68th Street Rehab (NIMBYism at its Finest)

[East New York]

Which is why I said that there are some exceptions to the rule. Case-in-point was Lee Sander's daughter asking him not to cut her bus route... lol

 

I just don't see what the big deal is about some new subway entrances/exits. Seems to me like a lot of New Yorkers just like to bitch and moan just for the sake of doing it.

[SubwayGuy]

Now as a conductor, it may make shutting down the train a bit harder but again, if there is a way to make the subway any easier to get to, then it needs to happen.

 

Not necessarily - the 69th st. entrance would be in an entirely different zone of the train...compared to stations like Union Sq, 51st, 59th, 125th, and 42nd, it would still be a cakewalk.

 

There are very few downsides to this project other than snobs who think "property values" should even matter as a consideration for improving the city for the vast majority of people who live in the area.

 

Property values are BS. Buying a home IS an investment...and just like an investment, it can go up or down. It is no one's given right to only have their property value go up or stay stable. Otherwise...if we believe that investments should only go up, then give me back the money on the stocks that underperformed the last 6 months, and I'll keep the profits from the investments I made which made money. Oh...the snobs wouldn't want to do that now...

[SubwayGuy]

Oh boy another ignorant Gorgor post to critique:

 

First, let me just do a quick list:

 

Pros

- Save some commuters 30 seconds to 1 minute of time

- 68th Street entrance will be less crowded

 

 

You forgot:

-Save most commuters 30 seconds to 2 minutes of time

-Provide faster access to subway station for UES residents entering the subway from north of 68th St.

-Provide ADA accessibility for the handicapped

-Reduce crowding conditions on the platform which can prevent accidental 12-9s, passengers coming into contact with the train, or customers inadvertently falling on the tracks

 

Cons

- Increase in homeless population on 69th Street (Yes, even if the cops do kick them away they'll just come back. Look at the 77th Street entrance)

The homeless people at 77th St are there because of the hospital, not the subway station. The hospital does not kick them off the wall between 76/77 on Lex.

 

- Increase in the people on 69th Street

Public street. Are you saying you don't think people have the right to use a public street?

 

- People blocking the sidewalk trying to get in

Public sidewalk. Are you saying you don't think people have the right to use a public sidewalk as a means to access a destination?

 

- Increase in crime (It's much easier to snatch a purse and run down the stairs than to snatch a purse, run a block, and then down the stairs without getting noticed)

Yes, because once that person runs down the stairs it's so much easier to swipe a Metrocard and go through a HEET than simply keep running. There's nowhere to go in the subway except back to the street...

 

- Property values decrease from the reasons listed above

Property values should never be a concern for anything. For the reasons listed in my previous post.

 

- Millions of our tax dollars spent on this (The MTA always finds a way to make it cost so damn much)

 

And your "alternative" is to build on 67th street which would cause all of the same temporary headaches, only cost significantly more?

[MHV9218]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[SubwayGuy]

I agree 100%! These folks act like building a new subway entrance is the end of the world. They've been doing just fine with the one that they have even if it is overcrowded, but how many other stations have this problem? 23rd street on the line has the same problem and they have a few different exits, so I don't see the big deal.

 

The crowding at 23rd Street is NOTHING compared to the crowding at 68th. The only stations that come close to 68th on the east side in terms of consistent crowding relative to platform surface area are:

-Fulton St.

-Union Sq.

-Grand Central (when there are service disruptions)

-51st

-59th

-77th

-103rd

 

The rest don't ever really get that bad. Canal and 86th have their moments, but nothing like the rest. The stations I listed you have people literally walking inches from moving trains in large crowds heading for exits, etc.

[SubwayGuy]

And to whoever said that there's homeless people everywhere, then I know that you've never been to the Upper East Side. If there's a homeless person leaning against a building or business the police will make sure that they're gone, using force if necessary, but they're not as hard on those leaning against a subway entrance.

