MTA Bus Operations: Fleet & Depots

[The Real]

17 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

So West Farms will not become 100% CNG?

No, its impossible at this time for that to occur based on the fleet needs of the service requirements.

[IAlam]

On 3/16/2018 at 7:14 AM, The Real said:

I gotta correct you bro.

At the time of the award for the CNG, Nova had built 2 buses for Calgary, the first Hamilton Street Railway order and was in the middle of building the Buffalo order. New Flyer lied on paper to the MTA about that.

Also Nova has just about the same amount of technical experience with Hybrids as New Flyer, just because they built more Hybrids for the Canadian properties than US properties doesn't lessen their technical know-how on building and supporting Hybrid buses.

New Flyer keeps using that "technical experience" excuse to the MTA about Nova, but the truth of the matter is while New Flyer may have been in the CNG game longer than Nova, Nova's technical know-how surpasses New Flyer. On the electrical vehicle front, Nova kicks New Flyer's ass but unlike New Flyer, Nova will not "cheapen" (lower its prices) just to score a bid, Nova knows what its worth. New Flyer, since 2013 has been underbidding itself and is a dangerous gambling game that if they don't watch themselves, they'll go the way of Flxible and Orion...who had tons orders at their close dates, but couldn't financially sustain itself after various financial woes INCLUDING under bidding. From the beginning of the Xcelsior production until around 2013, the X was priced at the most expensive bus on the market, followed by Nova, then Orion and the GILLIG. After 2013, all of a sudden we saw a jump, and a large jump in X orders nationwide, all of a sudden they were beating out GILLIG in markets that was GILLIG strongholds, that was the red flag for me with New Flyer. Some properties are starting to come to their senses about the X product, its still not where it should be in terms of quality for New Flyer to be boasting so much about it. Point Blank, Its Not. New Flyer should've kept the LFR platform around a bit longer and really got the X to where it should be in terms of quality and THEN gotten rid of the LFR, but its not THERE yet, its not.

Unlike the X....The Nova LFS, the GILLIG Low Floor all have had their time to mature and be the strong built, higher quality buses that they are, not debatable. I hate the the GILLIG Low Floor, with everything in me, but I know a quality built bus when I see it. You know I've been around this industry long enough to know. The Nova LFS, when it first came out was a weak product, it wasn't until the 2nd generation variant that the LFS became a well-built, strong quality product. HELL, even ElDorado has take the time to strengthen that Axxess platform and that a mean ass bus, I'm excited to see how they do in the LACMTA environment. But I say all that the say this, the MTA better be careful with all this New Flyer stuff, none of it sits well with me ESPECIALLY after having lived through and seeing the business and the business practices of many bus manufacturers. Get the X to where it really needs to be because every new order of Xs I've seen around the North American continent, and I've experienced many of Xs between the US and Canada, the quality is just not there yet. Pretty ass buses, yes! But for me that's where it stops.

15

I have to disagree with your statement on Gilligs. While I do agree that their buses have gotten better, they are still pretty crappy buses. When I ride those in Buffalo, even their newer 2010 buses rattle like crazy. 

Additionally, when it comes to the LFS first gen, again in Buffalo, these buses run in extremely harsh conditions, yet they still ride as smooth as the 4th gens that Buffalo just bought. It's amazing because how well the buses have held up for so many years. The only thing that I saw need repair on those buses were the doors, but pretty much everything else was in good condition. In fact, Buffalo started retiring their newer Gilligs over the 2000's LFS because they hold up better. 

On a side note now that I'm on break and back in the city, I've gotten a couple chances to ride the Xcelsior from CS. HOLLY CRAP like what happened to these buses? Their ride quality is almost as bad as the Gilligs I've ridden in Buffalo. My worse ride was yesterday night when I took the Q44 from the Bronx, I always remember the ride being bumpy with the LFSA's but this was the first time I came from the Bronx with an XD60 and it was absolutely horrible. At this point, I'm not sure if it was the buses or the road that got worse, but I do remember when the XD60's were new they even smoother than the XD40's.

