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East New York

MTA Bus Operations: Fleet & Depots

East New York

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Message added by East New York

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Just now, paulrivera said:

Speaking of Gun Hill, is it safe to assume their next batch of LFSA’s are coming in soon, now that there are (at least) a handful of older SBS ártica being unwrapped?

5531-5534 are already in service. Took some shots of 5533-5534 last Friday.

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3 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

bump some 2011 LFS to Quill to retire RTS.

Quill is getting XD40s to retire the RTS

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3 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

With the new LFS delivery assignments...

I still don't understand what's the priority of giving Gun Hill and Kingsbridge the bulk, when they'll still have NGs left over...

Why not just give Castleton (90) and move the 7000s to other depots? Then S.Is local fleet will be all LFS. 

Give QV (84) would bump NGs to wherever needs, and bump some 2011 LFS to Quill to retire RTS. 

YUK (77) 

CAS (90) would bump 7000s to wherever needed. 

 

3 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

I thought the main goal with all these deliveries was to uniform the depots so they don't need as many different parts. 

As long as Yukon remains a training depot for the 10-day, then they will always have NGs. This will probably be the opportunity to move the 4000s out and put the 4200s on the locals. Plus a lot of the 4200s just came from overhaul or are about to be overhauled. Same thing with Jamaica. Since training is done for the LFS, RTS (and now the XDs), they will hold onto those models for the time being. Aside from that, SI does need more buses to make service during the rush hour, so all three depots can use extra buses.

3 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

 

It still is the case for the most part. Jamaica got their XD40s more to replace the RTS faster. It can be possible that the XD40s and the oddball NGs would also help out as when JA is complete with reconstruction it can take a handful of CS's fleet when the depot closes for the LGA airtrain.

See above ^

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6 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

5531-5534 are already in service. Took some shots of 5533-5534 last Friday.

How do I have 3 Gun Hill routes within walking distance and I haven't seen them yet? 😄

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5 hours ago, paulrivera said:

How do I have 3 Gun Hill routes within walking distance and I haven't seen them yet? 😄

They're all SBS buses, so they will only be on the 12 and 41.

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18 hours ago, S78 via Hylan said:

I brought this here to avoid going off-topic in the moves/transfers thread.

It makes sense to give YU all 77 LFS as their oldest local buses are nearly ten years old with a ton of mileage, meanwhile CA and CH have younger fleets. 

I agree. I still didn't understand the logic of giving Castleton and Charleston new buses, given their young fleet. They should maintain their current fleet first before even saying anything about getting new buses.

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1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I agree. I still didn't understand the logic of giving Castleton and Charleston new buses, given their young fleet. They should maintain their current fleet first before even saying anything about getting new buses.

We do but we put the most mileage on our buses out of everywhere else AND we have to bite into our spare factor to make service. So grabbing those 15 buses a piece would have solved that, without having to do all the bouncing around of buses. 

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20 minutes ago, SevenEleven said:

We do but we put the most mileage on our buses out of everywhere else AND we have to bite into our spare factor to make service. So grabbing those 15 buses a piece would have solved that, without having to do all the bouncing around of buses. 

Wouldn’t a more logical solution for the mileage issues and spare factor problems be to give about 10 of those new LFS buses to Castleton and give the buses they grabbed from Yukon (8252-8259) back to them, so they can have great extra LFS buses be new buses. That way they can have the original 68 2015-16 LFS buses they were allotted (8184-8251), plus the 10 they would get, for a total of 78 buses. Yukon would get back 8252-8259 from Charleston and Castleton for a total of 66 old LFS buses and get 67 new ones for a total of 133 new ones. More specifically:

8184-8251, 10 new LFS (78) Castleton 

8252-8317, 67 new LFS (133) Yukon (this Depot would be 100% LFS for the non-express Fleet. The NGs would go to the mainland to retire older buses).