 

Calling BS again. There's been a homeless guy living in front of the bakery on 77th and 2nd for quite some time and no one ever says anything despite the fact he heckles women there, and lives directly between several residents, and sleeps on the handicap accessible ramp to the bakery.

 

There's also one between first and second that literally lays out on steps after a certain hour. He's been coming for quite some time.

 

They are everywhere, INCLUDING the Upper East Side...it has little to do with which neighborhood and more to do with how persistent local area residents are in reporting them.

 

And for crime, it's so much easier to steal something and run down right into the subway without anyone getting a good look at you rather than having to run a block before going down. Nobody's going to rob someone on York Avenue for example and get to the subway without someone seeing their face or what they're wearing.

 

Funny - muggings take place in Carl Schurz Park (off East End) relatively often at night. They do things all the time in Central Park...no subway there... Side streets too. A lot of crime in the Upper East Side stems from the bars and restaurants...shootings at American Trash, Erminia Restaurant, stuff like that...neither near subways...

 

You are generalizing and it is wrong...life is not as predictable as you seem to want to make it sound...

 

Including the impacts of subway entrances on "the fabric of neigborhoods"...

[SubwayGuy]

Yes, I have plenty of times and I don't think that it's any worse than say the 77th street or 86th street station which are other stations along the on the Upper East Side.

 

86th is not nearly as crowded (either level) in terms of safety. Total ridership may be more but it is better distributed among the two platforms.

 

68th people get very close to the trains.

 

77th is like that too, but the difference is 77th's location and layout makes adding additional entrances difficult. 68th's makes it (relatively) easy. Perhaps in the future something can be done to help 77th. But just because something else is bad does not give an excuse to leave something bad alone and not try to improve it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The crowding at 23rd Street is NOTHING compared to the crowding at 68th. The only stations that come close to 68th on the east side in terms of consistent crowding relative to platform surface area are:

-Fulton St.

-Union Sq.

-Grand Central (when there are service disruptions)

-51st

-59th

-77th

-103rd

 

The rest don't ever really get that bad. Canal and 86th have their moments, but nothing like the rest. The stations I listed you have people literally walking inches from moving trains in large crowds heading for exits, etc.

 

That wasn't my point. I was specifically referring to the exits at the 23rd street station. Crowding on the platform isn't bad at all, but getting out of the exits takes forever. If I recall correctly, there is one exit that has been blocked off at that station on the Downtown side for what seems like a good year or so and they have the nerve to act like they're going to create another exit that will be on schedule and not over budget? I'd pay to see that happen. LOL

 

86th is not nearly as crowded (either level) in terms of safety. Total ridership may be more but it is better distributed among the two platforms.

 

68th people get very close to the trains.

 

77th is like that too, but the difference is 77th's location and layout makes adding additional entrances difficult. 68th's makes it (relatively) easy. Perhaps in the future something can be done to help 77th. But just because something else is bad does not give an excuse to leave something bad alone and not try to improve it.

 

No, 86th street isn't bad but the exits are bad, though not nearly as bad as say 23rd street. 77th is bad too because there just doesn't seem to be any space anywhere. Waiting for a train there can be a real mess too.

 

As for your last statement, my point was that they should be concerned about more than just one station. Again, I never said that they shouldn't try to improve it. I said that they should try to work with the community to make the station better.

 

It's all good guys, I speak rich, I can translate.

 

--

 

 

 

There are too many poor people on the subway.

 

 

 

My BMW is better than you.

 

 

 

I don't care about the disabled because I'm not, otherwise my husband wouldn't have bought me ten years ago.

 

 

 

This is a very elitist argument.

 

 

 

The MTA is for poor people but we're all rich so we'd like if they could leave, please.

 

Ugh don't be ridiculous...

 

 

Not necessarily - the 69th st. entrance would be in an entirely different zone of the train...compared to stations like Union Sq, 51st, 59th, 125th, and 42nd, it would still be a cakewalk.

 

There are very few downsides to this project other than snobs who think "property values" should even matter as a consideration for improving the city for the vast majority of people who live in the area.

