Are any routes immune to short-turns? Subway and bus

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

Not counting shuttles are there any subway or bus routes in which ALL scheduled trips run the full length of the route? I would like to know which ones so I can come up with an accurate theory as to why short-turns are put in place.

[Cait Sith]

Not counting shuttles are there any subway or bus routes in which ALL scheduled trips run the full length of the route? I would like to know which ones so I can come up with an accurate theory as to why short-turns are put in place.

 

 

Some of the short-turns in the subway are necessary at times, like the to Union Turnpike and the to Canal Street and the to Kings Highway. Buses, you have to discuss that in the buses section. There is a reason why this is a subway section.

 

Hopefully some of the more knowledgeable rail-heads would comment.

[Shortline Bus]

Not counting shuttles are there any subway or bus routes in which ALL scheduled trips run the full length of the route? I would like to know which ones so I can come up with an accurate theory as to why short-turns are put in place.

 

If you asking if any subway routes currently runs it's 'full route' 24/7 or 7 days a week (for those that run daily from about 6am-Midnight) including rush hours, I would say only these lines without looking at a map. Feel free to correct me.

 

©168th St-Euclid.

(G)Court Sq-Church Ave.

(3)148th St-New Lots

 

I could be wrong but i think a few (1)'s during rush hours runs only between 137th-South Ferry and thus why i did not list it above.

 

My takes:confused:.

 

If you want to count this as well.

(Z)Jamaica Center-Broad St. (I know it's only a rush hour route)

[Amtrak7]

Not counting the shuttles, I think the only route w/o short turns is the .

[MikeGerald]

Take a look at the J and Z train schedule and you will see several Z-train put-ins from Eastern Parkway in the afternoon headed toward Manhattan. In addition to other short turns for the J and Z-trains.

 

One way to look at this issue is to review the various train schedules for the various tranis routes.

 

Mike

[MattTrain]

Here's my list of my short turns

1. Every weekday (specifically Rush hours) every other or every third originates or terminates at Kings Highway, because of capacity at Stillwell Avenue.
   
2. A few and (Q)s orginate or terminate at 57 Street due to Capacity limits at Astoria. I think some and (Q)s terminate at 42nd St.
   
3. Some service ends at Union Turnpike
   
4. Some terminate at Canal Street from Forest Hills
   

 

 

Lines I think that are immune to Short Turns. I think the and don't have any short turns in their schedules. The doesn't have any short turns either.

[INDman]

Lines I think that are immune to Short Turns. I think the and don't have any short turns in their schedules. The doesn't have any short turns either.

 

Doesn't the have drop outs at 111 that go to the yard?

 

I do think everyone is correct about the and being the only lines with out short turns. Hell, on the line the only place you really short turn a train is Bedford-Nostrand which isn't manned all the time and Nassau is only used during GO's.

[via White Plains Road]

Here's my list of my short turns

1. Every weekday (specifically Rush hours) every other or every third originates or terminates at Kings Highway, because of capacity at Stillwell Avenue.

2. A few and (Q)s orginate or terminate at 57 Street due to Capacity limits at Astoria. I think some and (Q)s terminate at 42nd St.

3. Some service ends at Union Turnpike

4. Some terminate at Canal Street from Forest Hills

 

 

Lines I think that are immune to Short Turns. I think the and don't have any short turns in their schedules. The doesn't have any short turns either.

 

Well the go to Kings Highway during mid-day hours IIRC. You'll have one or two (N)'s go to 57th Street-7th Avenue. (E)'s to Union Turnpike is only AM rush and three of them go to Jamaica-179th Street during the PM rush. Then you'll have some (2)'s (4)'s and (5)'s head to New Lots Avenue in the AM, PM and evening rush. Some's (2)'s and (5)'s start out of New Lots Avenue b/c of the capacity @ Utica and Flatbush Avenues!

[SubwayGuy]

In subways, short turns are necessary because from an ops planning standpoint, the most congested portions of a line (typically the middle) require more service than the terminal can feasibly handle without causing delays. So the addition of a second terminal (even if temporary) alleviates terminal congestion and allows for more frequent service at regular intervals along the most crowded corridors of the lines.