If 8126 is repaired and returned to service from its accident, like what happened with NG 4619 after its accident, it would be returned to Charleston to make 64 needed buses again:

8120-8183 (64) Charleston 

 

With these assignments, there would be better service, especially at Yukon, since local service will no longer be covered with Hybrids with loads of mileage, routes crossing the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge and the newly-raised Bayonne Bridge would be served by diesel buses, which could be better for these operations than Series-hybrids. Castleton would get an extra few buses for additional service.

 

Also, any plans for installing bike racks on the new scheme buses for routes crossing bridges with no pedestrian walkways?

Edited by JeremiahC99

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9 hours ago, SevenEleven said:

They're all SBS buses, so they will only be on the 12 and 41.

The 12's around the corner from me actually. Who knows, maybe I've passed by them and haven't noticed them (they blend in with the other new artics), but for sure I haven't ridden on one of the new buses yet.

Edited by paulrivera

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23 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

I thought the main goal with all these deliveries was to uniform the depots so they don't need as many different parts. 

It is, however about 2 years ago now when I said the fleets would become uniform in the future! it was inevitable that New Flyer begin to spill into other depots one day. Once the orders started going 60/40 NFI/Nova it was only a matter of time. 

23 hours ago, Cait Sith said:

If that were the case, Jamaica wouldn't be getting XD40s.

Remember the post I referenced (from above) before all this fleet consolidation? This works because there’s no problem with a depot like JA having multiple bus types because of the location and the fact that all of their buses can be maintained at East New York or ZA (in the case of the LFS). They don’t even do major maintenance on the NG’s anymore at all. They go to EN along with all South Queens Bus Company Depot NG’s as well now. They can also be maintained at GA. On top of that the new JA will have a much larger store room. The RTS’ are on their way out the door, and this is only the beginning. We will see more depots with “dual fleets” in the future. However they will be based logistically. 

This also still works with the borough uniformity. Remember when I said Queens would be the acception because of Bus Company alone. Along with Stengel there are already a lot of Xcelsiors in Queens. Once the New JA opens I see them having up to 3 types of buses, which will likely include hybrids. 

23 hours ago, S78 via Hylan said:

Some garages are doing that, but there’s nothing wrong with a depot having two separate fleets as opposed to say, four or more like UP had a one point.

All of them are doing it with the exception of CFM’s for the most part. It’s based on the side of the depot store rooms, and overall fleet location and logistics.

23 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

It still is the case for the most part. Jamaica got their XD40s more to replace the RTS faster. It can be possible that the XD40s and the oddball NGs would also help out as when JA is complete with reconstruction it can take a handful of CS's fleet when the depot closes for the LGA airtrain.

And to replace the NG’s as well.

22 hours ago, FLX9304 said:

You will still need a third TA Depot in Queens. You cannnot give up the TA routes to the nearby CP. 

Buses can however be housed at CP or another Bus Co. depot if need be. We are going to be tight on space until the new Jamaica opens. Some buses however will remain at Jamaica as I am being told the depot will not shut down all at once. It will be phased out for the new one as not to disrupt operations in the way we have in the past with a complete closure. The new depot will begin construction while the old one is still there. I will get more into that soon.

22 hours ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

There's gonna be an overlap since there's more Xcelsiors in the local fleet than Novas, but I'm saying with this order it would've made sense parts wise to take care of S.I, and shut them up for a while local fleet wise. 

But as Btrain said, other depots are more familiar with the NGs even though the 7000s are basically the same just diesel versions. 

There’s actually quite a few differences. There is overall commonality, but underneath they are fundamentally different. The E10’s (commonly known as 3G/4G’s) share some body panels, lights, and subsystems with the NG’s but that’s about all. They have different engines, powertrains, exhaust systems, windows, doors, different sized rear doors, different HVAC’s, different brakes, and totally different maintenance programs. 

These buses can essentially go anywhere. Since SI is a high mileage depot, I see them being transferred out at some point anyway. The could however die there. We will just have to wait and see and there are no current plans to move them that I know of.

