The sad story of Staten Island bus service. How would you cheer the borough up?

[qjtransitmaster]

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Sorry for the double post but the map wasn't showing.

 

No need for the new perth amboy route my plan turns S56/55 into perth amboy routes with one to cheesquake for connections to academy with extensions to PNC 3 hours before events and 3 hours after. And the other to old bridge park and ride linking to NJT's 139 and many other NJT based routes. As for elizbeth if ur gonna do that ur better off extending NJT's 58 line to mariners harbor. Even though my NJT plan sends 58 to dover replacing NJT's 880's upper segment.

 

Heck NJT's 94 line can go to SI via 278 but I rather an MTA rte do that

[engineerboy6561]

No need for the new perth amboy route my plan turns S56/55 into perth amboy routes with one to cheesquake for connections to academy with extensions to PNC 3 hours before events and 3 hours after. And the other to old bridge park and ride linking to NJT's 139 and many other NJT based routes

 

OK, a few things.

 

1) What is "cheesquake"?

 

2) I can see how you could send the S56 to Perth Amboy without dropping too many areas in SI, but how would you do that with the S55 unless you cut it in half and made each half its own route?

 

3) Are you sure you want to send the route all the way to Old Bridge? The whole point of the extension I proposed was to give southern SI folks the opportunity to take the local bus to commuter rail into NYP if they needed something more reliable than the bus/ferry combo. I doubt very many people will take a local bus all the way to Old Bridge just to transfer to an NJT bus, and the reliability issues you'll create by extending it will probably turn off more riders than your plan will attract.

 

4) The PNC Bank Arts Center? Dude, that's way the f--- out in Holmdel. Nothing I know of goes near there; even the NJT website doesn't show service to there but rather directs me to a list of nearby rail stations and Park&Rides. You'd be taking a route that's 8-8.5 miles end to end already (SI Mall-Perth Amboy) and making it at least 21, more if you want it to make stops in NJ. That would be at least a two-hour ride, maybe more, and I can't see anyone riding it that far.

[qjtransitmaster]

OK, a few things.

 

1) What is "cheesquake"?

The main park and ride service plaza where many academy routes stop en rte to central NJ.2) I can see how you could send the S56 to Perth Amboy without dropping too many areas in SI, but how would you do that with the S55 unless you cut it in half and made each half its own route? S56 is that short. S55 is very short those routes don't have huge problems like others do except their frequency.3) Are you sure you want to send the route all the way to Old Bridge? The whole point of the extension I proposed was to give southern SI folks the opportunity to take the local bus to commuter rail into NYP if they needed something more reliable than the bus/ferry combo. I doubt very many people will take a local bus all the way there just to transfer to an NJT bus, and the reliability issues you'll create by extending it will probably turn off more riders than your plan will attract. The route would have very few stops in NJ and only stop for connections to NJT routes closed door.It is for ppl heading to central and southern NJ NOT for ppl going to NYP or northern NJ those ppl will need S574) The PNC Bank Arts Center? Dude, that's way the **** out in Holmdel. Nothing I know of goes near there; even the NJT website doesn't show service to there but rather directs me to a list of nearby rail stations and Park&Rides.

The way for elizbeth is extension of NJT's 37 line the 37 will be renumbered 109!!!!! NY SI or be the super express to BK bay ridge.

 

Academy is the one who serves PNC NOT NJT plus the extension to PNC is for EVENTS ONLY!!!!! NOT regularly scheduled service. replies in red

[engineerboy6561]

Academy is the one who serves PNC NOT NJT plus the extension to PNC is for EVENTS ONLY!!!!! NOT regularly scheduled service. replies in red

 

1) OK, thanks for the info.

 

2) Look at the bus map; the S55 is a U-shaped route, cutting across Drumgoole Rd (the service road for Richmond Pkwy) about 2/3 of the way to the jail. If you send the S55 via Bayview/Amboy/Maguire/Drumgoole then something has to take over on Bloomingdale Av. If you extend it from the jail via Arthur Kill/Clay Pit/West Shore/Richmond you've just created a time-consuming and obnoxious detour for no good reason.

 

3) That might be possible, but by the time we're talking sending a bus to Old Bridge we're talking about nearly doubling the route length from the Perth Amboy run. That sounds more like something an express bus should be doing than a regular local bus.

 

4) PNC is worse than Old Bridge; even if it's for only a few trips due to events those few buses are going to be essentially off the grid for a long time, and mostly carrying air to boot because nobody's going to want to sit on an MTA local bus from SI all the way out to PNC for events. Again, that should be handled by express buses rather than overstretched local buses.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I never said that artics belonged on all or even very many SI local routes; my point was that suburban-style artics would do very well making peak-direction trips on certain chronically overcrowded express bus lines (of which I only listed three; the X1, the X10, and the X17) so we no longer had people standing in MCI stairwells, which as a side effect would also deal with the problem of half-dead 1998-9 D4500s and DL3s (50 suburban artics could be used to displace 50 of the worst MCIs and still gain seating space), and then that these artics could run on perennially crowded local lines (the S53/93 and S79, for the most part) when not in use on express bus runs.

