Evaluation of the June 2010 Service Reductions

[checkmatechamp13]

By the way, I found this NY Times article (that switches the routes of the Bx26 and Bx28) that says that they wanted to reroute service in Co-Op City for a long time (the article is from 1994):

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/12/nyregion/neighborhood-report-north-bronx-first-surveys-then-plan-change-bus-routes-now.html?src=pm

 

Here's another one about them wanting to reduce service out in Nassau County back in 2000: http://www.nytimes.com/2000/03/29/nyregion/nassau-bus-riders-denounce-county-s-plan-to-cut-service-by-half.html?src=pm

 

Those cuts would've been pretty bad. The N72 would've gotten the axe.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1) Because the discussion was about the LES. Why bring up other routes/neighborhoods? Not to mention that I said "feel free to disagree", which was a disclaimer saying that I didn't ride those routes. (And why would I say that if I were making a general statement)

 

Like I said, if the area doesn't have a huge gap in service and buses aren't being constantly overcrowded and late, it wasn't hit that hard.

 

Well that's news to me because the thread clearly says "Evaluation of June 2010 cuts", which means that the thread is not specifically dealing with the LES and if it is then maybe it should be renamed.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1) Because the discussion was about the LES. Why bring up other routes/neighborhoods? Not to mention that I said "feel free to disagree", which was a disclaimer saying that I didn't ride those routes. (And why would I say that if I were making a general statement)

 

Like I said, if the area doesn't have a huge gap in service and buses aren't being constantly overcrowded and late, it wasn't hit that hard.

 

Well that's news to me because the thread clearly says "Evaluation of June 2010 cuts", which means that the thread is not specifically dealing with the LES and if it is then maybe it should be renamed.

[checkmatechamp13]

Well that's news to me because the thread clearly says "Evaluation of June 2010 cuts", which means that the thread is not specifically dealing with the LES and if it is then maybe it should be renamed.

 

But in the specific post I was referring to the LES. I wasn't saying "in every single case, people aren't being flagged or have excessive waits or walks to the bus stop". I was just saying that in the LES, that probably isn't the case (which is why I said "Correct me if I'm wrong").

 

Yeah, there are plenty of areas that fit my criteria of "hit hard by the reductions", but this isn't the case. In those areas, the MTA should've tried to strengthen the route so that the people in that area aren't left stranded. But in the LES (so there's no debate as to what I'm referring to), I don't feel that was the case.

[checkmatechamp13]

Well that's news to me because the thread clearly says "Evaluation of June 2010 cuts", which means that the thread is not specifically dealing with the LES and if it is then maybe it should be renamed.

 

But in the specific post I was referring to the LES. I wasn't saying "in every single case, people aren't being flagged or have excessive waits or walks to the bus stop". I was just saying that in the LES, that probably isn't the case (which is why I said "Correct me if I'm wrong").

 

Yeah, there are plenty of areas that fit my criteria of "hit hard by the reductions", but this isn't the case. In those areas, the MTA should've tried to strengthen the route so that the people in that area aren't left stranded. But in the LES (so there's no debate as to what I'm referring to), I don't feel that was the case.

[BrooklynBus]

Just noticed this thread but haven't read any of the posts yet.

 

Check this out.

 

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2011/10/mta-releases-evaluation-of-bus-service-cutbacks/#comments

[B35 via Church]

 

Elimination of the B48 south of Fulton Street appears to have been the worst failure by far with the route becoming less efficient on weekdays with the cost per passenger rising by 36 percent on weekdays and 25 percent on weekends.

 

In terms of amt. of riders affected/displaced, I have to agree with this.

 

The current B48 now reminds me of the (pre june 2010) B69..... this keeps up, over time, and it's gonna get to how bad B37's were.....

[AllenJ24]

In terms of amt. of riders affected/displaced, I have to agree with this.

 

The current B48 now reminds me of the (pre june 2010) B69..... this keeps up, over time, and it's gonna get to how bad B37's were.....

 

I use to ride the B48 before the June 2010 cuts. Now I have to walk because the don't get me where I needed go.

[BrooklynBus]

In terms of amt. of riders affected/displaced, I have to agree with this.

 

The current B48 now reminds me of the (pre june 2010) B69..... this keeps up, over time, and it's gonna get to how bad B37's were.....

 

Just another route they will eventually eliminate.

[Trainmaster5]

Just another route they will eventually eliminate.

 

I knew the B48 truncation was a failure when it was announced. It was obvious that many people were going to get screwed from Bed-Stuy to Prospect Park, both east and west of Franklin Ave. When they finish axing the B49 route from the Bed-Stuy area the job will be complete. Overnights there doesn't appear to be any north-south service between Flatbush Ave and Nostrand Ave south of Fulton St. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[BrooklynBus]

I knew the B48 truncation was a failure when it was announced. It was obvious that many people were going to get screwed from Bed-Stuy to Prospect Park, both east and west of Franklin Ave. When they finish axing the B49 route from the Bed-Stuy area the job will be complete. Overnights there doesn't appear to be any north-south service between Flatbush Ave and Nostrand Ave south of Fulton St. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I haven't checked recently but the B49 used to run hourly after midnight but for some strange reason it stops altogether around 4AM. Perhaps they found out a long time ago that it carried zero riders between 4 and 6 AM. But somehow that sounds too logical for the MTA.

