What the MTA and DOT are not telling you about the B44 SBS

[BrooklynBus]

I'm confused.... Why the need for the B44 to go to Sheepshead Bay train station suddenly??? What is wrong with the B36? It seems like you're proposing something that you've been saying you're against, which is more super routes??

 

I would also like to know where did the B4 riders that took the B4 using the old Sheepshead Bay route go???

 

I never said I was against the principal of SBS. I don't like why it isn't easy to transfer between the local and SBS though. I think it could work well on the correct routes. I have no problem with the Bx12 although I haven't really studied it. The only other problem I have with the M15 is why they chose that route. It seems to me it was chosen so they could have a reason to scrap the lower half of the Second Avenue Subway. In Brooklyn, they should have chosen a cross Brooklyn Route either beginning in Bay Ridge and using Bath Avenue, Bay Parkway, Avenue P, Kings Highway, Avenue K, Flatlands to Gateway and or JFK. An alternative would be starting at Caesars Bay Shopping Center.

 

I don't like the B44 or a B41 SBS. I think a B46 SBS could work between Eastern Parkway and Kings Plaza.

 

There is nothing wrong with the B36 other than there is not enough service east of Sheepshead Bay Station. The ridership east of the station at times of the day is double what it is along the rest of the route, yet there are no short turns, other than some buses turning at Stillwell. I think with a B44 SBS east of the station, more people would use the bus. I wouldn't have proposed it if the MTA weren't planning to double B44 service south of Avenue U when there are only about half a dozen riders per bus south of Avenue Z. Passengers getting on between Avenue U and Avenue Z would prefer Sheepshead Bay Station to the Junction by far so why add extra buses to serve the Junction?

 

There were very few B4 riders getting on and off along Neptune Avenue. If they were going to Bay Ridge, they walk two blocks to the B1 and also walk further to their destination in Bensonhurst and Bay Ridge. Don't think anyone is walking from Neptune to Avenue Z. Some probably just changed their route entirely. For example someone going from Coney Island Avenue and Neptune to Bay Parkway and Stillwell would now take the B68 to the B82 at Kings Highway. Some trips might not be made at all and some may be taking car service instead.

[BrooklynBus]

Now, I've gotten a chance to read the article a 2nd time around. I'm going to say this. Any change to the current route of the 44 will make it EVEN LONGER THAN IT IS... MORE STOPS + MORE TRAFFIC...add more lines to the 49 and have some rush-hour AM/PM terminate/start at Sheepshead Bay Road to Futon OR have alternative B1 buses go thru Sheepshead Bay road to supplement service..

 

I haven't been in that Sheepshead/Coney Island area in years, so someone in that area would kindly please correct me if possible..

 

First of all, it is about the same distance from Avenue Z and Nostrand to Sheepshead Bay Station as it is to Knapp and Emmons so the route would not be longer.

 

Second, about three times as many Brighton passengers currently use the B1 as opposed to the B49 and the B1 is more overcrowded so sending alternate B1s to Sheepshead Bay is out of the question. The reason they prefer the B1 is because the B1 headways are much better than the B49 and the B1 ride is shorter. Also the yellow school buses serve the Brighton Station which carries probably 25% of the B1s load.

[Acela Express]

Most riders along Nostrand are going to Knapp Street

Depends, actually. But, most passengers are actually going towards Knapp Street - getting off along Shore Parkway to be exact.

 

It's not that crazy of a terminus.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Depends, actually. But, most passengers are actually going towards Knapp Street - getting off along Shore Parkway to be exact.

 

It's not that crazy of a terminus.

 

True... People forget that you have the movie theatre over on Knapp St, along with the nursing home. I see quite a few folks waiting at the first stop when I'm on the BM3.

[Shortline Bus]

I tend to agree with you. If the B44 is still crowded by the time the bus reaches Avenue U, most people are off of it by Avenue Z. Ridership below that point is very light. There is no need to double the service.

 

 

Thank You for clearing up what i meant to say Alan. :tup:

 

Yes (B44) Limited ridership tanks *south* of Avenue Z/Nostrand. I was pointing out most (B44) riders both local and limited are not going to the Sheapshead Bay station. I was trying to point out from 20-plus years riding the (B44) (B36) in that area of South Brooklyn riders *north of Kings Highway* since the metrocard era traveling between Nostrand coordior and Sheapshead Station will more likely use crosstown routes like the (B82)Kings Highway (B6)(B11) via Avenue J/Glenwood (B8) (B35) etc. and transfer to the ( which is much faster than say if a (B44)SBS was created to Sheapshead Bay station.

 

That was my point guys especially to (B35)via Church.:cool:

[BrooklynBus]

I was trying to point out from 20-plus years riding the (B44) (B36) in that area of South Brooklyn riders *north of Kings Highway* since the metrocard era traveling between Nostrand coordior and Sheapshead Station will more likely use crosstown routes like the (B82)Kings Highway (B6)(B11) via Avenue J/Glenwood (B8) (B35) etc. and transfer to the ( which is much faster than say if a (B44)SBS was created to Sheapshead Bay station.

 

That was my point guys especially to (B35)via Church.:cool:

 

That was the same point I made in an earlier article. Reducing B44 travel time by 4 minutes is not much encouragement to get people to switch to the SBS from those crosstown buses. It will happen during the morning rush hour only because you can get a seat at the Junction. During other times most people will still prefer the Brighton Line. Another disincentive of the Junction is that it is not viewed as a safe place to change to the train especially at night.

 

When you plan by looking at numbers on a piece of paper and never ride a bus and have absolutely no understanding how people make their decisions, you come up with a plan like the proposed B44 SBS as the MTA has done.

[B35 via Church]

Thank You for clearing up what i meant to say Alan. :tup:

 

1) Yes (B44) Limited ridership tanks *south* of Avenue Z/Nostrand.

 

2) I was pointing out most (B44) riders both local and limited are not going to the Sheapshead Bay station.

 

3) I was trying to point out from 20-plus years riding the (B44) (B36) in that area of South Brooklyn riders *north of Kings Highway* since the metrocard era traveling between Nostrand coordior and Sheapshead Station will more likely use crosstown routes like the (B82)Kings Highway (B6)(B11) via Avenue J/Glenwood (B8) (B35) etc. and transfer to the ( which is much faster than say if a (B44)SBS was created to Sheapshead Bay station.

 

That was my point guys especially to (B35)via Church.:cool:

 

BrooklynBus agreed with my statement, that disagreed with your original statement...

So basically you're thanking me for disagreeing with you.... Lol !

 

Anyway...

 

1) you originally said most riders are goin over to knapp, though.... which is the polar opposite of what you're now sayin in this statement - which was the original point I defiantly disagreed with.... but as long as you realize ridership on the B44 DOES tank down there, it's all good....

 

2) That's rather obvious, don't ya think bro? The majority of some 13 million riders can't be going to/coming from sheepshead on the brighton

 

3) That much I got, originally.... Checkmate was the one that said you were only talkin about Sheepshead riders that live by Nostrand av.....

