Anyone think the (2) and (5) should swap on the north end permanently?

[GreatOne2k]

to 241 St

to Dyre Av

[Grand Concourse]

I know this is about the Bronx end, but there's no point in starting another thread just for it. It's simple why the are where they are: ridership wants it to be that way. Dyre for the east side and WPR for the west side.

[mark1447]

Another (2)/(5) swap thread.....

 

Did you made this thread because of the last one of swapping in Brooklyn?

 

For me No.

 

Just leave it how it is.

 

White Plains Road customers want direct Lenox/Broadway/7th Ave Service, Dyre customers want Lexington Service.

 

Just because there is a G/O at this time with the (2)/(5) swapping lines, doesn't mean it should be like that.

 

Go to 180th Street during the 2 / 5 swap G/O and see a bunch of passengers transferring to get to ether Dyre or 241st and you tell me if we need swapping. People don't like this idea. Maybe some like it, but that percentage of people is small.

 

If people on the WPR wants service go anywhere between 180th and Mott for service. The customers can do the same.

 

Rush hour peak they already have the going up to 238th, but even with that, that doesn't mean there is high demand for full time (5)s to 238th or 241th.

[B35 via Church]

White Plains Road customers want direct Lenox/Broadway/7th Ave Service, Dyre customers want Lexington Service.

I actually didn't know that about the Dyre av line... good to know.

 

....anyway, and I can tell you on the Brooklyn end, the demand is higher for the along the Nostrand av line.... and the demand is higher for lexington av service along the new lots av line; 4's tend to be more packed than 3's when they have 4's going to new lots....

 

 

I don't know what's w/ this sudden fixation w/ wanting to permanently change service on the 2/5 on either end....

[LRG]

STOP ALL TERMINAL SWAPS :-P

 

Seriously though what's so hard about transferring? I like the idea of service in Brooklyn on weekends but to re-arrange all these service just so the can get the limelight is crazy! This is almost like last years' threads about extending the train all over the system. Give it a rest already!

[TriboroughBridge]

I actually didn't know that about the Dyre av line... good to know.

 

....anyway, and I can tell you on the Brooklyn end, the demand is higher for the along the Nostrand av line.... and the demand is higher for lexington av service along the new lots av line; 4's tend to be more packed than 3's when they have 4's going to new lots....

 

 

I don't know what's w/ this sudden fixation w/ wanting to permanently change service on the 2/5 on either end....

 

Actually there is more of a demand for service along Nostrand Ave. the only reason most people take the along Nostrand Ave is, the often has to wait at President St for either a or to pass, as the only has to wait for the to pass, so people take the to Franklin Ave & transfer to the . But there is a bigger demand for the along Nostrand than the .

 

Another thing, why do people have to always attack a person who wants to know what service would be like a different way?

 

So this person asked about the (2)/(5) swap in the bronx, so tell him/her it wont work & why & move on. You dont have to get pissed at them for asking a simple question!

 

The reason this wont work is, the Bronx has the opposite problem Brooklyn does. Along the entire white plains line there is a bigger demand for west side service. From Wakefield-241 St, all the way till 149 St-Grand Concourse there is a bigger demand for the train, even at 149 St, the people from the (Jerome Ave) line transfer to the .

[GojiMet86]

to 241 St

to Dyre Av

 

No.

[Guest lance25]

Another thing, why do people have to always attack a person who wants to know what service would be like a different way?

 

So this person asked about the (2)/(5) swap in the bronx, so tell him/her it wont work & why & move on. You dont have to get pissed at them for asking a simple question!

 

I don't see anyone attacking him for his inquiry. However, I do find it mighty suspicious that as soon as the Southern End swap was shot down, this thread popped up. The service patterns on the IRT are the way they are to serve the most riders efficiently. Switching the north terminals would require more riders to transfer at E 180 St or 149 St-Grand Concourse for the train heading for their destination. The doesn't run to 241 St outside of rush hours for the same reason the doesn't run to Dyre at all; there's little demand for it. You can't change the system for the minority of riders at the expense of the majority.

[Nova RTS 9147]

WHY should this happen? There's a reason why the IRT is the way it currently is, so what cost/passenger benefit would there be to change things around?

[Roadcruiser1]

The IRT system should be left alone. No extensions no nothing. It's fine the way it was built, why can't people get that? Jesus it's like the IRT fanfare now. All of them should be left alone which includes the .

[MikeGerald]

Please note that up until 1965 or so, the #2 train was the train that traveled to/from Dyre Avenue as well as to/from east 180th Street and 241st Street. At late nights (at from the mid-1950's forward) the #2 train operated as an all local to/from 241st Street. Meaning that the #2 train was a complicated line.

