2000s decade.

 

We didn't get out of a recession.

 

We replaced the popped tech bubble with a real estate bubble...which popped in 2008.

 

How many f***ing bubbles do we need to create and pop (each time destroying middle and working class Americans' savings) before the myopic-ly short sighted opinions of the staunchest so-called conservatives on here finally figures out with their addled little brains what the hell has been going on here for the last 30 years?

 

I'm calling YOUR bluff. Once again I would love to see someone give specific line items that can be cut out the budget that will create a budgetary surplus. And it goes WELL beyond saying "cut military spending, cut welfare, and cut food stamps" so let's not hear that canned soapbox act...

 

Taxing the rich is the ONLY way this gets avoided without raising the debt ceiling (making the problem WORSE down the road) or forcing deep cuts that will disproportionally harm working and middle class Americans to foot the bill for the rich b*tches who seem to habitually get whatever the f*** they want.

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there's plenty of environmental regulations that are holding things back, such as tapping our own oil reserves and getting oil shale converted into fuel, which would lower energy and fuel costs as well as getting off our dependency on the arabs for oil. There would be plenty of economic improvement if we could pay $1.29 for fuel again, less of peoples income would be going towards rising energy prices in both the gas station and the supermarket, cuz the stores have to raise prices to account for rising diesel fuel costs to get the stuff to the store.

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there's plenty of environmental regulations that are holding things back, such as tapping our own oil reserves and getting oil shale converted into fuel, which would lower energy and fuel costs as well as getting off our dependency on the arabs for oil. There would be plenty of economic improvement if we could pay $1.29 for fuel again, less of peoples income would be going towards rising energy prices in both the gas station and the supermarket, cuz the stores have to raise prices to account for rising diesel fuel costs to get the stuff to the store.

 

That does nothing about unemployment.

 

That does nothing about deficits.

 

That does nothing about three decades of bad monetary and fiscal policy by the central bank that has done nothing except turn profits for its shareholders while the dollar is continually devalued.

 

That does nothing about the trade deficit that sucks billions of dollars out of this nation each month.

 

That does nothing about punishing those who caused the present state of affairs and recapturing illegally obtained wealth to reduce debt.

 

In short, that does nothing about most things.

 

OK, it makes life a little easier for a lot of people who are already in debt. But it doesn't solve the debt crisis.

 

Try again.

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That does nothing about unemployment.

 

That does nothing about deficits.

 

That does nothing about three decades of bad monetary and fiscal policy by the central bank that has done nothing except turn profits for its shareholders while the dollar is continually devalued.

 

That does nothing about the trade deficit that sucks billions of dollars out of this nation each month.

 

That does nothing about punishing those who caused the present state of affairs and recapturing illegally obtained wealth to reduce debt.

 

In short, that does nothing about most things.

 

OK, it makes life a little easier for a lot of people who are already in debt. But it doesn't solve the debt crisis.

 

Try again.

 

It does provide Jobs, people gotta work those new oil rigs, and the oil shale machines. Theres trucking jobs for people to transport that new fuel and refine it.

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With a nation as dependent on oil as the United States is (read: cars) it would be common sense to get as much oil as possible for as cheap as possible as soon as possible. It is, whether we like it or not, the lifeblood of our economy. A simple $2 drop in the price per gallon would do WONDERS for the economy. Gas prices would fall and food prices would fall, the two most expensive things out there on a daily basis right now. This in turn would lead to lower shipping rates across the board, lower commutation costs, lower product prices, and, most importantly, more disposable income for people to spend on the economy. Finally that middle class guy can buy the iPad he's always wanted but couldn't get because he had to fill up his car to get to work.

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It does provide Jobs, people gotta work those new oil rigs, and the oil shale machines. Theres trucking jobs for people to transport that new fuel and refine it.

 

A drop in the bucket...

 

What part of 14 TRILLION dollars don't you understand?

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That does nothing about unemployment.

 

That does nothing about deficits.

 

That does nothing about three decades of bad monetary and fiscal policy by the central bank that has done nothing except turn profits for its shareholders while the dollar is continually devalued.

 

That does nothing about the trade deficit that sucks billions of dollars out of this nation each month.

 

That does nothing about punishing those who caused the present state of affairs and recapturing illegally obtained wealth to reduce debt.

 

In short, that does nothing about most things.

 

OK, it makes life a little easier for a lot of people who are already in debt. But it doesn't solve the debt crisis.

 

Try again.

 

You make the economy way more complicated than it is.

 

Supply and demand man. Supply and demand. Smack down the cheaters and let the system do its magic. Its been done before, it can be done again.

