MTA Bus Operations: Fleet & Depots

[Future ENY OP]

On 1/21/2019 at 11:59 PM, East New York said:

2019 Annual Fleet Review and Major Updates. January 21, 2019

******

Contract #40666 for the manufacture furnish and delivery of 275 Diesel-Electric Hybrid Buses 9510-9784.

MTA will seek board approval for an RFP Authorizing competitive bidding to be impractical, and inappropriate for this upcoming award.

At this time there are 2 qualified manufactures to build hybrid buses for MTA. New Flyer, and NovaBus. To date, MTA deemed the delivery schedule of the Nova offering was not favorable, and the price of each Nova was significantly higher than that of New Flyer, and subsequently awarded them an order for 10 hybrid pilot buses. 

It is now time for MTA to plan the next (outside of MTA Bus company) what may very well be the last hybrid order ever. 

Because this will not be the standard competitive contract, MTA would like to split the award from what I am being told. They will in fact state in the contract that are open to a split and it wil boil down to evaluation criteria, and the Best And Final offer. MTA could also further split this award between hybrid system manufacturing firms, Allison and BAE.

Final design selection will begin immediately when everyone goes back to work this week. Nova could possibly get up to 110 buses out of this order. Exactly 1 year from now MTA plans to award this contract, with delivery to begin Q3 2020.

As of right now, potential deployment for these buses are as follows:

East New York, Flatbush, Fresh Pond, Grand Avenue, Gun Hill, Jamaica, Kingsbridge, Quill, Manhattanville, Hale, Tuskegee, Queens Village, and Ulmer Park Depots. 

*******

1 hour ago, Brillant93 said:

What do you mean? A depot that already houses hybrid buses can get XDE40s. FP, FB, and others already hybrids. I’m not sure if Ulmer Park can because it’s all diesel fuel from there. 

 

Um according to the top statement. XDE40’s will go to Ulmer Park. Ulmer has had hybrids before. 

[Brillant93]

6 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

Um according to the top statement. XDE40’s will go to Ulmer Park. Ulmer has had hybrids before. 

Okay. Thank you for the clarification. Ulmer park had hybrids? I would have never known lol. 

[Ultimategamer12c]

2 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

What do you mean? A depot that already houses hybrid buses can get XDE40s. FP, FB, and others already hybrids. I’m not sure if Ulmer Park can because it’s all diesel fuel from there. 

Oh Aii thanks lol

[SevenEleven]

3 hours ago, Ultimategamer12c said:

Ik this is a dumb Question but can another other Depos besides [MTA BUS Co] can They use XDE40s  like FP,FB Ulmer and so on?

After stocking parts at the depot and training maintenance, sure they can. 

[Future ENY OP]

2 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

Okay. Thank you for the clarification. Ulmer park had hybrids? I would have never known lol. 

The 3G hybrids started at Ulmer Park, although they only had 30 of them. Than 2 other depots had the 3G’s. 

[limitednyc]

24 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

The 3G hybrids started at Ulmer Park, although they only had 30 of them. Than 2 other depots had the 3G’s. 

yes qv and ca.

[trainfan22]

27 minutes ago, Future ENY OP said:

The 3G hybrids started at Ulmer Park, although they only had 30 of them. Than 2 other depots had the 3G’s. 

The 3G are diesel, not hybrid.

[Cait Sith]

4 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

Okay. Thank you for the clarification. Ulmer park had hybrids? I would have never known lol. 

For a very, very, very short time they did during the NG order, that's when they rejected the buses.

[Brillant93]

Just now, Cait Sith said:

For a very, very, very short time they did during the NG order, that's when they rejected the buses.

What was the reason for them rejecting it? 

[Future ENY OP]

1 hour ago, trainfan22 said:

The 3G are diesel, not hybrid.

Thanks for the correction @trainfan22  I’ve thought those buses were hybrid. 

[King Transit]

6 hours ago, Brillant93 said:

Okay. Thank you for the clarification. Ulmer park had hybrids? I would have never known lol. 

Remember the Orion VII 3Gs from 2011 and once they loaned one NG ?

