The (2) and (5) Should Permanently Swap on the Southern End

[mark1447]

I would leave everything alone. The to South Ferry is a nono, how else is people in Brooklyn going to get direct access to the West Side instead of making transfers. If people wanted Lexington Avenue service on Nostrands IRT, let them connect with it anywhere between Franklin or Borough Hall. Have the people figure out by TIMETABLE which time is the best to connect with a line.. But some dont have a brain to even bother.

 

Other option is restoring express service overnight on the EPWY line at allowing "connecting service" at Franklin or Nevins. Hold up a or and connect. But that might even cause the train to get late.

 

 

What about this late night service:

* from 241st to Time Square

* from 148th to New Lots

* from Woodlawn to 42nd St or 59th St

* from Dyre to Flatbush Av

 

I know this is economically worse than the current plan. Out of curiosity I always read on Wiki that there's lack of late night service to New Lots. Does that mean New Lots prefer East Side access or something else?

 

Yeah right...

 

Do you even know how ridership on the is compared to the during late night? When riding the starting at 42nd Street heading Uptown, the is packed even when a is at the station heading up. The is also packed with passengers(not heavy like rush hour) since around 14th Street. Some of those passangers are even customers who get off at 96 and wait.

 

to to 42nd? 59th??? Dude learn to ride Late night service and then we talk. Ive BEEN late at night (around 12AM to 4AM) in the city and the is slightly packed north of Brooklyn Bridge. There are also WPR customers, only thing that would be nice is if they extended the to 42nd or Mott Avenue for service, but money plays BIG TIME.

 

Off topic, but this is the reason why and trains run local during late nights on the Fourth Avenue Line.

 

Both and runs local to replace the . I would of kept the express due to the length of it, but its also needed as a replacement for the during Late Nights / Late Night Weekend to stop at DeKalb, since after 36th Street theres no switch back to the Express track between 25th St. and Dekalb.

 

Let me state at the outset that I like the #5 traveling to/from Brooklyn (Flatbush) at all times as this G.O. has shown that it could be done. After all of the years/decades where the #5 has been stuck to Bowling Green or reduced to a midnight hours shuttle - this pattern is refreshing.

 

I'd love it if a way could be found on the weekends for the #5 to travel to/from Brooklyn (Flatbush Avenue or Utica Avenue) during at least the day-times 6am to 9am or so. The #5 is a useful line - and such a practice would really be helpful to the riders. One does not "have to" stop - change or modify the #2, #3 or the #4 just to have the #5 run to/from Brooklyn. It's simple - one could just run the #5 there - just more manpower and money is needed - that's easy. (Yes, I'm joking but the point is clear.)

 

The basic problem as I see it - is that to get the #5 to run at all hours - so many other adjustments have to made - as the proposals listed in this particular message stream show. Frankly some of the westside stations are really not that flexible when it comes to certain train movements, and at the same time some of the suggested ideas are really not workable. In addition a basic pattern of service has been established over the past couple of decades - the riders have adjusted to it, and that arrangement is useful enough. In the current midnight hour pattern everybody gets a little of something - where only the #2 and #4 lines serve all of the terminals in Brooklyn.

 

There is little need to twist into pretzels the current IRT subway lines just to get #5 trains to service Brooklyn. The proposals presented so far - even the frequent changes in those same proposals - simply says that the current arrangement is the best for now.

 

Just my thoughts.

Mike

 

The thing is, with this general order happening right now, this isn't enough to show if the COULD use service to Brooklyn all other time besides its currently scheduled service. This G/O has been going on since Mid-Oct which will be over the end of this month.

 

People in Brooklyn pretty much want there West Side service back. I wouldn't want the eliminated from Flatbush or in Brooklyn if I had to head in or out of Brooklyn at times the is going to the Ferry.

 

There is no point of having 3 lines late at night into Brooklyn. The ( 4 ) and ( 5 ) is duplicate from Mott Avenue to Franklin, even if one is cut back or what ever, its still duplicate, thats why you see the ( 5 ) ending at Bowling Green other times. The ( 5 ) (Bowling Green portion) is brought to the Lex line mainly for those on the WPR and Dyre Line to head to/from East Side. Same applies with the / , duplicate from 135th to Franklin.