2 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Wouldn’t a more logical solution for the mileage issues and spare factor problems be to give about 10 of those new LFS buses to Castleton and give the buses they grabbed from Yukon (8252-8259) back to them, so they can have great extra LFS buses be new buses. That way they can have the original 68 2015-16 LFS buses they were allotted (8184-8251), plus the 10 they would get, for a total of 78 buses. Yukon would get back 8252-8259 from Charleston and Castleton for a total of 66 old LFS buses and get 67 new ones for a total of 133 new ones. More specifically:

8184-8251, 10 new LFS (78) Castleton 

8252-8317, 67 new LFS (133) Yukon (this Depot would be 100% LFS for the non-express Fleet. The NGs would go to the mainland to retire older buses).

If 8126 is repaired and returned to service from its accident, like what happened with NG 4619 after its accident, it would be returned to Charleston to make 64 needed buses again:

8120-8183 (64) Charleston 

 

With these assignments, there would be better service, especially at Yukon, since local service will no longer be covered with Hybrids with loads of mileage, routes crossing the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge and the newly-raised Bayonne Bridge would be served by diesel buses, which could be better for these operations than Series-hybrids. Castleton would get an extra few buses for additional service.

 

Also, any plans for installing bike racks on the new scheme buses for routes crossing bridges with no pedestrian walkways?

No, there’s a lot more to it that what it looks like from the surface. Just let MTA handle all that. The could decide to just swap NG’s with some on the mainland, or just get rid of them all together. Last plans I checked they were supposed to get rid of them the NG’s on the island all together. When the first assignments came down it didn’t make any sense to me because it didn’t really allow for displacement of the NG from the depot, only from the S79. 

With these new assignments it makes much more sense and follows what I was told about the island being hybrid free. I’m being told the next wave for SI will be electric buses, and they won’t be getting any of the new hybrids either.

This revised actually is now nearly identical to what I said it should be. I however had Jamaica in the mix as well. But it makes sense for them to get XD’s right now. 

Lets not forget we will also have the last 96 XD40’s off the current order to be assigned to Depots after L train. This time next year we have hybrids beginning to come in, and if BAE doesn’t get it together the writing is on the wall. After L shuttle there will be quite a few moves, swaps, and retirements.

Lets just let it play out and talk about it all as we get the information or as it happens. 

Edited by East New York
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Hey @East New York, with the next wave of SI buses possibly being electric, could that decision have been made because SI is a high mileage depot and thus could make the most out of electric operations? 

Not to mention the environmental factors of course. While I am mostly ignorant to how the Proterra program is going, part of me feels like we may not be utilizing them to their full potential.

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On 10/23/2018 at 12:04 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

 

With these assignments, there would be better service, especially at Yukon, since local service will no longer be covered with Hybrids with loads of mileage, routes crossing the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge and the newly-raised Bayonne Bridge would be served by diesel buses, which could be better for these operations than Series-hybrids. Castleton would get an extra few buses for additional service.

 

Also, any plans for installing bike racks on the new scheme buses for routes crossing bridges with no pedestrian walkways?

Not sure if I'd say loads of mileage I think there around 275-300k which isn't much when the 05s and RTS go to 500+

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23 hours ago, LTA1992 said:

Hey @East New York, with the next wave of SI buses possibly being electric, could that decision have been made because SI is a high mileage depot and thus could make the most out of electric operations? 

Not to mention the environmental factors of course. While I am mostly ignorant to how the Proterra program is going, part of me feels like we may not be utilizing them to their full potential.

Staten Island for obvious reason along with Queens will benefit the most from the electric buses.

However, not to say SI won't get hybrids in the future, even though it is highly unlikely. If we go with the Allison Parallel system they will be more fuel efficient than the BAE, and will not be as expensive to maintain. The current hybrids that we have were designed for Manhattan and Brooklyn only for the most part. The higher speeds and longer distances are not good for that type of system, and have thus costed the MTA much more than expected, or planned.

This was motivation behind the plans to convert the entire Bus Company fleet to straight diesel, which was later scrapped because it was found not to be cost effective at all.

