Jump to content
Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
Sign in to follow this  
Harry

Construction for 2nd Ave. subway digs grave for local busineses

Recommended Posts

Local politicians Saturday gave the MTA a "B" grade for its Second Ave. subway construction, but fed-up business owners and residents said the agency deserves an F.

 

The grade was part of an annual report on the massive East Side transit project released by Rep. Carolyn Maloney (D-Manhattan), who urged the agency to take more steps to meet its 2016 completion date.

 

The report listed progress in five of 11 categories, including project merit and construction job creation, but said the MTA needs to improve its planning and stay on budget and on time. Just last week the agency finished its first phase of tunneling.

 

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2011/09/25/2011-09-25_2nd_ave_subway_a_real_bad_trip_for_us_shops.html#ixzz1Z4GxR4HO

post-1-133288582652_thumb.jpg

post-1-133288582652_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not this old song and dance again. I hear about this more then I hear I'm on one on Hot 97. They can stop carrying on now, the worse part is over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not this old song and dance again. I hear about this more then I hear I'm on one on Hot 97. They can stop carrying on now, the worse part is over.

 

That's very easy for you to say. You're not running a business that you depend on to make ends meet. There was a nice Italian establishment that I used to frequent on 2nd Ave in the 80s that is now out of business and had been there for years. This mess won't be over until this project is done. The fact that we're in a recession now is just exacerbating the situation further. It's also terrible for the residents up there because that is or rather was a major commercial strip for them for eating and basic necessities. Yeah, we all know that the benefits of the 2nd Avenue subway, but that doesn't mean that we say f*ck off to everyone suffering through this mess in the process.

 

I actually have to admit that I have stopped frequenting the Upper East Side and Yorkville area mainly because of this mess. There are few restaurants and specialty stores up there that are quite nice like Agata & Valentina on 1st and 79th and I haven't been there in some time. They carry a great array of great Italian import delicacies and other goodies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well what do you people want? An overcrowded Lexington Avenue Line for decades to come, or a new subway line for future generations on the East Side?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well what do you people want? An overcrowded Lexington Avenue Line for decades to come, or a new subway line for future generations on the East Side?

 

The problem here has been the poor coordination of the project. The (MTA) has ravaged the Upper East Side/Yorkville area economically. The residents and businesses there deserve far better than what they've received. And you folks wonder why there are so many NIMBYs around.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Too bad, they should have thought of consequences before they agreed with construction plans of SAS, now they just got to suck it up and get on with their lives. Once again we live in capitalistic economy and it's expected of some businesses to fade and others to succeed. This is also why price tag is so high, because money aren't spent solely on construction efforts, they used to buy the land and compensate for owners potential gains, considering how expensive land in Manhattan is today and how densely area is populated, add up selfishness and greed and voila, billions upon billions of dollars. It's hard to have such massive construction going in well developed areas, especially in the US.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Too bad, they should have thought of consequences before they agreed with construction plans of SAS, now they just got to suck it up and get on with their lives. Once again we live in capitalistic economy and it's expected of some businesses to fade and others to succeed. This is also why price tag is so high, because money aren't spent solely on construction efforts, they used to buy the land and compensate for owners potential gains, considering how expensive land in Manhattan is today and how densely area is populated, add up selfishness and greed and voila, billions upon billions of dollars. It's hard to have such massive construction going in well developed areas, especially in the US.

 

I wonder if it would be "too bad" if this was happening in a poor neighborhood? It's "too bad" because it happens to be an area of wealth right? What you fail to realize is that it's the small businesses that make this country work and without small businesses the unemployment rate in this country will remain high. :mad: The effects of what is happening is from this Second Avenue debacle is being felt on so many levels.

 

The (MTA) should come to your area of Brooklyn and ravage the neighborhood there and see if you think it's still "too bad". You talk about it as if it's just fine to destroy businesses and families all because a subway has to be built, but it doesn't need to be properly planned so as to have as little impact as possible on the community. :tdown: :mad: The subway isn't the issue here. Poor planning is the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest lance25

1) The loss of a couple of mom-and-pop shops in a construction zone isn't going to make the difference between above 9% or below 9% unemployment.

 

2) How does one adequately plan for the building of a subway line underneath a road? Would you use imminent domain? Would you dig the tunnels and stations deeper under the avenue? No matter how you slice it, they have to dig underneath Second Avenue since that's where the subway will be. Yes, it's inconvenient right now because progress is so slow, but would you rather they tore through the neighborhood without a care for anyone, like their predecessors did when building the original subways?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest lance25

Yeah, and that will fly over real well...

 

You can't just give people chump change and then obliterate their neighborhoods like it's alright, even if it does help out in the long run. Shit like that usually leads to more discontent because it comes off as really not giving a damn about them.