 

While the 3/4 in Brooklyn does give people a choice for Lex or Bway/7th same for 2/5 in Nostrand, late nights, 2 lines is fine.. 2/4 make your transfer if you need Lex or Bway/7th.

[2Line1291]

I don't see how the can even terminate at Mott Av cause it'll have to go through the complication of getting in the way of trains when terminating... just my thoughts

Yeah right...

 

Do you even know how ridership on the is compared to the during late night? When riding the starting at 42nd Street heading Uptown, the is packed even when a is at the station heading up. The is also packed with passengers(not heavy like rush hour) since around 14th Street. Some of those passangers are even customers who get off at 96 and wait.

 

to to 42nd? 59th??? Dude learn to ride Late night service and then we talk. Ive BEEN late at night (around 12AM to 4AM) in the city and the is slightly packed north of Brooklyn Bridge. There are also WPR customers, only thing that would be nice is if they extended the to 42nd or Mott Avenue for service, but money plays BIG TIME.

Well that's the thing... I don't down to the city late nights enough to notice the details like you did so dude!!! learn to know that I say what I say for a reason, not everybody is you and my interest for railfan/trains is unfortunately straying by every year so thank you for giving me a fun fact of the early AM.

[Roadcruiser1]

Here is the late night map from Wikipedia. Time for some of you to see how things run at night.

[SIR North Shore]

I don't even think this plan should be that extensive, I used to work late shifts and had to use the Lex around midnight and early morning and it would still be crowded as if it were the middle of the day. But whenever the G/O is in effect, it's amazingly convenient and both the 4 & 5 get a good amount of ridership for that time of night.

 

It would be nice for the MTA to 24/7 the to Brooklyn or BG whenever the Bleecker street station is complete and cut back the to 125th Street overnight like they have been doing. They have the clocks now, so it makes longer headways and different overnight patterns more bearable.

[Roadcruiser1]

Now do you see why this idea won't work on the map. You would remove all Seventh Avenue Line service from Brooklyn during late nights. You would make it even harder for people that now want Seventh Avenue Line service and not Lexington Avenue Line service.

[mark1447]

I don't see how the can even terminate at Mott Av cause it'll have to go through the complication of getting in the way of trains when terminating... just my thoughts

Well that's the thing... I don't down to the city late nights enough to notice the details like you did so dude!!! learn to know that I say what I say for a reason, not everybody is you and my interest for railfan/trains is unfortunately straying by every year so thank you for giving me a fun fact of the early AM.

 

.... Well explore a little bit and then you'd get the hang of it. Not trying to be pushy, so excuse my post.

 

For the to Mott, it can actually happen. Just have the relay on the Jerome M track at 138th. Theres a junction for it to switch tracks.

 

I don't even think this plan should be that extensive, I used to work late shifts and had to use the Lex around midnight and early morning and it would still be crowded as if it were the middle of the day. But whenever the G/O is in effect, it's amazingly convenient and both the 4 & 5 get a good amount of ridership for that time of night.

 

It would be nice for the MTA to 24/7 the to Brooklyn or BG whenever the Bleecker street station is complete and cut back the to 125th Street overnight like they have been doing. They have the clocks now, so it makes longer headways and different overnight patterns more bearable.

 

But cutting the may not please pass angers on the Pelham Line who want service to/from Manhattan (Downtown) and the Bronx.

[SubwayGuy]

You did not see all of my follow-up posts, including the one in which I said send the from 241 to 96 overnight,

 

96th Street is still a terrible place to terminate a 2 or 3 train. For the same reasons I posted earlier.

 

the from Lenox Terminal to New Lots at all times, making local stops overnight,

 

So now you've taken away express service entirely on Broadway while maintaining the same level of service (approximately) on the local. You've also sent R62's with exterior speakers out on the structure during overnight hours, which I'm sure will please the kindly residents of Brownsville (especially those with guns!)

 

the from Woodlawn to 125 overnight, and the from Dyre to Flatbush overnight? Then there continues to be one west side train and one east side train serving Brooklyn overnight, the and respectively.

