Timers: what they are here for & the most annoying one(s)

[RTOMan]

I dont have ANY problems with Timers you follow the speeds because it the rule...

 

I might think that it could be overkill for some but thats my opinion.

 

Word to the wise (esp those Who are on the Open Competitive T/O List)

 

You come down here thinking you can "work those timers" you rookies are going to see what your pass looks like in somebody else hands and not yours...

 

Esp if you go to the A Div...

[SubwayRat1978]

Another example of probably unecessary timers: Steinway tunnel bet GCT & V-Jack (Vernon/Jackson) on the 7. Two-shot timers all the way down! But hey, who am I to criticize?

[SubwayGuy]

Another example of probably unecessary timers: Steinway tunnel bet GCT & V-Jack (Vernon/Jackson) on the 7. Two-shot timers all the way down! But hey, who am I to criticize?

 

Like TwoTimer said, those are there to prevent the train from picking up excessive speed on the downgrade - excessive speed means if there was a train in front and the following train hit a red signal, the emergency stop might not complete in time to avoid a collision.

 

The Steinway tubes have notoriously steep grades which is why "Steinway" Lo-V cars had a separate gear ratio to provide more torque and less speed, so the train could make those grades. Modern equipment it's less of an issue but the steep grade and tight clearances are two very good reasons to closely regulate speed on the downgrades.

[TwoTimer]

I dont have ANY problems with Timers you follow the speeds because it the rule...

 

I might think that it could be overkill for some but thats my opinion.

 

Word to the wise (esp those Who are on the Open Competitive T/O List)

 

You come down here thinking you can "work those timers" you rookies are going to see what your pass looks like in somebody else hands and not yours...

 

Esp if you go to the A Div...

 

The ATS event recorder/printout download will have you "assuming your position" in a hurry, and its not just for hourlies, TSS have been busted for it too.

[TriboroughBridge]

The curve north of Canal St on the is not timed (n/:), its just a [20 MILES] posted at the end of the platform. It's at the T/O's discretion whether to wrap it (and keep it wrapped) or obey the speed limit. Going further north between 8th and Union Sq, the speed limits go [40] [30] then [20] for the curve, maintaining speed all the way into Union Sq. Radar guns sometimes pop up at Union Sq n/b. For the most part, reduced speeds entering stations are hot spots for radar guns, even though some take the chance...

 

most places...

1-5 over = verbal warning (they make note of it, 3 warnings = write up)

6-10 over = written reprimand (goes in your file and permanent record, low end write up)

11+ over = out of service on the spot (TSS takes over operation of the train)

 

on switches...

1-5 over = written reprimand

6+ = out of service on the spot.

 

Some popular radar gun spots:

IRT - Brooklyn Bridge, Nevins St, Simpson St, Grand Central, East 180th, Westchester Sq, Central Park North-110th.

IND/BMT - 14st-8Av, West 4, Hoyt-Schmerhorn, Kings Hwy (Brighton), Brighton Beach, 15st-Prospect Park, Ditmas Av, 2Av, Bedford-Nostrand, Steinway St, 71-Continental, Northern Blvd, 36th, 75th Av, Union Tpk, Briarwood-Van Wyck, Astoria Blvd. Marcy Av, Canal St (Nassau), Canal St Lower (Broadway), Chauncey St, Essex St, 34th Herald Sq (Broadway), 42nd-TSq (Broadway)

 

 

What does "wrap it" mean & could you explain to me about the radar gun system?

[TriboroughBridge]

Maybe this is why timers were installed into the NYC Subway System (Common Sense).

 

Malbone Street Wreck.

http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/malbone01.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbone_Street_Wreck

 

Another recent one is the Shanghai Metro Incident which was also caused by faulty equipment and excessive speed. The excessive speed resulted in a collision between 2 trains.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jy3SlSHqMzOKm_ffy5uLUMtdDatw?docId=b13fb9976b994d2ebf9a9cf1d4028827

 

 

Yes I agree with you, there are places were they are needed. Like after August 1991 they put timers north of 14 st union sq (lex) on the southbound tracks. this makes sense...now

 

but some areas just seem not to make any sense why they are there. Like, when & (northbound) leave intervale ave to simpson st there are timers, why? or when a southbound or approach canal & franklin sts they slow down, but northbound trains run at regular speeds. why?

 

Soundbound & trains at 86 st, why?

 

Is it suppose to be some kind of punishment because of previous motormen?

 

It's like the MTA trusted their motormen to go 25 at point A, but if they went higher, they have to put a timer that allows no higher than 15 MPH.

[peacemak3r]

It's not a punishment, it's a safety precaution.

[2 Train Master]

What should excessive speed be really considered? 5 mph above the limit,10 etc....

All the damn time T/O's leaving 103rd operating that local train storm in 110th almost or above 40 mph with a slight curve in btwn stations.It's awesome though

[RTOMan]

The ATS event recorder/printout download will have you "assuming your position" in a hurry, and its not just for hourlies, TSS have been busted for it too.

