BrooklynBus Posted August 23, 2011 Share #51 Posted August 23, 2011 I always wondered why they take years to take action on anything.... thought it was a stall tactic, as if to say... (gee, I hope these fools forget all about it so we won't have to waste time & money to have to delve in this crap)... Their vacations, luxuries/bonuses, etc. are more important than the true purpose & responsibility/duties behind them having the positions they have in the first place, have them tell it.... God how I despise corporate america...... Way I see it, fair is fair.... If I feel the MTA is wrong with x, right with y, and mixed on z, I'm not gonna only bring up x.... May or may not be intentional, but you've long have a habit of doing that.... People who have never worked for the MTA or NYCT, tend to think of it as a monolith or one organization. Actually every department is different. I worked in about a half dozen during my career. The only one I have a beef with is Operations Planning and the Budget people they take orders from. I have a lot of respect for the other departments I've worked for and ones I never worked in like RTO. I never talk about the other departments because they usually have no bearing on discussions here. OP is extremely arrogant. They feel they have all the answers and every one else knows nothing. You can see this when you look at the number of suggestions they approve at the annual Employee Suggestion Awards Ceremony. The last department I worked for was the Central Electronics Shop. At the last ceremony I attended in 2006, they approved approximately 50 of the suggestions submitted to them by employees of that department which saves the MTA millions of dollars. A good suggestion can earn as much as $12,000. The MTA makes money because a single suggestion can save them several hundred thousand dollars. In contrast OP approved only three suggestions, none of them involving route changes. I submitted about 40 suggestions to them, all rejected with illogical reasoning and double talk. Far as that last part, BS like that is why I'm not suitable to be a white collar type of dude..... Too bad you feel you couldn't be white collar. You certainly have the intelligence. I meant what I said about you heading OP. I think you know more than all of them put together. The problem is you would end up as frustrated as me, because you wouldn't have to power to do what you want. You would be forced to follow the idiotic rules set by budget like cost neutrality. One problem is they put budget people in key positions in Planning, not planners. That's like using a dentist to operate on your appendix. When I was head of Bus Planning, I had to listen to the idiots who ran Bus Transportation who called the shots before OP was put under Budget. Back then, not only couldn't I get them to add service, I couldn't even get them to cut service either! They would respond to me, "How could we cut that service, people depend on us." If I suggested an improvement, they would say, why change it if it works now? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Only if there was a safety issue involved, would they listen. Anyway, why does it have to be necessarily about riding to gateway? these were the same clowns that originally didn't want buses on their territory to begin with.... ....and two, the way I see it, the discontinuation of the B18 would've still made sense - regardless of whether they kept service levels the same on the old 13, or doubled it.... may not have been justification for doubling service on the 13, but there was justification to gettin rid of that route (the 18) though..... There was justification for doubling service on the B13 at least south of Jamaica Avenue. It was only running every 30 minutes. After Gateway opened, in spite of those lousy headways, ridership on the B13 increased by 80% after Gateway opened. What I said was that it made no sense to increase service on the northern part of the route because people wouldn't ride that far to Gateway since there were better shopping opportunities closer to them. If there was another reason to increase service near Bushwick, then it would have been okay (They wouldn't necessarily have to go to Gateway) but I don't think there was. What you're bringing up here is totally unrelated to the original point you made to me about more people riding B1's b/w brighton bch & dyker hgts, compared to those riding B13's b/w Bushwick & ENY..... It is not unrelated because before the B1 was modified in 1978, virtually no one was traveling between Brighton Beach and Bensonhurst or Bay Ridge by bus, because it was a three or four bus trip. The only way to go was to take the Brighton subway to Downtown Brooklyn and then take the R or West End Line back to 86th Street. The new bus route greatly increased the numbers of people making the trip. Even with one route between Bushwick and Spring Creek, I doubt it if many people are making that trip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted August 23, 2011 Share #52 Posted August 23, 2011 Something's still not right w/ the last parts of your posts to me.... Which may have not been justified because in addition to no bus alternative to Cypress Avenue, passengers boarding at Jamaica Avenue now had to take the B13 and ride 10 to 15 minutes longer all so that one bus a day could be saved. And those savings lasted only a year. After that, the route combination costed more money. When I created the longer B1, passengers actually rode from Brighton Beach to Dyker Heights and some even to Bay Ridge. When the B13 and B18 were combined there were virtually no riders from Bushwick to East New York. If there were, they wouldn't have eliminated service north of DeKalb. Here you are basically tellin me that the B1 when you created it or w/e, was justified b/c it carried more riders over a longer distance, compared to the B13 that was formed from the old B13/B18 merge..... Sort of true. But it does have to do with the routes. If a trip between two points requires three or more buses and there is no subway alternative, people will not make the trip. Although the fare structure was different back in the 1970s, that was one of the things I learned from the O/D survey I conducted back then. I think something like 5% of the passengers made trips involving three buses. The only major trip pattern using three to five buses I saw in the routes I surveyed was students taking up to 5 buses each way to get from Staten Island to Kingsborough College. There were an estimated 50 students a day using 5 buses for