 

Wow, you've outdone yourself. GOs not withstanding, 125th is quite possibly the only place worse than 96th to turn a train. Now the confusion of which train goes in which direction (since we're talking about the general public here!) can extend to "which LEVEL is the train I want on?"

 

So the goes local from Dyre to Flatbush overnight (since you can't cut Lexington local service overnight - it's needed). So now you're just paying crews instead of crews.

 

And two really dumb terminals for 2 and 4 trains.

 

You referenced the fact that I originally wanted the to terminate at 96. I said in a follow-up post within this thread, as well as in the bit of text I wrote above, that the should terminate at 96. I agree that there are too many complications involving the switches there for this to be practical.

 

"The only people benefiting from this will be Nostrand Avenue riders going to the east side." But how many Nostrand riders ride the all the way to the west side? I could just as easily tell you that the only people benefiting from the current setup are Nostrand Avenue riders going to the east side. I do not know whether Nostrand riders heading to the west side vastly outnumber Nostrand riders heading to the east side at all times. Even if they do, it is easier to synchronize the with the as they have the same weekend headway while the and do not. So if everything went smoothly Nostrand riders would spend no time waiting for a connecting train when transferring between the and under my proposal.

 

So then if it's not practical it won't be implemented, so it's hard to take seriously then.

 

Trains don't run on a computer kid. The schedule times do not often exactly match exact train arrival times. So what if the schedules don't "perfectly synchronize". If you ran a computer program to optimize the whole system so that there were always connections between trains stopping at the same platform and never delays with merging, diverging, and crossing over trains...it would get shot to shit in five minutes of actual operation.

 

What about Livonia riders that would have more express service options at Franklin during the times that the currently does not serve Brooklyn? Do any Nostrand riders wish that they had direct access to the Brooklyn express at all times rather than the Brooklyn local at all times?

 

Express service is highly overrated during the overnight hours. Going express from Franklin to Atlantic saves approximately 2-3 minutes southbound, and 1-2 minutes northbound. With low service frequency, people would rather have access to all stops than express service that saves a couple of minutes only - after all what about people going to local stations like Grand Army Plaza etc.? Now you just made them transfer for no reason.

 

Like was said before the ONLY people this helps are the Nostrand riders who want the east side. But PS most of the Nostrand Avenue ridership is NOT overnight...most crowded Brooklyn stations on the overnights are Franklin, Atlantic, and that's about it. Church Ave. gets a few people but for the most part overnights are a ghost town on the Brooklyn IRT which is why extra service is not needed.

 

Instead of terminating the at 96 Street overnight, the other option is to terminate the at 135 Street-Lenox Avenue. However there is not much room since the trains have to come through.

 

They did that for years with the old 3 shuttle. It didn't work so good since a lot of moves are necessary to turn a train there. It also interferes with work train moves. The middle track is a great place to hide a work train to allow road trains to pass, and not cause delays. Take that away and watch work train related delays skyrocket.

 

The other option is to terminate the at the 149 Street-Grand Concourse and have an overnight shuttle bus from there to to 145 Street-Lenox Avenue or 135 Street-Lenox Avenue.

 

Right. Because all for the sake of helping a small handful of people on the Nostrand line, it makes sense to force more people (Bronx IRT overnight ridership exceeds Brooklyn) to endure long waits for, first, a shuttle bus, and secondly, a second subway route just so they can get from the Bronx to the west side.

 

It would pick up Bronx-bound passengers from the at 145 or 135 and drop off at 149-GC, and pick up West side-bound passengers from the at 149-GC and drop off at 145 or 135. I wish it could terminate at 145 Street but some passengers may not know that they need to be in the first 5 cars of the uptown train to exit there and board the shuttle bus to the 149 Street-Grand Concourse. Additionally 145 Street-Lenox Avenue is a rather desolate area. 135 Street is busier and thus likely to be safer. This may be or probably is a case where you have to throw "anything can happen anywhere" out the window. The people would board this bus without swiping as is the case on shuttle buses.

 

So...anyone could hop this proposed shuttle bus between boroughs at any overnight hour, regardless of whether or not they actually paid to ride the subway. Got it.