 

Yeah, but have you ever wondered WHY the X1, X10 and X17 are overcrowded??? You can put all of the artics on those lines in the world and if they don't show up on time or go MIA or come bunched up, or run early, it won't make much of a difference. The MCIs are perfectly fine. The reliability of the express buses is the issue in just about all cases, so we can now put this artic rhetoric to rest. If they stop letting buses run 10 - 15 minutes hot you wouldn't have the overcrowding. The overcrowding at night could be addressed by simply adding a few more buses which could be pulled from runs that are lighter. You don't artics for that.

[engineerboy6561]

Yeah, but have you ever wondered WHY the X1, X10 and X17 are overcrowded??? You can put all of the artics on those lines in the world and if they don't show up on time or go MIA or come bunched up, or run early, it won't make much of a difference. The MCIs are perfectly fine. The reliability of the express buses is the issue in just about all cases, so we can now put this artic rhetoric to rest. If they stop letting buses run 10 - 15 minutes hot you wouldn't have the overcrowding. The overcrowding at night could be addressed by simply adding a few more buses which could be pulled from runs that are lighter. You don't need artics for that.

 

I figure you're probably right about the overcrowding at night and I support 24/7 service on the most crowded SI express bus routes. Also, if you read the rest of my post I did say that step 1 of fixing SI bus service was to do a comprehensive reexamination and overhaul of schedules so that they more accurately match operators' runtimes. However, overcrowding due to early/late/missing buses is a different phenomenon from peak-of-the-peak overcrowding, which seems to be a serious issue on certain SI express buses.

 

I mentioned artics because during part of the PM peak to SI you have X1s and X1 variants coming every two to three minutes to the point of MCI parades down in the Financial District and there's still some poor guy riding in the stairwell. Hell, I fanned the X1 a couple of times during rush and I was the guy in the stairwell. Not very comfortable. When frequency is that high I figure that part of the problem is demand simply outstripping seating space at certain times of the day and 70-80 seat buses vs. 50-seat buses would provide the necessary seating space during that time. The S93 suggestion was merely to give the buses a use outside peak-of-the-peak timeframes; the buses could just as easily run to Manhattan in the morning, on Manhattan artic routes like the M101-103 during the day, and then to SI during the evening peak.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I figure you're probably right about the overcrowding at night and I support 24/7 service on the most crowded SI express bus routes. Also, if you read the rest of my post I did say that step 1 of fixing SI bus service was to do a comprehensive reexamination and overhaul of schedules so that they more accurately match operators' runtimes. However, overcrowding due to early/late/missing buses is a different phenomenon from peak-of-the-peak overcrowding, which seems to be a serious issue on certain SI express buses.

 

I mentioned artics because during part of the PM peak to SI you have X1s and X1 variants coming every two to three minutes to the point of MCI parades down in the Financial District and there's still some poor guy riding in the stairwell. Hell, I fanned the X1 a couple of times during rush and I was the guy in the stairwell. Not very comfortable. When frequency is that high I figure that part of the problem is demand simply outstripping seating space at certain times of the day and 70-80 seat buses vs. 50-seat buses would provide the necessary seating space during that time. The S93 suggestion was merely to give the buses a use outside peak-of-the-peak timeframes; the buses could just as easily run to Manhattan in the morning, on Manhattan artic routes like the M101-103 during the day, and then to SI during the evening peak.

 

The problem on Staten Island for the most part is that buses f*ck up often and a line like the X1 doesn't need much to become a mess. I missed the last X14 this morning and was trying to catch an X2 to Midtown but missed that too over on Hylan, so after letting one X1 pass by that was a bit crowded and late, I decided to take the following X1 that arrived about 2 minutes later which was crowded but still had seats. There was another X2 (the last one of the morning) scheduled for about 09:20, but that would've made me late to Midtown.

 

The does not run X1s any more frequently than every 4-5 minutes and instead runs its variants more to ensure better loading and has shortened the runs of the X1s where possible and I have to say that has worked out alright and has saved them money. However, if one of the variants f*ck up, some bus line is going to feel it and that is really the problem. Ridership can shift from one line to the next frequently, esp. when one line starts to mess up. X1s should not be running in packs, but they often do because of delays and X1s coming early or their variants screwing up. Some lines are very problematic like the X8 during the PM rush, along with the X5. Those people are then forced to ride crushloaded buses because the scheduled buses just don't show or come in packs. For the most part, the has enough scheduled express buses to meet demand, the issue is whether or not those buses come as they're supposed to and artics are not going to solve that problem if the buses still don't show up. What is needed is better supervision. There were times when I would take the X16 home and you would have an X16 scheduled every 30 minutes (say 16:00, then 16:30 and so on), which is certainly enough for the demand and 3 X16s would be MIA because they would put rookies or fillers on the line that didn't know the route.

 

We once had a dispatcher at the corner of Broadway and Worth and we're sitting there at the first stop waiting for the X16 and nothing and finally we learned that a few X16s had just not come down to Worth to start their run and basically bypassed us starting their runs further Downtown. :mad:

 

The dispatcher had one of the X16s pick us up on Broadway by Worth St (which wasn't the actual stop, but by that time he had called us over since no X16s had come for almost an hour and a half) and told the B/O to let us on for free, which was no big prize for me since I had an unlimited card. I have also seen drivers blow past stops (not on purpose) but simply because they don't know the route and where the stops are located and these types of things artics cannot solve. You need better supervision on these lines to ensure that scheduled buses are showing up accordingly and that drivers actually know the routes. I have helped a few B/Os do the old X13 Downtown Loop route because they didn't know it and I had no problem staying on for the entire time to help them, but these are the types of things that help routes get killed and force riders onto other lines, thus overcrowding them.