[IRT Bronx Express]

By the way, I found this NY Times article (that switches the routes of the Bx26 and Bx28) that says that they wanted to reroute service in Co-Op City for a long time (the article is from 1994):

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/06/12/nyregion/neighborhood-report-north-bronx-first-surveys-then-plan-change-bus-routes-now.html?src=pm

Shocking.

 

Well, the MTA already reduced bus service in Co-op City, with the Bx30 partially serving the west side and the Bx38 serving all parts, except for Earhart Lane.

 

If the MTA implemented that plan in 1994, then the Bx26 would've served 2 branches at the same time (Bedford Park and Fordham Center). Maybe it would've been cut back to Bedford Park eventually since those going to Fordham took the Bx28 and not the Bx26.

[B35 via Church]

as of late, I am noticing more 49's with more people on em; both directions.... don't know what it's attributed to.... but it's still safe to say that the route is the least used out of all the others that run in this neighborhood (E. flatbush)....

 

I knew the B48 truncation was a failure when it was announced. It was obvious that many people were going to get screwed from Bed-Stuy to Prospect Park, both east and west of Franklin Ave. When they finish axing the B49 route from the Bed-Stuy area the job will be complete. Overnights there doesn't appear to be any north-south service between Flatbush Ave and Nostrand Ave south of Fulton St. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Nah, basically you're spot on....

 

....and yep, the majority of B48 riders took it b/w broadway & prospect park subway..... this idea of forcing more ppl. onto (S)'s, how is that workin out (not goin too well, is it... lol)...

 

Currently, the B48 is pretty much shunned now by bed stuy patrons.... when the B44 SBS' move on rogers, the B49 north of flatbush is gonna end up being viewed as being redundant (for the most part)... having things pan (planned) out that way, hell, they may as well have the 44 be the only route in that specific section of the neighborhood....

(Meaning, in-between the B69 on vandy {where there's no weekend service, mind you} & the B43 on throop/tompkins, the last man standing [outside of the ] will be the B44 - It is no accident they want to bring artics to brooklyn all of a sudden... Because they're gonna NEED them !)....

 

furthermore, all this will also affect williamsburg patrons too, b/w they really only want the B62 & the B43 out there....

 

 

In my area, I'm bombarded with high-ridership routes... it's no accident that there's as big a gap in service b/w:

- the B8 & the B35....

- the B44 & the B46 (that's moreso b/c of the cemetary, but still)

- the B35 & the B12 (over there on ENY/Utica)...

 

....right now, the B41 & the B49 are very close to each other... but let's see how long that's gonna last w/ the upcoming 44 SBS...

 

 

 

They already did damage down there in SW Brooklyn (w/ the 64 still intact, they're not finished either)....

Look at how hard express bus riders had to fight to revive their weekday x37/38 (although there's still no 27's/28 on weekends)....

 

Hate to put it like this, but y'all cats up there in Bed stuy better be prepared for such gaps in service (and even more crowded buses) in the future... How far in the future, remains to be seen..... I don't know what or how they're gonna f*** up service for y'all, but with the way things are lookin regarding the network here in brooklyn, y'all are next.... They're realizing that there are too many routes (which translates to too many buses) serving the borough....

[BrooklynBus]

Shocking.

 

Well, the MTA already reduced bus service in Co-op City, with the Bx30 partially serving the west side and the Bx38 serving all parts, except for Earhart Lane.

 

If the MTA implemented that plan in 1994, then the Bx26 would've served 2 branches at the same time (Bedford Park and Fordham Center). Maybe it would've been cut back to Bedford Park eventually since those going to Fordham took the Bx28 and not the Bx26.

 

This what I remember from that 1994 plan. It contained some features that the communities liked a lot, but a few that they absolutely hated. They asked for a few revisions, that the parts they didn't like be eliminated and they

would have accepted most of what was proposed. The MTA refused to make

even one single change. It was offered on a take it or leave it basis. All or

nothing. So they rejected everything although they liked most of the plan. The

study which I believe costed something like $250,000 was thoroughly wasted.

 

At the very same time a similar study was conducted in southern Brooklyn where the MTA first proposed flip flopping the B1/64, an F express and some other changes. Nothing resulted from that study either, wasting another $250,000. Add those amounts to what was wasted on their studies in the

1980s where no changes were made, (except for Bronx renumbering and

several changes there and two in Staten Island) and the total amount wasted was somewhere between $3 and $6 million.