 

Continuing my earlier thought, I realized that they are using deep-bore tunneling for the subway line. I have no clue why I thought otherwise. Anyhow, I don't think there's much more the (MTA) can do to mitigate the effects of this construction project. They're already working with businesses to bring shoppers to Second Avenue. They also don't work during the evening and overnight hours. What more do some of you want, them to stop construction entirely? Then nothing would get done and all you'll have is an increasingly overcrowded Lexington Avenue line.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1) The loss of a couple of mom-and-pop shops in a construction zone isn't going to make the difference between above 9% or below 9% unemployment.

 

And what is your definition of a "couple"? What you're not looking at is who those mom and pop stores buy from. The pain is felt well after the loss of some mom and pop stores. Clearly you just don't want to admit that. Sure they're a lot smaller, but the fact of the matter is mom and pop businesses make this country run and if we just say "oh well" and let numerous small businesses go out of business simply because we can't do a better job of helping them then there's a big problem there. What the (MTA) did was utterly ridiculous. The small businesses came to them asking for assistance because the construction was killing their businesses and in turn, the (MTA) took their sweet time doing anything to assist them when they were the ones causing the havoc to begin with. That is not the way that you help a community thrive when you're going in there knowing that they are already sacrificing a ton as it is. If this was some minority neighborhood or a poor neighborhood that the (MTA) did this to you would have Al Sharpton making a stink about it, and these folks have every right to be angry as well.

 

 

2) How does one adequately plan for the building of a subway line underneath a road? Would you use imminent domain? Would you dig the tunnels and stations deeper under the avenue? No matter how you slice it, they have to dig underneath Second Avenue since that's where the subway will be. Yes, it's inconvenient right now because progress is so slow, but would you rather they tore through the neighborhood without a care for anyone, like their predecessors did when building the original subways?

 

We're not talking about that. We're talking about how does one RESPOND to calls to assist small businesses that are being killed and helping them survive during the construction progress. The (MTA) is NOT a private company. It is a public company that is supposed to be around for the good of the public and how they've destroyed this community is an outrage. They only called themselves doing something to help these businesses well after it was too late and this could've been prevented by simply being more responsive quicker to the needs of the community.

 

Yeah, and that will fly over real well...

 

You can't just give people chump change and then obliterate their neighborhoods like it's alright, even if it does help out in the long run. Shit like that usually leads to more discontent because it comes off as really not giving a damn about them.

 

Continuing my earlier thought, I realized that they are using deep-bore tunneling for the subway line. I have no clue why I thought otherwise. Anyhow, I don't think there's much more the (MTA) can do to mitigate the effects of this construction project. They're already working with businesses to bring shoppers to Second Avenue. They also don't work during the evening and overnight hours. What more do some of you want, them to stop construction entirely? Then nothing would get done and all you'll have is an increasingly overcrowded Lexington Avenue line.

 

 

Yeah that's the whole problem... They're working with them after the fact, well after many businesses have gone under, so now it's a little too late. :)

 

When is it about the public for once and not about what the (MTA) wants? Yes, the community wanted a Second Avenue subway, but they also wanted some sort of organization and commitment from the start of working with them and they have failed miserably on that end. In fact it really wasn't until the media started reporting on all of these businesses going under that the (MTA) decided to do something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest lance25

We can go back and forth on how they've handled this until we're blue in the face (or until our fingers fall off), but that doesn't change the fact that the agency can't really do much to rectify what they've done before. It's not like they can reimburse the owners and employees of shuttered businesses. Anything of that nature would probably have to come from the state and we all know that isn't happening by any stretch of the imagination. The only real option is to continue with how they're handling the situation as they have been since last year or so.

 

And by the way, when I said a couple, I was speaking figuratively. It's not as though the entire island of Manhattan is being affected by construction on Second Avenue. The loss of businesses in that particular area, while devastating to owners and their families, will not tip the unemployment scale in any way whatsoever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We can go back and forth on how they've handled this until we're blue in the face (or until our fingers fall off), but that doesn't change the fact that the agency can't really do much to rectify what they've done before. It's not like they can reimburse the owners and employees of shuttered businesses. Anything of that nature would probably have to come from the state and we all know that isn't happening by any stretch of the imagination. The only real option is to continue with how they're handling the situation as they have been since last year or so.

 

And by the way, when I said a couple, I was speaking figuratively. It's not as though the entire island of Manhattan is being affected by construction on Second Avenue. The loss of businesses in that particular area, while devastating to owners and their families, will not tip the unemployment scale in any way whatsoever.