 

The X13 and X16 were chronic problems with these situations and you notice both lines no longer exist. Where did the ridership go? To other more reliable express bus lines like the X1, the X12, etc. The frequencies are good enough that if a bus is missing you'll feel it, but the wait won't be as long.

[engineerboy6561]

The problem on Staten Island for the most part is that buses f*ck up often and a line like the X1 doesn't need much to become a mess. I missed the last X14 this morning and was trying to catch an X2 to Midtown but missed that too over on Hylan, so after letting one X1 pass by that was a bit crowded and late, I decided to take the following X1 that arrived about 2 minutes later which was crowded but still had seats.

 

The does not run X1s any more frequently than every 4-5 minutes and instead runs its variants more to ensure better loading. However, if one the variants f*ck up, some bus line is going to feel it and that is really the problem. Ridership can shift from one line to the next frequently, esp. when one line starts to mess up. X1s should not be running in packs but they often do because of delays and X1s coming early or their variants screwing up. Some lines are very problematic like the X8 during the PM rush, along with the X5. Those people are then forced to ride crushloaded buses because the scheduled buses just don't show or come in packs. For the most part, the has enough scheduled express buses to meet demand, the issue is whether ot not those buses come as they're supposed to and artics are not going to solve that problem if the buses still don't show up. What is needed is better supervision. There were times when I would take the X16 home and you would have an X16 scheduled every 30 minutes (say 16:00, then 16:30 and so on), which is certainly enough for the demand and 3 X16s would be MIA because they would put rookies or fillers on the line that didn't know the route.

 

We once had a dispatcher at the corner of Broadway and Worth and we're sitting there at the first stop waiting for the X16 and nothing and finally we learned that a few X16s had just not come down to Worth to start their run and basically bypassed us starting their runs further Downtown. :mad:

 

The dispatcher had one of the X16s pick us up on Broadway by Worth St(which wasn't the actual stop, but by that time he had called us over since no X16s had come for almost an hour and a half) and told the B/O to let us on for free, which was no big prize for me since I had an unlimited card. I have also seen drivers blow past stops (not on purpose) but simply because they don't know the route and where the stops are located and these types of things artics cannot solve. You need better supervision on these lines to ensure that scheduled buses are showing up accordingly and that drivers actually know the routes. I have helped a few B/Os do the old X13 Downtown Loop route because they didn't know it and I had no problem staying on for the entire time to help them, but these are the types of things that help routes get killed and force riders onto other lines, thus overcrowding them.

 

The X13 and X16 were chronic problems with these situations and you notice both lines no longer exist. Where did the ridership go? To other more reliable express bus lines like the X1, the X12, etc. The frequencies are good enough that if a bus is missing you'll feel it, but the wait won't be as long.

 

Wow... I knew you guys had reliability issues, but three buses in a row screwing up? Worst I've ever had was an MIA and a late follower (on the Bx9 and on the Q50) and a rookie on the Bx10 who bypassed three or four stops because he got made a wrong turn at Sedgwick Av/Van Cortlandt Pk S and couldn't get beck on route until 238 St / Bailey Av.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Wow... I knew you guys had reliability issues, but three buses in a row screwing up? Worst I've ever had was an MIA and a late follower (on the Bx9 and on the Q50) and a rookie on the Bx10 who bypassed three or four stops because he got made a wrong turn at Sedgwick Av/Van Cortlandt Pk S and couldn't get beck on route until 238 St / Bailey Av.

 

Yeah, so our issue is more of a reliability problem than service and that's what most of the overcrowding is from. There are only a handful of lines that I would say should have artics like the S79 and maybe the S53 on some runs, although with some of the tight turns on the S53, I don't know if they could use artics. The late night and weekend overcrowding could be solved by just adding one bus here or there. For example, it would make sense on the X1 to have crowding on Sunday nights because they only have one X1 at 22:00 and then another one at 23:00, so all they need to do is add a bus or two and run the frequencies at every 30 minutes instead.

[qjtransitmaster]

1) OK, thanks for the info.

 

2) Look at the bus map; the S55 is a U-shaped route, cutting across Drumgoole Rd (the service road for Richmond Pkwy) about 2/3 of the way to the jail. If you send the S55 via Bayview/Amboy/Maguire/Drumgoole then something has to take over on Bloomingdale Av. If you extend it from the jail via Arthur Kill/Clay Pit/West Shore/Richmond you've just created a time-consuming and obnoxious detour for no good reason.3) That might be possible, but by the time we're talking sending a bus to Old Bridge we're talking about nearly doubling the route length from the Perth Amboy run. That sounds more like something an express bus should be doing than a regular local bus.

 

4) PNC is worse than Old Bridge; even if it's for only a few trips due to events those few buses are going to be essentially off the grid for a long time, and mostly carrying air to boot because nobody's going to want to sit on an MTA local bus from SI all the way out to PNC for events. Again, that should be handled by express buses rather than overstretched local buses.

