Jump to content
Attention: In order to reply to messages, create topics, have access to other features of the community you must sign up for an account.
Sign in to follow this  
TriboroughBridge

Timers: what they are here for & the most annoying one(s)

Recommended Posts

Hi everybody,

 

What exactly do the timers do? I know they slow the train down or something like that, but why do you need that? just post a speed limit & if the motorman doesnt obey it, the executives will have his/her head.

 

Now, I dont know if these areas have timers, but they always run slowly through these areas or even stop at times & they are pretty annoying.

 

(;), (D), (N), (Q) & (R) between Atlantic Ave & DeKalb Ave.

(2), (3), (4) & (5) between Franklin Ave & Nostrand Ave/President Street. Which doesnt make any sense to me, because northbound (5) leaving President St, zoom till it reaches Franklin Ave. (southbound)

 

Now, the ones that truly piss me off are, southbound (2) & (3) leaving Chambers St going to Park Place.

&

Southbound (2), (3), (4) & (5) between Hoyt St & Nevins St.

 

Another reason I dont get the point of timers is, they have them at the weirdest places. there are places in the system that have much tighter turns than Nevins St. Look at Canal St, when (Q) trains leave that station they speed out & that is hell of a bend over there, yet there are no timers. or the (E) & (F) between Grand Ave & Woodhaven Blvd, they dont slow down for anything when turning from Broadway to Queens Blvd.

 

Why is a train able to zoom out of a station in one direction, but when it comes in the other it has to slow down?

 

One last question I have, Why is it when a train approaches a timer it slows down for the first couple of cars or so, but the rest of the cars get pulled in at normal speed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Timers are there to make our commute slow and miserable due to the MTA's paranoia and distrust of their employees lol

 

But yes I totally agree with you it really makes no sense in the placement of certain timers and how some places that it would make sense to have a timer, don't.

 

A timer, besides from the fact that it takes a certain amount of time to clear, is in other respects a regular signal. Once the first car of the train passes the timed signal, it will turn red just like any other signal and unless if there is another timer in front of it the train can resume full power without any penalty

 

The most ridiculous timers imo are those underground timers on the 7, but I was told that they are there to prevent the train from swaying too much and hitting the wall o_O so w/e lol but many places that have timers don't need them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi everybody,

 

What exactly do the timers do? I know they slow the train down or something like that, but why do you need that? just post a speed limit & if the motorman doesnt obey it, the executives will have his/her head.

 

Now, I dont know if these areas have timers, but they always run slowly through these areas or even stop at times & they are pretty annoying.

 

(;), (D), (N), (Q) & (R) between Atlantic Ave & DeKalb Ave.

(2), (3), (4) & (5) between Franklin Ave & Nostrand Ave/President Street. Which doesnt make any sense to me, because northbound (5) leaving President St, zoom till it reaches Franklin Ave. (southbound)

 

Now, the ones that truly piss me off are, southbound (2) & (3) leaving Chambers St going to Park Place.

&

Southbound (2), (3), (4) & (5) between Hoyt St & Nevins St.

 

Another reason I dont get the point of timers is, they have them at the weirdest places. there are places in the system that have much tighter turns than Nevins St. Look at Canal St, when (Q) trains leave that station they speed out & that is hell of a bend over there, yet there are no timers. or the (E) & (F) between Grand Ave & Woodhaven Blvd, they dont slow down for anything when turning from Broadway to Queens Blvd.

 

Why is a train able to zoom out of a station in one direction, but when it comes in the other it has to slow down?

 

One last question I have, Why is it when a train approaches a timer it slows down for the first couple of cars or so, but the rest of the cars get pulled in at normal speed?

 

This shall prove very useful!

http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/signals_timesig.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi everybody,

 

What exactly do the timers do? I know they slow the train down or something like that, but why do you need that? just post a speed limit & if the motorman doesnt obey it, the executives will have his/her head.

 

Timers enforce speed limits by tripping trains that overspeed. In many cases they are necessary to protect the switches and equipment.

 

In some cases, they are overly restrictive, but many "buffs" out there who claim to know the difference don't.

 

Now, I dont know if these areas have timers, but they always run slowly through these areas or even stop at times & they are pretty annoying.

 

I can answer some of these

 

(2), (3), (4) & (5) between Franklin Ave & Nostrand Ave/President Street. Which doesnt make any sense to me, because northbound (5) leaving President St, zoom till it reaches Franklin Ave. (southbound)

 

Northbound the (5) does NOT "zoom" because it has to go around a curve and over a switch to the express track south of Franklin St.

 

Southbound the trains must go slow because they are approaching switches that separate the Utica/New Lots trains from the Flatbush trains, and even if the train is going straight there is a kick in the rail which you can noticeably feel. It would be unsafe to exceed that speed over those tracks.

 

Now, the ones that truly piss me off are, southbound (2) & (3) leaving Chambers St going to Park Place.

 

Sharp curve.

 

&

Southbound (2), (3), (4) & (5) between Hoyt St & Nevins St.

 

Sharp curve, and there was an incident there years ago which is why there are now timers.

 

Another reason I dont get the point of timers is, they have them at the weirdest places. there are places in the system that have much tighter turns than Nevins St. Look at Canal St, when (Q) trains leave that station they speed out & that is hell of a bend over there, yet there are no timers. or the (E) & (F) between Grand Ave & Woodhaven Blvd, they dont slow down for anything when turning from Broadway to Queens Blvd.

 

Track can be superelevated to counteract centripetal force and give the train the ability to safely take the turn at a higher speed. At Canal St., that is the case.

 

Why is a train able to zoom out of a station in one direction, but when it comes in the other it has to slow down?

 

Depends on track conditions at the particular location. Can't answer a vague question like this specifically.

 

One last question I have, Why is it when a train approaches a timer it slows down for the first couple of cars or so, but the rest of the cars get pulled in at normal speed?

 

A timer enforces the speed limit in approach of the signal, that's it. Although proper operation is to maintain safe speed throughout the area. Once the timer is cleared, allowable speed defaults back to whatever the posted speed limit is. Without a timer, however, it's not enforced.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A few things. Ill do this in two separate posts to increase effectiveness.

 

1 - Riding the subway was not meant to be an amusement park ride. You want that feeling of speed, g-forces and inertia, go to Six Flags Great Adventure.

 

2 - Timers are to enforce speed over certain ROW conditions

a: A switch or series of switches.

b: A curve or series of curves, or a small but sharp bend or bump in track.

c: A significant downgrade where train speed can become excessive (just in case the train needed to stop for any reason).

d: (newly added), to control the speed of a train entering a station so the chance of it running the station and/or signal at the end (and entering the switch area just beyond) is minimized.

 

Railfans have big problems with (D), with the other ones remembering the days when trains were faster and there was no (D). Of course many of these areas had speed limits that T/O's regularly disobey anyway.

 

3 - There are speed limits for both curves, switches, and areas of tracks where signals are close together, and there is not enough stopping distance.

 

The base speed limit of a switch is 10, unless otherwise posted (mostly faster, sometimes slower). The fastest switch in the system is south of 59-CC, where trains can leave at 25 (which is basically wrap it around and roll down the hill after awhile). Trains can enter there at 20, even though it's the same type of switch, and trains usually leave it wrapped provided signals are clear for them to do so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As was mentioned, some areas of track in the system have elevation to allow higher travel speeds (think of how race tracks are built, with the outer area of the circle higher than the inner). Same idea, meant to counterbalance physics laws of matter wishing to continue traveling in the same direction. Areas that have such effect (just to name a few)

 

(N)(Q) Canal St (20mph leaving)

(4)(5)(6) Union Sq (20mph leaving, timer on northbound local).

(A)(C)(E) 14th (30mph entering, recently upped from 25 due to signal upgrades).