 

Up until the 1965 change - #5 trains traveled to/from 241st Street, and the #5 train was the regular service through out the entire Bronx-White Plains Road Line. The #5 train also operated a "through-express run" rush hours. Considering the signage on the trains and their markings - it could be confusing to the riders as to what trains went where at what time.

 

In 1965, the MTA switched the #2 and #5 routes - where #2 trains ran full-time to/from 241st Street, and the #5 train ran to/from Dyre Avenue basically full-time (except the late nights shuttle operation), and rush hour only service to/from 241st Street (later changed to 238th Street).

 

In sum the service pattern was made simpler. The #2 would become the full-time 24/7/365 route that served all stations - it is predictable. The #5 would become the route that "changes" - rush hour through express for 241st Street trains (later 238th Street, and much later Dyre Avenue trains rush hour express), when day-time service ends - there's the Dyre Avenue shuttle.

 

Thus the #2 train line gets the train yard at 239th Street - operation of the line is simpler. The #5 gets the train yards nearest the 180th Street station - Unionport, etc - a simpler operation. A small amount of #5 trains gets stored at 239th Street - and these become the rush hour put-ins. Again a simpler operation for these Bronx train routes. Yes - the keep it simple principle in operation.

 

On the Brooklyn end of the IRT lines - the terminals have always changed depending upon the needs of the TA - there's nothing "natural" about any of it. There the Brooklyn locals get better access to Flatbush and New Lots because of the way the tracks/tunnels were built. The riders take what they need to get to/from their destinations. Plenty of folks change at the express stations for the trains that they need.

 

For a long period of time (up to the 1980's or so) the #2 ran to New Lots Avenue, and the #3 to Flatbush Avenue - why switch these terminals - simple the #3 only had a small train yard at 148th street, while the #2 had a huge Bronx train yard. Simple switch - the #3 gets the 148th street yard AND the New Lots train yard - while almost all of the #2 trains get stored/maintained/cleaned in the Bronx at 239th Street. It was not rider preferences for the switch - that's a silly notion - it simply was the needs of the TA as the reason for the switch.

 

In another message on this forum - I created a lengthy message that described all of the train service on the White Plain Road line since the first days of its creation. For a very long time in its history, the Dyre Avenue line WAS a shuttle operation that evolved out of a bankrupt railroad - then connected to the IRT elevated line in the mid-1950's.

 

So no - it was not about rider preferences or some "natural" inclination of the riders. It was a simple decision of how to service the White Plain Road line with the fewest hassles or problems for the TA. It is a three track line - something is going to be local - no matter how much some train fans seem to like express train runs, or want to make things complicated.

 

Right now the transit directions are clear and simple. When the #5 train is not running take the #2, change to/from the #4 at 149th Street-Grand Concourse, or to/from the Dyre Avenue shuttle at East 180th Street. A siimple easy to understand statement.

 

It is difficult to come up with any pattern that is more simpler - that provides 24/7/365 service to the westside, access to Lexington Avenue stations, service to/from Dyre Avenue, and adequate service to all of the Bronx local stations. Then to top it all off - to explain the transit service on maps and other signage.

 

One part of the reason why some transit fans prefer to keep things as they are in this case - is because it is very difficult (given the train tracks/tunnels/stations and basic ridership) to create a much simpler pattern than what is presently in operation.

 

Mike

[mark1447]

Actually there is more of a demand for service along Nostrand Ave. the only reason most people take the along Nostrand Ave is, the often has to wait at President St for either a or to pass, as the only has to wait for the to pass, so people take the to Franklin Ave & transfer to the . But there is a bigger demand for the along Nostrand than the .

 

Another thing, why do people have to always attack a person who wants to know what service would be like a different way?

 

So this person asked about the (2)/(5) swap in the bronx, so tell him/her it wont work & why & move on. You dont have to get pissed at them for asking a simple question!

 

The reason this wont work is, the Bronx has the opposite problem Brooklyn does. Along the entire white plains line there is a bigger demand for west side service. From Wakefield-241 St, all the way till 149 St-Grand Concourse there is a bigger demand for the train, even at 149 St, the people from the (Jerome Ave) line transfer to the .

 

People would take the over the at times on the Nostrand Line because it runs express in Brooklyn as opposed to the running local. But once the gets to Nevins, you see people crossing over for any Broadway/7th Ave service.. But even with that, that doesn't mean the should be kicked out of Brooklyn and put to South Ferry like the last thread..