 

After all those failed studies due to the MTA's own incompetence or stubbornness to compromise, they concluded that comprehensive studies cannot work and they will not do any more and will only plan incrementally. If that is true why was the comprehensive study i conducted at the Department of City Planning from 1974 to 1978 so successful that resulted in changes to over 8 routes? Because it wasn't conducted by the MTA.

 

 

Unlike the Bronx proposed changes which were rejected by the communities, I the MTA withdrew the 1993 Brooklyn changes on their own because of budget considerations, as they put it.

[Trainmaster5]

as of late, I am noticing more 49's with more people on em; both directions.... don't know what it's attributed to.... but it's still safe to say that the route is the least used out of all the others that run in this neighborhood (E. flatbush)....

 

 

Nah, basically you're spot on....

 

....and yep, the majority of B48 riders took it b/w broadway & prospect park subway..... this idea of forcing more ppl. onto (S)'s, how is that workin out (not goin too well, is it... lol)...

 

Currently, the B48 is pretty much shunned now by bed stuy patrons.... when the B44 SBS' move on rogers, the B49 north of flatbush is gonna end up being viewed as being redundant (for the most part)... having things pan (planned) out that way, hell, they may as well have the 44 be the only route in that specific section of the neighborhood....

(Meaning, in-between the B69 on vandy {where there's no weekend service, mind you} & the B43 on throop/tompkins, the last man standing [outside of the ] will be the B44 - It is no accident they want to bring artics to brooklyn all of a sudden... Because they're gonna NEED them !)....

 

furthermore, all this will also affect williamsburg patrons too, b/w they really only want the B62 & the B43 out there....

 

 

In my area, I'm bombarded with high-ridership routes... it's no accident that there's as big a gap in service b/w:

- the B8 & the B35....

- the B44 & the B46 (that's moreso b/c of the cemetary, but still)

- the B35 & the B12 (over there on ENY/Utica)...

 

....right now, the B41 & the B49 are very close to each other... but let's see how long that's gonna last w/ the upcoming 44 SBS...

 

 

 

 

 

Hate to put it like this, but y'all cats up there in Bed stuy better be prepared for such gaps in service (and even more crowded buses) in the future... How far in the future, remains to be seen..... I don't know what or how they're gonna f*** up service for y'all, but with the way things are lookin regarding the network here in brooklyn, y'all are next.... They're realizing that there are too many routes (which translates to too many buses) serving the borough....

 

It's really looking bad for the "do or die" crowd. It's sad because my older relatives used to say that Bed-Stuy had the best transit options in the borough as far as coverage went. Their experience goes back to the 1920's and 1930's before the demographic changes took place in the area. Back when Julia Waldbaum actually worked in the family grocery store on Dekalb Ave. They were the first to instill in my head that all change is not necessarily for the good. They were right.

That section of East Flatbush/Rugby has always been a puzzle to me. I don't know if it was because of Kings County and the state hospital on Clarkson and Holy Cross cemetary south of Church Ave that bus service ended up the way it did in that area. Maybe it was because the area was residential except for the hospitals and the cemetary. I know that before my time there was a Holy Cross cemetary bus route but that was it. Basically what you had was the B12 or B35 for east-west travel or a transfer to/from the B44 or B46 to go anywhere else or that still leaves some residents with a good shlep to a north-south route. You are still stuck with that option today. Maybe Brooklyn Bus could shed some light on how/why that came about.

[BrooklynBus]

 

In my area, I'm bombarded with high-ridership routes... it's no accident that there's as big a gap in service b/w:

- the B8 & the B35....

- the B44 & the B46 (that's moreso b/c of the cemetary, but still)

- the B35 & the B12 (over there on ENY/Utica)...

 

....right now, the B41 & the B49 are very close to each other... but let's see how long that's gonna last w/ the upcoming 44 SBS...

 

Hate to put it like this, but y'all cats up there in Bed stuy better be prepared for such gaps in service (and even more crowded buses) in the future... How far in the future, remains to be seen..... I don't know what or how they're gonna f*** up service for y'all, but with the way things are lookin regarding the network here in brooklyn, y'all are next.... They're realizing that there are too many routes (which translates to too many buses) serving the borough....

 

Again, B35, you are hitting all the problems on the nose. I've been suggesting routes to fill those service gaps for 40 years which I recognized when I was 15 back in the 1960s and realized that its because of those gaps why the routes you highlighted are so heavily used.

 

It's really looking bad for the "do or die" crowd. It's sad because my older relatives used to say that Bed-Stuy had the best transit options in the borough as far as coverage went. Their experience goes back to the 1920's and 1930's before the demographic changes took place in the area. Back when Julia Waldbaum actually worked in the family grocery store on Dekalb Ave. They were the first to instill in my head that all change is not necessarily for the good. They were right.