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With a nation as dependent on oil as the United States is (read: cars) it would be common sense to get as much oil as possible for as cheap as possible as soon as possible. It is, whether we like it or not, the lifeblood of our economy. A simple $2 drop in the price per gallon would do WONDERS for the economy. Gas prices would fall and food prices would fall, the two most expensive things out there on a daily basis right now. This in turn would lead to lower shipping rates across the board, lower commutation costs, lower product prices, and, most importantly, more disposable income for people to spend on the economy. Finally that middle class guy can buy the iPad he's always wanted but couldn't get because he had to fill up his car to get to work.

 

Ah yes buy the iPad made in China with the money that used to go to Saudi Arabia...

 

With solutions like these you guys should work for government you're great at suggesting changes that don't accomplish anything...

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You make the economy way more complicated than it is.

 

Supply and demand man. Supply and demand. Smack down the cheaters and let the system do its magic. Its been done before, it can be done again.

 

On the contrary. I'm a realist who recognizes that "supply and demand" goes the hell out the window the second you run a massive trade deficit to any foreign nation, much less several at once.

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A drop in the bucket...

 

What part of 14 TRILLION dollars don't you understand?

 

The part where that affects *the little guy* to filling up his car and feeding his kids at supper time.

 

Normal people don't give a crap about the long-term picture because the long-term picture may not exist for them.

 

Taxing the rich won't help either. They'll just move to tax havens like Hong Kong. Then you'll have no rich people left to tax! Its not a sustainable system.

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The part where that affects *the little guy* to filling up his car and feeding his kids at supper time.

 

Normal people don't give a crap about the long-term picture because the long-term picture may not exist for them.

 

Taxing the rich won't help either. They'll just move to tax havens like Hong Kong. Then you'll have no rich people left to tax! Its not a sustainable system.

 

No, their wealth will be taxed while their here. And if they're not here earning massive salaries, American companies become leaner and lose a lot of the fat on top...opening the door for a more sustainable pay scale at all levels of employment, and reducing production costs here in the USA.

 

Besides, history shows that the rich do not go fleeing when taxes increase on high PERSONAL INCOMES. Corporations flee when corporate tax rates go up. But I'm not suggesting that.

 

And normal people can care about whatever they want. Government is not supposed to make decisions based on "what normal people want." Government is not Santa Claus. Government is supposed to do what is healthy for the economy as a whole, in both the short and the long term...primarily focusing on the long term, but with some emphasis on the short also.

 

Government does not exist solely to gratify people's urge to have as much money as possible....because that money means nothing if it is VALUELESS as our dollar is rapidly becoming every time the money supply is increased.

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Remember when I posted this a few months back?

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28062

 

 

Well its getting closer and closer to becoming reality.

 

Raising the debt ceiling wont help, printing more money and taxes wont either..ALl the taxes in this country possible at 100% wont even cover our debt payments. This whole fight between Republicans and Dems is just a distraction from the inevitable for the masses.

 

Face it, this country enjoyed its hay day long enough. Those days are going to be long gone. We got to enjoy cheap gas while most places around the globe were paying double or more per gallon than we do. Our time is up. Everything is going to get more and more expensive and the poor will only get poorer..What middle class? I know people who were born and raised here who have already left America. The dollar is going to continue to plummet. Its not just Obama, weve been fleeced for the past 75 years. This didnt just happen with the few previous administrations..

 

Get used to the dollar being devalued and the standard of living to drop at least 25%.

 

Oh and Ben Bernanke is the greatest threat to America and should be labled a terrorist based on the definition set forth in the Patriot Act.

 

from 2008

watch?v=tJkGQJpJBSU

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No, their wealth will be taxed while their here. And if they're not here earning massive salaries, American companies become leaner and lose a lot of the fat on top...opening the door for a more sustainable pay scale at all levels of employment, and reducing production costs here in the USA.

 

Besides, history shows that the rich do not go fleeing when taxes increase on high PERSONAL INCOMES. Corporations flee when corporate tax rates go up. But I'm not suggesting that.

 

Heh. Read up on tax havens and you'll see what I mean. If you start taxing people 80%, they will fight or leave. You won't get away with it lying down. BTW, production costs have nothing to do with the CEO's salary. They have to do with, well, the COST OF PRODUCTION. One would think this is obvious. It costs money to acquire the natural resources, to turn them into widgets, to pay the widget-makers, to pay the benefits to the widget-makers, to pay unjustly high prices for unqualified widget-makers, to satisfy widget-maker unions etc. (lol :()

 

And normal people can care about whatever they want. Government is not supposed to make decisions based on "what normal people want." Government is not Santa Claus. Government is supposed to do what is healthy for the economy as a whole, in both the short and the long term...primarily focusing on the long term, but with some emphasis on the short also.

 

Government does not exist solely to gratify people's urge to have as much money as possible....because that money means nothing if it is VALUELESS as our dollar is rapidly becoming every time the money supply is increased.