 

:tdown::tdown:

[RTOMan]

Tell ya'll what when ATS FINALLY gets trains proper line ups and dont shut down when it feels like it we can re-invent these "ideas" again...

 

People see these G.O's they run down here and they think "oh it can be something like this"...

 

They are looking to cut thier operating budget as much as they can, not increase it with more trains more crews...

 

Wait till the Summer Pick if the "rumors" im hearing are true not cutting service but a swap internally..

['89 Liberty MCI]

Now do you see why this idea won't work on the map. You would remove all Seventh Avenue Line service from Brooklyn during late nights. You would make it even harder for people that now want Seventh Avenue Line service and not Lexington Avenue Line service.

 

I do not know if you were referring to my idea, because I said in a follow-up post or two that the and should operate local in Brooklyn (and the Bronx, and Manhattan) overnight.

 

96th Street is still a terrible place to terminate a 2 or 3 train. For the same reasons I posted earlier.

 

 

 

So now you've taken away express service entirely on Broadway while maintaining the same level of service (approximately) on the local. You've also sent R62's with exterior speakers out on the structure during overnight hours, which I'm sure will please the kindly residents of Brownsville (especially those with guns!)

 

 

 

Wow, you've outdone yourself. GOs not withstanding, 125th is quite possibly the only place worse than 96th to turn a train. Now the confusion of which train goes in which direction (since we're talking about the general public here!) can extend to "which LEVEL is the train I want on?"

 

So the goes local from Dyre to Flatbush overnight (since you can't cut Lexington local service overnight - it's needed). So now you're just paying crews instead of crews.

 

And two really dumb terminals for 2 and 4 trains.

 

 

 

So then if it's not practical it won't be implemented, so it's hard to take seriously then.

 

Trains don't run on a computer kid. The schedule times do not often exactly match exact train arrival times. So what if the schedules don't "perfectly synchronize". If you ran a computer program to optimize the whole system so that there were always connections between trains stopping at the same platform and never delays with merging, diverging, and crossing over trains...it would get shot to shit in five minutes of actual operation.

 

 

 

Express service is highly overrated during the overnight hours. Going express from Franklin to Atlantic saves approximately 2-3 minutes southbound, and 1-2 minutes northbound. With low service frequency, people would rather have access to all stops than express service that saves a couple of minutes only - after all what about people going to local stations like Grand Army Plaza etc.? Now you just made them transfer for no reason.

 

Like was said before the ONLY people this helps are the Nostrand riders who want the east side. But PS most of the Nostrand Avenue ridership is NOT overnight...most crowded Brooklyn stations on the overnights are Franklin, Atlantic, and that's about it. Church Ave. gets a few people but for the most part overnights are a ghost town on the Brooklyn IRT which is why extra service is not needed.

 

 

 

They did that for years with the old 3 shuttle. It didn't work so good since a lot of moves are necessary to turn a train there. It also interferes with work train moves. The middle track is a great place to hide a work train to allow road trains to pass, and not cause delays. Take that away and watch work train related delays skyrocket.

 

 

 

Right. Because all for the sake of helping a small handful of people on the Nostrand line, it makes sense to force more people (Bronx IRT overnight ridership exceeds Brooklyn) to endure long waits for, first, a shuttle bus, and secondly, a second subway route just so they can get from the Bronx to the west side.

 

 

 

So...anyone could hop this proposed shuttle bus between boroughs at any overnight hour, regardless of whether or not they actually paid to ride the subway. Got it.

 

:tdown::tdown:

 

To clarify, I never proposed to have express service in Brooklyn overnight. I want the and local in Brooklyn overnight. Outside of overnight hours, and express in Brooklyn, local in Brooklyn, local in Brooklyn when it serves Brooklyn.

 

That means that during the hours that the does not currently serve Brooklyn, Livonia riders have the same level of service to local stations on the Brooklyn IRT and to the west side. It also means they have more express service on the Brooklyn IRT as well as more Lexington line service: They can transfer to the in addition to the at Franklin, instead of the by itself at Utica.

 

125 Street is even worse of a terminal? Just have the terminate on the upper level (uptown) express track all night. It does not block any train during overnight hours based on what the track map is showing me. If people on the uptown or , which use the local track, want the uptown , which is on the express track, they walk across the platform. If they are on the downtown and want the uptown , they go upstairs as they do now. If they are on the downtown terminating at 125 and want the downtown or , they go downstairs.