That section of East Flatbush/Rugby has always been a puzzle to me. I don't know if it was because of Kings County and the state hospital on Clarkson and Holy Cross cemetary south of Church Ave that bus service ended up the way it did in that area. Maybe it was because the area was residential except for the hospitals and the cemetary. I know that before my time there was a Holy Cross cemetary bus route but that was it. Basically what you had was the B12 or B35 for east-west travel or a transfer to/from the B44 or B46 to go anywhere else or that still leaves some residents with a good shlep to a north-south route. You are still stuck with that option today. Maybe Brooklyn Bus could shed some light on how/why that came about.

 

You bring up a subject which I care very much about. I spent my first 25 years in East Flatbush, the first 20 of which we had no access to a car and were entirely dependent on mass transit. I used and watched the B46, B12 and B35 all the time. I know the area like the back of my hand.

 

This is the answer to your question. Bus service in areas like East Flatbush and Borough Park are in such a mess because the routes were never planned. They developed incrementally. This is not what happened in Bed Stuy which has an excellent bus routing system. Bed Stuy's bus system except for a few recent changes is identical to the trolleys they replaced. When the trolleys came into existence, the area was already built up, so the trolleys which replaced the horsecars were all logically laid out in a grid system.

 

That wasn't the case in the other areas I mentioned which were developed after the automobile started started becoming popular. East Flatbush wasn't largely developed until after World War II. It was 50% farmland before. PS 268 was built in 1953 on a former pig farm. Until the 1930s, the only routes serving the area were the trolley lines, the B35 connecting Brownsville and Flatbush and happening to pass through East Flatbush with the small community of Rugby near Utica Avenue and the B46 connecting Crown Heights with small communities in Flatlands, now called Old Mill Basin. Again aside from Rugby, the area was mostly undeveloped. I still remember many vacant lots in my youth.

 

Since no new trolley lines were constructed after the 1920s because of the rise of the automobile, illegal jitneys carrying 20 passengers each started popping up all over to fill the gaps where there were no trolleys much like todays dollar vans. These jitneys were eventually given franchises and legalized and larger vehicles started to be used over the years. The B14 was one such route operated by the Brownsville and East NY bus Corporation. All these companies eventually became part of the BRT, the BQT, the BMT and later the NYCTA. These bus routes evolved one at a time independent of each other with no planning.

 

I mentioned elsewhere that the same was true for the Nostrand and Rogers Avenue trolleys which were operated by two separate competing companies which is why they were built only one block apart.

 

Much of Borough Park was built before WW II, but there the problem was 13th Avenue which had no bridge over over the Sea Beach tracks until 1934 when businessman Dominick Sabato fought for and got that bridge built. The problem was that the B16, originally a bus route, started several years before and Maimonides Hospital. then known as Israel Zion (I believe) was just one small building, and nowhere as important as it is today. That was the reason for the shift in the B16 from 13th Avenue which was fully developed, to Ft Hamilton Parkway which was also fully developed. There was no way to continue straight along 13th Avenue and even if there was, there wasn't that much there anyway because the area was just started getting developed. So at that time the routing of the B16 made perfect sense. Now that entire Brooklyn is fully developed and Maimonides is a major attraction that attracts employees and users from the entire borough. It makes just as much sense today to have a grid system of bus routes there as it did in Bed-Stuy back around 1900.

 

The problem is that no one has or is doing any real planning to serve the needs of the people. In the 1930s when the bus system was young there was a hell of a lot of rerouting and combining routes to make them function better. The B8 was a combination of the 8 and 10, The B6 originally used Avenue M and I think it was the first B21 that started at Bay Parkway and 60th Street and used Avenue J until it was merged into the B6.

 

When the NYCTA took over in 1953, they just left everything the way it was and rarely made any changes. Heck, it took them 50 years to update the transfer policy so that situations like the B35 transferring to the B49 but an extra fare for the B12 ended. The B12 transferred for the B46 only in two directions and an extra fare for the other two while it was an extra fare for the B35.

 

There was no desire back in 1953 to fill the gaps in service by correcting the situation in Borough Park or the gaps in service in East Flatbush. The gap between the B44 and B46 is partially due to the cemetery and hospital. The one along Empire Blvd and on the portion of Clarkson Avenue without any bus route is due to the fact that the reason the Kingston-Throop trolley diverted west along Empire Boulevard was to have a direct connection from Williamsburg to Ebbets Field. There was nothing along the Eastern portion of Malbone St (Empire Blvd) at the time and no need for a trolley. The B12, originally a bus line diverted south to serve Kings County Hospital which was the borough's main Hospital at the time, unlike Maimonides which was a small institution. Service on the eastern portion of Clarkson Avenue didn't begin until 1966 with the B78 which served the Sutter Avenue Station because the southern portion was of Ralph Avenue was first starting to be developed.