 

Express service is popular for some, but once cut on certain routes, people will take the local instead.

 

In the Bronx, many AM riders who live along White Plains Road would take the directly to Manhattan, a lot of them don't waste there time getting off at 180th Street just to get off at 149th for getting back on the . They lose a seat and may not be able to get on that train because of crowd. And IT IS crowd.

 

Also, no one is arguing in here, the thing is, how many swap threads are we going to see in this forum? You know that there are some people who places fire on a thread when made.. Just let it be and keep it to yourself.

 

The goal of the MTA is to save money and keeping things simple for the people who ride there system everyday.

 

We should be glad we have train service running around late, regardless of service patters around. Systems like SEPTA dont even have late night train service on its MFL/ Broad Street subway, replaced by shuttle buses completely.

[TwoTimer]

In the AM, those that wait for the want Lex service, or are getting off at Boro Hall (remember, at Boro Hall 7Av people either have to walk over to the Lex side or Broadway side to leave the train). It's not solely about the "express express".

[B35 via Church]

Actually there is more of a demand for service along Nostrand Ave. the only reason most people take the along Nostrand Ave is, the often has to wait at President St for either a or to pass, as the only has to wait for the to pass, so people take the to Franklin Ave & transfer to the . But there is a bigger demand for the along Nostrand than the .

 

Another thing, why do people have to always attack a person who wants to know what service would be like a different way?

 

So this person asked about the (2)/(5) swap in the bronx, so tell him/her it wont work & why & move on. You dont have to get pissed at them for asking a simple question!

whoa whoa, wtf is this.....

 

Don't direct these type of broad sweeping ass statements at me, first of all..... Especially when I'm not guilty of any of it.... Nowhere in MY post did I attack GreatOne2k, nor am I pissed at him... hell, I just had a friendly PM exchange w/ the guy... So there goes how damn pissed I am at him....

 

Furthermore, A simple difference in opinion doesn't equate to an attack....

 

As far as your reasoning as to why you say there's more a demand for the .... The also has to wait at president street, regardless if it's for one less line; so in no way, shape, or form is that any type of formidable conclusion as to it showing more demand for 5's than 2's around here.....

 

That's like sittin up there sayin there's more demand for the N than there is for the Q @ dekalb in the morning simply b/c N's have "priority"....

 

There are more people making their way onto 2's than anything, especially at church.... 5 train arrives on the platform, more ppl. back off (as opposed to the 2) and lemme tell you some'n else, more folks are xferring off 5's to 2's (or 3's) at Nevins, than you see folks xferring off 2's for 4's at Franklin (or nevins) in the morning... Let's not forget those you see making the mad dash at the back of the boro hall station for the manhattan bound 2/3.... click clack, click clack, click clack.... Seriously now.....

 

Only reason you'll see more ppl flocking to the eastern pkwy express during the PM rush is b/c ppl. tryna get home... so they'll take the "fastest" line available....

 

 

People would take the 5 over the at 2 times on the Nostrand Line because it runs express in Brooklyn as opposed to the 2 running local. But once the 2 gets to Nevins, you see people crossing over for any Broadway/7th Ave service..

Exactly what goes on, and it's been goin on for the longest... and hell, I've done it a multitude of times....

 

When I used to take the to get to work, and I was runnin late, I would hop on the if it was the train that came first.... Usually a & a or would meet up at atlantic.... both trains eventually pull into Nevins, and you'd note more of a passenger flow heading towards the 2/3 than you did towards the 5....

[GreatOne2k]

Another (2)/(5) swap thread.....

 

Did you made this thread because of the last one of swapping in Brooklyn?

 

For me No.

 

Just leave it how it is.

 

White Plains Road customers want direct Lenox/Broadway/7th Ave Service, Dyre customers want Lexington Service.

 

Just because there is a G/O at this time with the (2)/(5) swapping lines, doesn't mean it should be like that.

 

Go to 180th Street during the 2 / 5 swap G/O and see a bunch of passengers transferring to get to ether Dyre or 241st and you tell me if we need swapping. People don't like this idea. Maybe some like it, but that percentage of people is small.

 

If people on the WPR wants service go anywhere between 180th and Mott for service. The customers can do the same.

 

Rush hour peak they already have the going up to 238th, but even with that, that doesn't mean there is high demand for full time (5)s to 238th or 241th.

 

During the PM rush many trains do not even go to 238 St, they end at Gun Hill Rd.