 

The S54-57 will run with coaches for the PNC events and their routings in NJ are mostly on the highway anyway so they won't be making many stops anyway. Plus the local routes are short they will become jersey direct lines regionals. Those areas don't do well for local bus so that is why I extend em to NJ and turn em into regional buses.

 

The S55 will no longer serve the jail heck who wants to be on a but that goes to a jail anyway??? The S55 gets rerouted via englewood ave to bricktown mall before heading out to NJ. The former segment is replaced by extended S96 or 62/92 trips via rte 440 which replace S78's stupid extension they travel the same path as x22 before englewood ave. The S55's routing to the jail never caught on therefore is eliminated. S62/92 takes over bloomingdale road segment of s55 minus the jail for jail use S74 end of story.

[engineerboy6561]

The S54-57 will run with coaches for the PNC events and their routings in NJ are mostly on the highway anyway so they won't be making many stops anyway. Plus the local routes are short they will become jersey direct lines regionals. Those areas don't do well for local bus so that is why I extend em to NJ and turn em into regional buses.

 

The S55 will no longer serve the jail heck who wants to be on a but that goes to a jail anyway??? The S55 gets rerouted via englewood ave to bricktown mall before heading out to NJ. The former segment is replaced by extended S96 or 62/92 trips via rte 440 which replace S78's stupid extension they travel the same path as x22 before englewood ave. The S55's routing to the jail never caught on therefore is eliminated. S62/92 takes over bloomingdale road segment of s55 minus the jail for jail use S74 end of story.

 

So, just to clarify, you want to:

 

1) Send the S55 to the Rt. 120 Exit 9 Park & Ride by Cheesequake (red)

2) Send the S56 to the Old Bridge Park & Ride (green)

3) Use an S62/92 extension to cover the Bloomingdale Av portion of the S55 (blue)

 

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I don't really think that's a good idea. First off, sending buses out to mid-Jersey Park&Rides with long stints on the expressway is just asking for them to get bogged down in traffic, bunch, and otherwise alienate riders. I highly doubt you'd attract very many riders that way, and current S55/56 riders would have to deal with reliability issues, bunching, and other general crap that would turn them off the lines. Second, I'm not really sold on sending the S62/92 via the expressway. It might work, or it might not and i'd like to see scheduling improvements before we undertake any massive extesnions of exisitng routes.

[checkmatechamp13]

I think the plan of sending the S57 to Newark Penn Station is probably the best one I've heard lately. The S57 would become one of the most important lines on Staten Island. The S54 OTOH, should be running to St. George.

 

Under his plan, the S54 would replace the S66 along Jewett Avenue, which would place it closer to NJ and further from St. George. Of course, there becomes the issue of what would serve Grymes Hill.

 

1) I never said that artics belonged on all or even very many SI local routes; my point was that suburban-style artics would do very well making peak-direction trips on certain chronically overcrowded express bus lines (of which I only listed three; the X1, the X10, and the X17) so we no longer had people standing in MCI stairwells, which as a side effect would also deal with the problem of half-dead 1998-9 D4500s and DL3s (50 suburban artics could be used to displace 50 of the worst MCIs and still gain seating space), and then that these artics could run on perennially crowded local lines (the S53/93 and S79, for the most part) when not in use on express bus runs.

 

2) Second, I'd advise headway adjustments on routes that connect to the ferry (try 15-minute headways on some of the more problematic routes middays) to provide riders a buffer against traffic, operator error, etc. The reason I suggest this is this: If there is a bus to St. George every thirty minutes and a ferry departure every thirty minutes, then if it's early and you miss it or if it's all of five minutes late you now have half an hour's delay at the minimum. Now, if there's a bus to St. George every fifteen minutes and the ferry departs every thirty minutes, half the buses are offset. If you go to catch an offset bus and everything goes according to plan you arrive 15-20 minutes before the ferry leaves. If the offset bus is 10-15 minutes late you still make your ferry. If the offset bus runs hot, you catch the synchronized bus and you're none the worse for wear. If both buses run hot, you still make your ferry because you're in position to catch the "hot" synchronized bus. Thus, even if reliability of individual buses doesn't improve much the built-in cushion of the extra buses makes the whole thing reliable.

 

3) Third, I'd advise more comprehensive connections between Staten Island and both Brooklyn and New Jersey. From what I can tell most of the reliability issues on SI local buses are in some way tied to the ferry because the thirty-minute headways create a tremendous bottleneck and a great deal of potential for problems. LRT has its place in SI, but I figure it only needs to go as far as Port Richmond with a possible extension along the north shore to St. George. Also, any buses leaving SI should be new runs where feasible; I have a couple of proposals for new lines here. The Brooklyn ideas I've discussed at length a couple of other times so I won't take up space here with them. The green line represents a new line from the mall to the Perth Amboy commuter rail station via Amboy Rd/Annadale Rd, serving the medical center in Perth Amboy. During rush hour service would run to/from South Amboy instead (more frequent rail service there, ergo better connections), while the yellow line represents an extension of the S40/90 to the Elizabeth railway station in NJ. When the S90 is running S40s would terminate at Gulf/Western Avs, while S90s would serve the railway station. The S90s would also make one additional LTD stop at South Av/Forest Av before getting on the bridge. Also, try providing some S89 service (not shown here) middays and sometomes on weekends. The map's in Post#75 because I couldn't get it to show here.