23 hours ago, trife86 said:

Not sure if I'd say loads of mileage I think there around 275-300k which isn't much when the 05s and RTS go to 500+

You can't really compare the two seeing as the NG's still have a lot of life left in them. The V's have been retired for a while now, and the RTS doesn't even count. That's the longest lasting bus ever built to date. There are plenty out there with even more mileage than that. I have about 460K on mine and it's a 2000 model. 

SI division is high mileage so naturally most of the buses out there have slightly higher mileage numbers. The newest of the RTS' are 19 years old now, whereas the oldest are approaching 22 years old. We have hybrids retiring alongside the RTS now. We will never have any NG's long enough to even be able to compare them to the likes of an 05 or RTS, but if you consider the other depots, the mileage is quite high on them. 

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50 minutes ago, East New York said:

Staten Island for obvious reason along with Queens will benefit the most from the electric buses.

However, not to say SI won't get hybrids in the future, even though it is highly unlikely. If we go with the Allison Parallel system they will be more fuel efficient than the BAE, and will not be as expensive to maintain. The current hybrids that we have were designed for Manhattan and Brooklyn only for the most part. The higher speeds and longer distances are not good for that type of system, and have thus costed the MTA much more than expected, or planned.

This was motivation behind the plans to convert the entire Bus Company fleet to straight diesel, which was later scrapped because it was found not to be cost effective at all.

You can't really compare the two seeing as the NG's still have a lot of life left in them. The V's have been retired for a while now, and the RTS doesn't even count. That's the longest lasting bus ever built to date. There are plenty out there with even more mileage than that. I have about 460K on mine and it's a 2000 model. 

SI division is high mileage so naturally most of the buses out there have slightly higher mileage numbers. The newest of the RTS' are 19 years old now, whereas the oldest are approaching 22 years old. We have hybrids retiring alongside the RTS now. We will never have any NG's long enough to even be able to compare them to the likes of an 05 or RTS, but if you consider the other depots, the mileage is quite high on them. 

As I only know how to drive them, I wonder why they would be retiring the hybrids earlier, I know retrofits to straight diesels were considered but what about just disabling the hybrid system together and run only on the current diesel engine.

I have driven a few with dying HEV systems and while they won't have a good top speed they are still good for city use under say 30mph.

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19 minutes ago, trife86 said:

As I only know how to drive them, I wonder why they would be retiring the hybrids earlier, I know retrofits to straight diesels were considered but what about just disabling the hybrid system together and run only on the current diesel engine.

I have driven a few with dying HEV systems and while they won't have a good top speed they are still good for city use under say 30mph.

Because the transmission connected to the engine is a hybrid system. If you disable the hybrid transmission system, the bus would have no other way to shift gears and move. That hybrid system doesn't have gear shift speeds like regular diesel buses. You would have to take the hybrid transmission system out, and put a diesel transmission system in order to run on the diesel engine. That's the part that's not cost worthy. 

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1 hour ago, trife86 said:

As I only know how to drive them, I wonder why they would be retiring the hybrids earlier, I know retrofits to straight diesels were considered but what about just disabling the hybrid system together and run only on the current diesel engine.

I have driven a few with dying HEV systems and while they won't have a good top speed they are still good for city use under say 30mph.

Well I said the main reason is for retirement lol. Nothing last longer than an RTS. These other buses would have to be rebuilt to last as long. The OG hybrids are already at retirement age. It just seems like yesterday that they were flooding the city brand new. Hybrids cost more to maintain than straight diesels, and at this time the only justification for them is they are 'SLIGHTLY" cleaner than a brand new straight diesel. 

Even though I've driven almost every American bus type ever built, I am also a Maintenance Tech, and own buses so I look at things from a few different sides. 

Operating in diesel only mode would eventually kill the computer, and drive maintenance costs up significantly. Not only that, but if you operate in that mode for too long and consistently you will start to develop other problems. That engine is not made to operate on its own power at all times. It is a Cummins ISB. The Cummins straight diesel buses, including the bus company repower are more powerful ISL's. You will start burning up oil, and blowing turbochargers. The electronic engine controls on that bus wouldn't know what to do. An RTS or any other Detroit (DDEC) system for example will shut the bus down at first detection of a problem so as not to worsen a situation.