 

Why terminal procedure takes "so long"

Terminals can't just take trains in and send them right back out immediately. It takes a while to bring a train into a terminal (<10MPH if the terminal ends in a bumping block, and <10MPH even sooner if the train has to take a diverging switch route to get into the pocket). The conductor has to change position, open the doors, and leave them for the next crew. Then the crew must change (not always immediate), program automated announcements on NTT's, make a pre-departure "next stop" announcement (non NTT), T/O must recharge the train's brakes. While all of this is going on, the terminal dispatcher has to turn on the starting lights AND give the train a proper lineup to leave (meaning half the time, other trains trying to enter the terminal have to be held out to clear a path for the train leaving the terminal). Then the conductor has to close down, and the train can proceed. The train may have to cross a switch leaving the station to be on a proper track. This all takes time. Then the next train has to come in and do it all again. Most lines can't push a train out every few minutes consistently like this, so the addition of a second terminal (the "short turn") gives this procedure more time...as much as twice as much, which prevents terminal delays from carrying down the line and causing problems at the most crowded stations.

[TwoTimer]

The poster didn't ask what lines short turn as per schedule. They asked what lines have no short turns or short dropouts whatsoever no matter what time of day (except by service disruption).

 

That would be the and only.

 

Other close but no cigar contenders:

 

There is a interval in the PM that starts its trip at Bway-Laf. It goes up the line and goes in service there, to allow a window for the work trains to get out of 38th st yard at a time where Manhattan-bound ridership on the west end is very low (once PM rush ends there isn't anyone out there lol).

 

Besides Union Turnpike dropouts, the reason for some service to go to 179 is because of terminal capacity at Parsons (not enough stations and tunnel space after the split for trains to sit). Of course the one-seat ride to Hillside stations helps.

 

As mentioned earlier, all those put-ins from City Hall yard eliminates both the and .

[Noflexdont]

In subways, short turns are necessary because from an ops planning standpoint, the most congested portions of a line (typically the middle) require more service than the terminal can feasibly handle without causing delays. So the addition of a second terminal (even if temporary) alleviates terminal congestion and allows for more frequent service at regular intervals along the most crowded corridors of the lines.

 

Why terminal procedure takes "so long"

Terminals can't just take trains in and send them right back out immediately. It takes a while to bring a train into a terminal (<10MPH if the terminal ends in a bumping block, and <10MPH even sooner if the train has to take a diverging switch route to get into the pocket). The conductor has to change position, open the doors, and leave them for the next crew. Then the crew must change (not always immediate), program automated announcements on NTT's, make a pre-departure "next stop" announcement (non NTT), T/O must recharge the train's brakes. While all of this is going on, the terminal dispatcher has to turn on the starting lights AND give the train a proper lineup to leave (meaning half the time, other trains trying to enter the terminal have to be held out to clear a path for the train leaving the terminal). Then the conductor has to close down, and the train can proceed. The train may have to cross a switch leaving the station to be on a proper track. This all takes time. Then the next train has to come in and do it all again. Most lines can't push a train out every few minutes consistently like this, so the addition of a second terminal (the "short turn") gives this procedure more time...as much as twice as much, which prevents terminal delays from carrying down the line and causing problems at the most crowded stations.

 

Learn something today thanks!

[TwoTimer]

Just a note on the relay procedure, it can be quicker than a dump and recharge and pull it out the other way (It's how Continental can handle all that service with just two relay tracks). However, while all on here were gaga over the R68 , crews and supervision were disliking the change. Besides the more difficult OPTO operation of R68 (having to enable yourself), the R68 charges so slow that it delays trains waiting behind it even more than before. At least when the R46 equipment dominated the line, the train did not have to be dumped/recharged to change crews (easy removing a reverser, new t/o slides theirs in, and away ya go).

[SoSpectacular]

They recently started short turning the Q17 bus to Horace Harding/188th Street instead of going to Jamaica, only every few buses and the Limited does go there now

[MikeGerald]

Some D-trains short turn at the Bedford Park Blvd station in the Bronx, and at the Bay Parkway station in Brooklyn.

 

I believe that the difference with the C train, is that physically the train yard or train layup area is "north" of the terminal station. At 168th Street the layup trains are "north" of the terminal - so the train has to go to the end of the line - the 145th Street station is only a terminal on the lower level middle track, and the 125th Street requires switching trains across the express tracks to act as a terminal. On the southern end of the C-route, all C-trains head to Brooklyn, so World Trade Center is out as a terminal, and once the C-train is in Brooklyn (all of the other stations are problematic as terminals - switching across the express tracks) - Euclid Avenue is the terminal, with the train yard access "north" of the station.