 

1) One issue that could come up is that there is the chance that the buses would be dirtier as a result of being on the local routes, and the express riders wouldn't be happier.

 

I would agree with the idea, since if people are going to have to stand anyway, there might as well be some more space rather than a narrow aisle, as well as something to hold onto (rather than the overhead rack)

 

2) A lot of routes do run less than every 30 minutes during middays. Some run as frequently as every 12 minutes, and others run every 20 minutes. Off the top of my head, the only route running every 30 minutes is the S52.

 

3) Like I said, I'd prefer the S98 go to New Jersey. Forest Avenue needs the service more than Richmond Terrace, and it would serve a lot more people (and offer connections a bit easier)

 

And the West Shore Light Rail was supposed to travel down the MLK, SIE, and WSE, so there is demand for service. Here is the report: http://www.siedc.org/images/PDF/WSLRPhaseII_FINALREPORT.pdf

 

No need for the new perth amboy route my plan turns S56/55 into perth amboy routes with one to cheesquake for connections to academy with extensions to PNC 3 hours before events and 3 hours after. And the other to old bridge park and ride linking to NJT's 139 and many other NJT based routes. As for elizbeth if ur gonna do that ur better off extending NJT's 58 line to mariners harbor. Even though my NJT plan sends 58 to dover replacing NJT's 880's upper segment.

 

Heck NJT's 94 line can go to SI via 278 but I rather an MTA rte do that

 

I'd prefer that all routes going from NJ-SI be MTA routes, so I'd rather not see the 58 extended to Mariners' Harbor. I see more of the riders coming from SI rather than NJ.

 

I figure you're probably right about the overcrowding at night and I support 24/7 service on the most crowded SI express bus routes. Also, if you read the rest of my post I did say that step 1 of fixing SI bus service was to do a comprehensive reexamination and overhaul of schedules so that they more accurately match operators' runtimes. However, overcrowding due to early/late/missing buses is a different phenomenon from peak-of-the-peak overcrowding, which seems to be a serious issue on certain SI express buses.

 

I mentioned artics because during part of the PM peak to SI you have X1s and X1 variants coming every two to three minutes to the point of MCI parades down in the Financial District and there's still some poor guy riding in the stairwell. Hell, I fanned the X1 a couple of times during rush and I was the guy in the stairwell. Not very comfortable. When frequency is that high I figure that part of the problem is demand simply outstripping seating space at certain times of the day and 70-80 seat buses vs. 50-seat buses would provide the necessary seating space during that time. The S93 suggestion was merely to give the buses a use outside peak-of-the-peak timeframes; the buses could just as easily run to Manhattan in the morning, on Manhattan artic routes like the M101-103 during the day, and then to SI during the evening peak.

 

Yeah, the artic idea makes sense and can save the MTA some money in the process, while not really affecting the riders. The difference between 2-3 minutes and 4-5 minutes is trivial.

 

1) The S54-57 will run with coaches for the PNC events and their routings in NJ are mostly on the highway anyway so they won't be making many stops anyway. Plus the local routes are short they will become jersey direct lines regionals. Those areas don't do well for local bus so that is why I extend em to NJ and turn em into regional buses.

 

2) The S55 will no longer serve the jail heck who wants to be on a but that goes to a jail anyway??? The S55 gets rerouted via englewood ave to bricktown mall before heading out to NJ. The former segment is replaced by extended S96 or 62/92 trips via rte 440 which replace S78's stupid extension they travel the same path as x22 before englewood ave. The S55's routing to the jail never caught on therefore is eliminated. S62/92 takes over bloomingdale road segment of s55 minus the jail for jail use S74 end of story.

 

1) I don't see the need. Just run a special bus and charge a higher fare during events.

 

2) No. The West Shore Expressway can be a mess during rush hour, and S62 riders (and S46 riders) don't need to deal with that. A route should run down the WSE, but it should be a route specifically designed for that purpose.

 

So, just to clarify, you want to:

 

1) Send the S55 to the Rt. 120 Exit 9 Park & Ride by Cheesequake (red)

2) Send the S56 to the Old Bridge Park & Ride (green)

3) Use an S62/92 extension to cover the Bloomingdale Av portion of the S55 (blue)

 

map

 

I don't really think that's a good idea. First off, sending buses out to mid-Jersey Park&Rides with long stints on the expressway is just asking for them to get bogged down in traffic, bunch, and otherwise alienate riders. I highly doubt you'd attract very many riders that way, and current S55/56 riders would have to deal with reliability issues, bunching, and other general crap that would turn them off the lines. Second, I'm not really sold on sending the S62/92 via the expressway. It might work, or it might not and i'd like to see scheduling improvements before we undertake any massive extesnions of exisitng routes.

 

Yeah, the Perth Amboy train station would be sufficient for connections.

[qjtransitmaster]

So, just to clarify, you want to:

 

1) Send the S55 to the Rt. 120 Exit 9 Park & Ride by Cheesequake (red)

2) Send the S56 to the Old Bridge Park & Ride (green)

3) Use an S62/92 extension to cover the Bloomingdale Av portion of the S55 (blue)

 

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I don't really think that's a good idea. First off, sending buses out to mid-Jersey Park&Rides with long stints on the expressway is just asking for them to get bogged down in traffic, bunch, and otherwise alienate riders. I highly doubt you'd attract very many riders that way, and current S55/56 riders would have to deal with reliability issues, bunching, and other general crap that would turn them off the lines. Second, I'm not really sold on sending the S62/92 via the expressway. It might work, or it might not and i'd like to see scheduling improvements before we undertake any massive extesnions of exisitng routes.