 

Many people will not even bother transferring to the , they will transfer to the making that line even more crowded. One could make the case that the current setup encourages the and to be packed and the to be empty (which of course makes it easier for MTA to cut service and add to the crowding of the and ). During parts of weekday evenings the is more frequent than the (10 instead of 12 minutes).

 

Woodlawn Heights may like this GO. Since the Bx34 was discontinued on weekends, those riders don't have any direct access to the , MTA wants then to use the Bx31 to 233 St, the current GO gives Woodlawn Heights a direct transfer to the at 233 St.

[Urbanfortitude]

Hahah of course. Since someone had to start a discussion about the south end, someone decides to start one about the north. Some of you need an additional hobby.

[GreatOne2k]

Hahah of course. Since someone had to start a discussion about the south end, someone decides to start one about the north. Some of you need an additional hobby.

 

Some of you who have problems with certain discussions need to stay out of them instead of making dumb comments.

[TriboroughBridge]

whoa whoa, wtf is this.....

 

Don't direct these type of broad sweeping ass statements at me, first of all..... Especially when I'm not guilty of any of it.... Nowhere in MY post did I attack GreatOne2k, nor am I pissed at him... hell, I just had a friendly PM exchange w/ the guy... So there goes how damn pissed I am at him....

 

Furthermore, A simple difference in opinion doesn't equate to an attack....

 

As far as your reasoning as to why you say there's more a demand for the .... The also has to wait at president street, regardless if it's for one less line; so in no way, shape, or form is that any type of formidable conclusion as to it showing more demand for 5's than 2's around here.....

 

That's like sittin up there sayin there's more demand for the N than there is for the Q @ dekalb in the morning simply b/c N's have "priority"....

 

There are more people making their way onto 2's than anything, especially at church.... 5 train arrives on the platform, more ppl. back off (as opposed to the 2) and lemme tell you some'n else, more folks are xferring off 5's to 2's (or 3's) at Nevins, than you see folks xferring off 2's for 4's at Franklin (or nevins) in the morning... Let's not forget those you see making the mad dash at the back of the boro hall station for the manhattan bound 2/3.... click clack, click clack, click clack.... Seriously now.....

 

Only reason you'll see more ppl flocking to the eastern pkwy express during the PM rush is b/c ppl. tryna get home... so they'll take the "fastest" line available....

 

 

 

Exactly what goes on, and it's been goin on for the longest... and hell, I've done it a multitude of times....

 

When I used to take the to get to work, and I was runnin late, I would hop on the if it was the train that came first.... Usually a & a or would meet up at atlantic.... both trains eventually pull into Nevins, and you'd note more of a passenger flow heading towards the 2/3 than you did towards the 5....

 

ok, first of all even a friend you can pissed at. second when I wrote to stop attacking the guy I wasnt looking at anybody specific, I just quoted you, so it looked like I was talking to you, but I was talking to anybody who did or was going to attack him for asking a simple question. I'm sorry if I accused you of anything:)

 

Third, while it is true people take the or till nevins st to get faster service to the or , there still is a bigger demand for Lexington Ave service in Brooklyn.

 

I've been on the , , & between Brooklyn & Manhattan & The Bronx & Manhattan (mostly during the day around 11:30) & by the time the or reach Clark St & the & reach Borough Hall Lexington trains are always more crowded.

 

The opposite is true for The Bronx. By the time the reaches 149 St & the reaches 138 St, the is usually more crowded.

[TwoTimer]

The also makes more stops in the Bronx, and has a greater population base to draw from than the does. It also is the only train in the Bronx (save the ) that gives direct west side and Harlem access. There are three lines providing east side access, not to mention all the express buses in Bronx two fare zones serve the east side as well.

[B35 via Church]

ok, first of all even a friend you can pissed at. second when I wrote to stop attacking the guy I wasnt looking at anybody specific, I just quoted you, so it looked like I was talking to you, but I was talking to anybody who did or was going to attack him for asking a simple question. I'm sorry if I accused you of anything

 

Third, while it is true people take the or till nevins st to get faster service to the or , there still is a bigger demand for Lexington Ave service in Brooklyn.

 

Cool beans, don't worry about it :tup:

 

Anyway, with that earlier point of yours about 5's being more in demand than 2's here, I'm not convinced.... and the way I see it, neither would most of us around this section of Brooklyn.... delays/waits at President st itself doesn't dictate the demand of a subway line.... You're gonna have to come with something other than that....

 

 

 

I've been on the , , & between Brooklyn & Manhattan & The Bronx & Manhattan (mostly during the day around 11:30) & by the time the or reach Clark St & the & reach Borough Hall Lexington trains are always more crowded.