 

Except for G.O.'s, there's really no reason not to run the G-trains the full-length of the route. Taking trains out of service at Church AVenue still means that the G-trains travel to the "end of the line". Even when G-trains were berthed at the Jamaica train yard, they had to pass all of the way through the Court Street station.

 

Just some notes.

Mike

[TwoTimer]

Yup, all about track geometry and layout.

[Amtrak7]

Oddly, the schedule makes no mention of:

 

-Late night QBL local service

-179 trips

-Union Tpk trips

 

At least short turns like Kings Hwy , Canal , Dyckman are in the schedule.

[FamousNYLover]

Some Queens-bound local in morning does short turn at Mets-Willets Point.

 

Buses:

N20 Great Neck Station or Rosyln-Mineola

M1/M2/M3/M4 Downtown 42nd St or 59th St. M2/M3/M5 26th St

M3 uptown St. Nicholas Av/125th St

M15 Local Downtown- Houston St

M4 uptown Broadway/135th St

M5 Downtown Broadway/135th St

Q33 94th St/23rd Av

Manhattan-bound M60 2nd Av/125th St

[Amtrak7]

LI Bus short turns (these are from memory, I probably missed a lot)

 

N1 Elmont

N1 Green Acres

N15 Hempstead

N16 Rockville Centre

N16 Hempstead

N19 Sunrise Mall

N20 Great Neck

N20 Mineola Av

N22 Mineola

N24 Mineola

N24 Roosevelt Field

N31/32 Lynbrook

N35 Roosevelt Field (or NCC?)

N48/N49 Hicksville

N48/N49 Bway Mall

N48/N49 NUMC

N50 Hicksville

N54 Sunrise Mall

N58 USMMA

N72 Rt 110

N79 Plainview

N79 Hicksville

N79 Roosevelt Field

[Abba]

Deleted

[SubwayGuy]

Doesn't the have drop outs at 111 that go to the yard?

 

I do think everyone is correct about the and being the only lines with out short turns. Hell, on the line the only place you really short turn a train is Bedford-Nostrand which isn't manned all the time and Nassau is only used during GO's.

 

Yeah the 7 has drop outs that go to the yard but from Willets Point. What you're probably thinking of is some of the put ins, which originate out of 111th.

 

The 7 also has some trains that scheduled end at Willets point with no layup (all during the AM). Those trains are generally in and out fairly quickly, but because the southbound (7x) uses 1 track to Willets Point, them sitting on M track doesn't cause a problem. All the PM trains to Willets point are layups.

 

To the other posters let's keep this on topic...buses go in the bus forum...

[GreatOne2k]

The and have no short turns

[SubwayGuy]

The and have no short turns

 

No...the 6 LINE has short turns when express service runs...6 local ends at Parkchester, 6 express to Pelham. There are also trains that end at 3rd Ave-138 St.

 

the 7 line, as mentioned in my post above, has trains that drop out at Willets Point

 

RTO does not distinguish between express and local service on these lines, for all intents and purposes expresses and locals on each are the same line because they are running off the same timetable.

[INDman]

Yeah the 7 has drop outs that go to the yard but from Willets Point. What you're probably thinking of is some of the put ins, which originate out of 111th.

 

The 7 also has some trains that scheduled end at Willets point with no layup (all during the AM). Those trains are generally in and out fairly quickly, but because the southbound (7x) uses 1 track to Willets Point, them sitting on M track doesn't cause a problem. All the PM trains to Willets point are layups.

 

To the other posters let's keep this on topic...buses go in the bus forum...

 

I think that at one time there were drop outs at 111th, but then again it's the IRT and that's like another world to me. I do have to say though, I have been getting very familiar with the Broadway Line between the Times Square spur and 103rd St.

[youngblaze]

Oddly, the schedule makes no mention of:

 

-Late night QBL local service

-179 trips

-Union Tpk trips

 

At least short turns like Kings Hwy , Canal , Dyckman are in the schedule.

 

Wow, I didn't know that the ran local late nights.

[TwoTimer]

Its been local for years with the express (I believe since the 63rd connection opened). If the is just doing shuttles in Brooklyn, and the shuttles to Myrtle, what else is going local on QB?