 

Yep They are kicking arse and taking names down here now...

 

These "Need For Speed" Freaks are going to find that out in a hurry...

[GojiMet86]

Every terminal that ends in a bumping block has timers that limit speed to 10mph while entering terminals (often less). Notice CBTC at Canarsie, and see the difference? This is the time savings TA is talking about, just the trains coming in there at normal speed can allow the system to close in on 30tph (which is a revenue track max, but is NOT the terminal max). Generally speaking, a two pocket terminal can only crank out a train every 3 mins max (TSQ line is an anomale, even though headways get down as low as 90 secs, that means when the lights go on, not when the train actually departs).

 

Do Jamaica - 179th Street and Norwood - 205th Street have timers? I understand that the track continues after those stations, but there are switches present afterward.

[TwoTimer]

What does "wrap it" mean & could you explain to me about the radar gun system?

 

Wrap it = full power (multiple/parallel in train jargon). Radar guns just measure speed of a train from a clean line of sight to the first moving piece, just like police highway patrol have them. Typically a TSS is at the end of the platform to tell you what your speed was (if it was at or below posted, its have a good day, if its even 1mph above, here comes the lecture, 6+ speeding ticket, 11+ out the seat). I've been gunned three times, 26 at Northern Blvd "please come in at 24 next time (with the TSS behind him laughing his tail off, speed limit is 25)", and at Dekalb twice on the . One time 8mph, the other time 10mph, both "have a safe trip".

 

Yep They are kicking arse and taking names down here now...

 

These "Need For Speed" Freaks are going to find that out in a hurry...

You can go as fast as you want, just dont blow a station or hit anything, and obey speed limits on curves and switches (which is sadly what railfans love t/o's that DON'T do that, now they're "slow"), and anything that's oddly low given the piece of track (hint hint: speed trap highway patrol style lmao). Its really that simple. There's still enough places in the system to keep the time or make it back up.

 

Do Jamaica - 179th Street and Norwood - 205th Street have timers? I understand that the track continues after those stations, but there are switches present afterward.

179th there's a GT20 between 169-179 on the local track, but that isn't because of the switch downstairs, its because someone probably blew 179th itself (I remember myself before that timer was there I flew in there at 40+), and therefore that timer is there to prevent you from coming in at 40+ on a downgrade. There's no timer on the express track coming in, as you're speed was reduced due to the 20mph switch after 169 right???? Sometimes there's a train just going into the relay and you have to creep in under those conditions, but no true in effect 24/7 timer on that track. There are two timers present between Bedford and 205th on the northbound track, also brand new (I basically call anything less than a year old brand new). No timers going into the relay at 205, just keying by a signal and safety stops.

[Roadcruiser1]

The NYC Subway commute is already faster then anything else. The trains move at 30 MPH on average compared to cars which move at 25 MPH.

[INDman]

Maybe this is why timers were installed into the NYC Subway System (Common Sense).

 

Malbone Street Wreck.

 

http://www.nycsubway.org/articles/malbone01.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbone_Street_Wreck

 

Another recent one is the Shanghai Metro Incident which was also caused by faulty equipment and excessive speed. The excessive speed resulted in a collision between 2 trains.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jy3SlSHqMzOKm_ffy5uLUMtdDatw?docId=b13fb9976b994d2ebf9a9cf1d4028827

 

I doubt that timers would really have helped since the BRT only had single shot grade timers which had one been in place, it would have been near to porthole and would have slowed the train only a little. 2 shot grade timers (Red signal proceeded by a yellow signal with an illuminated "S") did not come into use until the IND opened in 1932. Had the BRT had those signals on the approach to the curve, it would have forced the train to slow down or it would have gone BIE. Also, don't forget that the employee behind the controls of that train as an ATD (Assistant train Dispatcher) and had not received any official training.

[Andres]

Some People say that Simpson Street is a popular spot for radar gun use for TSS's but i have never seen them when the trains Entering or leaving. Could someone answer that for me?

 

And the s**tload of timers on the S-Curve heading to 180th northbound i mean isn't 3 enough? there's a whole bunch of them and 2 timers inside 180th on the N/B Local track what are they for i mean the train already passed the S-Curve.

[Trainmaster5]

Some People say that Simpson Street is a popular spot for radar gun use for TSS's but i have never seen them when the trains Entering or leaving. Could someone answer that for me?

 

And the s**tload of timers on the S-Curve heading to 180th northbound i mean isn't 3 enough? there's a whole bunch of them and 2 timers inside 180th on the N/B Local track what are they for i mean the train already passed the S-Curve.

 

I used to see my assigned TSS at Simpson St. Sometimes he would ride my train and get off at Simpson and watch. Simpson St n/b is notorious for microwave T/Os speeding out of the station n/b. There is a sign posted for 15 mph, IIRC, and the resume sign is located just short of the next cross street. I've seen T/Os speed around that curve as they throw the people in the rear cars from side to side. That just shows me how unprofessional some of these people are. When my TSS or the line TSS would ask me what action they should take against the violators I'd say "warning 1st time, reprimand or out of service for repeaters". Northbound from Tremont-West Farms to East 180th St is a series of S-curve, switches, and a curve into the station. The train isn't clear of the switches and curve until it's fully berthed in the station at the 10 car marker. That's why you have so many timers in the area. Remember that timers are installed as a safety precaution to avoid, or in response to, a potentially hazardous condition in most instances. Hope this answers some of your questions. Carry on.