 

You were now left with gaps on Empire Blvd, Clarkson Avenue, 13th Avenue, Fort Hamilton Parkway and along the southern portion of Albany Avenue which no one has ever addressed. These make the system slow, and indirect with transferring difficult in many locations. I lived near Utica Avenue and Rutland Road and we could not easily get to the carousel in Prospect Park or the 71st Precinct at Empire and NY Avenue, so we ended up walking up to three miles. Look at a bus map today and see how difficult it is to make those types of trips. Although the communities have changed somewhat over the years, people still need to get to the same places and can't easily do it.

 

Unfortunately as B35 already pointed out, with the MTA's emphasis on cutting and not on cultivating ridership these problems will not only remain, the situation is most likely to get worse with the MTA seeking to concentrate routes. With the B44 SBS connecting with the B38 and not the B52, passengers will be diverted from the B52 to the B32. When the B46 becomes SBS, it will also not connect with the B52 drawing more passengers from it. So service gets cut on the 52 and added to the 38 as part of the routine service adjustments. Soon the B52 operates every 20 minutes at all times and the 38 operates every 7 minutes. Which route would you take? Then the B52 service is discontinued on weekends, and a few years later discontinued altogether. It is now 2020. The same thing then happens to north-south non SBS routes. Bed-Stuy which once had a great service is now screwed and the old service gaps from the 1930s still remain.

 

This folks is the MTA's way of planning. Sorry for the long rant. But you touched a subject most dear to my heart.

[qjtransitmaster]

as of late, I am noticing more 49's with more people on em; both directions.... don't know what it's attributed to.... but it's still safe to say that the route is the least used out of all the others that run in this neighborhood (E. flatbush)....

 

 

Nah, basically you're spot on....

 

....and yep, the majority of B48 riders took it b/w broadway & prospect park subway..... this idea of forcing more ppl. onto (S)'s, how is that workin out (not goin too well, is it... lol)...

 

Currently, the B48 is pretty much shunned now by bed stuy patrons.... when the B44 SBS' move on rogers, the B49 north of flatbush is gonna end up being viewed as being redundant (for the most part)... having things pan (planned) out that way, hell, they may as well have the 44 be the only route in that specific section of the neighborhood....

(Meaning, in-between the B69 on vandy {where there's no weekend service, mind you} & the B43 on throop/tompkins, the last man standing [outside of the ] will be the B44 - It is no accident they want to bring artics to brooklyn all of a sudden... Because they're gonna NEED them !)....

 

furthermore, all this will also affect williamsburg patrons too, b/w they really only want the B62 & the B43 out there....

 

 

In my area, I'm bombarded with high-ridership routes... it's no accident that there's as big a gap in service b/w:

- the B8 & the B35....

- the B44 & the B46 (that's moreso b/c of the cemetary, but still)

- the B35 & the B12 (over there on ENY/Utica)...

 

....right now, the B41 & the B49 are very close to each other... but let's see how long that's gonna last w/ the upcoming 44 SBS...

 

 

 

They already did damage down there in SW Brooklyn (w/ the 64 still intact, they're not finished either)....

Look at how hard express bus riders had to fight to revive their weekday x37/38 (although there's still no 27's/28 on weekends)....

 

Hate to put it like this, but y'all cats up there in Bed stuy better be prepared for such gaps in service (and even more crowded buses) in the future... How far in the future, remains to be seen..... I don't know what or how they're gonna f*** up service for y'all, but with the way things are lookin regarding the network here in brooklyn, y'all are next.... They're realizing that there are too many routes (which translates to too many buses) serving the borough....

hmm interesting instead of nuking B49 north of the area why not make bus service on bedford ave bidirectional thus making B49 different from B44 SBS blocking B49 from being removed.

Again, B35, you are hitting all the problems on the nose. I've been suggesting routes to fill those service gaps for 40 years which I recognized when I was 15 back in the 1960s and realized that its because of those gaps why the routes you highlighted are so heavily used.

 

 

 

You bring up a subject which I care very much about. I spent my first 25 years in East Flatbush, the first 20 of which we had no access to a car and were entirely dependent on mass transit. I used and watched the B46, B12 and B35 all the time. I know the area like the back of my hand.

 

This is the answer to your question. Bus service in areas like East Flatbush and Borough Park are in such a mess because the routes were never planned. They developed incrementally. This is not what happened in Bed Stuy which has an excellent bus routing system. Bed Stuy's bus system except for a few recent changes is identical to the trolleys they replaced. When the trolleys came into existence, the area was already built up, so the trolleys which replaced the horsecars were all logically laid out in a grid system.

 

That wasn't the case in the other areas I mentioned which were developed after the automobile started started becoming popular. East Flatbush wasn't largely developed until after World War II. It was 50% farmland before. PS 268 was built in 1953 on a former pig farm. Until the 1930s, the only routes serving the area were the trolley lines, the B35 connecting Brownsville and Flatbush and happening to pass through East Flatbush with the small community of Rugby near Utica Avenue and the B46 connecting Crown Heights with small communities in Flatlands, now called Old Mill Basin. Again aside from Rugby, the area was mostly undeveloped. I still remember many vacant lots in my youth.

