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Via Garibaldi 8

Staten Island's MTA board member Allen Cappelli calls for toll equity

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http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/staten_islands_mta_board_membe.html

 

My question is whether or not these new/re-vitalized rail links would mean a reduction is bus service on the island?

 

As for the whole toll topic, I think the tolls should be put in other places. We have too many folks coming through Staten Island from NJ and so on and polluting and not paying anything. :mad:

 

For all of these folks whining about the tolls the traffic certainly is getting worse. Cars all over the place.... ;)

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The megaprojects listed aren't going to happen. They are testing the removal of garbage cans from stations because it costs too much to take the garbage out. They are running the MCIs into the ground on Staten Island. What makes anyone think that the new tolls will be used to do anything but get the city off the hook for a subsidy?

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The megaprojects listed aren't going to happen. They are testing the removal of garbage cans from stations because it costs too much to take the garbage out. They are running the MCIs into the ground on Staten Island. What makes anyone think that the new tolls will be used to do anything but get the city off the hook for a subsidy?

 

 

Running the MCIs into the ground? I think that's a bit of an exaggeration if anything. Castleton has the oldest express bus fleet in the system, and that's more or less true about most of the express bus fleet on Staten Island. So there's nothing to run into the ground because we have old hand-me-downs anyway. The only exception is Yukon and Charleston because Charleston has some 43XXs and Yukon has some 43XXs and 22XXs.

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Today i saw an MCI billowing smoke you would have thought a building fell or the bus was about to explode.... Idk if it was a Staten Island MCI.

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Today i saw an MCI billowing smoke you would have thought a building fell or the bus was about to explode.... Idk if it was a Staten Island MCI.

 

lol... Where was this at? :eek:

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http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/staten_islands_mta_board_membe.html

 

My question is whether or not these new/re-vitalized rail links would mean a reduction is bus service on the island?

 

 

* If you get a ton of new development, then no, because you'll have enough ridership to keep service levels the same on the bus, and run good rail service as well.

 

* If things remain more or less the same, then yes, because the bus will probably lose a ton of ridership.

 

But in either case, the area will be better off with the rail line than without it, assuming everything is done right.

 

For instance, on the North Shore Rail Line, they would discontinue the S40 exntirely and discontinue the S46 west of Morningstar Road. That would mean that the northern section of Mariners' Harbor would be left with no service.

 

Instead, what they should do is route the S46 to run via Castleton Avenue->Nicholas Avenue->Richmond Terrace, providing basic coverage in the area. Everybody going to the ferry takes the train, and everybody going short distances takes the S46.

 

For service east of Port Richmond, you could extend the S57 to St. George, so they don't have to walk a long distance to reach a bus for local travel.

 

Ideally, the S40 and S46 would be able to remain as is (with reduced frequencies), but there might not be enough ridership for that. But in either case, that's a weak reason to oppose the rail line.

 

In the article, the thing that stood out to me was his insistance that they send the routes inside the college. As somebody who lives west of CSI (and attends classes, so I would benefit), I think it's a terrible idea. You're adding a bunch of time for the people coming from St. George and besides: You have a shuttle to St. George and a shuttle within the campus, so there's no need.

 

The megaprojects listed aren't going to happen. They are testing the removal of garbage cans from stations because it costs too much to take the garbage out. They are running the MCIs into the ground on Staten Island. What makes anyone think that the new tolls will be used to do anything but get the city off the hook for a subsidy?

 

But even if that happened, would it really be the worst thing? Pollution would probably decrease somewhat, and revenue for the MTA would increase.

 

Besides, the city isn't contributing its fair share to the MTA anyway. They gave $45 million towards Student MetroCards (and the state gave $25 million), and the program cost $214 million. That means that at the very least, the city would need to pay another $144 million out of (I think) $500 million in potential revenue.

