Should The RTS NYMTA Buses Be Replaced With The New Flyer Xcelsior

[Nova RTS 9147]

Too many RTS units, too few New Flyers (for now) and too many buses that need to be retired (Ex Bee-Line O5s for starters) sooner than the RTS's.

[R68 Subway Car]

The RTS are good for another few years. It is too early to start replacing them.

[Eric B]

What they should start doing soon is dispersing the newer ones (including to to MTAB) to replace the older 9000's.

[East New York]

I would like to think that the beloved the "New Yorker Bus" RTS will get hanged to bring new meat...hint,hint...Xcelsior to the hard streets of New York. This is an important issue. (M42) (B6) (S76) :mad::mad::mad::confused:

 

There are a ton of other buses that need to be replaced before the RTS' do. Not only that but the Xcelsiors only account 180 new buses. 90 40ftrs, and 90 Artics. There are still 1,050 RTS buses in service, and quite a few in storage and on reserve. About 700 of them will be retired soon.

 

New Buses delivered and/or scheduled to be delivered by late 2013 IIRC.

 

Diesel/hybrid - 729

CNG - 579

Artics - 590

Express - 348

 

Thats aprox +/- 2,246 buses.

 

The Xcelsiors, and LFS 40 footers are not qualified for regular operations within the City of New York, and will not be until the test & evaluation period has concluded. 180 Xcelsiors will only put a small dent in the remaining RTS fleet. There are about 475 Orion V diesels that will have to be replaced as well. Speaking of Xcelsiors, I would love to see them at West Farms, Quill, and Flatbush. That is one beautiful bus, but only time will tell if she can stand up to the streets of New York.

 

The Orion and RTS products are now up for what is basically a re-qualification, as they are essentially the same buses already approved for NYC revenue service. The RTS however would have to go through the full ringer because MTA has never had the bus in it's new configuration. At the same time, the 42.5 foot HF and LF are near identical save a few modifications. So when the LF makes its way to the city, drivers and mechanics will have already been trained on most everything.

 

 

Our RTS will be good for another 4-5 years if anything

 

Make that 5-7 years. Remember the best 350 in the fleet are being overhauled! Not only that, but the MTA has not been RTS-free since 1980, and if all goes as planned, I don't see it happening anytime within the next 20 years either.

 

lol, A certain someone isn't gonna like hearing about that possibility. THen again, would there be any value for a 5-10 yr old MCI bus for another city? I would think maybe another city could buy them and the MTA then uses that money towards buying a few local buses.

Ideally converting express buses to be used for local service is a good idea, but I'm not sure if they can fit everywhere especially on narrow roads or places where the overpass isn't tall enough.

 

Converting 1 door express buses to local coaches is definitely NOT a good idea at all! That would be a nightmare for dwell times, and it's just not a good idea logistically

 

What about the MTS prototypes coming in? Assuming the prototypes are up to snuff (and there's no real reason why they shouldn't be) it should be possible to have a deal inked for however many of them we need by the end of 2012. At that point the deal is sealed and the buses are paid for, and it should be possible to get buses that can go either way if necessary. Just spec a second door on half the 42.5' express models and order a mix of high and low floor models for local service. That way you have fifteen more years of RTSs in NYC, and at the same time the express fleet can be pressed into local service as necessary.

 

I couldn't agree more. NJT higher ups are now interested in the 42.5 foot model as well, so there is talk of building them a demo too. It would be similar to the MTA model, but with a rear door. In this configuration, the bus can still seat up to 47, and be used for both local and express service. It also makes sense for the MTA to get 42.5 foot low floors on routes that need more capacity, but not necessarily artics. The only routes that may require high floor local buses for the long haul would be out of Brooklyn The Bronx, and Queens. The newest of the Nova RTS' will likely die at ECH, ENY, FLA, JAM, LGA, QV, and UP.