 

yup and S62 also replaces S78 between bricktown and tottenville S78 returns to former self and terminal. I know there is a risk but the reward is much higher than the risk. The ridership potential is higher than the potential loss of riders. Cause it will reduce the need to drive to central southern NJ from SI. Plus those stints are very short don't be fooled by the map. The GSP is mostly very good. So to reduce the bunching problems that may occur there will be rush hour short turns that stay within staten island for S55/56 to keep the schedule going Thus eliminating the potential problems that will arrise from the extensions. My SI plan is tied to my NJ plan so many things in NJ will have to be set to amplify the effectiveness of the S55/56.

[qjtransitmaster]

Under his plan, the S54 would replace the S66 along Jewett Avenue, which would place it closer to NJ and further from St. George. Of course, there becomes the issue of what would serve Grymes Hill.

 

 

 

1) One issue that could come up is that there is the chance that the buses would be dirtier as a result of being on the local routes, and the express riders wouldn't be happier.

 

I would agree with the idea, since if people are going to have to stand anyway, there might as well be some more space rather than a narrow aisle, as well as something to hold onto (rather than the overhead rack)

 

2) A lot of routes do run less than every 30 minutes during middays. Some run as frequently as every 12 minutes, and others run every 20 minutes. Off the top of my head, the only route running every 30 minutes is the S52.

 

3) Like I said, I'd prefer the S98 go to New Jersey. Forest Avenue needs the service more than Richmond Terrace, and it would serve a lot more people (and offer connections a bit easier)

 

And the West Shore Light Rail was supposed to travel down the MLK, SIE, and WSE, so there is demand for service. Here is the report: http://www.siedc.org/images/PDF/WSLRPhaseII_FINALREPORT.pdf

 

 

 

I'd prefer that all routes going from NJ-SI be MTA routes, so I'd rather not see the 58 extended to Mariners' Harbor. I see more of the riders coming from SI rather than NJ.

 

 

 

Yeah, the artic idea makes sense and can save the MTA some money in the process, while not really affecting the riders. The difference between 2-3 minutes and 4-5 minutes is trivial.

 

 

 

1) I don't see the need. Just run a special bus and charge a higher fare during events.

 

2) No. The West Shore Expressway can be a mess during rush hour, and S62 riders (and S46 riders) don't need to deal with that. A route should run down the WSE, but it should be a route specifically designed for that purpose.

 

 

 

Yeah, the Perth Amboy train station would be sufficient for connections.

 

Grymes hill becomes S55 food S55 extends to that area via rockland ave and ocean terrance. Now ocean terrance gains bus service. Perth amboy train station is available via transfer to NJT 81 at bricktown or the outerbridge park and ride which will serve perth amboy and replace NJT 815 as well. The S55/56 going to old bridge and cheesquake give SI ppl access to long distance service connections that perth amboy doesn't provide. PPL gain rte 9 service via transfer to NJT 139 and other parts of central NJ based on my NJT plan.

 

By the way during rush S62 will have bidirectional short turns that DO NOT use the west shore expressway. S92 will serve it at rush.

[checkmatechamp13]

Grymes hill becomes S55 food S55 extends to that area via rockland ave and ocean terrance. Now ocean terrance gains bus service. Perth amboy train station is available via transfer to NJT 81 at bricktown or the outerbridge park and ride which will serve perth amboy and replace NJT 815 as well. The S55/56 going to old bridge and cheesquake give SI ppl access to long distance service connections that perth amboy doesn't provide. PPL gain rte 9 service via transfer to NJT 139 and other parts of central NJ based on my NJT plan.

 

By the way during rush S62 will have bidirectional short turns that DO NOT use the west shore expressway. S92 will serve it at rush.

 

You'd be overserving Victory Blvd if you sent the S62 all the way to Travis (and off-peak, you'd still have the problem of buses being delayed)

 

And Ocean Terrace doesn't need (and probably doesn't even want) any type of bus service, even if it's closed door. Something else would have to serve it.

 

Alright, I'll agree with extending the S56 to the bus terminals in Central NJ. A lot of the traffic problems would probably be on or near the Outerbridge.

[qjtransitmaster]

You'd be overserving Victory Blvd if you sent the S62 all the way to Travis (and off-peak, you'd still have the problem of buses being delayed)

 

And Ocean Terrace doesn't need (and probably doesn't even want) any type of bus service, even if it's closed door. Something else would have to serve it.

 

Alright, I'll agree with extending the S56 to the bus terminals in Central NJ. A lot of the traffic problems would probably be on or near the Outerbridge.