*Fun fact of the day. Notice how when many buses break down they make take a while to get back on the road and out of maintenance. An RTS can break down this afternoon and be on the run line tomorrow. Reason being is the electronic controls will shut the bus down at the first sign of a problem, whereas most others you can run into the ground and not even know something is wrong until the bus completely breaks down, starts blowing turbo chargers and sometime at worse catch fire. When a DDEC bus breaks down or retires, it can usually be driven back to the depot or to scrap. If these other buses break down, we usually see them on tow trucks. How often do you see an RTS or a D60 on a tow truck?? How often do we see everything else on a tow truck? Which ones are newer???

Hybrid buses do not have transmissions like diesel buses do. This is one of the reasons the buses will likely top out at 30, and won't have much power at all because it's overall purpose is to supply power to the generator and motor(s). An automatic transmission can shift gears, whereas most hybrid systems do not have gears at all other than D and R, and spool up and down similar to jet engines.

Let's take an automatic trans with LBSS for example. Allison Load Based Shift Scheduling. The transmission shifts based on the weight and weight distribution of the bus to further save fuel.

Hybrid systems usually just have 1 speed and 2 gears, with generators and motors connected to the wheels and engines. Now something that is interesting that I can't wait to check out is a brand new derivative of the hybrid system we have now.  All of our hybrid (except 9500-9509) have the original BAE Systems hybrid. A new version (ER-Series) allows the bus to be operated in all-electric mode at times and diesel-electric hybrid mode at others. We have the new Allison on 9500-9504 which is my favorite, and will work best for NYC, and the BAE E-Series on 9505-9509. I would have preferred we tried out the BAE ER series if the goal is to start moving towards electric. IDK what these people are thinking these days.

The BAE standard E-series is a Series Hybrid system, and the Allison is a Parallel System which works great for stop-and-go as well as high speed routes. The BAE is just an upgraded version of what we have now and is only optimal in Manhattan or at rush hours when they will only be 100% efficient in stop-and-go conditions. Love the new BAE, but it's just not as efficient as the Allison and if this comes down to a numbers game, 9505-9509 might not pass this evaluation. 9505 is back in the shop at Zerega too. The prelim report says brakes locked up. I however think the traction motor locked up. We shall see. That bus was supposed to be in service months ago. The others can't come until that pilot goes into service for at least a few days. 

(I will get into the difference between series and parallel a bit later)

1 hour ago, XcelsiorBoii4888 said:

Because the transmission connected to the engine is a hybrid system. If you disable the hybrid transmission system, the bus would have no other way to shift gears and move. That hybrid system doesn't have gear shift speeds like regular diesel buses. You would have to take the hybrid transmission system out, and put a diesel transmission system in order to run on the diesel engine. That's the part that's not cost worthy. 

No, that's incorrect. lol. The hybrids don't even have transmissions, and they don't shift gears. See my notes above. It has a generator, controller box, and an electric motor attached to the wheels. The engine drives all of that. As  @trife86 just said it can be driven, however I explained the details and consequences when behind driving in diesel mode. 

 

Edited by East New York
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40 minutes ago, East New York said:

Well I said the main reason is for retirement lol. Nothing last longer than an RTS. These other buses would have to be rebuilt to last as long. The OG hybrids are already at retirement age. It just seems like yesterday that they were flooding the city brand new. Hybrids cost more to maintain than straight diesels, and at this time the only justification for them is they are 'SLIGHTLY" cleaner than a brand new straight diesel. 

Even though I've driven almost every American bus type ever built, I am also a Maintenance Tech, and own buses so I look at things from a few different sides. 

Operating in diesel only mode would eventually kill the computer, and drive maintenance costs up significantly. Not only that, but if you operate in that mode for too long and consistently you will start to develop other problems. That engine is not made to operate on its own power at all times. It is a Cummins ISB. The Cummins straight diesel buses, including the bus company repower are more powerful ISL's. You will start burning up oil, and blowing turbochargers. The electronic engine controls on that bus wouldn't know what to do. An RTS or any other Detroit (DDEC) system for example will shut the bus down at first detection of a problem so as not to worsen a situation.