[East New York]

On 2/4/2019 at 7:49 PM, Brillant93 said:

a shame the MTA scrap plans to buy XDE60s. The MTA should focus on being more alternative fuel than just going all electric. In my opinion. 

No they shouldn’t. NY MTA and LAMTA, the the 1st and now 3rd largest agency (NJT passed LA for the first time ever this year) are slated for all electric fleets. The technology is mature enough to begin full implementation within the next 10-15 years. 

On 2/4/2019 at 7:55 PM, King Transit said:

This is why I'm creating another fantasy roster vid for YT to show the MTA solution to still give the XDE60s. I don't play about those buses, they are important. Grand Ave is being accommodated for artics, so they should receive these XDE60s for LCL or +SBS.

Just let it go....... 

On 2/4/2019 at 7:59 PM, Brillant93 said:

Grand avenue is artic ready but no route is being planned for implementation right now. I think the MTA should try and give XDE60s a chance but it looks like the XE60s will be a go since well be seeing our first ones the end of the year for an extensive testing trial. 

MTA does not agree with you so it’s not happening.

 

On 2/4/2019 at 9:49 PM, trainfan22 said:

Speaking of XDE60s... I rode the Bee Line units for the first time today and liked it, felt weird riding an hybrid artic with that golf cart like acceleration that hybrid buses have.

 

 

I'm very bummed the MTA will not be buying any XDE60s, would have been fun to ride them up the hills on the BX9...

It’s not happening guys. So let’s just let it go. MTA’s decision was between the XDE60 and the XE60. The decided on the XE60 and already awarded the contract. 

Even if they did go with the hybrids they were still going to Quill. Not the Bronx for anything other than duct cycle testing right now. 

No need to make a fantasy thread on it either. 

On 2/4/2019 at 10:30 PM, MHV184 said:

I did read up on it just didn't understand very well. So does that mean the XE60s will go around in each depot and do some heavy duty testing?

Yes 

On 2/4/2019 at 10:59 PM, Melbx15 said:

Can a CNG bus be electric  like the ones a quill and grand ?

New Flyer offered CNG-electric hybrids for a moment but no one purchased them. The new Cummins Gas Engine has a Near zero pollution rate so they aren’t really needed. 

On 2/4/2019 at 11:22 PM, Melbx15 said:

So all the Depots will be all electric by 2040 except west farms and Jackie Gleason 

All depots means all depots. 

On 2/5/2019 at 7:47 AM, Ultimategamer12c said:

Ik this is a dumb Question but can another other Depos besides [MTA BUS Co] can They use XDE40s  like FP,FB Ulmer and so on?

Anyone can use them. They are Diesel-Electric hybrids.... Whick means they are fueled with diesel fuel.

On 2/5/2019 at 8:02 AM, Brillant93 said:

What do you mean? A depot that already houses hybrid buses can get XDE40s. FP, FB, and others already hybrids. I’m not sure if Ulmer Park can because it’s all diesel fuel from there. 

Just explained above.

On 2/5/2019 at 11:55 AM, Future ENY OP said:

The 3G hybrids started at Ulmer Park, although they only had 30 of them. Than 2 other depots had the 3G’s. 

The 3G’s are NOT hybrids bro. They are diesel. 

On 2/5/2019 at 1:50 PM, Brillant93 said:

What was the reason for them rejecting it? 

They didn’t like them. Same as East New York. 

On 2/5/2019 at 4:02 PM, King Transit said:

Remember the Orion VII 3Gs from 2011 and once they loaned one NG ?

Again as mentioned above the 3G’s ARE NOT hybrids. 

Edited February 7, 2019 by East New York

[trife86]

11 minutes ago, Chris Alleyne said:

 

My question for this is, why exactly does the MTA want to go all electric? The all diesel-electric hybrid idea didn't exactly go the way the MTA had hoped which is why we haven't had any new hybrids from 2010 until recently. What makes them so sure that fully electrified buses will be able to work in all NYC area environments. As of right now, Staten Island has yet to test out an all electric bus. How will they do there? Personally, I'd think it'd be wise to continue to buy new clean diesel and Comprised Natural Gas (and maybe even LNG powered buses too) buses for the foreseeable future. I mean, don't they want more XN60s for bus company if College Point depot ever end up going artic?  That way, if the technology fails, they can atleast have something else to fall back on. Weren't they also going to test hydrogen powered buses too next decade (2020s)? Was that plan scrapped? 

Hydrogen is interesting to follow, I did some research into the Honda Clarity Sedan they had a rocky enough start in California.

[East New York]

15 minutes ago, Chris Alleyne said:

 

My question for this is, why exactly does the MTA want to go all electric? The all diesel-electric hybrid idea didn't exactly go the way the MTA had hoped which is why we haven't had any new hybrids from 2010 until recently. What makes them so sure that fully electrified buses will be able to work in all NYC area environments. As of right now, Staten Island has yet to test out an all electric bus. How will they do there? Personally, I'd think it'd be wise to continue to buy new clean diesel and Comprised Natural Gas (and maybe even LNG powered buses too) buses for the foreseeable future. I mean, don't they want more XN60s for bus company if College Point depot ever end up going artic?  That way, if the technology fails, they can atleast have something else to fall back on. Weren't they also going to test hydrogen powered buses too next decade (2020s)? Was that plan scrapped? 

All electric is less expensive in the long run. Buses require much less maintenance. As of right now no one has tested electric buses other than Quill in Manhattan and Grand in Queens (Brooklyn Division). As of right now the buses have been testing for quite sometime and the New Flyer models have received favorable results. There’s no reason it won’t work here as it’s already been proven successful. The only major issue with the Preterras have been brakes not passing MTA’s testing. 

Mad far as hybrids go, I mentioned over a decade ago that it was a mistake u less they were Allison powered because of wide range our duty cycles. This proved to be corrects and they had to be tuned to keep up with NYC demands. We have good hybrids, they just weren’t made for high speeds. Any new tech or bus is going to have teaching problems. When the RTS was introduced it failed and had major rear door problems and a few other minor issues. 

At one time MTA was considering the testing of hydrogen-electric hybrid, (XHE40 or XHE60) buses, however they made the decision to go diesel-hybrid, then all-electric across the board. 

College Point has plans for articulated operations in the future with routes such as the Q25. But if and when this happens it will likely be XE60’s. 

MTA is no longer interested in long term investments in any buses other than all-electric. It is likely that last diesel and CNG orders have been awarded. MTA Bus will have the next standard procurement for 25 buses with options for an additional 16 options. This is ok the books as a diesel award but will likely change to hybrid and follow the 275 additional buses we have coming starting next year. It could also be converted to electric as well to support the conversion. 

This is the wave of the future. If the tech hasn’t failed by now, I don’t see it happening in the future. Our leased test buses have been performing quite well, and our first production order is only for 15 buses, so it’s not like the MTA is jumping out the window like they did with hybrids. Then next is 45 standard buses. If they were to somehow fail, MTA has cushion to move to another platform or go back to hybrids.

Please note this includes express buses and I’m also getting word that MTA may also opt for a few test buses in the upcoming order which is pending for later this year.  NFI is aggressively working on the new D45 CRTe (high-floor) and CRTe LE (low-entry) all-electric versions with tech based off the Xcelsior Charge. 

Effectively know as the D45 CRTe Charge and D45 CRTe LE Charge, these will be plug-in types and will not have en-route charging capabilities to my understanding. MCI (NFI) is currently in the test phase and want the buses (including the J4500e)  to be commercially available next year in 2020. The J4500e prototype is complete and as many may know, the new D45 is essentially a classic D merged with a J. All my sources are telling me that as soon as the first bus is ready, and Altoona certified, it will make its way to NYC. 

 

[Coney Island Av]

Are the following D60HFs still around/trackable?

115 (5532), 119 (5574), 122 (5578), 123 (5601), 129 (5548), 131 (5567)

I constantly check transit tracker daily and the ones mentioned above I haven't seen on tracker as of late. I want to go and chase them given we've recently lost a handful of renumbered units as of late. 

[GojiMet86]

No, I do the same thing. 136 and 137 seem to have never made it into service as 136 and 137.

[Orion6025]

2 hours ago, Coney Island Av said:

115 (5532), 119 (5574), 122 (5578), 123 (5601), 129 (5548), 131 (5567)

115, 119, 123 don't track. 119 has one but it doesn't work, 115 used to track as 5532, I don't know if it still does that.

[Eric B]

11 hours ago, East New York said:

All electric is less expensive in the long run. Buses require much less maintenance. As of right now no one has tested electric buses other than Quill in Manhattan and Grand in Queens (Brooklyn Division). As of right now the buses have been testing for quite sometime and the New Flyer models have received favorable results. There’s no reason it won’t work here as it’s already been proven successful. The only major issue with the Preterras have been brakes not passing MTA’s testing. 

Mad far as hybrids go, I mentioned over a decade ago that it was a mistake u less they were Allison powered because of wide range our duty cycles. This proved to be corrects and they had to be tuned to keep up with NYC demands. We have good hybrids, they just weren’t made for high speeds. Any new tech or bus is going to have teaching problems. When the RTS was introduced it failed and had major rear door problems and a few other minor issues. 

At one time MTA was considering the testing of hydrogen-electric hybrid, (XHE40 or XHE60) buses, however they made the decision to go diesel-hybrid, then all-electric across the board. 

College Point has plans for articulated operations in the future with routes such as the Q25. But if and when this happens it will likely be XE60’s. 

MTA is no longer interested in long term investments in any buses other than all-electric. It is likely that last diesel and CNG orders have been awarded. MTA Bus will have the next standard procurement for 25 buses with options for an additional 16 options. This is ok the books as a diesel award but will likely change to hybrid and follow the 275 additional buses we have coming starting next year. It could also be converted to electric as well to support the conversion. 

This is the wave of the future. If the tech hasn’t failed by now, I don’t see it happening in the future. Our leased test buses have been performing quite well, and our first production order is only for 15 buses, so it’s not like the MTA is jumping out the window like they did with hybrids. Then next is 45 standard buses. If they were to somehow fail, MTA has cushion to move to another platform or go back to hybrids.

Please note this includes express buses and I’m also getting word that MTA may also opt for a few test buses in the upcoming order which is pending for later this year.  NFI is aggressively working on the new D45 CRTe (high-floor) and CRTe LE (low-entry) all-electric versions with tech based off the Xcelsior Charge. 

Effectively know as the D45 CRTe Charge and D45 CRTe LE Charge, these will be plug-in types and will not have en-route charging capabilities to my understanding. MCI (NFI) is currently in the test phase and want the buses (including the J4500e)  to be commercially available next year in 2020. The J4500e prototype is complete and as many may know, the new D45 is essentially a classic D merged with a J. All my sources are telling me that as soon as the first bus is ready, and Altoona certified, it will make its way to NYC. 

 

You say “plug-in”; that means tmis is still a hybrid? (I thought you were describing all-electrics).

 

NFI is Flyer, right? They own MCI now?

[East New York]

On 2/4/2019 at 7:46 PM, King Transit said:

I also rode #9500 this evening on the B47 too with my mother on our way to Radiology on Mill Ave/Ralph Ave. And my most favorite thing of this bus along with the others equipped with a different transmission, was the engine automatically shut off, so that I cannot be waken up with the vibration at a stop light/bus stop. This was my very first time riding XDE40s in my young hood, before I always record 2-3 units in action along that route(first time was late August). The XDE40/60s are best tied with the XN60s(said by an Xcelsior fan).

Please note that hybrids do not have transmissions. 

On 2/4/2019 at 8:08 PM, King Transit said:

I'm hoping for XE60s to come Quill. I want to see and watch how that plays out.

What exactly are you hoping for? The assignments are already posted lol.

On 2/4/2019 at 9:54 PM, MHV184 said:

Quick question. Are the XE60s going to be tested at every depot or just Quill.

They are going to quill and a couple will test out of “select depots” in all 5 boroughs. It’s mentions in the fleet review.

23 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

Do you think that eventually, the bus makers are only going to build electric buses and that's it?

13 hours ago, Eric B said:

You say “plug-in”; that means tmis is still a hybrid? (I thought you were describing all-electrics).

 

NFI is Flyer, right? They own MCI now?

Manufacturers are going to make what the market demands. They all currently offer some type of all-electric buses anyway.