 

What they should start doing soon is dispersing the newer ones (including to to MTAB) to replace the older 9000's.

 

The new (test) buses won't be going to MTAB at least until the evaluation phase is complete. And the remaining 8700's through 8900's still have to be replaced first, along with the Orion V's.

[Grand Concourse]

That's true: about it not being worth it to convert the express into local buses. But should the MTA really fall into the hole where they can't afford to buy new buses and cut more express bus routes, then I'm thinking that is the likely plan B [after plan A being to keep the oldest buses on life support]. Not a great idea, but when desperate, desperate measures must be taken.

[Eric B]

The new (test) buses won't be going to MTAB at least until the evaluation phase is complete. And the remaining 8700's through 8900's still have to be replaced first, along with the Orion V's.

By "newER", I meant the newer RTS's (9400's and up; 4900-5200's). they haven't started spreading those around to MTAB yet.

 

Make that 5-7 years. Remember the best 350 in the fleet are being overhauled!

You mean a total rebuild like the Blitzes and 7000's reman's? Or just some sort of stepped up SMS program?

Not only that, but the MTA has not been RTS-free since 1980, and if all goes as planned, I don't see it happening anytime within the next 20 years either.

How so with an overhaul that will extend by a couple years? The only way I could see 20 years, is with new ones. Have you heard something like that?

[East New York]

By "newER", I meant the newer RTS's (9400's and up; 4900-5200's). they haven't started spreading those around to MTAB yet.

 

Oh ok. I can see some of the upper 9300's through 9500's, and maybe dome 9600's making it over there eventually. MTAB would only need between 80 and 100 though, and that's only if ECH stays all high floor. I don't see any '98 or '99 coaches going over there for at least 3 years. But, only time will truly tell as anything could change with the TA.

 

You mean a total rebuild like the Blitzes and 7000's reman's? Or just some sort of stepped up SMS program?

 

Probably somewhere between the two. The buses are supposed to have the rear bulkheads sand blasted and repaired. Nova used Galvanized Steel instead of stainless. Big mistake as the bulkheads are now cracking. The engines are also scheduled to be either overhauled or rebuilt. I can't remember which one.

 

 

How so with an overhaul that will extend by a couple years? The only way I could see 20 years, is with new ones. Have you heard something like that?

 

Overhaul will only extend the life a few more years. I was referencing new RTS buses. That's if the TA does decide to order them of course. Then there would be RTS' around till about 2028 at least. Much longer if they order more than just a test fleet or two.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Too many RTS units, too few New Flyers (for now) and too many buses that need to be retired (Ex Bee-Line O5s for starters) sooner than the RTS's.

 

They need to also take better care of the newer fleet. These newer buses don't look like they're going to last as long as these RTSs have, which is a scary thought.

[Eric B]

Overhaul will only extend the life a few more years. I was referencing new RTS buses. That's if the TA does decide to order them of course. Then there would be RTS' around till about 2028 at least. Much longer if they order more than just a test fleet or two.

OK. I wasn't aware ever even began considering MTS. It still seemed more like just people's wishes, while the new company hadn't really proven themselves yet. Now you seem to be saying it's "planned".

[East New York]

They need to also take better care of the newer fleet. These newer buses don't look like they're going to last as long as these RTSs have, which is a scary thought.

 

The ONLY bus that has ever, and will ever last as long as an RTS was her mother..... The New Look. And that's a fact. Not an opinion.

 

OK. I wasn't aware ever even began considering MTS. It still seemed more like just people's wishes, while the new company hadn't really proven themselves yet. Now you seem to be saying it's "planned".

 

In my opinion, the company has definitely proven themselves already. They have built a bus that is on track to a durability AND reliability record higher than any RTS before it. Not only that, but every last operator of an MTS RTS wants more. The NJT cancellation was a decision that had nothing to do with MTS quality or their ability to build and supply buses. All the current MTS operators would have likely had more buses than they do now if NJT had not backed out the deal. I would like to get into the REAL reason the order was cancelled, but it's neither here nor there at this time. No point in crying over spilled milk. However, NJT is looking at the bus again, and will be offered the 42.5 foot model that is very similar to the one MTA will be testing. The MTS bus has already gotten rave reviews from NJT personnel.