a single trip. Here you are basically making reference to a 2 fare zone (the 3+ bus trip).... What this has to do w/ your quotable above, and what this has to do w/ the B13 & the lack of riders b/w ENY & Bushwick, I really don't know... What does the 3 legged commute have to do w/ the B13 ? I'm not seeing the connection you tried to make in even having mentioned this quotable, as it pertained to my response to the 1st quotable of yours.... It is not unrelated because before the B1 was modified in 1978, virtually no one was traveling between Brighton Beach and Bensonhurst or Bay Ridge by bus, because it was a three or four bus trip. The only way to go was to take the Brighton subway to Downtown Brooklyn and then take the R or West End Line back to 86th Street. The new bus route greatly increased the numbers of people making the trip. Even with one route between Bushwick and Spring Creek, I doubt it if many people are making that trip. Here you are simply elaborating on/reinforcing the point you made in the first quotable, in regards to the B1..... I never once claimed that the B13 was for one, successful, and two, the B13 being as, or even more successful than the B1.... ----------------------------------- Overall, in the series of these three responses, it looks as if you're trying to prove to me that the B1 from end to end made more sense than the (combined) B13 from end to end..... Which was never in question to begin with.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted August 23, 2011 Share #53 Posted August 23, 2011 Let me just say this. You made the following post: The riding habits of passengers over a longer distance between 2 points in one area of the borough, compared to the riding habits b/w 2 points in another area, has nothin to do with either the routes themselves - and has everything to with the neighborhoods themselves... Some (neighborhoods) are more dense than others, some have more to offer than others..... quite frankly, some have more in common than others..... I responded that it does have to do with the routes themselves and that's why I brought up the B1 saying that before it was in place going to Brighton Beach, people were not making the trip between Bay Ridge/Bensonhurt and Brighton Beach and now they do make it in large numbers especially to Bensonhurst. Yes, neighborhoods and density also play a large role. The three legged commute has nothing to do with the B13. I merely mentioned it regarding the B1 to show that it matters to have a direct route because people in general will not use more than two buses, so even if it were possible to get between Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst by bus with more than two buses, people wouldn't make the trip. Then you say you never claimed the B13 was successful and at the same time you say they got it right with the merger, so I really don't get you. So what are you saying? It's good that they merged the routes because its better than before, but it still isn't successful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted August 23, 2011 Share #54 Posted August 23, 2011 Let me just say this. You made the following post: I responded that it does have to do with the routes themselves and that's why I brought up the B1 saying that before it was in place going to Brighton Beach, people were not making the trip between Bay Ridge/Bensonhurt and Brighton Beach and now they do make it in large numbers especially to Bensonhurst. Yes, neighborhoods and density also play a large role. The three legged commute has nothing to do with the B13. I merely mentioned it regarding the B1 to show that it matters to have a direct route because people in general will not use more than two buses, so even if it were possible to get between Bay Ridge and Bensonhurst by bus with more than two buses, people wouldn't make the trip. Then you say you never claimed the B13 was successful and at the same time you say they got it right with the merger, so I really don't get you. So what are you saying? It's good that they merged the routes because its better than before, but it still isn't successful? No dude, you're getting the order of events all wrong... that's what happens when you're all over the place w/ your arguments.... this is the second time where you're mixing up 2 separate arguments in your rebuttal to me again.... - [post #29] is where I mentioned that they got it right w/ the B13... - [post #42] is where you disagreed w/ my opinion of the merged B13; it's also where you brought up the term "so successful", which I never said in post #29.... - [post #45] is where I implicitly said: "I said they got it right with the merger; said nothin about successful - don't put words in my mouth" - [middle of post #47] is where you got all confused b/w "getting it right" & "being successful".... - [end of post #47] is where you brought up the B1, and how many more people rode that over a longer distance, compared to the B13, etc etc. - [post #48] is where that snippet you're now quoting of mine, came from..... I only brought up the point about the neighborhood, in response to the end of post# 47.... Whatever point you were tryna make bringing up the B1, came AFTER I said I never claimed the B13 was successful..... So the way you opened w/ that 3rd paragraph is just false..... ....and I'm not gonna attempt to explain to you, the difference b/w gettin somethin right & outright success again... like I implied before, they're on two separate playing fields.... I still don't see what you're confused about w/ that.... I still think you used the B1 (at the end of post #47) to try to prove to me that the B13 isn't the success you think I thought it was, but Que sera, sera..... ------------------ ...as far as your 2nd paragraph is concerned, thanks for finally admitting what I was tryna get through to you.... Like I tried to tell you before, that entire B1 thing had nothin to do with what was being discussed at that particular moment.... I was not questioning/disputing: - people having to use more than 2 buses - how far riders travel on the B13 - how indirect the B13 is (matter fact, I even said the meandering of the route, better serves Ridgewood) ....So riders up there don't have direct Cypress av service, and have to wind through Ridgewood instead, due to the discontinuation of the 18... I mean, the merger of the B13/18 only involved 2 buses..... That's why I was like, where is this whole third bus (or, excuse me "more than 2 buses") thing coming from..