 

That last bit is the only big difference people would have to get accustomed to. The conductors can announce this until the people get used to it. Alright, so perhaps they will have to make the announcement indefinitely because the public is the public. But making these announcements indefinitely has no effect on operating costs. The conductor gets paid the same whether s/he makes the announcement or not.

 

The reason why I want this overnight pattern is to minimize the differences between my daytime service idea ( to Brooklyn at all times) and the overnight service idea.

 

Now the lack of a Bronx/west side overnight subway connection is, in my opinion, the only outstanding issue to kill off. Bronx IRT ridership exceeds Brooklyn IRT ridership. So let us attempt to solve that one.

 

I was thinking kill the designation overnight and send the to 241 Street. Now in post #13, I said that the surplus in minutes of train operation was 11. (-54) + (51) + (-61) + (75) = 11 additional minutes of travel time per and pairing replaced with and pairing in the Bronx/Manhattan/Brooklyn.

 

This might be confusing, so I will clarify as necessary. Just ask. This is all based on plans described in post #13.

 

Eliminating the overnight from 241 Street to 96 Street saves 40 minutes on paper. So now there is a net savings of 29 minutes of train operation since 11 - 40 = -29.

 

Now knock off 3 minutes since it takes 3 minutes for a to go from Lenox Terminal to 135 Street. The will no longer serve Lenox Terminal or 145 Street. So now the net savings is 32 minutes.

 

Now add 32 minutes for a , which would be a under my proposal, to get from 241 Street to 135 Street.

 

(-32) + (32) = 0. 0 minutes of train operation. So it would be cost neutral to change overnight service in the way I described. The replacement of the local with the express in Brooklyn during the times that the currently does not serve Brooklyn, excluding overnight hours, definitely saves money. So now the entire plan saves money.

 

from Wakefield to New Lots overnight and from Dyre to Flatbush overnight. and make all local stops.

 

Perhaps the should go from Lenox Terminal to Flatbush during the times that the currently serves Brooklyn in that case, while the just goes from Wakefield to New Lots 24/7, operating express in Manhattan during the day and local in Manhattan overnight. Local in the Bronx and Brooklyn 24/7 like now.

 

I think that South Ferry could take the trains and the trains during the times that the does not currently serve Brooklyn. A similar situation, in which there are probably more trains within a given time frame, exists at Flatbush Avenue when the currently does serve Brooklyn.

 

There are trains coming in and out of that terminal every few minutes (I believe the and combined have an average 3-4 minute headway along Nostrand) during the times that the currently serves Brooklyn. How bad are the delays there at these times anyway?

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

The new idea, presented in an organized manner:

 

During hours that the currently serves Brooklyn:

 

OLD: from 241 Street to Flatbush Avenue. Bronx local, Manhattan express, Brooklyn local.

 

NEW: from Lenox Terminal to Flatbush Avenue. Manhattan express, Brooklyn local.

 

OLD: from Lenox Terminal to New Lots Avenue. Manhattan express, Brooklyn local.

 

NEW: from 241 Street to New Lots Avenue. Bronx local, Manhattan express, Brooklyn local.

 

remains unchanged. remains unchanged.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

During the hours that the currently does not serve Brooklyn, excluding overnight hours:

 

OLD: from 241 Street to Flatbush Avenue. Bronx local, Manhattan express, Brooklyn local.

 

NEW: from Lenox Terminal to South Ferry. Manhattan express.

 

OLD: from Lenox Terminal to New Lots Avenue. Manhattan express, Brooklyn local.

 

NEW: from 241 Street to New Lots Avenue.

 

OLD: from Dyre Avenue to Bowling Green. Bronx local. Manhattan express.

 

NEW: from Dyre Avenue to Flatbush Avenue. Bronx local. Manhattan express. Brooklyn express.

 

remains unchanged.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

During overnight hours:

 

OLD: from 241 Street to Flatbush Avenue. Bronx local. Manhattan local. Brooklyn local.

 

NEW: The line designation ceases to exist during overnight hours.