[SubwayGuy]

but some areas just seem not to make any sense why they are there. Like, when & (northbound) leave intervale ave to simpson st there are timers, why?

 

Guide safe approach into the curve north of the station...regardless of whether or not the train is going to stop (signals can't tell if a train is bypassing or stopping at a station)

 

or when a southbound or approach canal & franklin sts they slow down, but northbound trains run at regular speeds. why?

 

Switches north of Chambers and a curve south of the station - again, control and regulate the approach to both.

 

Soundbound & trains at 86 st, why?

 

Begin gradually reducing train speed in approach to the switch leading to the siding south of 81st St.

 

Is it suppose to be some kind of punishment because of previous motormen?

 

Sometimes, yes. Other times, no.

[poughkipsee]

Thank you all for the info, this is so interesting. I'm hoping to be a T/O in the near future and am learning so much in these forums.

 

Sidenote: I LOVE that s-curve btwn West Farms and 180th. Besides that one and the curve btwn 174th and Simpson St, are there any other really sharp curves like those?

[TwoTimer]

Thank you all for the info, this is so interesting. I'm hoping to be a T/O in the near future and am learning so much in these forums.

 

Sidenote: I LOVE that s-curve btwn West Farms and 180th. Besides that one and the curve btwn 174th and Simpson St, are there any other really sharp curves like those?

 

The grandaddy of them all is bet City Hall and Cortlant in the BMT.

[Roadcruiser1]

There is another good sharp curve for trains going from 36th Street to Ninth Avenue and vice versa. Especially since it's a slope makes it more exciting.

[TriboroughBridge]

Thank you all for the info, this is so interesting. I'm hoping to be a T/O in the near future and am learning so much in these forums.

 

Sidenote: I LOVE that s-curve btwn West Farms and 180th. Besides that one and the curve btwn 174th and Simpson St, are there any other really sharp curves like those?

 

I'm also looking to be a T/O in the future.

 

If you really want a curve similar to the S-curve between E 180th & tremont ave, take the especially northbound of whitlock ave, that's a hell of a ride. To me, it always feels like the train is about to fall of the el when curving onto westchester ave. :cool:

[SubwayGuy]

If you want a good sharp curve at some speed on the structure, take the between Queensboro Plaza and 39th Ave. or the between Hunterspoint Ave. and (45th Road) Court(house) Square.

[elantra06]

Na that timer is still their plus the one halfway into the station and halfway through the curve. Except the limit was raised to 20 (i think)

 

there's also one that i don't find necessary going downhill from prospect going towards Intervale but i don't know if its still there.

 

Plus the one entering Grand Concourse is really unnecessary because its straight track.

 

I know for sure the one going downhill from prospect going towards Intervale isn't thier anymore. So is the one entering the Grand Concourse 2/5. Either that or they raised the speed limit on both.

[TwoTimer]

There was never one going between Intervale and Prospect, either direction. You probably meant Jackson avenue, and it generally cleared pretty fast, its just how T/O's decide to take them.

[TriboroughBridge]

Also, another few areas that piss me off for having timers, are, southbound , , & trains leavings Nevins St, they always crawl out of that station heading for Atlantic Ave, why?

 

& trains between Brooklyn Museum & Franklin Ave, both directions, why?

 

& northbound & trains between Franklin & Atlantic Aves. Please dont say because of the curve onto Flatbush Ave, cause even after the curve they still have timers, why? and by the way, southbound & train heading to Franklin Ave from Atlantic Ave swing by that curve at full speed, so how could the timers be there on the northbound track for the curve?

[TwoTimer]

Also, another few areas that piss me off for having timers, are, southbound , , & trains leavings Nevins St, they always crawl out of that station heading for Atlantic Ave, why?

 

& trains between Brooklyn Museum & Franklin Ave, both directions, why?

 

& northbound & trains between Franklin & Atlantic Aves. Please dont say because of the curve onto Flatbush Ave, cause even after northbound express train turn the curve they still have timers, why? and by the way, southbound & train heading to Franklin Ave from Atlantic Ave swing by that curve at full speed, so how could the timers be there on the northbound track for the curve?

 

Well IRT local between Eastern Pkwy and Franklin is on a downgrade s/b. Northbound, no idea, and that homeball clears at 12mph (although it says GT 25 lol). It's not the curve, its all downhill from the Grand Army Plaza area to Atlantic. Notice that the Brighton, which also runs on Flatbush, also has timers from 7Av on down to Atlantic. The reason it comes up between Prospect Pk and 7Av after initially downhill/flat (before that dip halfway in 7Av itself) is because the IRT is above it.