 

...but I still think the number of ppl. comin off B8's, B35's, etc. goin to Sheepshead is rather low....

I get what you are sayin; there are more ppl. gettin to sheepshead via the brighton, as opposed to the B44

(which again, I'd tend to think that's also obvious)

 

 

So now that you clarified yourself.... :tup:

['89 Liberty MCI]

That was the same point I made in an earlier article. Reducing B44 travel time by 4 minutes is not much encouragement to get people to switch to the SBS from those crosstown buses. It will happen during the morning rush hour only because you can get a seat at the Junction. During other times most people will still prefer the Brighton Line. Another disincentive of the Junction is that it is not viewed as a safe place to change to the train especially at night.

 

When you plan by looking at numbers on a piece of paper and never ride a bus and have absolutely no understanding how people make their decisions, you come up with a plan like the proposed B44 SBS as the MTA has done.

 

-10

[NYCT7720]

No one has proposed short buses for SBS although short buses will be used on the locals as far as I know, if that is what you mean.

 

No Short buses on any SBS or high volume customer line doesnt work. I was really talking about 2 topics on one blog Short Buses doing SBS routes & MTA's Method of finding out ridership through the computer data, and any low floor bus ordered by MTA cannot handle the load as it counterparts of the high floor buses the only ones that can handle the load is the low floor & high floor articulated buses. If the decision was up for a vote I would say all NovaLFS Articulated buses only should be assigned to SBS, but with high volume shortages of buses a short bus has made its way to an SBS route

[Q43LTD]

Simply put, the (B44) is not the (Q37) so to speak. Mid route diversions are good for some routes but not all routes.

[BrooklynBus]

No Short buses on any SBS or high volume customer line doesnt work. I was really talking about 2 topics on one blog Short Buses doing SBS routes & MTA's Method of finding out ridership through the computer data, and any low floor bus ordered by MTA cannot handle the load as it counterparts of the high floor buses the only ones that can handle the load is the low floor & high floor articulated buses. If the decision was up for a vote I would say all NovaLFS Articulated buses only should be assigned to SBS, but with high volume shortages of buses a short bus has made its way to an SBS route

 

By short buses I was referring to 40 foot buses, not short turns. There is a shortage of articulated buses, but I believe there was a problem with artics making the turns on the local B44, hence the regular length buses on the local route, but only artics on the SBS.

[Mysterious2train]

Simply put, the (B44) is not the (Q37) so to speak. Mid route diversions are good for some routes but not all routes.

 

The proposed B44 LTD re-route can't really be compared to the Q37's.

 

After all, they're being done for completely opposite reasons.

 

The B44's reroute will speed up trips a little and make the route shorter, whereas the Q37 will go out of its way to serve a destination and the trip will be made longer.

 

Unlike the Q37's new routing which isn't necessary to reach its destination, the B44 has to run on either Rogers on New York because those are the Northbound streets adjacent to Nostrand Avenue once it becomes one-way Southbound. Considering that the NB B44 eventually ends up on Bedford Av which Rogers Avenue merges right into, and not Marcy Avenue, which is what New York Avenue turns into above Fulton St, it makes more sense for it to run on Rogers rather than its current route. It's just that the B44 has been the New York Ave bus for such a long time now that it running on Rogers seems like a crazy, foreign idea.

 

If I had to compare the B44 LTD re-route to something, I'd probably compare it to how the Bx5 was taken off of Bruckner Bld and put on Crosby Avenue, and it still runs there now even after the Bx8 has been put back there.

 

Granted, moving the Bx5 didn't really speed up the trip or anything, and it complicated the turn-around at Pelham Bay Park, but I can't really find any other examples to better compare it to

['89 Liberty MCI]

That was the same point I made in an earlier article. Reducing B44 travel time by 4 minutes is not much encouragement to get people to switch to the SBS from those crosstown buses. It will happen during the morning rush hour only because you can get a seat at the Junction. During other times most people will still prefer the Brighton Line. Another disincentive of the Junction is that it is not viewed as a safe place to change to the train especially at night.

 

When you plan by looking at numbers on a piece of paper and never ride a bus and have absolutely no understanding how people make their decisions, you come up with a plan like the proposed B44 SBS as the MTA has done.

 

I should probably speak my mind before you go off about this stuff once more.

 

1. Why do you take always these estimates MTA/DOT made and run with them so that you can tell everybody over and over again how supposedly 'flawed' the B44 SBS plan is?

 

2. How familiar are you with the B44 to be making all of these predictions about what will happen?

 

3. When was the last time you rode the B44?

 

4. How well does the B44 currently adhere to its schedule, for you to make this claim over and over again that many passengers will have longer trips after SBS, when SBS is more frequent, and far more predictable and reliable than local/limited buses?

 

5. Was it not evident in this document (http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/sbs/docs/Nostrand%20Making%20the%20Case%20rev%206%20with%20map.pdf) that the MTA/DOT were pretty conservative in estimating the time savings? Please don't forget that these savings were based on a 75-minute trip. I figured that out by setting up proportions, by the way: 25/x=1/3, x =75 and 19/x=1/4, x =76. 25 minutes and 19 minutes were the projected savings. They used the 25 minutes to correspond to 33% of the original travel time, 19 minutes to correspond to 25%.

 

6. You often place an emphasis on people traveling from Sheepshead Bay/Midwood to a subway. How long does it currently take most people to reach the nearest subway from Knapp St-Shore Pky, Emmons Av-Nostrand Av, Nostrand Av-Av X, Nostrand Av-Av U, Nostrand Av-Kings Hwy, and areas that are close by? When I refer to the nearest subway, I refer to the subway that takes the least amount of time to reach. If you wish to get this information by surveying local residents, please factor in the wait times. If you are just going to use schedules and the MTA trip planner or google transit, you don't have to factor in wait times if you don't want to. I've done this extensively though, so I have an idea of what's going on.

 

7. You also place an emphasis on people traveling from Sheepshead Bay/Midwood to Kings County Hospital to go to work. How long does it currently take these people to get to work if they are using public transportation? This requires a survey, since I would be interested to know how long it takes in practice. Can you provide a ballpark estimate as to how many people that live near the B44, south of Flatbush Avenue, work at Kings County Hospital?