 

OLD: from Lenox Terminal to Times Square. Manhattan express.

 

NEW: from 241 Street to New Lots Avenue. Bronx local. Manhattan local. Brooklyn local.

 

OLD: from Woodlawn to New Lots Avenue. Bronx local. Manhattan local. Brooklyn local.

 

NEW: from Woodlawn to 125 Street.

 

OLD: from Dyre Avenue to East 180 Street.

 

NEW: (5) from Dyre Avenue to Flatbush Avenue. Bronx local. Manhattan local. Brooklyn local.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

It is slightly similar to the service pattern from 30 years ago.

[Roadcruiser1]

So you are basically saying to send trains to the South Ferry Loop, and to send the train to Brooklyn as the replacement to the , and to have the run to Brooklyn while turning all the trains at the City Hall Loop along with the and sending the to Brooklyn instead. Isn't this idea sort of redundant and confusing?

[TwoTimer]

And the shuttle bus appears to have returned as well, as there's no Lenox service. Note that flexibility is also gone too, with the garbage train and other work trains usually occupying the express tracks at 125-Lex. With today's modern service requirement, the only place to smoothly turn a is at 149-GC upstairs. Still no explanation why this new and complicated setup is better than just swapping the and terminals in Brooklyn again...

['89 Liberty MCI]

I made a slight error. The plan I described in post #34 actually adds 5 minutes of train operation per and pairing replaced with and pairing:

 

94 minutes saved by killing the .

 

3 minutes saved by not serving Lenox Terminal or 145.

 

40 minutes added by serving the area from 241 Street to 96 Street with the .

 

48 minutes added by extending the from Times Square to New Lots.

 

61 minutes saved by terminating the at 125 Street instead of New Lots.

 

75 minutes added by extending the from East 180 to Flatbush.

 

- 94 + 3 + 40 + 48 - 61 + 75 = 5 minutes of additional train operation time per and pairing replaced with and pairing.

 

Roadcruiser, I did not say the should end at City Hall. I said 125 Street during overnight hours only.

 

And the would not touch the South Ferry loop. It would go to the line terminal station. That is only during the times that the currently serves Brooklyn, excluding overnight hours. I said the should not run overnight.

 

TwoTimer, would they have to bring back a Lenox Avenue shuttle bus? The M7 and M102 run all night.

 

If it is not very important to keep the differences between the overnight service pattern and my daytime service idea (which includes running the express to Brooklyn, as it is not absolutely necessary to run the local to Brooklyn overnight) to a minimum, then there is nothing wrong with having the and swap terminals during overnight hours.

 

So the goes to Flatbush all day seven days a week, the goes to New Lots all day seven days a week like it used to, and the goes to Flatbush overnight, seven days a week. The stays at East 180 overnight and the stays at Times Square overnight.

 

During the times that the currently does not serve Brooklyn, excluding overnight hours, send the to New Lots, to South Ferry, to Utica, to Flatbush.

 

During the times that the currently does serve Brooklyn, send the to New Lots, to Flatbush, to Utica, to Flatbush.

 

Overnight, to New Lots and to Flatbush. Keep the from Dyre to East 180, keep the from Lenox Terminal to Times Square.

 

All northern terminals remain unchanged.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[TwoTimer]

I'm sure TA wants upper Harlem to go back to the pre- to TSq days... if they didn't want the to run all night anymore and could politically get away with it during the last set of cuts, they would have chopped it.

[MikeGerald]

Any proposal, idea or plan that suggests in any way, shape or form or that even hints at the return of the much hated #6 Pelham Shuttle to/from 125th Street-Lexington Avenue and Pelham Bay Park -- will never get my support. I will fight such plans until my last days on this earth - and I do mean that.

 

The 20-years of that Pelham Shuttle leaving only the #4 line as the sole service on the eastside - to me was the complete without reservation or second thoughts - the worst idea ever implemented on the subways. I truly hate to say it, but I do have to give Mayor Rudy G. credit for arm-twisting the MTA to restore the #6 to its full route 24/7/365. I never liked Rudy G. and I have never voted for him - but this is just one of the few things that he did while in office that I have to give him credit for. Too many other spline-less persons lamented the situation but actually did nothing about it.