[The Real]

11 hours ago, IAlam said:

I have to disagree with your statement on Gilligs. While I do agree that their buses have gotten better, they are still pretty crappy buses. When I ride those in Buffalo, even their newer 2010 buses rattle like crazy. 

Additionally, when it comes to the LFS first gen, again in Buffalo, these buses run in extremely harsh conditions, yet they still ride as smooth as the 4th gens that Buffalo just bought. It's amazing because how well the buses have held up for so many years. The only thing that I saw need repair on those buses were the doors, but pretty much everything else was in good condition. In fact, Buffalo started retiring their newer Gilligs over the 2000's LFS because they hold up better. 

On a side note now that I'm on break and back in the city, I've gotten a couple chances to ride the Xcelsior from CS. HOLLY CRAP like what happened to these buses? Their ride quality is almost as bad as the Gilligs I've ridden in Buffalo. My worse ride was yesterday night when I took the Q44 from the Bronx, I always remember the ride being bumpy with the LFSA's but this was the first time I came from the Bronx with an XD60 and it was absolutely horrible. At this point, I'm not sure if it was the buses or the road that got worse, but I do remember when the XD60's were new they even smoother than the XD40's.

 

The issue with GILLIGs, is the spec. GILLIG literally will let you either ruin the bus or get the best built bus. Every piece of a GILLIG is up to the property ordering it. Right down to the suspension. MANY take the off the shelf GILLIG which is actually more of a medium-duty spec, which then you get your crappy rides and horrible build. But those that have spec'd heavy duty GILLIGs, get a VERY good bus. It wasn't until I experienced the Minneapolis GILLIG that I got impressed, DASH in Alexandria got a good spec, Ride On in Maryland has a good spec, I was even impressed with the GILLIGs ordered by San Diego, but again, they spec'd them right. All of that matters.

As for the Novas, they always rode well. But the first gens were rather rough in other areas, Nova got it right with the second generation all around and the third and fourth generations are tanks! BUT again even the Nova LFS can suffer from a poor spec. The New York MTA Novas tend to ride a bit more rigid than any Nova I've ever experienced. The TA spec'd horrible tires and are now changing over the tires. The buses with the changed tires ride a lot more softer. Its crazy, but yes something as simple as a certain tire will change the whole ride quality of a bus. I find that LFS buses with Michelin, Firestone and Bridgestone tires ride like a coach and LFS buses with Goodyears tend to ride like bricks.

I as a bus owner have seen that with my own bus. I changed my rears to Goodyears as a temporary gap until Im able to get some Firestone FS400s and I noticed immediately a harder ride on the rear of my bus.

[East New York]

We have a few updates which I will add into the first page of this thread.

New Timeline for the upcoming orders.

Standard Buses

*The option order of 251 LFS’ is next up on roster. The pilots are reportedly complete, with audit inspection pending. This means the assignments may be on the horizon. At this time I cannot confirm the lead depot. I have confirmed that the order is being accelerated 

*The first XDE40 (hybrid) is now on the horizon pending final audit and delivery to Grand Avenue. I am being told the first bus in will be an Allison unit. This new Hybrid Bus Text & Evaluation will last for 18 months. During that time period, the MTA will evaluate the fuel economy, ease of maintenance or lack there of, uptime, MDBF numbers, emissions, and operations of the fleets sided by side. By the end of the evaluation in September 2019, MTA will have decided on the specs of the production buses and production pilot buses are scheduled to start delivery in October 2019.

* 25 Standard diesel buses for Bus Company with options for 16 more. This order has been pushed back for award from 2018 to Late 2019, or January 2020. Pilot buses for this order would then start in January 2021, and complete delivery by fall pick. 

 

Articulated Buses: Revised delivery schedules

*Next up for board approval will be 53 buses for MTA Bus. We should have the details on this one very soon. 

*Current XD60 delivery on hold pending assignments and will resume shortly.

*June/July 2019 is now the expected pilot delivery date for the XD60 options, and the LFSA options. This will allow for the XN60’s to enter service first, the current in delivery LFSA’s to settle in and displace other buses, and for the current XD60 base order to resume and wrap up. 

 will then better be able to assign all the option buses. As of right now, it appears as the 6126+ batch will start off going to Bus, the TA, then Bus, the back to TA. This will allow for all the loaners that are currently at Bus to transfer back to TA.

 

OTR Express Buses: Revised delivery schedules

* The MTA has decided to push back the award and delivery of the next express orders to evaluate the new MCI lineup, and finalize the new color scheme for the express fleet. The new schedule is as follows.

257 for Bus Company up next on the books for evaluation, board approval, and award. The pilots for the selected manufacturer are scheduled to begin production in January 2019 with award coming later this year. Delivery will run through April of 2021.

50 for NYCT are now scheduled for award at the time of Bus Co award are shortly after. Delivery would wrap up in March 2022.

 

 

 

[IAlam]

10 hours ago, The Real said:

 

The issue with GILLIGs, is the spec. GILLIG literally will let you either ruin the bus or get the best built bus. Every piece of a GILLIG is up to the property ordering it. Right down to the suspension. MANY take the off the shelf GILLIG which is actually more of a medium-duty spec, which then you get your crappy rides and horrible build. But those that have spec'd heavy duty GILLIGs, get a VERY good bus. It wasn't until I experienced the Minneapolis GILLIG that I got impressed, DASH in Alexandria got a good spec, Ride On in Maryland has a good spec, I was even impressed with the GILLIGs ordered by San Diego, but again, they spec'd them right. All of that matters.

As for the Novas, they always rode well. But the first gens were rather rough in other areas, Nova got it right with the second generation all around and the third and fourth generations are tanks! BUT again even the Nova LFS can suffer from a poor spec. The New York MTA Novas tend to ride a bit more rigid than any Nova I've ever experienced. The TA spec'd horrible tires and are now changing over the tires. The buses with the changed tires ride a lot more softer. Its crazy, but yes something as simple as a certain tire will change the whole ride quality of a bus. I find that LFS buses with Michelin, Firestone and Bridgestone tires ride like a coach and LFS buses with Goodyears tend to ride like bricks.

I as a bus owner have seen that with my own bus. I changed my rears to Goodyears as a temporary gap until Im able to get some Firestone FS400s and I noticed immediately a harder ride on the rear of my bus.

Hmm that interesting to see. Idk how good Buffalo maintenance is, but considering there is a big gap in ride quality, between the Nova's of all gens and the Gilligs there might be more too it. Considering that they were purchasing Gilligs for 15 years and then switch to Nova right after their economy started booming again might have something to do with how bad those Gilligs are.  
As for the buses here, what tires do the New Flyers have? Because if you're saying the tires were the problem for the Nova's, I wouldn't be surprised if NF buses have the same problem. Before I left for Buffalo the XD60's used to ride extremely well, but now they ride like garbage.

[JeremiahC99]

9 minutes ago, East New York said:

* 25 Standard diesel buses for Bus Company with options for 16 more. This order has been pushed back for award from 2018 to Late 2019, or January 2020. Pilot buses for this order would then start in January 2021, and complete delivery by fall pick. 

So the 284 Orion VII OG Hybrids (3500-3783) and 17 RTS buses (8933, 8969, 8971-8972, 8994, 9003, 9006, 9027, 9071, 9085, 9094, 9114, 9132, 9215, 9302, 9307, 9348) are expected to stay in service until 2021?
 

Also, what is the long term plan for MTA bus in terms of bus fleet?

Edited March 22, 2018 by JeremiahC99

[East New York]

2 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

So the 284 Orion VII OG Hybrids, and 9 RTS buses assigned to JFK and LaGuardia Depot are expected to stay until 2021?

Yes. The RTS will be retired and Bus is scheduled to get 22-25 Nova RTS sometime in the future for spares and extra service if needed. The oldest Orions (3500-3599) will only be 15 years old in 2021.  

[Rafa]

I don’t see why all the complaints about rts buses because they were good buses 15 years ago. 

[Brillant93]

6 minutes ago, Rafa said:

I don’t see why all the complaints about rts buses because they were good buses 15 years ago. 

15 years ago. 