 

Property values are BS. Buying a home IS an investment...and just like an investment, it can go up or down. It is no one's given right to only have their property value go up or stay stable. Otherwise...if we believe that investments should only go up, then give me back the money on the stocks that underperformed the last 6 months, and I'll keep the profits from the investments I made which made money. Oh...the snobs wouldn't want to do that now...

 

Oh that's just a ridiculous statement and you know it. On one hand you're arguing that buying a home IS an investment and then on the other hand you're basically saying that property values don't matter?? Really??? Owning a home is seen as an asset and there is no way that you're going to sit here and BS and say that you wouldn't care if your property value went down because of some outside source that is having a negative impact on your home and this is exactly what having this entrance would create. You're just saying that because it won't effect you so you could care less.

[Wallyhorse]

Having concerns about their property values and legitimate spikes in crime are most certainly NOT vanity issues. If this were a middle class neighborhood and folks were concerned about their property values, I doubt we would hear any of this talk about drops in property values not being an issue.

 

As for the crime issue, it is most certainly an issue. Crime is on the rise in the city and to state that is not a problem is most certainly irrational and outlandish.

 

Concerns about crime are certainly valid, but as one who lived on the upper east side in the 1970s and '80s when crime was much worse overall in NYC than it is now (even if it is on the rise), to me while it should be a concern, I doubt it would bring the levels some of these people might think it does.

 

Property values do have to be a concern, but I think those fears are a bit unfounded personally.

 

My point was, some people still think of what the subway was in an earlier time when crime was a MUCH more serious issue than today, and some views may be of what was the case 30-40 years ago.

[Wallyhorse]

No, 86th street isn't bad but the exits are bad, though not nearly as bad as say 23rd street. 77th is bad too because there just doesn't seem to be any space anywhere. Waiting for a train there can be a real mess too.

 

Which is why I would add an entrance at 76th Street whose main purpose would be for kids going to Wagner Junior High and Eleanor Roosevelt High School, both on 76th street.

[Fresh Pond]

That wasn't my point. I was specifically referring to the exits at the 23rd street station. Crowding on the platform isn't bad at all, but getting out of the exits takes forever. If I recall correctly, there is one exit that has been blocked off at that station on the Downtown side for what seems like a good year or so and they have the nerve to act like they're going to create another exit that will be on schedule and not over budget? I'd pay to see that happen. LOL

 

You're right about that. One of the staircases at the 22 St entrance is closed

 

What you failed to mention is that the other staircase at that exit is still open

 

Just had to point that out

[Gotham Bus Co.]

Property values should never be a concern for anything.

 

 

If anything, property values might increase because it would be easier for the area's domestic employees to get to work

[Princelex]

If anything, property values might increase because it would be easier for the area's domestic employees to get to work

 

And that's another thing that gets me. How can property value decrease when more people will be able to access the subway in another part of the neighborhood? Some thing like that would make me consider living in a neighborhood like that even more.

[SubwayGuy]

That wasn't my point. I was specifically referring to the exits at the 23rd street station. Crowding on the platform isn't bad at all, but getting out of the exits takes forever. If I recall correctly, there is one exit that has been blocked off at that station on the Downtown side for what seems like a good year or so and they have the nerve to act like they're going to create another exit that will be on schedule and not over budget? I'd pay to see that happen. LOL

 

Crowding on the platform is one of the biggest reasons to do this. So is ADA access.

 

Convenience and a faster exit are selling points to the general public.

 

No, 86th street isn't bad but the exits are bad, though not nearly as bad as say 23rd street. 77th is bad too because there just doesn't seem to be any space anywhere. Waiting for a train there can be a real mess too.

 

Like I said...77th and 68th are the worst. But 68th at least something can be done because of the physical layout of the station.

 

As for your last statement, my point was that they should be concerned about more than just one station. Again, I never said that they shouldn't try to improve it. I said that they should try to work with the community to make the station better.

 

And the community overwhelmingly supports this idea...they just want more information. It is just a few rich old ladies who live in one building on one block who don't take the subway who oppose it.