 

8. Instead of directly estimating how much time the B44 SBS will save as MTA/DOT did, wouldn't it make more sense to use my method, which is simply to estimate how much time it should take for a SBS bus to get from one stop to the next? These estimates will be at the end of the paragraph. I tweaked them slightly from what I had before (http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=486768#post486768), but they're not much different. I base my estimates on my past experiences riding SBS buses and even riding local/limited buses, including the B44, and factoring out the amount of time SBS would save in practice due to fewer stops, bus lanes that help mitigate traffic congestion, and off-board fare collection. I should have an idea of this since I've ridden the Bx12 SBS, M15 SBS, and B44 on a number of occasions over the past year. In fact, the B44 should work even better than the Bx12/M15 for the following reasons: ( 1 ) The Bx12 sits in heavy traffic due to the 207 Street Bridge, Major Deegan Expressway, Fordham Plaza, and New England Thruway. The M15 sits in heavy traffic due to the Second Avenue Subway construction, Queensboro Bridge, Queens-Midtown Tunnel, Houston Street, and the narrow Madison Street. The only heavy traffic that the B44 SBS might get caught in, that bus lanes and bus priority signaling can't do anything about, is the BQE traffic on Lee Avenue (which may move slowly, but at least it moves), the traffic near Kings Highway (maybe), and the traffic near the junction (although the bus lanes that will now be on Nostrand Avenue approaching Flatbush Avenue should help, along with the banning of left turns except for buses). ( 2 ) The B44 has less turns than the Bx12 and M15 and uses less-trafficked streets. ( 3 ) The B44 will make more extensive use of offset lanes than the M15 (Bx12 only has curbside lanes on Fordham Road), which are far more effective for SBS buses than curbside lanes. Livingston Street has offset bus lanes.

 

Stop-by-stop estimates, maximum (rush hour) travel time:

 

The format is #1 / #2 / bus stop, where #1 is the number of minutes from the previous stop to the stop in question and #2 is the number of minutes from the first stop to the stop in question.

 

Northbound:

 

0 / 0 / Knapp St-Shore Pky

2 / 2 / Emmons Av-Nostrand Av

3 / 5 / Nostrand Av-Av X

2 / 7 / Nostrand Av-Av U

4 / 11/Nostrand Av-Kings Hwy

5 / 16/Nostrand Av-Flatbush Av

4 / 20/Rogers Av-Av D

3 / 23/Rogers Av-Church Av

2 / 25/Rogers Av-Clarkson Av

3 / 28/Rogers Av-Empire Bl

3 / 31/Rogers Av-St. John's Pl

3 / 34/Bedford Av-Fulton St

3 / 37/Bedford Av-LaFayette Av

3 / 40/Bedford Av-Flushing Av

2 / 42/Bedford Av-Hewes St

1 / 43/Bedford Av-Taylor St

2 / 45/Roebling St-Broadway (outside Washington Plaza)

 

45 minutes total.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Southbound:

 

0 / 0 / Washington Plaza

2 / 2 / Lee Av-Taylor St

2 / 4 / Lee Av-Hewes St

3 / 7 / Lee Av-Flushing Av

3 / 10/Nostrand Av-DeKalb Av

4 / 14/Nostrand Av-Fulton St

3 / 17/Nostrand Av-St. John's Pl

3 / 20/Nostrand Av-Empire Bl

3 / 23/Nostrand Av-Clarkson Av

2 / 25/Nostrand Av-Church Av

3 / 28/Nostrand Av-Newkirk Av

4 / 32/Nostrand Av-Flatbush Av

5 / 37/Nostrand Av-Kings Hwy

4 / 41/Nostrand Av-Av U

2 / 43/Nostrand Av-Av X

2 / 45/Shore Pky-Nostrand Av

1 / 46/Shore Pky-Brigham St

 

46 minutes total.

 

These estimates cannot be very far from what the B44 SBS will actually do. If they are, I will eat my hat. Try matching this to the average amount of travel time per trip of a passenger on the B44 limited. Even after factoring in the 6-minute walk from New York Avenue to Rogers Avenue and the 4-minute walk from Bedford Avenue to Nostrand Avenue on Fulton Street. Even now a lot of trips are faster by subway ( and ) than by bus (B44 limited), especially if traveling relatively long distances. Such trips might only be shorter when the bus is right there. Might.

 

9. If you don't like the stop-by-stop method, then does it satisfy you to use my other method, which I referred to a while back (driving time + stoppage time)? Do either one of these methods make sense to you? I'm speaking as someone who has ridden the Bx12 and M15 SBS on numerous occasions, as well as the B44 limited on a few occasions, all within the past year.

 

32 minutes of driving + (16 stops)(1 minute sitting at each stop)

= 32 + 16 = 48 minutes, which is probably excessive. It's close enough though.

 

10. This question is for anybody that knows the travel patterns of those who use the B44. This only concerns travel in the northbound direction. I know that the B44 is heavily used to travel from the Junction to points along New York Avenue, and to travel from points along New York Avenue to Nostrand Avenue-Fulton Street for the and trains and the numerous stores in that area. How many people use the B44 limited to travel from one point along New York Avenue to another point along New York Avenue, without having transferred to the B44 limited from a crosstown bus and without having the intent to transfer from the B44 limited to a crosstown bus? More specifically, how many people use it to travel from Avenue D to Kings County Hospital or from Kings County Hospital to St. John's Place or Bergen Street? A lot or few?

 

And as for the thing about the junction, I reiterate that anything can happen anywhere. I also reiterate that if a passenger has the choice of either the more spacious articulated bus on the B44 SBS, where s/he doesn't have to sit at each stop waiting for everybody to pay, doesn't deal with all the SNAFUs that s/he deals with on local/limited buses, and feels like s/he is actually getting somewhere; or the smaller bus on the B4 (if the damn thing ever shows up)/B36/B3/B7/B82, the passenger will eventually switch to the B44 SBS and the IRT. Maybe not the day the B44 SBS is implemented, maybe not the following day, maybe not even the following week, but it will happen eventually. The junction is not Broadway Junction or Downtown Jamaica. Even Downtown Jamaica isn't that bad.

 

Personally, I would switch over to the B44 SBS the day they implement it, because I think local/limited buses suck and that they symbolize a lot of pain and suffering. There's a reason why most New Yorkers want to live as close to the subway as possible and want to avoid dealing with local/limited buses at all costs. Then you have the ones that have had so many bad experiences with local/limited buses that they would never even give SBS a chance. Can you blame them?

 

And one more question for you, BrooklynBus: Have you ever ridden SBS? If so, how long ago? How familiar are you with the Bx12 and M15? That includes the local, limited, and SBS versions, as well as pre-SBS days and post-SBS days.

['89 Liberty MCI]

The proposed B44 LTD re-route can't really be compared to the Q37's.

 

After all, they're being done for completely opposite reasons.

 

The B44's reroute will speed up trips a little and make the route shorter, whereas the Q37 will go out of its way to serve a destination and the trip will be made longer.

 

Unlike the Q37's new routing which isn't necessary to reach its destination, the B44 has to run on either Rogers on New York because those are the Northbound streets adjacent to Nostrand Avenue once it becomes one-way Southbound. Considering that the NB B44 eventually ends up on Bedford Av which Rogers Avenue merges right into, and not Marcy Avenue, which is what New York Avenue turns into above Fulton St, it makes more sense for it to run on Rogers rather than its current route. It's just that the B44 has been the New York Ave bus for such a long time now that it running on Rogers seems like a crazy, foreign idea.

 

If I had to compare the B44 LTD re-route to something, I'd probably compare it to how the Bx5 was taken off of Bruckner Bld and put on Crosby Avenue, and it still runs there now even after the Bx8 has been put back there.

 

Granted, moving the Bx5 didn't really speed up the trip or anything, and it complicated the turn-around at Pelham Bay Park, but I can't really find any other examples to better compare it to

 

See, it's not great to cut service, but the B44 SBS plan will help more people than it may hurt in the short run and the long run. Keeping a slow bus on New York Avenue with the subway running parallel on Nostrand Avenue for a large chunk of its route, when you have the ability to speed it up by sending it up Rogers, is a poor idea and is really anti-progress. The name of the game is no pain, no gain. Especially if the replacement (SBS) is going to be as fast as I estimated, thus making most passenger trips faster (even with all the walking they need to do to access the SBS) or just a couple of minutes longer. Because it's not just those passengers that would use SBS, it's also the people living just off Nostrand, people living just off Rogers/Bedford, and people living between Nostrand and Rogers/Bedford. These last three groups of people, who may currently use the B49 to go north (to places like Fulton Street) and the B44 to come back south, will obviously benefit from the SBS since they live right there!

 

And, it could take pressure off the crowded Franklin Avenue shuttle (which cannot take on any more trains since it's a single-track line) since there is probably a decent number of people that take the IRT to Franklin Avenue for the shuttle. Especially if they live on Nostrand. Now they'll be able to reach Fulton just as quickly with the SBS as they can with the subways. Additionally the SBS could very well encourage travel between places like Sheepshead Bay/Midwood/Flatbush/Crown Heights and Williamsburg/Greenpoint/Long Island City/points along the IRT Flushing line and IND Queens Boulevard line. Just transfer to the train at Bedford-Nostrand for the or or at Court Square (if you want to go beyond Court Square). Right now you have to take trains through Manhattan to access those parts of Queens, and if you live in parts of Sheepshead Bay and Midwood that are far from the subways, forget about it.

[checkmatechamp13]

Just a couple of questions:

 

* Are they planning on putting TSP along Nostrand Avenue?

 

* How long is each light cycle? (e.g. If a bus just misses the light, how long before it turns green?)

[Mysterious2train]

'89 Limited MCI: I willl try to answer your walls of text later

 

Just a couple of questions:

 

* Are they planning on putting TSP along Nostrand Avenue?

 

* How long is each light cycle? (e.g. If a bus just misses the light, how long before it turns green?)

 

1. Yes; below Flatbush Ave because most of the route between Flatbush Avenue and Knapp St will be bus lane-less.

 

At one of the Community Board meetings, one of the guys said something about how the TSP wouldn't mesh well with the bus lanes, I don't remember it exactly. Although there is supposed to be a short bus lane around Avenue X. I don't think there are plans for TSP above Flushing Ave, even though there will be no bus lanes there.

 

2. Not sure.

['89 Liberty MCI]

Walls of text. I like that description.

 

Given the fact that Nostrand/Rogers/Bedford Avenues are major thoroughfares that should have priority over crossing streets, I'd say 30 seconds of red for Nostrand/Rogers/Bedford at most intersections. I don't know what it is now, but if it's more than 30 seconds of red it should be cut down to 30. It's easier to synchronize the lights to best enhance traffic flow on one-way streets than on two-way streets. 30 seconds of red, and 60 seconds of green.

 

The only places along the route that should get more than 30 seconds of red (though that my be reduced after SBS, but not necessarily all the way down to 30) are Atlantic Avenue, Linden Blvd, Flatbush Avenue, and Kings Highway. But Atlantic and Linden are in the one-way pair section of the route, so it's harder to judge how long Nostrand/Rogers/Bedford should get the red since one-way streets are supposed to flow.

 

Whatever. I'm not a traffic engineer and I don't know every signal along the B44 SBS corridor, so leave that up to those guys. The M15 SBS would be a good reference for these questions though, since it uses the one-way pair. Although some intersections are anomalies, so of course use your judgment.

[BrooklynBus]

I should probably speak my mind before you go off about this stuff once more.

 

1. Why do you take always these estimates MTA/DOT made and run with them so that you can tell everybody over and over again how supposedly 'flawed' the B44 SBS plan is?

 

2. How familiar are you with the B44 to be making all of these predictions about what will happen?

 

3. When was the last time you rode the B44?

 

4. How well does the B44 currently adhere to its schedule, for you to make this claim over and over again that many passengers will have longer trips after SBS, when SBS is more frequent, and far more predictable and reliable than local/limited buses?

 

5. Was it not evident in this document (http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/sbs/docs/Nostrand%20Making%20the%20Case%20rev%206%20with%20map.pdf) that the MTA/DOT were pretty conservative in estimating the time savings? Please don't forget that these savings were based on a 75-minute trip. I figured that out by setting up proportions, by the way: 25/x=1/3, x =75 and 19/x=1/4, x =76. 25 minutes and 19 minutes were the projected savings. They used the 25 minutes to correspond to 33% of the original travel time, 19 minutes to correspond to 25%.

 

6. You often place an emphasis on people traveling from Sheepshead Bay/Midwood to a subway. How long does it currently take most people to reach the nearest subway from Knapp St-Shore Pky, Emmons Av-Nostrand Av, Nostrand Av-Av X, Nostrand Av-Av U, Nostrand Av-Kings Hwy, and areas that are close by? When I refer to the nearest subway, I refer to the subway that takes the least amount of time to reach. If you wish to get this information by surveying local residents, please factor in the wait times. If you are just going to use schedules and the MTA trip planner or google transit, you don't have to factor in wait times if you don't want to. I've done this extensively though, so I have an idea of what's going on.

 

7. You also place an emphasis on people traveling from Sheepshead Bay/Midwood to Kings County Hospital to go to work. How long does it currently take these people to get to work if they are using public transportation? This requires a survey, since I would be interested to know how long it takes in practice. Can you provide a ballpark estimate as to how many people that live near the B44, south of Flatbush Avenue, work at Kings County Hospital?