 

As far as MTA goes, they have already been approached about the new bus, and is set to take delivery of a demo built 100% to their specs in early 2012.

 

MTS is dead set on supplying MTA 2 bus modes for the BT&E program. So yes, it has been planned for more than a year. If no one figured it out yet, I'm the Advanced RTS Validation Program founder, and coordinator.

 

There is a whole thread on the new bus, and the fact that MTS wants to enter the BT&E program. http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31592

[Eric B]

I guess I breezed through that thread so fast, it didn't click that were were really going to test these. (I figured those pictures with the MTA livery were shopped fantasies).

 

The RTS became so ubiquitous for several decades, it would seem funny to go back to it. It would be like the 80's and 90's all over again, especially once the newness wears off.

 

But that's because I'm not really that nostalgic about the RTS. I'm nostalgic about new looks. If a model could be resurrected a decade after its death like that, then how about new new looks. Of course, what would be more likely is Classics. Too bad MTS didn't pick up those.

The Compo and even the NG's (and the Novas' rear window and A/C) do evoke the "new look" look, so I'm moderately interested in those.

 

To me, the novelty of the ADB's was when they were new, but once the newness wears off, again, it's like the same ol; same ol. I did look forward to the Designline as being sort of the new RTS. But it seems they just dropped that, right?

[East New York]

I guess I breezed through that thread so fast, it didn't click that were were really going to test these. (I figured those pictures with the MTA livery were shopped fantasies).

 

The RTS became so ubiquitous for several decades, it would seem funny to go back to it. It would be like the 80's and 90's all over again, especially once the newness wears off.

 

But that's because I'm not really that nostalgic about the RTS. I'm nostalgic about new looks. If a model could be resurrected a decade after its death like that, then how about new new looks. Of course, what would be more likely is Classics. Too bad MTS didn't pick up those.

The Compo and even the NG's (and the Novas' rear window and A/C) do evoke the "new look" look, so I'm moderately interested in those.

 

To me, the novelty of the ADB's was when they were new, but once the newness wears off, again, it's like the same ol; same ol. I did look forward to the Designline as being sort of the new RTS. But it seems they just dropped that, right?

 

It's interesting you mention a New Look resurrection! No comment!!! At least not right now! Lol.

 

As far as the RTS, those shots are definitely Photoshopped into MTA livery. And the bus had only been out of production for 4 years. Nowhere near a decade yet. As far as the "newness" goes, MTS couldn't care less about that right now. The #1 focus is reliability, and customer service. It's not about the newness wearing off, and the RTS isn't "same ol same ol at all!" The bus has the best record of any other, so It would only make since to at least evaluate a product that's stood the test of time. Looks aren't everything at all, and any agency that orders a bus based off looks may be in for a rude awakening. That being said, these buses won't look anything like the one's MTA has now. Same shape on the side and rear, but it's a new bus, and has very little in common with its predecessors, save the basic structure.

 

As far as the DesignLine goes, MTA has not counted them out. They make a great bus, but that hybrid propulsion system left much to be desired.

[Eric B]

It's interesting you mention a New Look resurrection! No comment!!! At least not right now! Lol.

Well, well, what could that possibly mean...?

As far as the RTS, those shots are definitely Photoshopped into MTA livery. And the bus had only been out of production for 4 years. Nowhere near a decade yet. As far as the "newness" goes, MTS couldn't care less about that right now. The #1 focus is reliability, and customer service. It's not about the newness wearing off, and the RTS isn't "same ol same ol at all!" The bus has the best record of any other, so It would only make since to at least evaluate a product that's stood the test of time. Looks aren't everything at all, and any agency that orders a bus based off looks may be in for a rude awakening. That being said, these buses won't look anything like the one's MTA has now. Same shape on the side and rear, but it's a new bus, and has very little in common with its predecessors, save the basic structure.