 

It's called side effects of keeping S62 on schedule to avoid 440 problems. Ocean terrance gains service as a side effect of the S55 serving grymes hill as that is the fastest routing to that area without duplication. So again it's just unintended consequences of improving overall service. Overserving victory will be the only way to keep S62 on time with the S92 on west shore expressway. As a result S92 becomes bidirectional. these are side effects of fixing SI service. Plus the habits on S54-57 are similar to express riders as these lines are more civilized than other local rtes hence why only these will go to NJ thus becoming very important routes. With X17 rerouted travel time to manhattan decreases and ridership increases plus MTA will not have to enhance S89 to provide full time service to bayonne instead using X17 runs at off peak.

[engineerboy6561]

Just an idea here; how about we create a centralized Google map showing all possible different service arrangements? It would start by showing current (July 2011) service patterns and then we could create new routes and modify existing ones until we have something most or all of us could agree on. It would make it easier for us to see what we were discussing (especially since grammar is far less of an issue on a map than in a written post). I'm currently creating it now; all I need is a PM with the Gmail address of anyone who wants in and I can authorize you to make changes as you see fit.

[checkmatechamp13]

It's called side effects of keeping S62 on schedule to avoid 440 problems. Ocean terrance gains service as a side effect of the S55 serving grymes hill as that is the fastest routing to that area without duplication. So again it's just unintended consequences of improving overall service. Overserving victory will be the only way to keep S62 on time with the S92 on west shore expressway. As a result S92 becomes bidirectional. these are side effects of fixing SI service. Plus the habits on S54-57 are similar to express riders as these lines are more civilized than other local rtes hence why only these will go to NJ thus becoming very important routes. With X17 rerouted travel time to manhattan decreases and ridership increases plus MTA will not have to enhance S89 to provide full time service to bayonne instead using X17 runs at off peak.

 

But there are 2 problems with your S55 plan:

 

1) The S55 would become too long, coming all the way from the South Shore to St. George.

 

2) Ocean Terrace doesn't want or need bus service.

 

I still don't see why so much service needs to be provided for Victory Blvd, when there is an alternative: The S82 bus I mentioned before.

 

Just an idea here; how about we create a centralized Google map showing all possible different service arrangements? It would start by showing current (July 2011) service patterns and then we could create new routes and modify existing ones until we have something most or all of us could agree on. It would make it easier for us to see what we were discussing (especially since grammar is far less of an issue on a map than in a written post). I'm currently creating it now; all I need is a PM with the Gmail address of anyone who wants in and I can authorize you to make changes as you see fit.

 

Would be be able to see all of the past versions of the map as we're editing it?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm sorry, but some of these ideas are just RIDICULOUS!! :mad: Do any of you realize how f*cked up the Goethals Bridge is already? The bridge is completely outdated and already suffers terribly from traffic trying to go over two little lanes on each side. Aside from that, how many friggin' buses are going to over this damn bridge?? :mad: I mean seriously, if you guys are going to make proposals you should go out and use the damn roads and stop with these ridiculous fantasy lines. I actually find it quite insulting just throwing out random ideas looking at a map. :mad: :tdown:

 

You already have the X17J, X22, X30 and X31 using the Goethals Bridge already during the rush along with a sh*tload of trucks, cars and so on and the backup on that bridge can be as bad as 20 minutes or more on a bad day and on a really bad day even worse because sometimes the bridge gets shut down. In that case those buses would have to re-routed around NJ which is an extremely long detour. I know first hand because I've experienced it, arriving home some two to two and a half hours later.

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm sorry, but some of these ideas are just RIDICULOUS!! :mad: Do any of you realize how f*cked up the Outerbridge is already? The bridge is completely outdated and already suffers terribly from traffic trying to go over two little lanes on each side. Aside from that, how many friggin' buses are going to over this damn bridge?? :mad: I mean seriously, if you guys are going to make proposals you should go out and use the damn roads and stop with these ridiculous fantasy lines. I actually find it quite insulting just throwing out random ideas looking at a map. :mad: :tdown:

 

You already have the X17J, X22, X30 and X31 using the Outerbridge already during the rush along with a sh*tload of trucks, cars and so on and the backup on that bridge can be as bad as 20 minutes or more on a bad day and on a really bad day even worse because sometimes the bridge gets shut down. In that case those buses would have to re-routed around NJ which is an extremely long detour. I know first hand because I've experienced it, arriving home some two to two and a half hours later.

 

They use the Goethals Bridge, not the Outerbridge.

 

In any case, there's nothing that can really be done. The only way to connect SI with Perth Amboy is by sending a route over the Outerbridge Crossing, and there are a limited number of routes that can go there (namely, the S56 or the S74 or S78 can be split at Richmond Avenue and sent over the Outerbridge)

 

I mean, what would you suggest? Maybe as a compromise it can only be alternate S56s (one every hour, or maybe service can be increased a bit) being sent over the Outerbridge, and alternate ones terminating at Tottenville High School.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They use the Goethals Bridge, not the Outerbridge.

 

In any case, there's nothing that can really be done. The only way to connect SI with Perth Amboy is by sending a route over the Outerbridge Crossing, and there are a limited number of routes that can go there (namely, the S56 or the S74 or S78 can be split at Richmond Avenue and sent over the Outerbridge)

 

I mean, what would you suggest? Maybe as a compromise it can only be alternate S56s (one every hour, or maybe service can be increased a bit) being sent over the Outerbridge, and alternate ones terminating at Tottenville High School.