 

Oh that's just a ridiculous statement and you know it. On one hand you're arguing that buying a home IS an investment and then on the other hand you're basically saying that property values don't matter?? Really??? Owning a home is seen as an asset and there is no way that you're going to sit here and BS and say that you wouldn't care if your property value went down because of some outside source that is having a negative impact on your home and this is exactly what having this entrance would create. You're just saying that because it won't effect you so you could care less.

 

It's not a ridiculous statement at all. Property values going up or staying stable is no one's right. That goes for buying anything anywhere. This ridiculous entitled notion that people should fight something just because of money DOES NOT MATTER. It is a nonentity in a discussion about bettering the quality of subway service to a neighborhood as a whole.

 

Property value wouldn't even matter to me because I wouldn't buy property unless I intended on living there long term enough that I could deal with a few dips in value. A home's primary value is as a HOME, not as an investment or some quick way to invest in something, hold it for two years, and then flip it for a profit.

 

Property values DON'T MATTER in discussions about improving things for a majority of people. Perhaps if these people are so concerned about getting their "worth" then they could just enact eminent domain and take everything away from them for "market value" and then do whatever they want.

 

Would that be better than allowing these people to stay in their homes, continue living there, but oh boo hoo their property values "MIGHT" go down?

 

And for the record, most middle class and working class people don't worry about property values, in general. They only worry if they owe more on the property than what it's worth. Many who have complete equity would actually PREFER a lower property value if they intend to live there because it means they save money on property taxes.

 

It is absolutely ridiculous to say that progress should be thwarted simply because of concerns about the "net possessions" (notice I didn't use the odious term net worth) of a handful of people - no matter how rich or poor they are.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Crowding on the platform is one of the biggest reasons to do this. So is ADA access.

 

Convenience and a faster exit are selling points to the general public.

 

Yeah, but projects that go over budget constantly are not selling points. This project should be done, but it should be done as cost effective as possible and I still think that they should explore all possible avenues before proceeding with an exit on 69th street. I've heard of all of the excuses why it just HAS to be there, but I don't buy it. Someone in their planning office needs to get a bit more creative before they ram this through on these residents who have lived in the neighborhood for years.

 

Like I said...77th and 68th are the worst. But 68th at least something can be done because of the physical layout of the station.

 

Yes, but something isn't always better than nothing.

 

 

And the community overwhelmingly supports this idea...they just want more information. It is just a few rich old ladies who live in one building on one block who don't take the subway who oppose it.

 

And you just have to include their social economic standing in every post don't you? LOL Talk about a class warfare inciter. I'm curious as to why you're not down there with occupy Wall Street? B) *Coughs* [Hypocrite]... B)

 

 

It's not a ridiculous statement at all. Property values going up or staying stable is no one's right. That goes for buying anything anywhere. This ridiculous entitled notion that people should fight something just because of money DOES NOT MATTER. It is a nonentity in a discussion about bettering the quality of subway service to a neighborhood as a whole.

 

Are you serious? Money is money and some of these folks have worked damn hard to get their money and they have every right to fight to keep what is theirs. These people have lived on the Upper East Side for years and they should indeed fight to protect the character and charm of their neighborhood.

 

Property value wouldn't even matter to me because I wouldn't buy property unless I intended on living there long term enough that I could deal with a few dips in value. A home's primary value is as a HOME, not as an investment or some quick way to invest in something, hold it for two years, and then flip it for a profit.

 

Oh please. You are so full of it. This is not just a small dip in value due to the market. This is some outside source looking to build a monstrosity that could potentially destroy the neighborhood and have everlasting effects on housing prices there.

 

Property values DON'T MATTER in discussions about improving things for a majority of people. Perhaps if these people are so concerned about getting their "worth" then they could just enact eminent domain and take everything away from them for "market value" and then do whatever they want.

 

Would that be better than allowing these people to stay in their homes, continue living there, but oh boo hoo their property values "MIGHT" go down?