 

I know, but I was just speaking from my own nostalgic perspective. It's like the last RTS era hadn't even completely passed yet, and I was just getting used to all new models.

[East New York]

Well, well, what could that possibly mean...?

 

 

I know, but I was just speaking from my own nostalgic perspective. It's like the last RTS era hadn't even completely passed yet, and I was just getting used to all new models.

 

I understand where you are coming from. But you're making it sound like the TA is about to order 5,000 RTS' again though. Orion is clearly going to dominate the fleet for the near future. Diversity is a good thing. It promotes better products. Because of the RTS and New Look, buses like the Orion V and Flxible were born.

 

Not only that, but a lot of people seem to be threatened by the prospect of the RTS re-entering the MTA fleet......

 

As far as the New Look goes. I'm sworn to secrecy on that one!

[BZGuy]

I understand where you are coming from. But you're making it sound like the TA is about to order 5,000 RTS' again though. Orion is clearly going to dominate the fleet for the near future. Diversity is a good thing. It promotes better products. Because of the RTS and New Look, buses like the Orion V and Flxible were born.

 

I would rather see than then more O7s or XDs. IMO, those buse have none of the character that the RTS or Classics had. Everybody is fawning all over them beacuse they are new but I don't see what the big deal is.

 

 

As far as the New Look goes. I'm sworn to secrecy on that one!B)

 

I have some of that truth serum around here somewhere......

[Eric B]

I understand where you are coming from. But you're making it sound like the TA is about to order 5,000 RTS' again though. Orion is clearly going to dominate the fleet for the near future. Diversity is a good thing. It promotes better products.

Yeah; for some reason, I was figuring (irrationally assuming) they would like the RTS because it was so tried and true, and then end up ordering 5000.

But yeah, to have a few new ones would be nice. (Just like I really wished they had gotten those 50 Flxibles that were supplanted by Orions instead).

As far as the New Look goes. I'm sworn to secrecy on that one!

So for real, someone is thinking of reviving it? I wonder how they would ever pull that off. The smaller slanted windows and all. And adapting it to low floor. (I've thought of the ideal long before now!)

 

I always said it would be good for a nostalgic tour route through the city. Add modern LED batwings as well. (The silversided, open aired upper level Neoplan double-deckers on Gray Line made me think of this. They even had slanted bulkheads too, though not quite like a new look).

 

Is Old Look next, then?

[East New York]

Yeah; for some reason, I was figuring (irrationally assuming) they would like the RTS because it was so tried and true, and then end up ordering 5000.

But yeah, to have a few new ones would be nice. (Just like I really wished they had gotten those 50 Flxibles that were supplanted by Orions instead).

So for real, someone is thinking of reviving it? I wonder how they would ever pull that off. The smaller slanted windows and all. And adapting it to low floor. (I've thought of the ideal long before now!)

 

I always said it would be good for a nostalgic tour route through the city. Add modern LED batwings as well. (The silversided, open aired upper level Neoplan double-deckers on Gray Line made me think of this. They even had slanted bulkheads too, though not quite like a new look).

 

Is Old Look next, then?

 

Yeah, at this time MTS just wants to offer the bus for test and evaluation. The rest would be up to MTA. So that only accounts for 180 buses total.

 

Man oh man... The Flxibles! I'm definitely with you on that one bro! Those were some really good buses. Remember that signature lean???

 

But on another note.... Yes, there are a couple of people in the industry who want to bring the New Look back in the not too distant future. I can't really speak on the details, and nothing is final at this moment, but it is being researched as we speak!:cool:

 

If it does happen, I'll be DONE!!!

[DJ MC]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters