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Light Rail in NYC?


xloakedx

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Staten Island might be the only borough that would ever have light rail service, because of it's lack of subway service, the West Shore Light Rail proposal, and the ability of light rail to cross the Verrazano Narrows Bridge. I don't really see light rail popping up elsewhere. Oh well at least it might appease light rail/streetcar foamers.

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Staten Island might be the only borough that would ever have light rail service, because of it's lack of subway service, the West Shore Light Rail proposal, and the ability of light rail to cross the Verrazano Narrows Bridge. I don't really see light rail popping up elsewhere. Oh well at least it might appease light rail/streetcar foamers.

 

Uh No... What would happen more likely is if the HBLR would cross over the Bayonne Bridge and it end up in Staten Island.

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That is the West Shore Light Rail proposal. Here is the map of the real proposal.

 

Notice how it veers far west of any development. That corridor doesn't even deserve a local bus line. It would be far better to send the LRT straight down Richmond Avenue. And there are at least three better potential corridors for streetcars on Staten Island: the (S51), the (S62), and the (S48), the last of which really should be extended to Elizabeth (or even Newark).

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Ok.. Here's my opinion: light rail sucks compared to the subway. It's slow, small and ruins the place where it's built. It may look cool, but, trust me it isn't. Especially for New York. It's a terrible waste of money, which can be saved for other more practical things, like extending the subway. And it also causes lots of accidents!

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Notice how it veers far west of any development. That corridor doesn't even deserve a local bus line. It would be far better to send the LRT straight down Richmond Avenue. And there are at least three better potential corridors for streetcars on Staten Island: the (S51), the (S62), and the (S48), the last of which really should be extended to Elizabeth (or even Newark).

 

Part of the reason for sending it along the WSE is to avoid NIMBYs. By using the expressways (MLK, SIE, and WSE), it'll stay out of everybody's way.

 

The other purpose is to try to spur development in the area. I'm sure people would be more willing to stay at a hotel in SI if they realized that it is a short train ride away from (what will be) NYC's largest park. Plus, you might get some people who work in Jersey City living near the train.

 

Once it goes onto the SIE, the area is already dense, so there will probably be natural ridership there. See this report for more details: http://www.siedc.org/Capital-Projects/west-shore-light-rail (Click on the Phase II Study Link)

 

I also have the Phase I Study, but it was forwarded to me by a person who took part in it (so it isn't available online. PM me if you want it)

 

Out of the three routes you mentioned, the S48 would be the only one with the ridership to support light rail (and I do agree that it should be extended to NJ somehow. My plan was to have the S98 run full time to Newark Airport (the S48 headways would be increased a bit, from 12 minutes to 15 minutes).

 

Richmond Avenue isn't as dense as you think it is. Only the northern section (which would still be served by that routing) is really dense.

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Part of the reason for sending it along the WSE is to avoid NIMBYs. By using the expressways (MLK, SIE, and WSE), it'll stay out of everybody's way.

 

Including all the riders.

 

The other purpose is to try to spur development in the area. I'm sure people would be more willing to stay at a hotel in SI if they realized that it is a short train ride away from (what will be) NYC's largest park. Plus, you might get some people who work in Jersey City living near the train.

 

It would need to be pretty intensive development. Water and large parks are disastrous for ridership. As a guesstimate, the ridership of that route should be about the same or lower than that of the (S55) or (S56). Just look at the population density maps on the Census Bureau's website. It's dubious that it should even be a bus.

 

Once it goes onto the SIE, the area is already dense, so there will probably be natural ridership there. See this report for more details: http://www.siedc.org/Capital-Projects/west-shore-light-rail (Click on the Phase II Study Link)

 

From what I can make out from the map, there are no intermediate stops on the SIE segment. So it doesn't really matter how many people can wave at a train they can't catch. The stop west of the SIE segment appears to be extremely poorly located, in fact.

 

Out of the three routes you mentioned, the S48 would be the only one with the ridership to support light rail (and I do agree that it should be extended to NJ somehow. My plan was to have the S98 run full time to Newark Airport (the S48 headways would be increased a bit, from 12 minutes to 15 minutes).

 

I was being lazy and using route numbers as a shorthand for the corridors. Other routes overlap large segments of these corridors. There is a fundamental problem with the SI bus network that frequencies are kept low and the number of routes multiplied by the need to make ferry connections (and I would argue that upgrading the ferry should be the number one transit priority for SI).