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted August 24, 2011 Share #55 Posted August 24, 2011 Whatever point you were tryna make bringing up the B1, came AFTER I said I never claimed the B13 was successful..... So the way you opened w/ that 3rd paragraph is just false..... Is this the sentence you are talking about in the 3rd paragraph? "The three legged commute has nothing to do with the B13?" I was only agreeing with you because you asked me what does taking multiple buses in Bay Ridge / Bensonhurst / Brighton Beach have to do with the B13. I was saying it doesn't have anything to do with it. Now you are saying that what I said is false when I'm agreeing with you? I'm afraid you've lost me completely. ....and I'm not gonna attempt to explain to you, the difference b/w gettin somethin right & outright success again... like I implied before, they're on two separate playing fields.... I still don't see what you're confused about w/ that.... Yes, I'm confused how you can say "they got something right" and at the same time say that you never said they were successful. How do you "get something right" and at the same time say it wasn't a success? Okay, you never actually said it wasn't a success. You said that when I said that you said it was successful, you never said that? And now you say you won't explain the difference between success and getting something right, so I have actually no idea of what you are talking about and I give up. ....So riders up there don't have direct Cypress av service, and have to wind through Ridgewood instead, due to the discontinuation of the 18... I mean, the merger of the B13/18 only involved 2 buses..... That's why I was like, where is this whole third bus (or, excuse me "more than 2 buses") thing coming from..... This more than two buses is coming from your statement in Post #48 that said "The riding habits of passengers over a longer distance between 2 points in one area...compared to another area has nothing to do with either the routes themselves, and has everything to do with the neighborhoods..." I responded that it does have to do with the routes (or lack of adequate routes) and I was using the situation before the B1 was created to show how a lack of a good routing system will prevent trips from being made between neighborhoods. (I was never disputing that neighborhoods and density are also factors.) But you were saying the routes were not a factor and I was saying they were a factor. That's where the 2 and 3 buses came in. Is that clear enough now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted August 24, 2011 Share #56 Posted August 24, 2011 Is this the sentence you are talking about in the 3rd paragraph? "The three legged commute has nothing to do with the B13?" I was only agreeing with you because you asked me what does taking multiple buses in Bay Ridge / Bensonhurst / Brighton Beach have to do with the B13. I was saying it doesn't have anything to do with it. Now you are saying that what I said is false when I'm agreeing with you? I'm afraid you've lost me completely. No. The THIRD paragraph of (your) [post #53], not the second paragraph.... Yes, I'm confused how you can say "they got something right" and at the same time say that you never said they were successful. How do you "get something right" and at the same time say it wasn't a success? Okay, you never actually said it wasn't a success. You said that when I said that you said it was successful, you never said that? And now you say you won't explain the difference between success and getting something right, so I have actually no idea of what you are talking about and I give up. That part in bold there.... smh.... What am I denying not ever stating, outside of using the word success.... talk about relying on semantics.... It's not my fault if you don't understand the success of something, and simply gettin something right..... gettin something right doesn't always equate to success... This more than two buses is coming from your statement in Post #48 that said "The riding habits of passengers over a longer distance between 2 points in one area...compared to another area has nothing to do with either the routes themselves, and has everything to do with the neighborhoods..." Again, which was said AFTER that B1 & B13 comparison of yours..... I responded that it does have to do with the routes (or lack of adequate routes) and I was using the situation before the B1 was created to show how a lack of a good routing system will prevent trips from being made between neighborhoods. (I was never disputing that neighborhoods and density are also factors.) But you were saying the routes were not a factor and I was saying they were a factor. That's where the 2 and 3 buses came in. Is that clear enough now? I know you weren't disputing the neighborhood aspect of it, and I wasn't questioning the conciseness of the point dude.... I was questioning the relevancy of that overall point, hence me saying: "I'm not seeing the connection you tried to make in even having mentioned this quotable...." to be honest, I still don't see where it's relevant.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted August 25, 2011 Share #57 Posted August 25, 2011 This has gone on long enough. Just explain to me one thing. How can you "get something right" and also say that doesn't equate with success? To me that is contradictory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted August 25, 2011 Share #58 Posted August 25, 2011 This has gone on long enough. Just explain to me one thing. How can you "get something right" and also say that doesn't equate with success? To me that is contradictory. Oh, What happened to: Still confused, but let's forget it. Now you come back here wanting an explanation, still stuck on semantics.... You come at me flat out telling me that it's contradictory..... and then you want me to make an explanation.... What the hell's the point if you're comin in w/ a jaded frame of mind..... I'll repeat myself just this once... if this doesn't satisfy you (not that I have to, either way), too damn bad...... Like I said before, success is on a grander scale than gettin something right.... it is not the same thing.... It's good that they merged the routes because its better than before, but it still isn't successful? ....and yes, this is the gist of what I'm saying.... There's nothin wrong in sayin something like that. Whether you disagree with that logic, or find it contradictory, or whatever, at this point I really don't care.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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