 

And for the record, most middle class and working class people don't worry about property values, in general. They only worry if they owe more on the property than what it's worth. Many who have complete equity would actually PREFER a lower property value if they intend to live there because it means they save money on property taxes.

 

It is absolutely ridiculous to say that progress should be thwarted simply because of concerns about the "net possessions" (notice I didn't use the odious term net worth) of a handful of people - no matter how rich or poor they are.

 

Yeah, well try telling the folks in Brooklyn that their housing values don't matter. They fought that Nets plan tooth and nail to try to keep their neighborhood in tact. I think it's terrible that they're going to have this enormous arena with a lack on infrastructure there. The infrastructure should've been put there first and then you put the arena there, not vice versa.

[TwoTimer]

About Atlantic yards, I heard its the rats construction digs up and the increase in traffic on already congested streets that's the problem. Of course they could have put the arena in Floyd Bennett field and develop an entire complex of commercial and residential buildings there, covering Atlantic Yards with a sizable but needed park with some light residential/commercial development. Downtown Brooklyn would be jumping through hula hoops, and there is still enough empty space out in Marine Park to redevelop the missing parkland, but of cause that idea isn't "trendy" enough for rice developers who are trying to recast Brooklyn as its own city they way it used to be.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

About Atlantic yards, I heard its the rats construction digs up and the increase in traffic on already congested streets that's the problem. Of course they could have put the arena in Floyd Bennett field and develop an entire complex of commercial and residential buildings there, covering Atlantic Yards with a sizable but needed park with some light residential/commercial development. Downtown Brooklyn would be jumping through hula hoops, and there is still enough empty space out in Marine Park to redevelop the missing parkland, but of cause that idea isn't "trendy" enough for rice developers who are trying to recast Brooklyn as its own city they way it used to be.

 

Ugh... Marine Park is a charming, quiet, upscale area and it's best to keep it that way. The streets would just be a mess anyway. Folks living further out in Mid and Southern Brooklyn live there for the peace and quiet that it offers, as it has a sense of suburbaness to it with its tree lined, clean streets and such. Marine Park is also great because its low crime rate, something that I'm sure a basketball arena would raise problems with all of the hooligans and such about.

[TwoTimer]

Yup, that's the good part about subways not extending to every neighborhood in the city. Most of the desirable neighborhoods (outside Manhattan) to live in are ones that are underserved by mass transit...

In the Bronx: Riverdale, Throgs Neck, Country Club (what do these three have in common)

In Queens: Astoria, Bayside, Whitestone, parts of Flushing, Jamaica Estates, and basically anything east of the Clearview lol.

 

Not going to go through all of them, just a few.

 

And this is exactly the point of what those residents are making. Only working class people want to live near mass transit, as soon as they get some money and go into the middle class they're already looking at moving into more suburban type surroundings. Going into the upper class there's a split - some want the city as its the basis for their decent if not substantial income, others continue with upper class suburbia (think those enclaves in Westchester County or richer areas of the outerboroughs)

[East New York]

Yup, that's the good part about subways not extending to every neighborhood in the city. Most of the desirable neighborhoods (outside Manhattan) to live in are ones that are underserved by mass transit...

In the Bronx: Riverdale, Throgs Neck, Country Club (what do these three have in common)

In Queens: Astoria, Bayside, Whitestone, parts of Flushing, Jamaica Estates, and basically anything east of the Clearview lol.

 

Not going to go through all of them, just a few.

 

And this is exactly the point of what those residents are making. Only working class people want to live near mass transit, as soon as they get some money and go into the middle class they're already looking at moving into more suburban type surroundings. Going into the upper class there's a split - some want the city as its the basis for their decent if not substantial income, others continue with upper class suburbia (think those enclaves in Westchester County or richer areas of the outerboroughs)

 

That I can agree with. That's also one of the reasons why buses serve many parts of cities that were never intended to be served by subway or light rail.