 

Basically what I was getting at is that between those three corridors, the SIR, and the North Shore Line, the result is extremely good coverage of the parts of the island where people actually live.

 

Richmond Avenue isn't as dense as you think it is. Only the northern section (which would still be served by that routing) is really dense.

 

It's not Brooklyn by any means, but it's still the core of the densest corridor across SI. It's much much denser than parks and water. Everything is relative.

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It is annoying to see on the various "proposed light rail maps" made and posted, that the creators somehow seem to exclude the Staten Island Mall, and giving "rapid" access to it in their various fantasy maps and plans. I don't know why that is?

 

I have also never really understood the rationale of placing light rail and other transit improvements along highways that are actually rather difficult for regular pedestrians or bus riders to get to, and possibly use? It is most "fun" when the "station stops" are few and very widely spaced - just how will people - REAL PEOPLE get to it (the new transit facility" and actually use the new transit?

 

Just a couple of questions.

Mike

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I created a light rail map for Staten Island before, but I also expanded and edited it a while back. The light blue shows the SIR, and the North Shore Branch. If you are wondering about the orange line on the map it's a light rail line from Eltingville to Bay Ridge-95th Street using the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, and the Staten Island Expressway.

5852997931_a8e0226fe7_b.jpg

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I created a light rail map for Staten Island before, but I also expanded and edited it a while back. The light blue shows the SIR, and the North Shore Branch. If you are wondering about the orange line on the map it's a light rail line from Eltingville to Bay Ridge-95th Street using the Verrazano Narrows Bridge, and the Staten Island Expressway.

5852997931_a8e0226fe7_b.jpg

 

How many times are you going to post that? B)

 

But seriously, it's beautiful. The orange line is a very good idea, but the Verrezano Narrows would need significant updates to build a light rail line across it. It's not impossible though, and I would love to see it happen. Not sure about the stop in the middle of knowhere on the HBLR, though...

 

I also think that a light rail line could be implimented for 125th Ave in Manhattan too, if the (Q) won't go there.

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IMO, there are 2 different types of LRT: those with almost 100% street running (like SEPTA trollies), and those that mainly run like on a dedicated ROW but do not meet FRA standards (RiverLINE, NCS)

 

The former would not do in NYC, as the amount of train vs. car collisions would be too large. Not only do traffic situations often arise in NYC that involve cars crossing the median outside of an intersection, the high frequency of "trams" needed to move the expected passenger demand would mean that any one vehicle that stops to avoid a car would back up train traffic very easily.

 

Plus, with the rampant fare evasion on buses, I wonder if the honor system would work as well on light rail trains longer than SBS artics.

 

Then there's the issue of NIMBYISM and people not wanting a "catenary" (really trolley wire, catenary is 2 lines) system built over their street and obscuring their view. Plus the loud bells and the ugly construction.

 

As for dedicated-ROW LRT, it could work on SI. But Western SI isn't that densely populated to warrant local service not traveling to the ferry. The Bay Ridge Branch idea is really the only one that would work, either as light rail or as heavy rail. However, it would cut off freight service on the line unless FRA-compliant vehicles are used (very unlikely) or time-based separation is used (which would limit night service). North of Fresh Pond, it's a pretty busy line as it's the only way out for LI freight cars other than the boat.

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The Bay Ridge Branch idea is really the only one that would work, either as light rail or as heavy rail. However, it would cut off freight service on the line unless FRA-compliant vehicles are used (very unlikely) or time-based separation is used (which would limit night service). North of Fresh Pond, it's a pretty busy line as it's the only way out for LI freight cars other than the boat.

 

Freight trains run on the Riverline overnight when its not running, the same could apply to the Bay Ridge Branch Light Rail, I never seen a Freight run on the Branch during the day, the line runs near where I live. The only time I remember seeing a actual train on the line during the day was like 2003 or so and those LIRR work diesels (MP15s?) appeared to be doing some kind of task along the line.

 

 

Also there is room on the ROW for more tracks, they just build two extra tracks for the LR and call it a day if that lone track is busy during the day.

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The Bay Ridge Branch can support 4 tracks. However it won't be a good idea to run light rail on the Bay Ridge Branch, because it's extremely close to several subway lines, and it seems to be a better idea to have a subway service use the line instead either as an independent subway line, or as a extension of a current subway line.

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