 

Having to run and up and downstairs at 125th Street-Lexington Avenue for the #6 shuttle - was a pain. Having the #6 shuttle leave before the arriving uptown #4 - making all of those riders waiting another 20 minutes just to get home was a major crime. So no, all play acting - and wishful thinking on the part of transit fans - don't mess with the #6 train.

 

Don't mess with the #6 train.

Mike

[Roadcruiser1]

Here's a perfect solution, Leave everything alone!

 

This has been all about you, what you want, how to make you life better.

 

"The reason why I want this overnight pattern "

 

Doesn't that just speak volumes? It's all about him...

 

"ME ME ME ME ME, I want this, screw everyone else who might have a problem becuase of it, I want what I want."

 

He should have had learned a saying from Elementary School "The World doesn't revolve around you". In case he forgot now he knows. :cool:

['89 Liberty MCI]

Really? Come now.

 

Y'all are reading in to my language way too much. I write "I want" a lot because it is faster to type that in many situations than it is to type "this is what I think should happen" or "MTA should implement this plan" or "I would like this to happen" or "this is what should happen".

 

How could this be all about me if I do not even live in Brooklyn and rarely visit Brooklyn? There were even others that said in this thread that there should be more Lexington/Brooklyn express service than there is now. I even specifically referred to the fact that those living east of Utica would benefit from this since they would have not only the as a Brooklyn express/Lexington line to use, but the as well.

 

I still have not received an answer as to whether more people on Nostrand want the west side or the east side. Neither do I know approximately how many more (or less). Hell, I even know some people that live back there that have told me they prefer the over the . I happen to agree with them because the gives you the one-seat express ride through Brooklyn from the Nostrand line stations. So in agreeing with them when they are speaking as people who live there, and I am speaking as somebody who has his own experience back there since I have visited that part of Brooklyn as well as other parts before, I am suddenly this malevolent character who cares about nobody but himself? What a logical deduction!

 

Then you might have the people that travel between the west side and Nostrand Avenue more often simply because the 7th Avenue train serves Nostrand Avenue 24/7 while the Lexington Avenue train does not. These would be the people traveling to the west side to hang out and whatnot.

 

If it is easier to travel to the east side, you hang out on the east side. How many people that live by Nostrand work on the west side and therefore absolutely need the services in question during the hours that the does not currently serve Brooklyn? Changing your hang-out spot from the east side to the west side is nothing to blow a gasket about.

 

This is probably what would happen for most given the fact that the hours during which the currently does not serve Brooklyn are not hours during which most people travel to/from work. Having service cut so badly that your wait time increases drastically or you cannot even fit on the arriving train is something to blow a gasket about.

 

This is an idea that helps people those who live along the IRT Livonia line and those who live along the IRT Nostrand line and want the east side and/or want to have a faster ride through Brooklyn. If the trains are faster people are more likely to use them. And this plan lowers operating costs by replacing a local train with an express train in Brooklyn during the hours that the does not currently serve Brooklyn, excluding overnight hours.

 

So now if you put forth a proposal I get to dismiss it as being something only you want and painting you as somebody who thinks the world revolves around him and that nobody else matters? Come now. I do not even have the time for that nonsense. I have time to provide constructive criticism and make arguments using hard logic. A selfish, malevolent character? Good grief. Got anything better than that? That might be me if either I or literally nobody lived east of Utica along the line. But that is not me since I do not live in Brooklyn and there are lots of people living east of Utica, especially with the housing density out there.

[GojiMet86]

It helps if you live in Brooklyn. Then you would really be able to experience the ridership trends on those lines.

[Roadcruiser1]

You are actually correct that Brooklyn residents have a depth of knowledge in this. When I worked in Midtown Manhattan I had to take the , and to get home, and I really do see a lot of people especially on the Brooklyn end. If I may say I think there is an equal demand for both East and West Side service in Brooklyn.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Roadcruiser1]

The is really needed in Brooklyn. If there is no train or if the is eliminated or even delayed in service you are going to see severe trouble in Brooklyn.