 

8. Instead of directly estimating how much time the B44 SBS will save as MTA/DOT did, wouldn't it make more sense to use my method, which is simply to estimate how much time it should take for a SBS bus to get from one stop to the next? These estimates will be at the end of the paragraph. I tweaked them slightly from what I had before (http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=486768#post486768), but they're not much different. I base my estimates on my past experiences riding SBS buses and even riding local/limited buses, including the B44, and factoring out the amount of time SBS would save in practice due to fewer stops, bus lanes that help mitigate traffic congestion, and off-board fare collection. I should have an idea of this since I've ridden the Bx12 SBS, M15 SBS, and B44 on a number of occasions over the past year. In fact, the B44 should work even better than the Bx12/M15 for the following reasons: ( 1 ) The Bx12 sits in heavy traffic due to the 207 Street Bridge, Major Deegan Expressway, Fordham Plaza, and New England Thruway. The M15 sits in heavy traffic due to the Second Avenue Subway construction, Queensboro Bridge, Queens-Midtown Tunnel, Houston Street, and the narrow Madison Street. The only heavy traffic that the B44 SBS might get caught in, that bus lanes and bus priority signaling can't do anything about, is the BQE traffic on Lee Avenue (which may move slowly, but at least it moves), the traffic near Kings Highway (maybe), and the traffic near the junction (although the bus lanes that will now be on Nostrand Avenue approaching Flatbush Avenue should help, along with the banning of left turns except for buses). ( 2 ) The B44 has less turns than the Bx12 and M15 and uses less-trafficked streets. ( 3 ) The B44 will make more extensive use of offset lanes than the M15 (Bx12 only has curbside lanes on Fordham Road), which are far more effective for SBS buses than curbside lanes. Livingston Street has offset bus lanes.

 

Stop-by-stop estimates, maximum (rush hour) travel time:

 

The format is #1 / #2 / bus stop, where #1 is the number of minutes from the previous stop to the stop in question and #2 is the number of minutes from the first stop to the stop in question.

 

Northbound:

 

0 / 0 / Knapp St-Shore Pky

2 / 2 / Emmons Av-Nostrand Av

3 / 5 / Nostrand Av-Av X

2 / 7 / Nostrand Av-Av U

4 / 11/Nostrand Av-Kings Hwy

5 / 16/Nostrand Av-Flatbush Av

4 / 20/Rogers Av-Av D

3 / 23/Rogers Av-Church Av

2 / 25/Rogers Av-Clarkson Av

3 / 28/Rogers Av-Empire Bl

3 / 31/Rogers Av-St. John's Pl

3 / 34/Bedford Av-Fulton St

3 / 37/Bedford Av-LaFayette Av

3 / 40/Bedford Av-Flushing Av

2 / 42/Bedford Av-Hewes St

1 / 43/Bedford Av-Taylor St

2 / 45/Roebling St-Broadway (outside Washington Plaza)

 

45 minutes total.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Southbound:

 

0 / 0 / Washington Plaza

2 / 2 / Lee Av-Taylor St

2 / 4 / Lee Av-Hewes St

3 / 7 / Lee Av-Flushing Av

3 / 10/Nostrand Av-DeKalb Av

4 / 14/Nostrand Av-Fulton St

3 / 17/Nostrand Av-St. John's Pl

3 / 20/Nostrand Av-Empire Bl

3 / 23/Nostrand Av-Clarkson Av

2 / 25/Nostrand Av-Church Av

3 / 28/Nostrand Av-Newkirk Av

4 / 32/Nostrand Av-Flatbush Av

5 / 37/Nostrand Av-Kings Hwy

4 / 41/Nostrand Av-Av U

2 / 43/Nostrand Av-Av X

2 / 45/Shore Pky-Nostrand Av

1 / 46/Shore Pky-Brigham St

 

46 minutes total.

 

These estimates cannot be very far from what the B44 SBS will actually do. If they are, I will eat my hat. Try matching this to the average amount of travel time per trip of a passenger on the B44 limited. Even after factoring in the 6-minute walk from New York Avenue to Rogers Avenue and the 4-minute walk from Bedford Avenue to Nostrand Avenue on Fulton Street. Even now a lot of trips are faster by subway ( and ) than by bus (B44 limited), especially if traveling relatively long distances. Such trips might only be shorter when the bus is right there. Might.

 

9. If you don't like the stop-by-stop method, then does it satisfy you to use my other method, which I referred to a while back (driving time + stoppage time)? Do either one of these methods make sense to you? I'm speaking as someone who has ridden the Bx12 and M15 SBS on numerous occasions, as well as the B44 limited on a few occasions, all within the past year.

 

32 minutes of driving + (16 stops)(1 minute sitting at each stop)

= 32 + 16 = 48 minutes, which is probably excessive. It's close enough though.

 

10. This question is for anybody that knows the travel patterns of those who use the B44. This only concerns travel in the northbound direction. I know that the B44 is heavily used to travel from the Junction to points along New York Avenue, and to travel from points along New York Avenue to Nostrand Avenue-Fulton Street for the and trains and the numerous stores in that area. How many people use the B44 limited to travel from one point along New York Avenue to another point along New York Avenue, without having transferred to the B44 limited from a crosstown bus and without having the intent to transfer from the B44 limited to a crosstown bus? More specifically, how many people use it to travel from Avenue D to Kings County Hospital or from Kings County Hospital to St. John's Place or Bergen Street? A lot or few?

 

And as for the thing about the junction, I reiterate that anything can happen anywhere. I also reiterate that if a passenger has the choice of either the more spacious articulated bus on the B44 SBS, where s/he doesn't have to sit at each stop waiting for everybody to pay, doesn't deal with all the SNAFUs that s/he deals with on local/limited buses, and feels like s/he is actually getting somewhere; or the smaller bus on the B4 (if the damn thing ever shows up)/B36/B3/B7/B82, the passenger will eventually switch to the B44 SBS and the IRT. Maybe not the day the B44 SBS is implemented, maybe not the following day, maybe not even the following week, but it will happen eventually. The junction is not Broadway Junction or Downtown Jamaica. Even Downtown Jamaica isn't that bad.

 

Personally, I would switch over to the B44 SBS the day they implement it, because I think local/limited buses suck and that they symbolize a lot of pain and suffering. There's a reason why most New Yorkers want to live as close to the subway as possible and want to avoid dealing with local/limited buses at all costs. Then you have the ones that have had so many bad experiences with local/limited buses that they would never even give SBS a chance. Can you blame them?

 

And one more question for you, BrooklynBus: Have you ever ridden SBS? If so, how long ago? How familiar are you with the Bx12 and M15? That includes the local, limited, and SBS versions, as well as pre-SBS days and post-SBS days.

 

I'll try to answer:

 

1. Because the plan is flawed. My biggest problem is that they do not tell you the whole story, only the half they want you to hear. Since they give an estimate of the number of total minutes bus passengers will save, they also need to estimate the number of minutes cars will have to spend more in traffic and the average # of people per car to compare their total minutes lost. They are doubling the service on Rogers Avenue and halving the service on New York Avenue. They should have rerouted the B49 and replaced NY Avenue service with alternate service instead of assuming that everyone will walk from Rogers Avenue to NY Avenue which will not happen. Also, I couldn't find in the report how often the local B44 will operate which I believe will be overcrowded while the SBS will have plenty of room.

 

2. I am familiar enough with buses to know that the average walk for the B44 SBS passenger will be 7 blocks or 7 minutes. That means the maximum walk will be about 15 blocks or 15 minutes unless significant numbers transfer between the local and the SBS which I don't think will happen since the average trip length is 2.3 miles. I can only see someone walking 15 blocks to or from the SBS if he has a zero walk on the other end. No one is going to be willing to do that at both ends because his walking time will most likely be greater than his riding time.