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Good lord, $214 mil for that bottomless pit of a program? Cut the funding asap! Those kids add nothing but noise and discomfort to the other riders. Even if they paid half, it's still too much for the MTA alone to support the bulk of that program.

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But even if that happened, would it really be the worst thing? Pollution would probably decrease somewhat, and revenue for the MTA would increase.

 

Besides, the city isn't contributing its fair share to the MTA anyway. They gave $45 million towards Student MetroCards (and the state gave $25 million), and the program cost $214 million. That means that at the very least, the city would need to pay another $144 million out of (I think) $500 million in potential revenue.

 

Yes, it would be terrible because toll revenue will fall below projections and a toll hike from $0 to $6.50 one way would cause traffic to crater on those bridges.

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Yes, it would be terrible because toll revenue will fall below projections and a toll hike from $0 to $6.50 one way would cause traffic to crater on those bridges.

 

I disagree. People have been running to those tolls because they're free. If these folks can afford to drive to work then let them pay more then. It's not about sharing the pain per se, but why should Staten Island pay some of the highest tolls in the country while NO other borough has these high tolls? Either everybody pays or no one pays or everybody pays the same and Staten Island is getting slammed in tolls. I actually don't pay them because I use the express bus, but that's not the point. It hurts business in the region and hurts the local economy, so this needs to be resolved in a way that is fair for all boroughs.

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Capelli says you can travel between all the boroughs except Staten Island for free, so he wants tolls everywhere. But that doesn't solve the inequity because SI will then have to pay two tolls to get into Manhattan while everyone else pays one, so he probably will then want SI residents to get a credit for one of the tolls.

 

First of all, a large percentage of Staten Islanders work in Jersey and have no need to get to the rest of the City. And if he wants to talk about inequities why does he not care about Brooklynites who work in Staten Island who pay twice as much as (or much more) as do Staten Islanders who make the same trip but in the reverse direction. Because he is from Staten Island that's why. We need more people who care about everyone, not parochial thinkers who only care about themselves.

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Capelli says you can travel between all the boroughs except Staten Island for free, so he wants tolls everywhere. But that doesn't solve the inequity because SI will then have to pay two tolls to get into Manhattan while everyone else pays one, so he probably will then want SI residents to get a credit for one of the tolls.

 

First of all, a large percentage of Staten Islanders work in Jersey and have no need to get to the rest of the City. And if he wants to talk about inequities why does he not care about Brooklynites who work in Staten Island who pay twice as much as (or much more) as do Staten Islanders who make the same trip but in the reverse direction. Because he is from Staten Island that's why. We need more people who care about everyone, not parochial thinkers who only care about themselves.

 

Brooklynites working on Staten Island are quite small. Aside from that, Staten Islanders are facing the biggest tolls out of all of the boroughs so where is fairness in that? Whether we go to New Jersey or New York, we got socked if we use a car. :tdown::tdown:

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Brooklynites working on Staten Island are quite small. Aside from that, Staten Islanders are facing the biggest tolls out of all of the boroughs so where is fairness in that? Whether we go to New Jersey or New York, we got socked if we use a car. :tdown::tdown:

 

I should have said working in Staten Island or passing through to New Jersey. I'm sure that number would not be insignificant.

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Many regional planning groups want to increase the amount of through traffic to NJ using SI rather than Canal St. That's a good idea.

 

What I would do is toll all the East River bridges, de-toll the Henry Hudson, and 2-way toll the VZ (that'll actually increase revenue). And why not 2-way the Goethals and Outerbridge?

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Many regional planning groups want to increase the amount of through traffic to NJ using SI rather than Canal St. That's a good idea.

 

What I would do is toll all the East River bridges, de-toll the Henry Hudson, and 2-way toll the VZ (that'll actually increase revenue). And why not 2-way the Goethals and Outerbridge?