 

Actually, in this country it does. The United States is a representative democracy. People elect their leaders based on their expected support of issues and needs in communities. The Government has a duty and mandate from the people to do what *they* want. And make no mistake, it is these "normal people" that make up the vast majority of the economy and eligible voters. We saw it in 2010. The Dems f'ed up and the Republicans got voted in. That's how the system works. If you don't like it, move to Sweden, where they're much more open to a socialist idea of the "best for the most people."

 

Just a side note, I believe in socialism, but I also believe people should be allowed to keep what they earn. People *should* give to the poor, but they should also not *have* to. That's why I'm a proud Canadian (and Christian) because we get the best of both worlds.

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Remember when I posted this a few months back?

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28062

 

 

Well its getting closer and closer to becoming reality.

 

Raising the debt ceiling wont help, printing more money and taxes wont either..ALl the taxes in this country possible at 100% wont even cover our debt payments. This whole fight between Republicans and Dems is just a distraction from the inevitable for the masses.

 

Face it, this country enjoyed its hay day long enough. Those days are going to be long gone. We got to enjoy cheap gas while most places around the globe were paying double or more per gallon than we do. Our time is up. Everything is going to get more and more expensive and the poor will only get poorer..What middle class? I know people who were born and raised here who have already left America. The dollar is going to continue to plummet. Its not just Obama, weve been fleeced for the past 75 years. This didnt just happen with the few previous administrations..

 

Get used to the dollar being devalued and the standard of living to drop at least 25%.

 

Oh and Ben Bernanke is the greatest threat to America and should be labled a terrorist based on the definition set forth in the Patriot Act.

 

Too bad gold won't save us! :(

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Heh. Read up on tax havens and you'll see what I mean. If you start taxing people 80%, they will fight or leave. You won't get away with it lying down. BTW, production costs have nothing to do with the CEO's salary. They have to do with, well, the COST OF PRODUCTION. One would think this is obvious. It costs money to acquire the natural resources, to turn them into widgets, to pay the widget-makers, to pay the benefits to the widget-makers, to pay unjustly high prices for unqualified widget-makers, to satisfy widget-maker unions etc. (lol :()

 

ARGGHHH!!! Get out of the textbook! This s*** does not work in the real world! They've been doing EXACTLY what you advocate for the last 15-20 years...and what has happened? NOTHING.

 

We've deregulated all of the financial industries that supposedly drive markets.

 

We've CUT taxes for the wealthy while doing very little to the taxes on the middle and working classes. WHERE ARE THE JOBS they promised?

 

We've added LOOPHOLES in the tax code to avoid taxing companies and individuals with supposedly valid reasons for doing certain things. What has this accomplished except complicating the tax code, allowing the rich to reduce their liability further, and making enforcement difficult?

 

We've ALLOWED businesses to pay their workers pretty much "what they feel they're worth" and real wages have stayed stagnant (adjusted for inflation) since the middle 1980's. Meanwhile the top 1% of incomes have gone up many times over! If this is true (and it is) the labor costs of production have not changed because adjusted for inflation the cost of labor in this country has not changed! But CEO salary IS, contrary to popular belief, built into a company's overhead (fixed costs) and passed on to customers.

 

We've ALLOWED THE FED to print more money, devalue currency, and prop up the economy with DEBT. It's at its end. Deficits have never been higher.

 

THIS IS NOT WORKING.

 

Actually, in this country it does. The United States is a representative democracy. People elect their leaders based on their expected support of issues and needs in communities. The Government has a duty and mandate from the people to do what *they* want. And make no mistake, it is these "normal people" that make up the vast majority of the economy and eligible voters. We saw it in 2010. The Dems f'ed up and the Republicans got voted in. That's how the system works. If you don't like it, move to Sweden, where they're much more open to a socialist idea of the "best for the most people."

 

Just a side note, I believe in socialism, but I also believe people should be allowed to keep what they earn. People *should* give to the poor, but they should also not *have* to. That's why I'm a proud Canadian (and Christian) because we get the best of both worlds.

 

The US is not a Republican Democracy. Democracy is rule by the majority, which is not nor ever has been what the US was. The USA is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC meaning that elected officials are elected to represent the people, but not to do exactly what the people want. They are elected because the people supposedly trust their judgment, and choose them to represent themselves.

 

That means those people are elected to take the best course of action for this nation. Well that all got shot to shit when money came into politics and large corporations and campaign financiers could "remind" politicians who put them there. Add a 24 hour news cycle driven by scandal and reality TV like bullshit (as opposed to facts about policy) and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

Normal people are not in the least bit happy with EITHER DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS and there is a big reason why. Because POLITICIANS NOW REPRESENT THE WEALTHY.