 

3. I don't remember.

 

4. When you factor in walking time and the fact that the SBS will have 22 fewer stops than the Limited, I think some Limited passengers will switch to the local unless the local service is so poor and overcrowded that they will have no alternative but to use the SBS. (If transferring between the local and SBS did not count as a transfer, many more people will transfer between the local and SBS lowering the number of passengers who will switch from the Limited to the Local.) Those former Limited passengers switching to the Local will have longer trips. When I said that SBS passengers will have longer trips because of extra walking, I wasn't aware that the MTA factored walking distances into their calculations because they have not released any details about the model they are using. If their model is accurate and they did consider walking distance in addition to bus travel time, then of course the trip will be faster for those using the SBS.

 

5. I think the bus will save about 20 minutes.

 

6. From all the locations you mentioned, I believe passengers will go to the Brighton Line. Here are my approximate travel times:

 

Knapp Shore - 20 min

Emmons Nostrand - 17 min

Nos X - 15 min

Nos U - 11 min

Nos R - 13 min

Nos KH - 9 min

 

7. From Avenue U to Kings County Hospital on the local I would say it would take about 43 minutes and 37 on the Limited, and about 30 on the SBS. I wouldn't even guess how many people make the trip.

 

8. & 9 The only way the SBS could make the times you allow is if you allow zero time for boarding or ( you assume no red lights. That is the only way I could see the trip completed in 45 minutes. The MTA estimates between 43 and 58 minutes. I can't see it taking less than about 49 minutes under the best of circumstances.

 

No. I have never ridden on an SBS bus. I almost took the M15 a few months ago, but decided to walk to the subway instead.

['89 Liberty MCI]

And the writing on the walls of text continues...

 

But how can you say I allow zero time for boarding and assume that the vehicle will stop at no red signals, when I factored in one minute for each time the vehicle stops at a bus stop, which is probably an excessive amount of time for the vehicle to stop at a bus stop, drop off and pick up the people, and sit at a red signal on a busy thoroughfare such as Rogers, Bedford, or Nostrand Avenue?

 

And that is the worst-case scenario, because the times I've been on the Bx12 and M15 SBS, the bus certainly has not been caught by a red signal at every single stop along the route. And, the amount of time I factored in probably does more than enough to account for places along the route where the bus is stopped for more than a minute. It averages out. For example you could perhaps spend 30 seconds stopped at Emmons Avenue-Nostrand Avenue, but then spend 90 seconds stopped at Nostrand Avenue-Flatbush Avenue. It averages out to 60. If the bus doesn't hit a red signal on its way to a bus stop or on its way from a bus stop, then 25 seconds is plenty of time for the bus to sit at a heavy stop such as Fulton Street southbound or Church Avenue northbound. For the stops closer to the end of the line where practically nobody gets on, 10 seconds is plenty of time.

 

If I had allowed no time for boarding and assumed that the vehicle stopped at no red signals, I would have simply used the 32 minutes as an estimate of how long it takes a SBS bus to make the trip, when that would have been ludicrous because I know that the vehicle has to service stops.

 

SBS buses don't usually get caught at red signals that are far away from bus stops either. Especially on one-way streets. If a SBS bus gets caught at a red signal, it usually goes as follows for a near-side bus stop: Make the stop, drop 'em off and pick 'em up, sit at the red, wait for the green, move. For a far-side bus stop, it's: Make the stop, drop 'em off and pick 'em up, leave the stop, sit at the red (if the signal is red), when it becomes green, move.

 

So you either get caught at the red that's right in front of the stop, or you get caught at the red that's at the next intersection if it's one of the longer blocks (like the block on Nostrand between Av X-Av W, Av U-Av T vs shorter blocks like Fulton St-Herkimer St, St. John's Pl-Lincoln Pl, Empire Blvd-Sterling St). It's not like you leave 2nd Street and suddenly get caught at a red in the middle of nowhere at 7th Street when your next bus stop is 14th. No, if you caught at a red in there someplace, you either caught the red while stopped at 2nd Street or you catch the red while stopped at 14th Street.

 

In the case of the B44, some blocks are too long for the SBS/local bus stop to occupy the entire block. So in the case of Avenue U going northbound, for example (bus stop is on the far side, or north side of Avenue U), a bus would likely enter the stop on a green signal, drop off, pick up, and then leave. During this process the signals turn red. At that point if the signal at Avenue T is still red when the bus reaches T, it will change to green in 15 seconds at most.

 

I have to say, the fact that you haven't been on the B44 in such a long time and have never ridden a SBS bus doesn't do much for all of your arguments against the B44 SBS, or any strong claim you make about SBS in general, whether it be pro-SBS or anti-SBS. Or pro-B44 SBS or anti-B44 SBS since that's really what you're after. I honestly thought from the time you started writing about how 'flawed' the B44 SBS is that you haven't personally experienced SBS for yourself. Given the fact that you've basically written a book about the B44 SBS over the past year and you mention it at every available opportunity, I think it would have been wiser for you to go out and see it for yourself so that you could better back up your arguments. Even then, we do not know what will happen because the Bx12 SBS, M15 SBS, and B44 limited are not the B44 SBS, which is not even alive and breathing yet.

 

How is the walk going to take a total of 15 minutes for the average B44 SBS passenger? Going northbound, most people would/could/currently do (depending on circumstances) ride to either Avenue U for the B3, Kings Highway for the B7/B82, or Flatbush Avenue to take the IRT to Manhattan. There is a large number of apartment buildings by the first stop, there are the buildings just west of Nostrand along the north side of the Belt Pkwy, the projects and apartment buildings by Avenue X, a large number of apartment buildings between R and U, and buildings along Kings Highway near Nostrand. If we assume that those who currently use the Avenue R stop decide not to use the SBS, then all these other people I mentioned are looking at (at most) an additional 6 minutes of walking. So where do the other 9 minutes come from? People who want to go to Kings County or some other place along New York Avenue, to where they do not currently travel in droves? Even if somebody did do that, it would take an additional 6 minutes because of the walk from Rogers to New York. I'm not quite following you on this one. To me, it looks like most of those people that live south of the junction want to reach Manhattan, in which case they would (if they switched to SBS) transfer to the IRT to go to Manhattan. It takes all of one minute to get off the bus, go downstairs into the station, go through the turnstile, and board the train.

 

Yes, on paper the B44 SBS doesn't shave off a whole lot of travel time required to reach a subway. I'll give you that. However in practice, local and limited buses practically have to be babysat by the operating company and require everybody to exhibit perfect behavior in order for them to work properly, when in fact nobody is perfect. It is not pleasant for one to be carrying several items or to have a small, energetic child that s/he must keep under control while simultaneously fumbling for the metrocard or change, all the while the bus operator or passengers are staring at said person like s/he has a third eye in the middle of his/her head. Additionally even if all this does not happen, there are still psychological factors to take into account. For example the few times my father rides buses, he tells me "you can't get anywhere on a bus" and laments the fact that they stop every 2-3 blocks and all the other related SNAFUs. Again, local and limited buses have such a bad reputation because they are flawed by design. They don't promote sustainable socioeconomic growth [as effectively as trains or SBS do] because increasing numbers of additional passengers that use them add a significant amount of travel time. And they can be quite costly to operate due to their inefficiency, which has been the case forever.