[MysteriousBtrain]

5 minutes ago, Brillant93 said:

15 years ago. 

The 96's should of been gone last year. The only reason they likely stay today was because bus hated maintaining the 99's/possible service increases, which to me sounds like they will be returning anyways. 

 

They had their time, but unless they get rebuilt like the 7000's, they need to go, preferably with displacements from TA.

[JeremiahC99]

43 minutes ago, East New York said:

Yes. The RTS will be retired and Bus is scheduled to get 22-25 Nova RTS sometime in the future for spares and extra service if needed. The oldest Orions (3500-3599) will only be 15 years old in 2021.  

So is the new policy to retire buses after they reach 15-20 years old instead of 12 years old?

[East New York]

36 minutes ago, Rafa said:

I don’t see why all the complaints about rts buses because they were good buses 15 years ago. 

Lol. They are still good buses now. 

20 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

The 96's should of been gone last year. The only reason they likely stay today was because bus hated maintaining the 99's/possible service increases, which to me sounds like they will be returning anyways. 

 

They had their time, but unless they get rebuilt like the 7000's, they need to go, preferably with displacements from TA.

They aren't going anywhere before this decade ends. And nothing can handle as good as them in weather like this. 

7 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

So is the new policy to retire buses after they reach 15-20 years old instead of 12 years old?

That's how it's always been. MTA never had a 12 year replacement policy. 

[Express Bus Operator]

Yes get rid of them RTS’s.....  😁😁😁😁😁😁

They are knees busters for big and tall operators, some of the operators seats doesn’t go up enough to provide enough comfortably room to operate the bus safely....

[JeremiahC99]

5 minutes ago, East New York said:

That's how it's always been. MTA never had a 12 year replacement policy. 

Looks like we NYC has some excellent quality bus? Whats next: the New Flyer Xcelsiors and Nova LFS buses lasting 30 years?

 

Also, you have also said that the Nova LFS assignments are coming? Given that in Staten Island, the oldest buses are from 2009 and that the MTA wants new buses on SBS services, I'm guessing that some of the LFS buses possibly going to Staten Island will displace the 35 Orion VII NG Hybrids for the S79 SBS?

[MysteriousBtrain]

4 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Looks like we NYC has some excellent quality bus? Whats next: the New Flyer Xcelsiors and Nova LFS buses lasting 30 years?

Our RTS buses always lasted us about 17-20 years not including rebuilds, but Everything else is a maximum of 15-17 years and looked like crap by then (most notably the 99 v crew). Doubt anything we have now would really make it to 20, with maybe the LFS barely reaching that mark.

Edited March 22, 2018 by MysteriousBtrain
All LFS models

[East New York]

37 minutes ago, DueceDrives said:

Yes get rid of them RTS’s.....  😁😁😁😁😁😁

They are knees busters for big and tall operators, some of the operators seats doesn’t go up enough to provide enough comfortably room to operate the bus safely....

Lol! I've heard that a lot over the years, but you still have quite a few operators that are "big and tall" that don't want to pull out anything other than an RTS. Most newer operators don't want them. Vets however are a different story. Drivers at EC, EN, and MQ had fits over their RTS buses. EN went from hundreds to 0 then back to 60 cause operators called off and threatened not to come to work lol. 

This is one of those to each is own kind of things. I'm 5'7" 145 and love driving them. One of my closest friends who drives them for TA and has 2 ofhis own is a really big and tall guy and like many vets, he doesn't mind them at all. From a driving standpoint, my favorites rank as follows:

1.RTS GMC/TMC/Nova/MTS

2. Grumman/Flxble

3. LFSA

4 Classic GM/TMC/MCI/Nova

5. D40HF

6. Orion VII 

7. DE40LF

I've always wanted to drive a D60HF, and an Orion V. Hopefully I get the V under my belt by the end of this year. 

31 minutes ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Looks like we NYC has some excellent quality bus? Whats next: the New Flyer Xcelsiors and Nova LFS buses lasting 30 years?