 

Without comprehensive reform, the same dog and pony show will continue, and every election cycle will see incumbents voted out, the other party in, like a seesaw, ultimately accomplishing nothing.

 

And please read up on what this country is "DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC" not "REPUBLICAN DEMOCRACY" before you say something stupid like telling me to move to Sweden.

 

A strong middle class is not socialist...get the name calling and the propoganda out of your vocabulary because it makes you look ignorant and incapable of debating the issues. A strong middle class is GOOD ECONOMICS and has been behind every successful civilization in modern history. It behooves EVERYONE (yes, even to some extent the rich) to have a HEALTHY, HAPPY, FINANCIALLY COMFORTABLE, AND EMPLOYED MIDDLE CLASS

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ARGGHHH!!! Get out of the textbook! This s*** does not work in the real world! They've been doing EXACTLY what you advocate for the last 15-20 years...and what has happened? NOTHING.

 

We've deregulated all of the financial industries that supposedly drive markets.

 

We've CUT taxes for the wealthy while doing very little to the taxes on the middle and working classes. WHERE ARE THE JOBS they promised?

 

We've added LOOPHOLES in the tax code to avoid taxing companies and individuals with supposedly valid reasons for doing certain things. What has this accomplished except complicating the tax code, allowing the rich to reduce their liability further, and making enforcement difficult?

 

We've ALLOWED businesses to pay their workers pretty much "what they feel they're worth" and real wages have stayed stagnant (adjusted for inflation) since the middle 1980's. Meanwhile the top 1% of incomes have gone up many times over! If this is true (and it is) the labor costs of production have not changed because adjusted for inflation the cost of labor in this country has not changed! But CEO salary IS, contrary to popular belief, built into a company's overhead (fixed costs) and passed on to customers.

 

We've ALLOWED THE FED to print more money, devalue currency, and prop up the economy with DEBT. It's at its end. Deficits have never been higher.

 

THIS IS NOT WORKING.

 

 

You forgot about that little thing called the Financial Collapse of 2008. Remember that? That kinds blew the doors open on all "progress". And, our great government spent more on the next few months than in the previous 10 years. That's why your view on it is skewed a little bit, or at least I hope so.

 

And no, the USA has never had true laissez-faire capitalism since 1929. So regulations have never stopped since FDR make it the sacred policy of the USA to have regulations on everything. No one really got away from it afterward because the Republicans were too self-absorbed to realize the problems or didn't have enough clout to fix anything, even Reagan, though he tried.

 

The US is not a Republican Democracy. Democracy is rule by the majority, which is not nor ever has been what the US was. The USA is a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC meaning that elected officials are elected to represent the people, but not to do exactly what they want. They are elected because the people supposedly trust their judgment, and choose them to represent themselves.

 

That means those people are elected to take the best course of action for this nation. Well that all got shot to shit when money came into politics and large corporations and campaign financiers could "remind" politicians who put them there. Add a 24 hour news cycle driven by scandal and reality TV like bullshit (as opposed to facts about policy) and you have a recipe for disaster.

 

Normal people are not in the least bit happy with EITHER DEMOCRATS OR REPUBLICANS and there is a big reason why. Because POLITICIANS NOW REPRESENT THE WEALTHY.

 

Without comprehensive reform, the same dog and pony show will continue, and every election cycle will see incumbents voted out, the other party in, like a seesaw, ultimately accomplishing nothing.

 

And please read up on what this country is "DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC" not "REPUBLICAN DEMOCRACY" before you say something stupid like telling me to move to Sweden.

 

A strong middle class is not socialist...get the name calling and the propoganda out of your vocabulary because it makes you look ignorant and incapable of debating the issues. A strong middle class is GOOD ECONOMICS and has been behind every successful civilization in modern history. It behooves EVERYONE (yes, even to some extent the rich) to have a HEALTHY, HAPPY, FINANCIALLY COMFORTABLE, AND EMPLOYED MIDDLE CLASS

 

Who's name calling? I'm talking about socialist not in the stupid Sean Hannity way, but the normal political way. Socialism, or the policy of the government serving the greater good of the people. It is also a social phenomenon. People *wanting* to serve their fellow man; "movin' on up" is not the first order of the day in a socialist society as it is in an entrepreneurial society. People are content with what they have and wish their fellow man gets what he has so everyone can have some prosperity (Sweden) rather than *I* get all the prosperity (USA, USA, USA). By definition, both systems have a strong middle class. Its just the entrepreneurial system has way more rich folks and a bit more poor folks.

 

For the record, I think Representational Democracy only works on paper and for relatively small groups of people. The system doesn't work in a country of 300 million; too many interests to serve!. Parliamentary systems work *better* that way but it still isn't very good.

 

BTW, who ever said "Republican Democracy"? It wasn't me. Keep reading what you want to read bub.

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