 

Since no new trolley lines were constructed after the 1920s because of the rise of the automobile, illegal jitneys carrying 20 passengers each started popping up all over to fill the gaps where there were no trolleys much like todays dollar vans. These jitneys were eventually given franchises and legalized and larger vehicles started to be used over the years. The B14 was one such route operated by the Brownsville and East NY bus Corporation. All these companies eventually became part of the BRT, the BQT, the BMT and later the NYCTA. These bus routes evolved one at a time independent of each other with no planning.

 

I mentioned elsewhere that the same was true for the Nostrand and Rogers Avenue trolleys which were operated by two separate competing companies which is why they were built only one block apart.

 

Much of Borough Park was built before WW II, but there the problem was 13th Avenue which had no bridge over over the Sea Beach tracks until 1934 when businessman Dominick Sabato fought for and got that bridge built. The problem was that the B16, originally a bus route, started several years before and Maimonides Hospital. then known as Israel Zion (I believe) was just one small building, and nowhere as important as it is today. That was the reason for the shift in the B16 from 13th Avenue which was fully developed, to Ft Hamilton Parkway which was also fully developed. There was no way to continue straight along 13th Avenue and even if there was, there wasn't that much there anyway because the area was just started getting developed. So at that time the routing of the B16 made perfect sense. Now that entire Brooklyn is fully developed and Maimonides is a major attraction that attracts employees and users from the entire borough. It makes just as much sense today to have a grid system of bus routes there as it did in Bed-Stuy back around 1900.

 

The problem is that no one has or is doing any real planning to serve the needs of the people. In the 1930s when the bus system was young there was a hell of a lot of rerouting and combining routes to make them function better. The B8 was a combination of the 8 and 10, The B6 originally used Avenue M and I think it was the first B21 that started at Bay Parkway and 60th Street and used Avenue J until it was merged into the B6.

 

When the NYCTA took over in 1953, they just left everything the way it was and rarely made any changes. Heck, it took them 50 years to update the transfer policy so that situations like the B35 transferring to the B49 but an extra fare for the B12 ended. The B12 transferred for the B46 only in two directions and an extra fare for the other two while it was an extra fare for the B35.

 

There was no desire back in 1953 to fill the gaps in service by correcting the situation in Borough Park or the gaps in service in East Flatbush. The gap between the B44 and B46 is partially due to the cemetery and hospital. The one along Empire Blvd and on the portion of Clarkson Avenue without any bus route is due to the fact that the reason the Kingston-Throop trolley diverted west along Empire Boulevard was to have a direct connection from Williamsburg to Ebbets Field. There was nothing along the Eastern portion of Malbone St (Empire Blvd) at the time and no need for a trolley. The B12, originally a bus line diverted south to serve Kings County Hospital which was the borough's main Hospital at the time, unlike Maimonides which was a small institution. Service on the eastern portion of Clarkson Avenue didn't begin until 1966 with the B78 which served the Sutter Avenue Station because the southern portion was of Ralph Avenue was first starting to be developed.

 

You were now left with gaps on Empire Blvd, Clarkson Avenue, 13th Avenue, Fort Hamilton Parkway and along the southern portion of Albany Avenue which no one has ever addressed. These make the system slow, and indirect with transferring difficult in many locations. I lived near Utica Avenue and Rutland Road and we could not easily get to the carousel in Prospect Park or the 71st Precinct at Empire and NY Avenue, so we ended up walking up to three miles. Look at a bus map today and see how difficult it is to make those types of trips. Although the communities have changed somewhat over the years, people still need to get to the same places and can't easily do it.

 

Unfortunately as B35 already pointed out, with the MTA's emphasis on cutting and not on cultivating ridership these problems will not only remain, the situation is most likely to get worse with the MTA seeking to concentrate routes. With the B44 SBS connecting with the B38 and not the B52, passengers will be diverted from the B52 to the B32. When the B46 becomes SBS, it will also not connect with the B52 drawing more passengers from it. So service gets cut on the 52 and added to the 38 as part of the routine service adjustments. Soon the B52 operates every 20 minutes at all times and the 38 operates every 7 minutes. Which route would you take? Then the B52 service is discontinued on weekends, and a few years later discontinued altogether. It is now 2020. The same thing then happens to north-south non SBS routes. Bed-Stuy which once had a great service is now screwed and the old service gaps from the 1930s still remain.

 

This folks is the MTA's way of planning. Sorry for the long rant. But you touched a subject most dear to my heart.

 

OK but what do you plan to do about it?? The reason why I am not getting into this is cause it's not my focus area. I don't do short range planning. I am more observant of intercity suburban medium range routing. I am kinda useless for brooklyn bus planning sorry.

[IRT Bronx Express]

This what I remember from that 1994 plan. It contained some features that the communities liked a lot, but a few that they absolutely hated. They asked for a few revisions, that the parts they didn't like be eliminated and they

would have accepted most of what was proposed. The MTA refused to make

even one single change. It was offered on a take it or leave it basis. All or

nothing. So they rejected everything although they liked most of the plan. The

study which I believe costed something like $250,000 was thoroughly wasted.