 

I beg to differ on that. If anything it will make matters worse. You've got businesses closing up there and nothing replacing them. I don't see how that doesn't effect the unemployment picture. It most certainly doesn't help a community when they've got shuttered businesses all around. It also has to be affecting property values in what is already a down market. Bad all around. If anything, the question is what will the (MTA) learn about this experience so that they don't screw over other communities like this going forward? This certainly won't be the last time that construction happens in a community by way of the (MTA) and there is yet another community in Brooklyn where construction is going on where a similar situation is happening with them not working with the community until the businesses are already on the brink of closing when they don't have to be because they were thriving until the (MTA) set up shop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wish we can still do it Robert Moses style. When people complain tear down their damn house. That is the way things ought to be done.

 

Bet you wouldn't be saying the same thing when they city decides to detonate your house for a project. Quit being ignorant and PLEASE think about what you say BEFORE you say it.

_______

 

At this moment, there is NOTHING the city can do about the businesses on Second Avenue. That DOESN'T make it fair for the businesses though. If you've ran a mom and pop business that was passed down for generations, and the SAS destroyed your customer base because of the conditions surrounding it, I don't think you'd be jumping for joy.

 

However, I really don't see an easy solution for this. We all know that the SAS is vital, but then again we don't want to see the destruction of businesses along Second Avenue. We can't just pay them money either because if the TA did that for every single business, they'd go bankrupt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I beg to differ on that. If anything it will make matters worse. You've got businesses closing up there and nothing replacing them. I don't see how that doesn't effect the unemployment picture. It most certainly doesn't help a community when they've got shuttered businesses all around. It also has to be affecting property values in what is already a down market. Bad all around. If anything, the question is what will the (MTA) learn about this experience so that they don't screw over other communities like this going forward? This certainly won't be the last time that construction happens in a community by way of the (MTA) and there is yet another community in Brooklyn where construction is going on where a similar situation is happening with them not working with the community until the businesses are already on the brink of closing when they don't have to be because they were thriving until the (MTA) set up shop.

 

Unemployment rates do not go up because in the big picture, those closures of small businesses on Second Avenue have no effect country wide, especially since mta gives jobs for workers all over the city. I won't be surpised if after few years after SAS opens and everything will be back to pre 2007, that the people will be praising the project, since inflow of people will increase and the value of property will climb to new heights. One just can't make an omlet without breaking some eggs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well what do you people want? An overcrowded Lexington Avenue Line for decades to come, or a new subway line for future generations on the East Side?

 

What future generation if the whole area goes bankrupt?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Unemployment rates do not go up because in the big picture, those closures of small businesses on Second Avenue have no effect country wide, especially since mta gives jobs for workers all over the city. I won't be surpised if after few years after SAS opens and everything will be back to pre 2007, that the people will be praising the project, since inflow of people will increase and the value of property will climb to new heights. One just can't make an omlet without breaking some eggs.

 

And you think the (MTA) supplies jobs to everybody in the city? If that's the case what do you attribute to the unemployment rate here in the city? New York still thrives on and needs small businesses. Talk to anybody and they'll tell you that the economy is still in the tank because small businesses aren't hiring. They're not talking about large agencies like the (MTA). Of course the (MTA) is important, but you are clearly underestimating the importance of small businesses, not only in this city but in the country.

 

You also seem to be assuming that we'll be out of this mess once the SAS is completed, which is most certainly not a given, especially considering how much debt the U.S. has now and the fact that banks aren't giving loans out so that small businesses can grow and hire more folks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And you think the (MTA) supplies jobs to everybody in the city? If that's the case what do you attribute to the unemployment rate here in the city? New York still thrives on and needs small businesses. Talk to anybody and they'll tell you that the economy is still in the tank because small businesses aren't hiring. They're not talking about large agencies like the (MTA). Of course the (MTA) is important, but you are clearly underestimating the importance of small businesses, not only in this city but in the country.

 

You also seem to be assuming that we'll be out of this mess once the SAS is completed, which is most certainly not a given, especially considering how much debt the U.S. has now and the fact that banks aren't giving loans out so that small businesses can grow and hire more folks.

 

While I am not trying to undermine the importance of small business, my argument is that few shops closed on Second Avenue, and it happens, while you make it sound like the end of the world. I bet the amount of businesses lost due to construction, isn't even as much as lost in one day, in the whole country. The businesses are closing, true, unemployment increases,true, anything You and I can do about it, NO.

 

Our economics is like a sine wave, has its ups and downs, whether it will be rising again or we have reached the end, I am not sure. But one thing I am sure is that there is Supply and Demand, and if now demand for stores or small business is not high along 2nd Ave., it will be one day, not today, nor in 5 years, but it will I can gurantee you that.

 

Well I agree that government, local and federal both should support smaller businesses, it shouldn't be to the point when they are nurtering them. It all comes down to who is running the business, not everyone could be businessman/businesswoman, just like college isn't for everybody.