 

Well good luck with that idea. The tolls off of Staten Island on the Verrazano were removed some time ago to stop just what you're proposing and thank God for that. More geniuses like you out there would just make matters worse. :tdown::tdown:

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Well good luck with that idea. The tolls off of Staten Island on the Verrazano were removed some time ago to stop just what you're proposing and thank God for that. More geniuses like you out there would just make matters worse. :tdown::tdown:

 

I always thought the one-way toll on the Verrazano was a mistake especially for trucks. Too much unneeded traffic on Canal Street to take advantage of the no toll eastbound.

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Good lord, $214 mil for that bottomless pit of a program? Cut the funding asap! Those kids add nothing but noise and discomfort to the other riders. Even if they paid half, it's still too much for the MTA alone to support the bulk of that program.

 

And how did you (and Via Garibaldi) get to school? Thought so.

 

And I'll have you know, I have a 100+ average (though Via Garibaldi would question how I got that average. ;) ) and quietly take my seat on the bus. Yeah, there are plenty of kids who make a lot of noise, but to generalize all students like that is just stupid.

 

Like I said, if they want to overhaul the system, make it so that you get a Student MetroCard if you have an 85+ average, or a recommendation from a teacher (or for middle/high school, make it 3 teachers). You might not weed out all of the noisemakers, but you'll weed out the worst of them.

 

We need more people who care about everyone, not parochial thinkers who only care about themselves.

 

Agreed. I mean, a lot of SIers act like we're the only borough with transportation problems. Every borough has transportation problems to a certain extent, though they are different from ours.

 

I should have said working in Staten Island or passing through to New Jersey. I'm sure that number would not be insignificant.

 

Very true. In fact, my dad used to make the Brooklyn-SI commute and the expense of commuting was definitely taken into consideration. I mean, the EZ-Pass toll is $9.60, and it comes out to be slightly over $200 a month on tolls alone (plus gas, maintainance, etc).

 

Well good luck with that idea. The tolls off of Staten Island on the Verrazano were removed some time ago to stop just what you're proposing and thank God for that. More geniuses like you out there would just make matters worse. :tdown::tdown:

 

A two-way toll would result in it being halved in each direction. Right now, the cash toll is $13 for the Verrazanno Bridge one-way, and the cash toll for the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel is $6.50 one-way.

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And if they implemented tolls again (impossible given they've removed most, if not all, of the old Brooklyn-bound tolls) for people going the other way, he'd complain about pollution.

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If the city is willing to run every single bus route that there is demand for, I will support East River bridge tolls. It will get everyone out of the way when I use the Brooklyn Bridge. However, every additional tax comes with promises that are broken. Remember how the payroll tax was supposed to help fund the capital program? Isn't the capital program unfunded past mid-2012? Somehow, the payroll tax money went into the general budget.

 

This is why I don't trust these folks with new sources of revenue.

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And how did you (and Via Garibaldi) get to school? Thought so.

 

And I'll have you know, I have a 100+ average (though Via Garibaldi would question how I got that average. :P ) and quietly take my seat on the bus. Yeah, there are plenty of kids who make a lot of noise, but to generalize all students like that is just stupid.

 

Like I said, if they want to overhaul the system, make it so that you get a Student MetroCard if you have an 85+ average, or a recommendation from a teacher (or for middle/high school, make it 3 teachers). You might not weed out all of the noisemakers, but you'll weed out the worst of them.

 

Uh, like I said, I paid half fare for most of my years in high school and I would've supported it being taken away entirely and I still do. So we happened to benefit from a free pass here and there. And your point is? I still say get rid of it. My parents would've certainly paid for me to get to and from school just the way that they did when I had a half-fare pass. Sometimes I walked to school, so I didn't even use it all the time. Parents should be responsible for getting their kids to school. There is no law that says that kids have to get free transportation to other schools outside of their neighborhoods. I went to my zoned schools. And guess what? I turned out just fine.

 

Agreed. I mean, a lot of SIers act like we're the only borough with transportation problems. Every borough has transportation problems to a certain extent, though they are different from ours.