I recall reading somewhere that the MTA proposed to reroute the Bx26 or Bx28 out of Co-op City and send one of the routes to Bay Plaza (sort of like today's Bx38). Was that the original plan? If not, what were the plans?

[BrooklynBus]

hmm interesting instead of nuking B49 north of the area why not make bus service on bedford ave bidirectional thus making B49 different from B44 SBS blocking B49 from being removed.

 

Because without also moving the B44 local, there would be no local service on Rogers Avenue.

 

OK but what do you plan to do about it?

 

The only thing I can do is to educate people so the younger people on this forum like B35 Via Church who also sees what is happening can organize people into standing up to the MTA by educating other bus riders out there to prevent the future we see from becoming reality.

 

I recall reading somewhere that the MTA proposed to reroute the Bx26 or Bx28 out of Co-op City and send one of the routes to Bay Plaza (sort of like today's Bx38). Was that the original plan? If not, what were the plans?

 

I am sorry but I do not recollect the specific proposals and I don't think I have them written down anywhere. All I know is what I already stated.

[qjtransitmaster]

Because without also moving the B44 local, there would be no local service on Rogers Avenue.

 

 

 

The only thing I can do is to educate people so the younger people on this forum like B35 Via Church who also sees what is happening can organize people into standing up to the MTA by educating other bus riders out there to prevent the future we see from becoming reality.

 

 

 

I am sorry but I do not recollect the specific proposals and I don't think I have them written down anywhere. All I know is what I already stated.

OK brooklynbus do you know anyone who does planning other than short range

[Cait Sith]

ok let B35 handle MTA I will handle lower hudson valley and NJ and LI.

I don't know enough about NYC local buses to really put up a fight against MTA. Also how do I know some of my ideas make sense well if they didn't I would not have been asked for a business card by transit staff. No one is perfect nor am I I radically updated my plans to manipulate rtes to become too strong to cut. However I don't know if that same strategy would work in NYC local lines outside SI. I do traffic data analysis and other measures to perfect any proposal I make so the ones I have now are very feasable and easy to make. The theme revenue manipulation of routes. And ridership manipulation.

 

1. They have nothing to do with this discussion, dont start the bullshit in any of these topics.

 

2. I find that to be amazing, unless they were drunk or high....

[qjtransitmaster]

1. They have nothing to do with this discussion, dont start the bullshit in any of these topics.

 

2. I find that to be amazing, unless they were drunk or high....

 

SORRY I was joking man calm down I will kill it get off my back if you will say somthing that is rude don't even bother saying it you have no idea what I even mentioned there so again you are just being arrogant stop and stop harrasing me ok plz stop I have not attacked you so leave me alone.

[qjtransitmaster]

1. They have nothing to do with this discussion, dont start the bullshit in any of these topics.

 

2. I find that to be amazing, unless they were drunk or high....

 

The transit guy was not MTA related no lies I never made a proposal to MTA ever. It was in NJ where that happened. Also one person begged me to submit a proposal however I had to restructure it first.

[Trainmaster5]

Again, B35, you are hitting all the problems on the nose. I've been suggesting routes to fill those service gaps for 40 years which I recognized when I was 15 back in the 1960s and realized that its because of those gaps why the routes you highlighted are so heavily used.

 

 

 

You bring up a subject which I care very much about. I spent my first 25 years in East Flatbush, the first 20 of which we had no access to a car and were entirely dependent on mass transit. I used and watched the B46, B12 and B35 all the time. I know the area like the back of my hand.

 

This is the answer to your question. Bus service in areas like East Flatbush and Borough Park are in such a mess because the routes were never planned. They developed incrementally. This is not what happened in Bed Stuy which has an excellent bus routing system. Bed Stuy's bus system except for a few recent changes is identical to the trolleys they replaced. When the trolleys came into existence, the area was already built up, so the trolleys which replaced the horsecars were all logically laid out in a grid system.

 

That wasn't the case in the other areas I mentioned which were developed after the automobile started started becoming popular. East Flatbush wasn't largely developed until after World War II. It was 50% farmland before. PS 268 was built in 1953 on a former pig farm. Until the 1930s, the only routes serving the area were the trolley lines, the B35 connecting Brownsville and Flatbush and happening to pass through East Flatbush with the small community of Rugby near Utica Avenue and the B46 connecting Crown Heights with small communities in Flatlands, now called Old Mill Basin. Again aside from Rugby, the area was mostly undeveloped. I still remember many vacant lots in my youth.