 

Nothing personal, but I see no further point for this argument to continue, as we both expressed our opinions, they really can't and won't help anyone, no matter how hard we may dream about them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While I am not trying to undermine the importance of small business, my argument is that few shops closed on Second Avenue, and it happens, while you make it sound like the end of the world. I bet the amount of businesses lost due to construction, isn't even as much as lost in one day, in the whole country. The businesses are closing, true, unemployment increases,true, anything You and I can do about it, NO.

 

Our economics is like a sine wave, has its ups and downs, whether it will be rising again or we have reached the end, I am not sure. But one thing I am sure is that there is Supply and Demand, and if now demand for stores or small business is not high along 2nd Ave., it will be one day, not today, nor in 5 years, but it will I can gurantee you that.

 

Well I agree that government, local and federal both should support smaller businesses, it shouldn't be to the point when they are nurtering them. It all comes down to who is running the business, not everyone could be businessman/businesswoman, just like college isn't for everybody.

 

Nothing personal, but I see no further point for this argument to continue, as we both expressed our opinions, they really can't and won't help anyone, no matter how hard we may dream about them.

 

No, it isn't the end of the world, but it certainly doesn't help the situation. This isn't about nurturing. This is about basic things that they can do for the inconvenience that they're causing. As for the "few businesses" that have closed, many of them are hanging on by a thread. As for what we can do, we can pressure them to do what's right by the communities that they're inconveniencing by simply with working with from the start instead of waiting for businesses to go under and then implementing something that stands very little chance of helping.

Edited by Via Garibaldi 8
Typo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hopefully the ease of access once the line opens will help current bussineses and new ones grow and make up for the loss during construction. I work in a small bussiness and yeah, nowadays with no construction around where im at, it is hard we're actually looking at new locations.

 

 

and Via Garibaldi 8, its funny how you mention Agata & valentina, i ust to work there in '98. Its a very nice place. Glad to know its still there

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hopefully the ease of access once the line opens will help current bussineses and new ones grow and make up for the loss during construction. I work in a small bussiness and yeah, nowadays with no construction around where im at, it is hard we're actually looking at new locations.

 

 

and Via Garibaldi 8, its funny how you mention Agata & valentina, i ust to work there in '98. Its a very nice place. Glad to know its still there

 

Yeah, it's been a neighborhood staple since I can remember. Been going there since I was in early 20s. :cool: They have a place across the street which I have yet to eat in but maybe I'll go up there since fall is around the corner and I like taking excursions and walking around more as it gets cooler this way I can walk and not be all sweaty and such.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to add LA's expierence with our Red Line Subway, particularly when it reaches Hollywood Bl. During construction of the subway, Hollywood Bl literally sank, the stars on the ground had to be put into storage. It was an economic nightmare for Hollywood Bl. It was plagued with problems(in fact the entire project was plagued with problems) but all the areas around the stations are thriving with busy traffic.

 

Yes, some businesses closed, and the number of tourists sank, but look at Hollywood Bl now that the subway's been finished for 15 years. It has never been busier. It's thriving. It increased tourism even more because now you can take the subway, not just by shuttle or taxi.

 

I think that with 2nd Avenue, while it's pretty inevitable that some business will take a hit, after it's finish it's going to be even more busy than it is now. It's going to be prime reale state, even more than it is now. However, it will be sad to see some of those original stores, the stores that give NYC it's charm disappear.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When the first subway was being built in the early 1900's, local business's and residents complained about the dirt, noise, construction work, and the whole mess. Along Park Avenue South, across 42nd Street, and north along Broadway were the open trenches of the original IRT subway. Yes, it is an aspect of "cut and cover" subway construction that for a time period there will be "no cover". Was there accidents - YES. Was there the provision of many jobs during the construction for those doing the work? YES. Was there damages to buildings and property? Lots of it. Was there construction deaths and injuries, plus other deaths associated construction of the first subway? - Yes, not doubt about that. Were there job losses and closed businesses due to the construction - YES! Was the subway a success after the construction, and once the system was operational - YES!

 

There were complaints as the subways and the various extensions were built through out the city. It is the nature of people to complain. Now in fairness - have of the conditions noted above changed over the century? Well - fewer construction workers die building the subways these days. That is good. Except as I understand it - mainly the locations where the stations are located - most of the new Second Avenue subway was tunneled, instead of cut and cover construction.

 

Just keep the above in mind as you think about the new subway being built.

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Second Avenue will have to be the survival of the fittest. The toughest businesses will survive, and the weak ones will have to go.

 

Amen!

 

The strongest businesses that had strong customer bases to begin with will survive this and likely thrive afterwards, more than making up for the hell they are going through now.

 

Sure, some businesses will fall by the wayside, but it's possible even without the SAS construction some of them would have gone by the wayside anyway, as happens in ANY bad economy.

 

If nothing else, this serves as to how the MTA needs to improve sharply for Phase 3 of the SAS, which will go through midtown and lower Manhattan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.