Yes NFI is New Flyer which owns MCI, and no this bus is all-Electric. Our current electric buses are duel-mode charging. Meaning they plug-in at the depot or fast charge along a route or with a mobile charger. 

All available electric vehicles are plug-in. Not many hybrids are plug-in at all. Only a few cars, but no buses. 

[Eric B]

Oh, OK. Because with cars, "plug-in" is used to specify hybrids (being that all-electrics all have plugs as you pointed out). So I guess for you, "plug-in type" meant plug-in ONLY.

[IAlam]

How many trips could an Electric MCI even do? Express bus service is already pretty iffy, if these buses don't have a similar range (Specifically in the winter) to the diesel counterparts I can see express bus service in the city getting a whole lot worse.  

[trife86]

33 minutes ago, IAlam said:

How many trips could an Electric MCI even do? Express bus service is already pretty iffy, if these buses don't have a similar range (Specifically in the winter) to the diesel counterparts I can see express bus service in the city getting a whole lot worse.  

I would assume a full shift, I would hope they are rated for 200+ miles? The highest mileage express pieces ( not full runs, but half's) usually don't do more than 100 miles.

And would have to see how weather effects them as well as the NGs alone really lack power during sub freezing temps (from experience) when it's working on more diesel power than electric you feel a huge difference.

 

But I don't know NADA about full electric power and don't claim to know more than I do.

Edited February 7, 2019 by trife86

[East New York]

57 minutes ago, Eric B said:

Oh, OK. Because with cars, "plug-in" is used to specify hybrids (being that all-electrics all have plugs as you pointed out). So I guess for you, "plug-in type" meant plug-in ONLY.

Used to lol. Not many hybrids are plug in these days. Most just have electric systems driven by the gas or Diesel engines now.

51 minutes ago, IAlam said:

How many trips could an Electric MCI even do? Express bus service is already pretty iffy, if these buses don't have a similar range (Specifically in the winter) to the diesel counterparts I can see express bus service in the city getting a whole lot worse.  

500 miles on a single charge in good weather conditions. Extreme temps sill won’t affect the bus even if the charge hold drops a whole 50%. Charge time is 3 hours for 100%. 

Rumor has it the next award may include electric express test buses.

18 minutes ago, trife86 said:

I would assume a full shift, I would hope they are rated for 200+ miles? The highest mileage express pieces ( not full runs, but half's) usually don't do more than 100 miles.

And would have to see how weather effects them as well as the NGs alone really lack power during sub freezing temps (from experience) when it's working on more diesel power than electric you feel a huge difference.

 

But I don't know NADA about full electric power and don't claim to know more than I do.

I’m a auto, truck and bus/diesel mechanic, so I’m still learning as well seeing as this tech is still developing. I do however love learning about it. I have also realized that they don’t require much maintenance at all. Not at many moving parts, not as many components need replacing. I should complete my master technician certification buy years end. There’s a whole new class on electrically driven vehicles that I can’t wait to dive into. However, being an RTS owner, Detroit raised, and Detroit Diesel Trained, I’m not quite ready to let go of my engines for this electric stuff. But it is what it is. It’s more efficient, clean, and tons better for the environment.

Truth be told, MTS did NOT want to continue forward with any other buses other than the RTS Extreme LF Electric. They just needed MTA to seal the deal for diesel to give them the money needed to start the electric line. MTS tech is much more advanced that what NFI has now, but they just dont have the funding. I signed an NDA with them, so I can’t discuss the all-electric tech they were developing. Let’s just say no-one wants it to actually come out because if it does, NFI will have competition again. They don’t really have any now. 

Thats all I’m gonna say about that...... 😉

[IAlam]

1 minute ago, East New York said:

500 miles on a single charge in good weather conditions. Extreme temps sill won’t affect the bus even if the charge hold drops a whole 50%. Charge time is 3 hours for 100%. 

Rumor has it the next award may include electric express test buses.

 

I'm definitely interested in seeing the performance of an all-electric coach demo. I also heard Tesla was going to release all their patents for anyone to use, so I wonder if manufacturers will take advantage of that. 

[FLX9304]

3 hours ago, Chris Alleyne said:

So is MTS actually dead or just inactive? Was Orion making an electric bus when they were still around?

Orion stopped production after the last CNGs came out