 

There are so many factors in transit operations planning that someone will likely be happy while others won't. It's just the way life goes.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yup, that's the good part about subways not extending to every neighborhood in the city. Most of the desirable neighborhoods (outside Manhattan) to live in are ones that are underserved by mass transit...

In the Bronx: Riverdale, Throgs Neck, Country Club (what do these three have in common)

In Queens: Astoria, Bayside, Whitestone, parts of Flushing, Jamaica Estates, and basically anything east of the Clearview lol.

 

Not going to go through all of them, just a few.

 

And this is exactly the point of what those residents are making. Only working class people want to live near mass transit, as soon as they get some money and go into the middle class they're already looking at moving into more suburban type surroundings. Going into the upper class there's a split - some want the city as its the basis for their decent if not substantial income, others continue with upper class suburbia (think those enclaves in Westchester County or richer areas of the outerboroughs)

 

Very good point. That's a big reason why many Staten Islanders don't want a subway and many of them have said to me directly that they refuse to use the subway, listing several reasons why too. They already complain about the riff-raff caused by the SIR being free at most stops and I would vehemently oppose any subway in or near my neighborhood. We have express bus service for those who need a quick commute and if they can't afford it well then there's other areas to move to with better transit. That's especially why we in West Brighton (me especially) were so vocal about fighting to keep the X16.

 

Riverdale, Throgs Neck and Country Club all have one thing in common. They are served decently with transit (especially Riverdale with several express buses and MetroNorth), but none of them have a subway.

 

My boss lives on the Upper East Side and commutes via the local bus to and from the office and they most certainly don't have a problem using public transportation, but they wouldn't use the subway. That's why I don't think the folks complaining are snobs per se. Many of them may indeed use the local bus, but they just don't use the subway because they don't feel that it's safe and adding this entrance could indeed bring about unwanted riff-raff along 69th street. You have to think about it. Yeah maybe 68th street is just one block away, but there is still no entrance at 69th street and so in that regard, those folks looking to escape loads of traffic and potential noise obviously aren't on 68th street. 69th street is a perfect example.

[TwoTimer]

The middle class wants trees, parks, excellent schools, clean air, a house (not an apartment), and generally speaking, apartment buildings (with smaller single family dwellings) line the blocks near subway routes. I as a T/O make 80k altogether now (living in the Bronx), and already I'm preparing to move outside of the five boroughs in a few years (right now Pelham Manor is high on my list). But of the areas within the city I've looked at, those neighborhoods listed were the only ones I even considered. Of course I'm a special case because I don't work in Manhattan per se, I just drive a train through it. And even among those neighborhoods, the schools in Pelham are superior so I get more for my 500k-750k than I do in NYC. I even looked at SI, but my wife said no, too expensive to go to Manhattan. Cost of living is slightly higher in Pelham, but commuting options are better, and getting to Manhattan is toll-free.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The middle class wants trees, parks, excellent schools, clean air, a house (not an apartment), and generally speaking, apartment buildings (with smaller single family dwellings) line the blocks near subway routes. I as a T/O make 80k altogether now (living in the Bronx), and already I'm preparing to move outside of the five boroughs in a few years (right now Pelham Manor is high on my list). But of the areas within the city I've looked at, those neighborhoods listed were the only ones I even considered. Of course I'm a special case because I don't work in Manhattan per se, I just drive a train through it. And even among those neighborhoods, the schools in Pelham are superior so I get more for my 500k-750k than I do in NYC. I even looked at SI, but my wife said no, too expensive to go to Manhattan. Cost of living is slightly higher in Pelham, but commuting options are better, and getting to Manhattan is toll-free.

 

Tell your wife to just drive to express bus. That's what many couples do that want to avoid the high toll on the Verrazano or the Goethals or Bayonne bridges and want to go out to the city for the evening. I go to the city all the time and I just call car service and they drop me off at the express bus and I have them waiting for me when I get off of the express bus late at night. :cool: Whenever I move to Riverdale, I will probably do the same thing depending on where I move, but then again Riverdale has such good express bus service that's within walking distance that car service wouldn't really be needed since I would only have to walk a few blocks anyway. MetroNorth might be a different story though.