(A)(C)(E) West 4 (25mph entering s/;)

 

Now the area between Atlantic/Pacific and Dekalb on both Brighton and 4Av trunks have both switches and curves, and generally, 15mph is maintained through the entire area, both directions, give or take 5.

 

The reason timers are on entrance to river tubes is not because the speed is unsafe if the train is by itself, its because speeds trains can reach without timers there is unsafe in case another train is in the tube ahead of it.

 

Yes there are certain locations timers were put in to overprotect switches or to prevent prior T/O error, and these are unfair. But it is what it is, and I never see a railfan/buff complain about TA slowing trains their home station if incidents kept happening at that particular location.

 

There are also many speed limits out there that T/Os disregard entirely, mostly put in to range of vision requirements. For instance, its 30mph entering West 4th northbound, not due to sharp curve (slight bend, nothing major), but how close signals are in approach combined with decreased range of vision. Very few obey that one, I for one enter at 37-39 regularly, unless I know I'm following an (A).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As was mentioned, some areas of track in the system have elevation to allow higher travel speeds (think of how race tracks are built, with the outer area of the circle higher than the inner). Same idea, meant to counterbalance physics laws of matter wishing to continue traveling in the same direction. Areas that have such effect (just to name a few)

 

(N)(Q) Canal St (20mph leaving)

(4)(5)(6) Union Sq (20mph leaving, timer on northbound local).

(A)(C)(E) 14th (30mph entering, recently upped from 25 due to signal upgrades).

(A)(C)(E) West 4 (25mph entering s/;)

 

Now the area between Atlantic/Pacific and Dekalb on both Brighton and 4Av trunks have both switches and curves, and generally, 15mph is maintained through the entire area, both directions, give or take 5.

 

The reason timers are on entrance to river tubes is not because the speed is unsafe if the train is by itself, its because speeds trains can reach without timers there is unsafe in case another train is in the tube ahead of it.

 

Yes there are certain locations timers were put in to overprotect switches or to prevent prior T/O error, and these are unfair. But it is what it is, and I never see a railfan/buff complain about TA slowing trains their home station if incidents kept happening at that particular location.

 

There are also many speed limits out there that T/Os disregard entirely, mostly put in to range of vision requirements. For instance, its 30mph entering West 4th northbound, not due to sharp curve (slight bend, nothing major), but how close signals are in approach combined with decreased range of vision. Very few obey that one, I for one enter at 37-39 regularly, unless I know I'm following an (A).

 

I have a question about switch protection, which I don't know if you'll be able to answer: since in the NYC Subway, they go to great lengths to protect the switches from speeding trains, how come here, in Athens, the trains ram through the switches at this speed?

 

(there are 2 switches in this clip)

What are your thoughts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Speaking of timers I think they got rid of the one when leaving Intervale Ave and entering Simpson St on the 2/5 line. It no longers slows down when entering Simpson St.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Timers are there to make our commute slow and miserable due to the MTA's paranoia and distrust of their employees lol

 

LOL! That I know already, but I want to know why the MTA wants to makes us miserable after taking more money out of our pockets. ;)

 

 

Northbound the (5) does NOT "zoom" because it has to go around a curve and over a switch to the express track south of Franklin St.

 

Ok, when I say "zoom" I dont mean it's going the speed a train would be through a tunnel. But the (5) sometimes does go pretty damn fast when leaving President St to Franklin Ave

 

Southbound the trains must go slow because they are approaching switches that separate the Utica/New Lots trains from the Flatbush trains, and even if the train is going straight there is a kick in the rail which you can noticeably feel. It would be unsafe to exceed that speed over those tracks.

 

Yeah this is weird, is it me or does the (5) continue straight to crossover & the (2)/(3) & (4) track curve a little to the left? what do I mean by this? usually when a train goes from one track to another it makes a slight curve, but when the (5) goes from the express to the local track it doesnt feel like it curves at all.

 

 

Track can be superelevated to counteract centripetal force and give the train the ability to safely take the turn at a higher speed. At Canal St., that is the case.

 

So why couldnt they have done this at Park Pl, Nevins St, etc.

 

 

1 - Riding the subway was not meant to be an amusement park ride. You want that feeling of speed, g-forces and inertia, go to Six Flags Great Adventure.

 

Well that's weird cause when I ride the (Q) through Canal Street & the 60 Street tunnel it feels like an amusement park.

 

 

As was mentioned, some areas of track in the system have elevation to allow higher travel speeds (think of how race tracks are built, with the outer area of the circle higher than the inner). Same idea, meant to counterbalance physics laws of matter wishing to continue traveling in the same direction. Areas that have such effect (just to name a few)

 

Canal St (20mph leaving)

Union Sq (20mph leaving, timer on northbound local).

14th (30mph entering, recently upped from 25 due to signal upgrades).

West 4 (25mph entering s/:)

 

I pretty sure when I'm usually on a (Q) it goes faster than 20. the first time I rode a (Q) over the manhattan bridge to canal st, I wasnt ready for the curve & the train zoomed out of the station & I got thrown against the door.

 

 

Speaking of timers I think they got rid of the one when leaving Intervale Ave and entering Simpson St on the 2/5 line. It no longers slows down when entering Simpson St.

 

I was always wondering why train went so slowly over there. Why do they need one there it's a straight track?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Speaking of timers I think they got rid of the one when leaving Intervale Ave and entering Simpson St on the 2/5 line. It no longers slows down when entering Simpson St.

 

Na that timer is still their plus the one halfway into the station and halfway through the curve. Except the limit was raised to 20 (i think)

 

there's also one that i don't find necessary going downhill from prospect going towards Intervale but i don't know if its still there.

 

Plus the one entering Grand Concourse (2)(5) is really unnecessary because its straight track.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Which doesnt make any sense to me, because northbound (5) leaving President St, zoom till it reaches Franklin Ave. (southbound)

 

Northbound the (5) does NOT "zoom" because it has to go around a curve and over a switch to the express track south of Franklin Av.

 

I remember last year there was there (5) T/O who sped through the Junction, he did slow down a little bit to allow the train to get on the Northbound express track safely, but it was only barely, he was still a speed demon. I had him almost every day last year :cool:

 

I still take that same interval almost everyday now, but either he's gone or he was told to cool it because the T/O now drives more-or-less like normal.

 

I had another (5) train T/O who used to accelerate straight out of Nevins Street Northbound and sometimes around the Grand Army Plaza curve too, but I don't see him either.

 

Better safe than sorry, I guess.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hmm, the most annoying ones are at Broadway Junction on the (A)...smh

 

The ones on the E westbound :tdown::tdown:;) and thats on the exp track

but I know the A after jay is just too much

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So now after the incident at Astoria-Ditmars I assume they are going to put up timers there too. ;)

 

Also a side note. I realized at BC-Flatbush Ave only northbound trains on the northbound track can leave/enter the station at normal speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The curve north of Canal St on the (Q) is not timed (n/;), its just a [20 MILES] posted at the end of the platform. It's at the T/O's discretion whether to wrap it (and keep it wrapped) or obey the speed limit. Going further north between 8th and Union Sq, the speed limits go [40] [30] then [20] for the curve, maintaining speed all the way into Union Sq. Radar guns sometimes pop up at Union Sq n/b. For the most part, reduced speeds entering stations are hot spots for radar guns, even though some take the chance...

 

most places...

1-5 over = verbal warning (they make note of it, 3 warnings = write up)

6-10 over = written reprimand (goes in your file and permanent record, low end write up)

11+ over = out of service on the spot (TSS takes over operation of the train)

 

on switches...

1-5 over = written reprimand

6+ = out of service on the spot.

 

Some popular radar gun spots:

IRT - Brooklyn Bridge, Nevins St, Simpson St, Grand Central, East 180th, Westchester Sq, Central Park North-110th.

IND/BMT - 14st-8Av, West 4, Hoyt-Schmerhorn, Kings Hwy (Brighton), Brighton Beach, 15st-Prospect Park, Ditmas Av, 2Av, Bedford-Nostrand, Steinway St, 71-Continental, Northern Blvd, 36th, 75th Av, Union Tpk, Briarwood-Van Wyck, Astoria Blvd. Marcy Av, Canal St (Nassau), Canal St Lower (Broadway), Chauncey St, Essex St, 34th Herald Sq (Broadway), 42nd-TSq (Broadway)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So now after the incident at Astoria-Ditmars I assume they are going to put up timers there too. ;)

 

Also a side note. I realized at BC-Flatbush Ave only northbound trains on the northbound track can leave/enter the station at normal speed.

 

There are already timers inside of Ditmars terminal. The T/O cleared them all just fine, its it just not known exactly yet what happened. (5) trains leaving Flatbush have to go over the switch... its not a fast switch like most IND spots...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So why couldnt they have done this at Park Pl, Nevins St, etc.

 

There are timers at Park Pl

 

Well that's weird cause when I ride the (Q) through Canal Street & the 60 Street tunnel it feels like an amusement park.

 

With the 60 St tunnel, the approaches are very steep. Once you clear the last timer in either direction, you can hit 55-60 (yes 60, seen it happen before), but once you get up that hill, it'll slow you down a lot since its so steep

 

...I was always wondering why train went so slowly over there. Why do they need one there it's a straight track?

 

Because you're going north from the regular northbound track. If you leave from the southbound track, you have to slow down to aet across that switch

 

Replies in red

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading this entire thread, I've come to the conclusion that no matter what answer, you rather have the MTA take out timers.

 

Taking our the safety of most timers is like taking out all the traffic lights on Ocean Parkway and Queens Blvd, bad idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
After reading this entire thread, I've come to the conclusion that no matter what answer, you rather have the MTA take out timers.

 

Taking our the safety of most timers is like taking out all the traffic lights on Ocean Parkway and Queens Blvd, bad idea.

 

I've seen Ocean Pkwy and thats why I stay on the local side lol only Stop signs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
After reading this entire thread, I've come to the conclusion that no matter what answer, you rather have the MTA take out timers.

 

Taking our the safety of most timers is like taking out all the traffic lights on Ocean Parkway and Queens Blvd, bad idea.

 

Better yet, in Manhattan compare Park Avenue to any of the other uni-directional avenue. Park Avenue has no timers (but you eventually have to stop when the entire avenue end to end goes RED), while those other single direction avenues are "timed" to 30mph. Which do you feel safer crossing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CBTC coming in the next century will allow most restrictions to be lifted since a computer will be operating the trains and can approach the limits of safe operation in a strictly controlled way. Trains right now have a good safety record (compared to automobiles), and should be kept that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe this is why timers were installed into the NYC Subway System (Common Sense).

 

Malbone Street Wreck.

Malbone726at39yard.jpg

http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/malbone01.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbone_Street_Wreck

 

Another recent one is the Shanghai Metro Incident which was also caused by faulty equipment and excessive speed. The excessive speed resulted in a collision between 2 trains.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jy3SlSHqMzOKm_ffy5uLUMtdDatw?docId=b13fb9976b994d2ebf9a9cf1d4028827

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Every terminal that ends in a bumping block has timers that limit speed to 10mph while entering terminals (often less). Notice CBTC at Canarsie, and see the difference? This is the time savings TA is talking about, just the trains coming in there at normal speed can allow the system to close in on 30tph (which is a revenue track max, but is NOT the terminal max). Generally speaking, a two pocket terminal can only crank out a train every 3 mins max (TSQ (7) line is an anomale, even though headways get down as low as 90 secs, that means when the lights go on, not when the train actually departs).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I have a question about switch protection, which I don't know if you'll be able to answer: since in the NYC Subway, they go to great lengths to protect the switches from speeding trains, how come here, in Athens, the trains ram through the switches at this speed?

 

(there are 2 switches in this clip)

What are your thoughts?

 

Why compare another country's system to this one?

 

Here your asnwer they choose to do it that way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.