 

That's not the point. We're the most suburban of the boroughs and the most spread out so when you have service run as infrequent as it does in many parts of the borough then our problems become exacerbated. Try living off of Richmond Avenue with your 4 local buses and various express buses and then maybe you would understand better.

 

A two-way toll would result in it being halved in each direction. Right now, the cash toll is $13 for the Verrazanno Bridge one-way, and the cash toll for the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel is $6.50 one-way.

 

Ugh, why are you telling me something that I already know? The point isn't for it to be $6.50 each way. We want the damn bridge to be free as was originally promised! :mad: This bridge has been paid for several times over with the overcharging that they've done, using it as their personal cash cow.

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And if they implemented tolls again (impossible given they've removed most, if not all, of the old Brooklyn-bound tolls) for people going the other way, he'd complain about pollution.

 

If you are referring to me, that would not be true.

 

If the city is willing to run every single bus route that there is demand for, I will support East River bridge tolls. It will get everyone out of the way when I use the Brooklyn Bridge. However, every additional tax comes with promises that are broken. Remember how the payroll tax was supposed to help fund the capital program? Isn't the capital program unfunded past mid-2012? Somehow, the payroll tax money went into the general budget.

 

This is why I don't trust these folks with new sources of revenue.

 

Don't know if the payroll tax went into the general budget, but they may have done the same thing when they asked us to approve the Lottery. It will bring added revenues to Education. All the money that is not returned or used for Administration will be used for education. That was the promise. What they didn't say was that for every dollar from the lottery that would fund education, one dollar will be removed from the general fund that previously funded education in it's entirety, so the lottery would not provide one new dollar for education. The state general budget went from something like 60% going toward education to 30% for education as a result of the lottery.

 

I oppose East River tolls to the free bridges for the exact same reason as you do, because these folks have continually lied to us and cannot be trusted. The young generation is not aware of how we were screwed in the past and are far too trusting of government. If tolls or congestion pricing is passed and the City is in charge, first of all half the money would go to administration in the case of congestion pricing. The City would then use the remainder for things like filling potholes, and other transportation items that come from their current operating budget. A small percentage would go to mass transit like 10%, and they would come back the following year requesting the charge for congestion pricing be doubled.

 

If it's tolls, and they go to the MTA, a disproportionate amount will be spent on the railroads, not the subways and buses. If the money somehow goes to the State, they will spend most of it Upstate not in NYC. That's just the way politics works and naive people just don't see it until it's too late and then they are sorry and new politicians pull the same crap on future generations.

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1) Uh, like I said, I paid half fare for most of my years in high school and I would've supported it being taken away entirely and I still do. So we happened to benefit from a free pass here and there. And your point is? I still say get rid of it. My parents would've certainly paid for me to get to and from school just the way that they did when I had a half-fare pass. Sometimes I walked to school, so I didn't even use it all the time. Parents should be responsible for getting their kids to school. There is no law that says that kids have to get free transportation to other schools outside of their neighborhoods. I went to my zoned schools. And guess what? I turned out just fine.

 

2) That's not the point. We're the most suburban of the boroughs and the most spread out so when you have service run as infrequent as it does in many parts of the borough then our problems become exacerbated. Try living off of Richmond Avenue with your 4 local buses and various express buses and then maybe you would understand better.

 

3) Ugh, why are you telling me something that I already know? The point isn't for it to be $6.50 each way. We want the damn bridge to be free as was originally promised! :mad: This bridge has been paid for several times over with the overcharging that they've done, using it as their personal cash cow.

 

1) Except that I am going to my zoned school, so that argument makes no sense.

 

You are just too much. You support taxpayer money being spent for me to take classes where I already know the material (the most obvious being why did I have to take a foreign language when I'm a native Spanish speaker), and yet you oppose a fraction of that amount going towards giving me a Student MetroCard.

 

So I'm wasting my time, your taxpayer dollars and for every second I'm in school, I'm not working and paying taxes.