 

Yeah well you know what I meant. I was so annoyed that I said the wrong bridge. :mad: Besides, it's not like the Outerbridge is that much better. I just don't see how sending a bunch of routes to NJ is supposed to improve reliability and why is there this obsession with increasing ridership by forcing them to go to NJ?? The whole point of the thread was to discuss how bus service could be improved. That doesn't mean that we need to send routes to NJ. It means discussing ways in actually improving the current service we already have FIRST. You're all sitting around talking about sending buses to NJ which is doing nothing but making service WORSE. You'll have increased expenses, delayed buses and annoyed people that will say f*ck it and not bother unless they absolutely have no other options. Tell me who is going to want to deal with the persistent traffic delays that plague those bridges on a local bus? It is tolerable on the express bus to a degree but you have folks on a local bus sitting in traffic for 20 - 30 minutes and you are not going to have a nice situation. If the bridge is shut down and those buses have to be re-routed on a packed bus then what? We're not talking about a short re-route either. You'd have buses that would be upwards of an hour or more being delayed.

[checkmatechamp13]

Yeah well you know what I meant. I was so annoyed that I said the wrong bridge. :mad: Besides, it's not like the Outerbridge is that much better. I just don't see how sending a bunch of routes to NJ is supposed to improve reliability and why is there this obsession with increasing ridership by forcing them to go to NJ?? The whole point of the thread was to discuss how bus service could be improved. That doesn't mean that we need to send routes to NJ. It means discussing ways in actually improving the current service we already have FIRST. You're all sitting around talking about sending buses to NJ which is doing nothing but making service WORSE. You'll have increased expenses, delayed buses and annoyed people that will say f*ck it and not bother unless they absolutely have no other options. Tell me who is going to want to deal with the persistent traffic delays that plague those bridges on a local bus? It is tolerable on the express bus to a degree but you have folks on a local bus sitting in traffic for 20 - 30 minutes and you are not going to have a nice situation. If the bridge is shut down and those buses have to be re-routed on a packed bus then what? We're not talking about a short re-route either. You'd have buses that would be upwards of an hour or more being delayed.

 

The point of the extensions is to increase ridership, which will hopefully lead to more service being added to meet demand.

 

I mean, think about it: The S56 is one of the most expensive (and lowest ridership) routes on SI. An extension to Perth Amboy could increase ridership to the point where service might run, say every 20 minutes instead of every 30 minutes. Not to mention that service is improved because of the direct connection to New Jersey.

 

I mean, the original issue we were discussing is low ridership, and as you know, high ridership and better service generally go hand-in-hand. I mean, the S48 is more crowded than the S54, but I think we can agree that service overall is better (the service is more frequent and it actually goes where the people want to go)

 

And like I said, a compromise can always be reached by short-turning some buses in Staten Island. My original proposals did just that (the S98 has the S48, the S89 has the Richmond Avenue routes, and the S56 would have some buses short-turn)

[B35 via Church]

I'm still bothered at the fact that the thought process in here so far seems to be:

 

better service for Staten Island's routes = having buses leave Staten Island.

 

that's why I'm not sayin much of anything here, and I notice via's been somewhat quiet before that rant of his too (esp. in a SI thread).... gettin too carried away w/ all this New Jersey talk.....

 

It's good that you want to expand the network, but you have to worry about actual service (not just the service area) within the borough first..... then & only then can you start talking about local service out to some newark airport, or elizabeth, or cheesequake rest stop, or perth amboy, or wherever else in NJ that was mentioned......

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The point of the extensions is to increase ridership, which will hopefully lead to more service being added to meet demand.

 

I mean, think about it: The S56 is one of the most expensive (and lowest ridership) routes on SI. An extension to Perth Amboy could increase ridership to the point where service might run, say every 20 minutes instead of every 30 minutes. Not to mention that service is improved because of the direct connection to New Jersey.

 

Well that's obvious, but it seems as if no one including you sadly enough is thinking about the repercussions of that. The biggest problem we have is UNRELIABILTY, so how in the world can you say that ridership will be increased when you'll have lines that are already unreliable become even worse?? :confused:

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm still bothered at the fact that the thought process in here so far seems to be:

 

better service for Staten Island's routes = having buses leave Staten Island.

 

that's why I'm not sayin much of anything here, and I notice via's been somewhat quiet before that rant of his too.... gettin too carried away w/ all this New Jersey talk.....

 

It's good that you want to expand the network, but you have to worry about service within the borough first..... then & only then can you start talking about local service out to some newark airport, or elizabeth, or cheesequake rest stop, or perth amboy, or wherever else in NJ that was mentioned......

 

But one of the problems on Staten Island is the lack of connections to other parts of the region. Sure, you can get to St. George from most neighborhoods in SI, but it's hard to get to Brooklyn and virtually impossible to go to NJ (outside of Bayonne, unless you want to travel via Manhattan or go through Bayonne/Jersey City)

 

Well that's obvious, but it seems as if no one including you sadly enough is thinking about the repercussions of that. The biggest problem we have is UNRELIABILTY, so how in the world can you say that ridership will be increased when you'll have lines that are already unreliable become even worse?? :confused:

 

Like I said, there would still be buses traveling within Staten Island to help keep reliability issues from becoming too bad. I mean, what else is there to say: There needs to be better monitoring of the routes, and the routes that would be extended in particular (considering the fact that they aren't too frequent).