*Fun fact of the day. Notice how when many buses break down they make take a while to get back on the road and out of maintenance. An RTS can break down this afternoon and be on the run line tomorrow. Reason being is the electronic controls will shut the bus down at the first sign of a problem, whereas most others you can run into the ground and not even know something is wrong until the bus completely breaks down, starts blowing turbo chargers and sometime at worse catch fire. When a DDEC bus breaks down or retires, it can usually be driven back to the depot or to scrap. If these other buses break down, we usually see them on tow trucks. How often do you see an RTS or a D60 on a tow truck?? How often do we see everything else on a tow truck? Which ones are newer???

 

 

That part is a 2 edged sword, many times I've called in busses on the road saying I have a yellow check engine or yellow check HEV, and they will just say ok continue call us back if it turns red.

 

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2 hours ago, East New York said:

Operating in diesel only mode would eventually kill the computer, and drive maintenance costs up significantly. Not only that, but if you operate in that mode for too long and consistently you will start to develop other problems. That engine is not made to operate on its own power at all times. It is a Cummins ISB. The Cummins straight diesel buses, including the bus company repower are more powerful ISL's. You will start burning up oil, and blowing turbochargers. The electronic engine controls on that bus wouldn't know what to do. An RTS or any other Detroit (DDEC) system for example will shut the bus down at first detection of a problem so as not to worsen a situation.

There is no diesel only mode on our hybrids. The diesel engine only runs the ACTM (hybrid generator) and other accessories. The "diesel only mode" you guys are referring to may be the PCS emergency override switch.

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33 minutes ago, Blitz said:

There is no diesel only mode on our hybrids. The diesel engine only runs the ACTM (hybrid generator) and other accessories. The "diesel only mode" you guys are referring to may be the PCS emergency override switch.

Yes, the PCS overrides the computer and shuts off the hybrid generator.

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Will the mta look into fuel felled energy buses? 

Since North America is looking into cleaner tech. 

Edited by Brillant93
For reasons

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6 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

Will the mta look into fuel felled energy buses? 

Since North America is looking into cleaner tech. 

Fuel felled? I could google it, but that's no fun. Can you explain this to me? 

Preferably in your own words lol

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He might mean "fuel celled". I think that is in the works for a test.

A whole list of the tests coming up had been put up here somewhere.

Edited by Eric B

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7572...

OK, here is the story with this bus, there was a spec change, but its not the destination sign as everyone was thinking. 7572 is the beginning of the order where the engine was changed from the Cummins ISL9 to the Cummins L9. That is the only difference between that bus and the others. 7572 and up will be powered with a Cummins L9 engine. That is all.

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13 minutes ago, The Real said:

7572...

OK, here is the story with this bus, there was a spec change, but its not the destination sign as everyone was thinking. 7572 is the beginning of the order where the engine was changed from the Cummins ISL9 to the Cummins L9. That is the only difference between that bus and the others. 7572 and up will be powered with a Cummins L9 engine. That is all.

I checked the TTMG Fleet Roster page and for the 2018-19 XD40s 7484-7850 it said all the buses in that order have the Cummins EPA 17 L9 engine, including 7615-7684, and buses delivered with the standard blue scheme. Yet you say that buses delivered after 7572 will have the L9 engine. Is there an error in the TTMG Fleet roster that needs to be changed?

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1 hour ago, JeremiahC99 said:

I checked the TTMG Fleet Roster page and for the 2018-19 XD40s 7484-7850 it said all the buses in that order have the Cummins EPA 17 L9 engine, including 7615-7684, and buses delivered with the standard blue scheme. Yet you say that buses delivered after 7572 will have the L9 engine. Is there an error in the TTMG Fleet roster that needs to be changed?

Spec change. With the MTA, no information is permanent, even when it's rock solid like the TTMG sources.

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