[TwoTimer]

Tell your wife to just drive to express bus. That's what many couples do that want to avoid the high toll on the Verrazano or the Goethals or Bayonne bridges and want to go out to the city for the evening. I go to the city all the time and I just call car service and they drop me off at the express bus and I have them waiting for me when I get off of the express bus late at night. :cool: Whenever I move to Riverdale, I will probably do the same thing depending on where I move, but then again Riverdale has such good express bus service that's within walking distance that car service wouldn't really be needed since I would only have to walk a few blocks anyway. MetroNorth might be a different story though.

 

Yes it does. Every main road has Xpress bus going down it, and multiple ones, in similar shape to Co-op City. But the main reason SI fell out of favor was for when we considered both our jobs, it wouldn't work that well. She's still looking for a job upgrade and is not completely sure where that will be yet (could be in the city, could be in eastern Jersey, could be in Westchester). Of course this is 3-5 years from now, things can change and often do. All I know is that 500k goes a lot farther in SI than it does in the other boros. But the school system may end up with us in Westchester or Rockland (where in the latter 500k goes even farther).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes it does. Every main road has Xpress bus going down it, and multiple ones, in similar shape to Co-op City. But the main reason SI fell out of favor was for when we considered both our jobs, it wouldn't work that well. She's still looking for a job upgrade and is not completely sure where that will be yet (could be in the city, could be in eastern Jersey, could be in Westchester). Of course this is 3-5 years from now, things can change and often do. All I know is that 500k goes a lot farther in SI than it does in the other boros. But the school system may end up with us in Westchester or Rockland (where in the latter 500k goes even farther).

 

Yeah I will admit that where you work most certainly does play a factor when you live on Staten Island. I'm fortunate enough to work dead smack on 5th avenue here in Midtown, with the express bus stop being across the street at night. Can't get any better than that since my main buses are the X14 and X30 and the X10 and X12/X42 or sometimes the X17 late at night. I did quit one job for several reasons, but the commute was certainly one main reason. It was on the Upper West Side on 72nd and Broadway and it was just too much of schlepp for me. I had planned on staying on Staten Island, but I really want to live in an apartment and I want to be somewhere that is walkable but not necessarily urban, but has good express bus service well into the late hours and I don't see anywhere on Staten Island that fits that bill.

 

As for the Bronx, one thing that I realized is that the northern parts of the Bronx can be affordable and are very desirable and affluent like Riverdale, Throgs Neck, Morris Park and The Country Club. What's I find interesting about Riverdale is while it can be pricey, it's not that pricey, especially with a very poor area like Kingsbridge which is south of it. What makes it seem very pricey is that you have some very wealthy folks that live there but not everyone is uber wealthy up there. I think I read somewhere that the median income for folks in Riverdale is 80k, which is obviously not bad, especially for one person, but is still middle class, albeit going towards the upper middle class realm. That's why I'm moving there because, it's affluent, has great transportation, but isn't urban, but yet I can still get around quite nicely to the city without a car and it's good for a upper middle class single young professional like myself. All of this and it's still pricey to keep it upscale, but it has apartments and such to make it slightly urban, but they're priced high enough to keep out the riff raff. :cool:

[TwoTimer]

Riverdale (like Williamsburg) was one of those areas that shot through the roof during the boom. For anything decent up there though, its still 500k, and there are a great many private schools up there for additional cost. When it comes to free and high quality schooling without the red tape, Pelham/Pelham Manor has seemed to be the best bet, along with decent green space and a house (and not a coop or condo like in Riverdale). What I noticed about a great many parts of the city is that the income levels have not risen, but property levels have shot through the roof, preventing movement from neighborhood to neighborhood. Upgrades are difficult and expensive. As far as median income goes, Pelham is similar, we wonder as well how people only making 50-75k can afford houses selling for 600-900k. We looked closer, and we saw that these same houses sold for much more affordable middle class 300s and 400s 5-15 years ago.