 

Also, you have also said that the Nova LFS assignments are coming? Given that in Staten Island, the oldest buses are from 2009 and that the MTA wants new buses on SBS services, I'm guessing that some of the LFS buses possibly going to Staten Island will displace the 35 Orion VII NG Hybrids for the S79 SBS?

30 years? Never. Many of the C40LF's however could hit or near the 20 year mark. 

And for the rest can we just please wait for the assignments? 

27 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said:

Our RTS buses always lasted us about 17-20 years not including rebuilds, but Everything else is a maximum of 15-17 years and looked like crap by then (most notably the 99 v crew). Doubt anything we have now would really make it to 20, with maybe the LFS barely reaching that mark.

There's an additional factor in all this. Detroit Diesel engines historically last longer than their Cummins counterparts. As a mechanic I can now see why. It comes down to maintenance and the costs.

Example. 9140-9149 didn't last anywhere nearly along as the rest and buses that are older are still here. 

I recently had an opportunity to purchase an ex-NJT/Coach 15XX, but I'm going to pass on that and go for another DD. 

 

Edited March 22, 2018 by East New York

[Orion6025]

15 hours ago, East New York said:

RTS will be retired and Bus is scheduled to get 22-25 Nova RTS sometime in the future for spares and extra service if needed

So 1999 RTS will move in?

[T J Trainman]

It looks that way. 

[Blitz]

On 3/21/2018 at 8:54 AM, The Real said:

 

The issue with GILLIGs, is the spec. GILLIG literally will let you either ruin the bus or get the best built bus. Every piece of a GILLIG is up to the property ordering it. Right down to the suspension. MANY take the off the shelf GILLIG which is actually more of a medium-duty spec, which then you get your crappy rides and horrible build. But those that have spec'd heavy duty GILLIGs, get a VERY good bus. It wasn't until I experienced the Minneapolis GILLIG that I got impressed, DASH in Alexandria got a good spec, Ride On in Maryland has a good spec, I was even impressed with the GILLIGs ordered by San Diego, but again, they spec'd them right. All of that matters.

As for the Novas, they always rode well. But the first gens were rather rough in other areas, Nova got it right with the second generation all around and the third and fourth generations are tanks! BUT again even the Nova LFS can suffer from a poor spec. The New York MTA Novas tend to ride a bit more rigid than any Nova I've ever experienced. The TA spec'd horrible tires and are now changing over the tires. The buses with the changed tires ride a lot more softer. Its crazy, but yes something as simple as a certain tire will change the whole ride quality of a bus. I find that LFS buses with Michelin, Firestone and Bridgestone tires ride like a coach and LFS buses with Goodyears tend to ride like bricks.

I as a bus owner have seen that with my own bus. I changed my rears to Goodyears as a temporary gap until Im able to get some Firestone FS400s and I noticed immediately a harder ride on the rear of my bus.

You sure you running the right pressure in your tires? Overfilled tires ride harder that properly filled tires.

[R32 3838]

Its rumored that the 2005 orion VII's about 25 of them are going to mta bus to replace the 96 rts. FP getting like 20-25 xd40's, those would bump out 6490-6514 to mta bus if the rumors are true

[JeremiahC99]

8 hours ago, R32 3838 said:

Its rumored that the 2005 orion VII's about 25 of them are going to mta bus to replace the 96 rts. FP getting like 20-25 xd40's, those would bump out 6490-6514 to mta bus if the rumors are true

If the rumors are true, then I hope that would mean the MTA BUS company fleet (for the non-express services) will be 100% low floor buses.

[T J Trainman]

I just got word that about 7 4900s from FLA are going to LGA. I’m not sure when yet.

Edited March 24, 2018 by T J Trainman

[mrmallard]

quick up date  how many  rts left  as 3/23/18

[Orion6025]

1 hour ago, T J Trainman said:

I just got word that about 7 4900s from FLA are going to LGA. I’m not sure when yet.

If this rumor is true, then likely April or May if I had to guess. Doesn't make sense for any to leave Flatbush without getting any buses in return, unless they have a surplus that i'm not aware of.

[T J Trainman]

It’s not a rumor, it’s happening...... I don’t post rumors.