 

Assuming that you spend the same amount of time waiting for a Brighton line train or a Nostrand line train at Flatbush, the BMT does get you to Union Square/Times Square/Herald Square faster than the IRT. But not by much. I believe that while the B44 SBS may not become the everyday bus of choice for Manhattan-bound transit commuters from Sheepshead Bay and Midwood, it at least provides an additional viable means of transportation. Instead of having to use the B4/B36/B3/B7/B82 over the B44 (current situation), one will simply be able to take whichever bus arrives first after they implement SBS. And if that person is me or somebody else that likes SBS enough and isn't particularly concerned with avoiding the junction, that person will not go back to the crosstown buses for his/her daily commute.

 

Someone switching from the limited to the local will not add much time to his/her commute because the limited currently saves little time over the local, especially going up New York Avenue and especially south of East New York Avenue. As is the case with any limited bus route. Even more so on the B44 since most people don't ride the B44 for very long distances. True, there is the longer wait time due to the local being the only service at many stops, but if the SBS is as fast as I estimated then a decent amount of people, especially those traveling to Nostrand Avenue-Fulton Street and points west of Nostrand Avenue along Fulton Street northbound, will go to the SBS even if they have to walk to Rogers Avenue. And for people below Empire Blvd, that will be faster than the current limited even if you include the walks.

 

Allan, it is my opinion that you have done more than enough to make your point about how flawed you believe the B44 SBS plan is. You have been writing about this and making these strong contentions for nearly a year. I have responded to you at great length on a few occasions because I disagree with many of your arguments. The B44 SBS is supposed to start over a year from now, and I think it's time to sit back and see what will happen before jumping to conclusions. That goes for me as well since this debate we are having is based on something that does not yet exist.

[B35 via Church]

8. & 9 The only way the SBS could make the times you allow is if you allow zero time for boarding or ( you assume no red lights. That is the only way I could see the trip completed in 45 minutes. The MTA estimates between 43 and 58 minutes. I can't see it taking less than about 49 minutes under the best of circumstances.

 

*nods head*

I have to agree with this....

 

I can't fathom an average trip on (would be) SBS buses along an (altered) B44 route taking 45 minutes from end to end... 89 Liberty's being too generous with that guesstimation IMO......

------

 

 

89 Liberty MCI....

 

BrooklynBus has his reasons, and I have mine..... Mine are not as "involved" as his.... Although I do agree that he goes above & beyond (and in depth) as to why he doesn't approve of a B44 +SBS+....

(has it really been a year though; iono, guess it does seem like it...)

 

The main reason I'm against the thing is b/c it'll end up takin LTD service off NY av (and moving it onto some dam Rogers av)....

 

All this about traffic lights and what not, is of no concern to me... when we're talkin about giving a corridor (at least) double the service where it isn't needed (rogers does NOT need the 49 & the 44, I'm sorry), and robbing another corridor of overall service (I don't see them putting more local service on NY av as a result, either)....

 

as for this snippet:

 

This question is for anybody that knows the travel patterns of those who use the B44. This only concerns travel in the northbound direction.....

 

.....How many people use the B44 limited to travel from one point along New York Avenue to another point along New York Avenue, without having transferred to the B44 limited from a crosstown bus and without having the intent to transfer from the B44 limited to a crosstown bus? More specifically, how many people use it to travel from Avenue D to Kings County Hospital or from Kings County Hospital to St. John's Place or Bergen Street? A lot or few?

 

not a fair question.... that's like askin, how many ppl take the 2 train between flatbush and franklin without gettin off at franklin itself to catch the 4, the shuttle, or whatever..... of course it's gonna be a few.... does that somehow make the 2 train less important within Brooklyn or somethin......

 

With that point, are you really implicating that LTD usage on the B44 along NY av is of little to no importance or something.... doesn't matter what 2 random points along the route you wanna pick & choose either.... I'd be damned if I'm gonna sit up here & say & believe that NY av should only have locals running along it....

 

Better yet, I still have yet to hear anyone's answer as to why Rogers av "deserves"/needs LTD/SBS service.... they would have threw them on NB B49's already if that were the case (which is another topic for another time).....

[Mysterious2train]

I don't think Rogers Avenue needs extra service. I don't think the thinks so either. The only benefits from this move would be the faster trips and the quicker trips for people along Rogers and Bedford (although that's more of a bonus than a legitimate reason for the move).

 

To be honest, I don't totally think the move is worth it.

[B35 via Church]

I don't think Rogers Avenue needs extra service. I don't think the thinks so either. The only benefits from this move would be the faster trips and the quicker trips for people along Rogers and Bedford (although that's more of a bonus than a legitimate reason for the move).

 

To be honest, I don't totally think the move is worth it.

 

If you were referring to my post, it's not about the MTA thinkin that Rogers av needs the service.... it's more a retort that's aimed at these pro B44 +SBS+ guys....

 

While I don't know if '89 Liberty feels as such, there are other B44 SBS supporters that feel that way.... I've heard the *I won't have to deal with the 41 or the 49 anymore when this happens* type of remarks.... current riders actually seeking Rogers av riders cannot possibly outnumber that are seeking NY av.... No need to bring up Nostrand, b/c the SB routing/corridor will be unchanged....

 

If folks are gonna say what's on NY av that's so important, I can make the same lame duck argument about Rogers..... furthermore, the more east of Rogers you go in this part of the borough, the more residents there are within flatbush... east flatbush... crown heights, etc.... I know that, and you know that too... So I'm like, in what, or how grand can a B44 SBS along Rogers really be beneficial... and I'm not buying there are that many riders goin from south of the junction to bed stuy or williamsburg....

 

But yeah, overall, I also think it's not worth it...

[BrooklynBus]

To '89 Liberty MCI

 

45 minutes is just unrealistic. The MTA is allowing between 45 and 58 minutes so is your 45 minutes under the best of circumstances or at all times? I'd have to go back to their report but if I remember it, they stated that they currently allow 50 minutes for the local to make the trip in the middle of the night. How many passengers use the bus at 1 hour headways and how many stops do you think it makes at that time? Let's say since the SBS is shorter, that a local operating on the SBS route would take 45 minutes in the middle of the night when it hardly has to make any stops for passengers because there are so few. You are allowing that same amount of time when passengers would be constantly getting on and off during the day. That's why I feel it is not enough.