['89 Liberty MCI]

You live in the bronx, all night 5 service might suit your needs on that end two, and you seem to have something of a vendetta aimed squairly on the 2 train.

 

You've basicly got it in your head that this is the idea of ideas, when to the rest of us it makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Why are you screwing around with the entire mainline IRT just so SOME people could have a connection that they MIGHT want?

 

A vendetta? Aimed squarely at the train? All night service? Suiting my needs? Neither could be further from the truth. I live nowhere near these trains and I would have to spend at least an hour on buses to reach to the nearest or station in the Bronx.

 

Additionally I said keep the at East 180 overnight. Having the run to Brooklyn all night is not something I propose anymore. See post #37.

 

I still have not received an exact answer to my question about whether line riders in Brooklyn want the east side or west side more. If there is an equal demand for both, then they can replace a west side express/Brooklyn local with an east side/Brooklyn express.

 

I do not even know how much of what y'all said was in response to post #37 or one of my preceding posts. This is very unclear to me. Post #37 is the only important one at the moment. That is now the proposal in question. The preceding ones that I posted no longer apply to this debate.

 

KR, how am I screwing around with the entire mainline IRT? Did you read post #37? I said all the northern terminals should remain the same while the southern terminals change. And how do you know this is a connection that 'some' riders 'might' want? Quite a few subjective words you are using there. Again, I still have not received an exact answer to my question about whether Nostrand line riders in Brooklyn want the east side or west side more.

 

How does my idea make no sense whatsoever when other people in this thread said that more Lexington trains should go to Brooklyn? The ideas I posted before #37 made little sense since they involved an awful lot of intricate changes that would inconvenience a lot of people. But #37 only involves changes on the southern end.

[Roadcruiser1]

Why do people ride the then? There is your answer.

[MikeGerald]

In the 1970's due to the city's fiscal crisis - the MTA started its program of transit reductions - where some all-hour Manhattan local routes were eliminated (AA, #6, etc.) and certain Manhattan express routes were turned into midnight hour local trains (A, #4, etc.). Over time - there were more reductions where the E-train, the F-train, N-train, B-train were either rendered a midnight hour local route or turned into a midnight hour shuttle over the essential portion of its route. In Manhattan that meant that most subway lines were reduced to the point where there was only one or routes running over a subway line. For example, and A and D along Central Park West, as just one example. Over time there has been a continuing effort to reduce the amount of train service to the essentials - often for budget reasons.

 

In the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens - many subway lines had only one route operating on the line, and often no express service after the rush hours, and definitely during the midnight hours the usage of shuttle train operations for branch routes. Some examples include the B-train shuttle branch along the West End line, at one time the N-train Sea Beach shuttle, and now the R-train Bay Ridge shuttle. Needless to say - the whole Rockaway Round Robin, and Rockaway Park shuttles are examples.

 

The point is that the MTA over time - and with whole series of map changes - has tried to reduce transit service to the essentials when it comes to train service that is outside of the weekday-times and rush hours.

 

Thus it becomes extremely difficult to consider train route proposal ideas without considering what route "should not run", and "trade-offs" between the routes that do run, etc. Thus it becomes a contest of how to do the most with the least - fiscal issues push this kind of thought as a solution.

 

On the Brooklyn IRT subways - over time - every type or arrangement of service has been tried. Every pair of origins and destinations have been tried - there's really nothing new - nothing radically new to suggest. The current pairs of the midnight hour #2 and #4 is simply another example of how to do the most with the least.

 

The idea that service can actually be added or changed - becomes seen as a strange idea - since it rarely so happens. Many transit fans don't really expect to actually see any of their ideas implemented - so proposing "wild stuff" doesn't always have to be reviewed as if it has the slightest chance of being implemented. While there's always a debate over what is practical, and what should be looked at in detail. The exercise can be good even if nothing will ever come from it.

 

Mike

[LRG]

I'm kinda late on this, but I might as well provide my input....

 

While I like the idea of the to Brooklyn during this G.O. going on but if anything, I'd like to see the at least go to Brooklyn on weekends, and run to Manhattan as far south as GC overnight. Maybe one of those two will happen...but as for the whole overnight swapping and stuff to make the go to Brooklyn full-time really isn't worth it.