 

Not to mention that schools all over the place have school buses. By your logic, we should get rid of them for elementary school students as well because "there's no law saying they have to provide free transportation".

 

2) Yes because I'm spending so much time on the express buses. I don't even remember when the last time I set foot on an express bus was. Whenever I go to Manhattan (which isn't that often, except for this past summer), I take the ferry or maybe the S93->(R)

 

The point is that SI isn't the only borough with transit problems. You said yourself that we have unique problems not that we're the only borough with problems. In SI, it's buses not showing up on time, low frequencies, and gaps in coverage. In the other boroughs, there are different ones such as crowding and the slowness of the buses (B35 via Church says that the B35 isn't any faster than walking when you're going to the subway, and obviously the B35 is also a very crowded route)

 

3) They never legally signed anything that said that the bridge would be free after it was paid for. That's just an urban legend.

 

Plus, the bridge is subsidizing service, so it works out in the end. I'm sure it has helped keep the express bus fare lower than it would be otherwise, and the same for the LIRR and Metro-North.

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I oppose East River tolls to the free bridges for the exact same reason as you do, because these folks have continually lied to us and cannot be trusted. The young generation is not aware of how we were screwed in the past and are far too trusting of government. If tolls or congestion pricing is passed and the City is in charge, first of all half the money would go to administration in the case of congestion pricing. The City would then use the remainder for things like filling potholes, and other transportation items that come from their current operating budget. A small percentage would go to mass transit like 10%, and they would come back the following year requesting the charge for congestion pricing be doubled.

 

BINGO.

 

This is why it did not pass last time. The suburbs wanted a cut in order to vote for it. The proposal was for the MTA to takeover the suburban bus lines. However, that would not have been cash positive. They wanted actual cash out of the bridges to be given to them. However, if they had to get actual cash, the city may not have been able to cash out of all of their MTA subsidies.

 

The city floated the latest congestion pricing concept because it has the potential to save almost $1 billion per year. The bridges cost $400M per year to maintain. MTA Bus is another $400M. The remaining MTA contributions are around $200M. Under the plan, the MTA would use the bridge profits to REPLACE the city's local contribution. No one caught on except the suburbs, but they were not going to kill the deal because they figured that they could get a cut.

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Hey JAzumah,

 

Remember how Bloomberg promised during the last campaign that if you vote for him he will see to it that the MTA makes all Manhattan crosstown buses free to speed them up and the MTA wouldn't lose money because everyone is transferring from the subway anyway. Then one day after Election Day when asked by a reporter when it will take effect, his response was that he wasn't so sure that was a good idea after all and it really was up to the MTA to study it and see if they agreed. Well we're still waiting to hear from the MTA.

 

That's as far as you can trust politicians.

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If the city is willing to run every single bus route that there is demand for, I will support East River bridge tolls. It will get everyone out of the way when I use the Brooklyn Bridge. However, every additional tax comes with promises that are broken. Remember how the payroll tax was supposed to help fund the capital program? Isn't the capital program unfunded past mid-2012? Somehow, the payroll tax money went into the general budget.

 

This is why I don't trust these folks with new sources of revenue.

 

true if the B2 went over belt to SI ppl would probably abandon the toll in favor of the bus which would be just as fast.

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http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/staten_islands_mta_board_membe.html

 

My question is whether or not these new/re-vitalized rail links would mean a reduction is bus service on the island?

 

As for the whole toll topic, I think the tolls should be put in other places. We have too many folks coming through Staten Island from NJ and so on and polluting and not paying anything. :mad:

 

For all of these folks whining about the tolls the traffic certainly is getting worse. Cars all over the place.... :(

 

why doesn't he propose eliminating the Verezano Bridge toll entirely then if every other borough gets a free ride? Then every borough has at least one free way to get there and back. Oh wait we cant make it too easy for motorists :tdown: :( :mad:

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