 

Since no new trolley lines were constructed after the 1920s because of the rise of the automobile, illegal jitneys carrying 20 passengers each started popping up all over to fill the gaps where there were no trolleys much like todays dollar vans. These jitneys were eventually given franchises and legalized and larger vehicles started to be used over the years. The B14 was one such route operated by the Brownsville and East NY bus Corporation. All these companies eventually became part of the BRT, the BQT, the BMT and later the NYCTA. These bus routes evolved one at a time independent of each other with no planning.

 

I mentioned elsewhere that the same was true for the Nostrand and Rogers Avenue trolleys which were operated by two separate competing companies which is why they were built only one block apart.

 

 

 

The problem is that no one has or is doing any real planning to serve the needs of the people. In the 1930s when the bus system was young there was a hell of a lot of rerouting and combining routes to make them function better. The B8 was a combination of the 8 and 10, The B6 originally used Avenue M and I think it was the first B21 that started at Bay Parkway and 60th Street and used Avenue J until it was merged into the B6.

 

When the NYCTA took over in 1953, they just left everything the way it was and rarely made any changes. Heck, it took them 50 years to update the transfer policy so that situations like the B35 transferring to the B49 but an extra fare for the B12 ended. The B12 transferred for the B46 only in two directions and an extra fare for the other two while it was an extra fare for the B35.

 

There was no desire back in 1953 to fill the gaps in service by correcting the situation in Borough Park or the gaps in service in East Flatbush. The gap between the B44 and B46 is partially due to the cemetery and hospital. The one along Empire Blvd and on the portion of Clarkson Avenue without any bus route is due to the fact that the reason the Kingston-Throop trolley diverted west along Empire Boulevard was to have a direct connection from Williamsburg to Ebbets Field. There was nothing along the Eastern portion of Malbone St (Empire Blvd) at the time and no need for a trolley. The B12, originally a bus line diverted south to serve Kings County Hospital which was the borough's main Hospital at the time, unlike Maimonides which was a small institution. Service on the eastern portion of Clarkson Avenue didn't begin until 1966 with the B78 which served the Sutter Avenue Station because the southern portion was of Ralph Avenue was first starting to be developed.

 

You were now left with gaps on Empire Blvd, Clarkson Avenue, 13th Avenue, Fort Hamilton Parkway and along the southern portion of Albany Avenue which no one has ever addressed. These make the system slow, and indirect with transferring difficult in many locations. I lived near Utica Avenue and Rutland Road and we could not easily get to the carousel in Prospect Park or the 71st Precinct at Empire and NY Avenue, so we ended up walking up to three miles. Look at a bus map today and see how difficult it is to make those types of trips. Although the communities have changed somewhat over the years, people still need to get to the same places and can't easily do it.

 

Unfortunately as B35 already pointed out, with the MTA's emphasis on cutting and not on cultivating ridership these problems will not only remain, the situation is most likely to get worse with the MTA seeking to concentrate routes. With the B44 SBS connecting with the B38 and not the B52, passengers will be diverted from the B52 to the B32. When the B46 becomes SBS, it will also not connect with the B52 drawing more passengers from it. So service gets cut on the 52 and added to the 38 as part of the routine service adjustments. Soon the B52 operates every 20 minutes at all times and the 38 operates every 7 minutes. Which route would you take? Then the B52 service is discontinued on weekends, and a few years later discontinued altogether. It is now 2020. The same thing then happens to north-south non SBS routes. Bed-Stuy which once had a great service is now screwed and the old service gaps from the 1930s still remain.

 

This folks is the MTA's way of planning. Sorry for the long rant. But you touched a subject most dear to my heart.

 

Thanks for the response.I should have remembered that while we were classmates you actually lived in neighborhood while I lived on both sides of East Flatbush and always had a bus pass.. That East Flatbush/Rugby question has dogged me, off and on, for almost 50 years. As most posters realize there was no internet or wiki for me to look up much of the Brooklyn bus history for most of my life, just the main library at Grand Army Plaza. Most of that type of information was fragmented,at best, in the library so most of what I post in the bus forum comes from my personal experience or that of my older relatives. Even my years of employment with NYCTA yielded little knowledge that I wasn't already familiar with. Lo and behold, it takes a former classmate of mine who actually lived in the area to help fill in the blanks. Maybe I should have talked to you more 50 years ago, LOL. To my fellow posters in the bus forum believe it when I say Brooklyn Bus KNOWS how the does/doesn't do comprehensive, honest, route planning when it comes bus service in the boroughs. They start with an agenda and match the statistics to fit said agenda. I've seen them do subway traffic checks on a Federal holiday at Bowling Green, Borough Hall, and Nevins St during the pm rush, more than once, so I always treat any stats from them as bogus.Thank you and thank you B35 via Church for your help. That's my post. Carry on

[qjtransitmaster]

1. They have nothing to do with this discussion, dont start the bullshit in any of these topics.

 

2. I find that to be amazing, unless they were drunk or high....

 

hmm slick are you trying to disguise a personal attack as something else I am not that foolish you know yet last I checked personal attacks were against the rules so in order to attack me you slickly reword the insults into a generalized form not buying it