 

No, they certainly won't miss every red light and they will miss fewer than the Limited does today, but they still will miss some. The lights are cycled so that if there is not too much traffic you will make all the green lights if you don't have to stop, but the SBS will have to stop and when it does, it will miss the light even if there is only an average 15 second wait at most stops.

 

As you've said, Nostrand Avenue is not the M15 or the Bx 12, so I don't think it matters that I haven't ridden those routes.

 

How is the walk going to take an average of 15 minutes for the SBS passenger?

 

Let's look at the B44 service area in Sheepshead Bay. It stretches from Bedford Avenue to Knapp Street. SBS stops are spaced about every half mile. That means if you live on Nostrand Avenue, your maximum walk is a quarter-mile to an SBS stop. If you live on Bedford Ave or Knapp Street, you have over a quarter-mile walk just to get to Nostrand Avenue so for those people the walk to the SBS would be a half mile or an 8 to 10 minute walk for a fast walker for those people. A few people living near Avenue L and Bedford, or Avenue R and Bedford or in Marine Park would have a three-quarter mile walk to an SBS stop. So I would say the average walk would be just under a half mile. Don't forget you have to walk at both ends, so the average fast walking SBS user will be walking 16 to 20 minutes to use the bus. For a slower walker, an elderly person perhaps, who doesn't walk as fast, it would be 20 to 30 minutes of walking for the average passenger.

 

From the walking times you requested and I gave you, I think it's obvious that it will still take the same time to use a crosstown bus to get to the Brighton Line as it would take to use the SBS to get to the Junction and now with the Brighton Express back, some subway trips would be faster with the Brighton Line. And as far as your discussion about people not exhibiting perfect behavior on local buses that tend to slow them up, I agree with you. But why would SBS be immune? People with strollers and energetic kids will still be allowed on the SBS to mess them up too.

 

Yes, local buses are a pain and very slow especially when you need to take one for a long distance. I know and yes, something needs to be done. And yes, SBS will be a big help for those who ride the B44 for long distances, especially the students of which there are many on the B44. No one is denying that a select few will be helped a lot and will think this is the greatest transportation improvement they have ever seen. I am not debating that.

 

But the larger question is can simliar savings be achieved by other means such as better enforcement against illegal parking without the expense and disruption of SBS and is choosing a route where the average trip length is 2.3 miles and the average savings only 4.4 minutes the best route to choose? And who is looking at the non-bus users who are inconvenienced? Why is it that they don't matter? The MTA needs to do a fair analysis and consider all the facts and share all information with the communities, not only the facts that helps prove their case.

 

Okay, the route has been chosen, but it still is not time to sit back and say nothing when it can be improved. The MTA should not count a transfer between the local and the SBS as the one transfer you are allowed so that more people could benefit from SBS and reduce those walking distances so some riders do not incur a fare penalty by switching to SBS from the local.

 

Unlike B35 via Church, I don't have a problem with the B44 route on Rogers. My problem is why are they not rerouting the B49 elsewhere like to Ocean Avenue which is lined with six story apartment houses instead of providing a glut of service on Rogers Avenue. And why no route will supplement the B44 along NY Avenue which will have much reduced service?

 

Yes, some people will walk from Rogers to NY Avenue, but who will walk from Rogers to Brooklyn Avenue? (The MTA will brag about how patronage will have nearly doubled on the B44, but don't forget they are increasing the service by something like 50% over the Limited as well as increasing the number of seats greatly. Any time you increase service you get more riders so some of the increased ridership won't even be due to SBS, but just because of the more frequent service, but the MTA will credit SBS anyway. All this will be at the expense of local riders who will probably get reduced service and more crowded buses which the MTA will just gloss over when they do their report.

 

Yes, there are many flaws in the B44 SBS. Why should I just sit back to see what happens when changes could be made to reduce those flaws and the MTA insists on providiing only the facts it wants to that helps its case instead of an honest analysis?

['89 Liberty MCI]

If you had ever ridden the M15 SBS along 1st Avenue (not 2nd Avenue since with the highways and bridges feeding into it, you can't compare 2nd Avenue to Rogers/Bedford/Nostrand Avenues), especially for the maximum length (1 Av-2 St to 1 Av-125 St, or even Allen St-Grand St to 1 Av-125 St), you wouldn't be telling me that 45 minutes is unrealistic. So yes, your lack of personal experience with SBS does matter since the M15 is quite similar to the B44 due to its use of the one-way pair.

 

When I was talking about people who would use SBS, I kept it restricted to those who can access SBS stops just as easily as they can access crosstown bus stops. I didn't include those who live a more reasonable distance from crosstown bus stops than they do from SBS bus stops. Nobody, not even MTA should expect them to switch to SBS to reach a subway.

 

Strollers, children, and whatnot do not significantly delay trips when there are 3 entry doors instead of 1 and the person with the stroller/child(ren) (as well as all other SBS passengers) pays at the machine before the bus arrives (or when it's there, if it's sitting at a red signal) and the bus does not have to wait for him/her to pay if it has a green signal. Just like the subway, but with more red signals.

 

Sure, a delay can occur if the person has to practically drag the child into the bus because the child doesn't want to go anywhere, but this is not the same as having to manage the child while simultaneously fumbling for a metrocard at the front of a bus with a fare-collecting farebox. Strollers? Fold that stroller outside the bus, before the bus gets there. The bus gets there and you still haven't folded it, and then the signal turns green before you can finish folding it? You wait for the next one since the passengers on the bus have places to go. What's somebody going to do, put the stroller halfway in the door and then stand there folding it with their foot in the door so the bus operator can't close the door and the bus can't move? Indeed!

 

Buses have always suffered more than cars. Bus passengers have always had more to contend with than motorists. Public transportation has been underfunded going back many years. You can't make progress by bending over backwards to please everybody.

 

45-46 minutes (method I) or 48 minutes (method II) is under the worst of circumstances, during the rush hour, as I wrote in post #37.

[Trainmaster5]

Questions for you guys from an old Brooklynite. If the SBS stop n/b is at Bedford-Fulton is the pushing riders toward the IND Franklin Ave station? Unless the entrance at Bedford-Fulton is re-opened it's a slightly shorter walk to Franklin than the Nostrand express station. What is the reason for NOT re-routing the B49 along Ocean Ave and the BMT stations on the Brighton line? If they don't consider it I guess the next step (give it 3-5 years) is for the to declare the B49 north of Flatbush Ave to be redundant along Rogers Ave and eliminate that section. Remember that I lived in that corridor most of my life and remember when Nostrand and Rogers were 2-way streets. I put no trust in the city or the and their studies. BTW Linden Boulevard is also Route 27 and would have priority over any n/b street ie Nostrand , Rogers when it comes to signal priority normally. I 've seen it myself and heard it from Sanitation workers when it comes to snow removal. Supposedly Route 27- Linden Blvd-Conduit-Sunrise Highway is a state road maintained by NYC, Nassau and Suffolk counties and the jurisdictions it passes through from BK to Montauk so I'm not sure if those travel times on the SBS are realistic.