 

If you're talking about outbound, all that shows is that ridership is heavier along the Lex, than it is along 7th av in Manhattan..... That is not indicative of the demand within Brooklyn....

 

If you're talking about inbound, well, there are more 4 train riders than there are 5 train riders in brooklyn... a lot of 3 train riders xfer to the 4 @ utica.... so yeah it's gonna appear that way..... that doesn't tell me 5's are more sought after than 2's.....

[TriboroughBridge]

Cool beans, don't worry about it :tup:

 

Anyway, with that earlier point of yours about 5's being more in demand than 2's here, I'm not convinced.... and the way I see it, neither would most of us around this section of Brooklyn.... delays/waits at President st itself doesn't dictate the demand of a subway line.... You're gonna have to come with something other than that....

 

 

 

 

 

If you're talking about outbound, all that shows is that ridership is heavier along the Lex, than it is along 7th av in Manhattan..... That is not indicative of the demand within Brooklyn....

 

If you're talking about inbound, well, there are more 4 train riders than there are 5 train riders in brooklyn... a lot of 3 train riders xfer to the 4 @ utica.... so yeah it's gonna appear that way..... that doesn't tell me 5's are more sought after than 2's.....

 

Are you saying that there is a bigger demand for 7 ave than Lexington Ave?

 

I dont know, by my station, Sterling St, people flock after the even if you can see the coming down the tunnel from Winthrop St. & like I said by the time the arives into Manhattan the train is kinda crowded, especially during rush hours.

[B35 via Church]

Are you saying that there is a bigger demand for 7 ave than Lexington Ave?

Overall? Of course not....

 

 

I dont know, by my station, Sterling St, people flock after the even if you can see the coming down the tunnel from Winthrop St. & like I said by the time the arives into Manhattan the train is kinda crowded, especially during rush hours.

lol...

 

Most likely b/c by time trains reach Sterling, there aint no room to get on 2's (hell, that happens at Winthrop in the morning)... so they take 5's (which they can get on a little easier) & ride it out to nevins.... Nevins, b/c they can possibly catch another train ahead of the 2 that they couldn't get on prior... the train ahead of that is usually a .... and like I said before a eastern pkwy express & an eastern pkwy local have a tendency to meet up at atlantic....

 

If it's scheduled for that to happen, I don't know.... maybe just coincidence, but it is a common occurrence.....

 

 

Your station is Sterling... fine.

My station is Church av... and there are easily more people boarding 2's than 5's..... Church av is where you start to see people squeezing/pushing onto trains...

 

Thank the good folks out in the rockaways for that extra crowding :mad:

[Roadcruiser1]

There isn't a bigger demand for any line. The "MAIN PROBLEM" is because the Lexington Avenue Line is the SOLE subway line that only serves the EAST SIDE OF MANHATTAN. It is going to see a lot more usage when people need to get to the EAST SIDE, but there is demand for the WEST SIDE as well. That is why the Second Avenue Subway is under construction to alleviate congestion on the Lexington Avenue Line. If the Second Avenue Subway was completed a long time ago we won't have this or problem we are talking about now.

[Trainmaster5]

Please note that up until 1965 or so, the #2 train was the train that traveled to/from Dyre Avenue as well as to/from east 180th Street and 241st Street. At late nights (at from the mid-1950's forward) the #2 train operated as an all local to/from 241st Street. Meaning that the #2 train was a complicated line.

 

Up until the 1965 change - #5 trains traveled to/from 241st Street, and the #5 train was the regular service through out the entire Bronx-White Plains Road Line. The #5 train also operated a "through-express run" rush hours. Considering the signage on the trains and their markings - it could be confusing to the riders as to what trains went where at what time.

 

In 1965, the MTA switched the #2 and #5 routes - where #2 trains ran full-time to/from 241st Street, and the #5 train ran to/from Dyre Avenue basically full-time (except the late nights shuttle operation), and rush hour only service to/from 241st Street (later changed to 238th Street).

 

In sum the service pattern was made simpler. The #2 would become the full-time 24/7/365 route that served all stations - it is predictable. The #5 would become the route that "changes" - rush hour through express for 241st Street trains (later 238th Street, and much later Dyre Avenue trains rush hour express), when day-time service ends - there's the Dyre Avenue shuttle.

 

Thus the #2 train line gets the train yard at 239th Street - operation of the line is simpler. The #5 gets the train yards nearest the 180th Street station - Unionport, etc - a simpler operation. A small amount of #5 trains gets stored at 239th Street - and these become the rush hour put-ins. Again a simpler operation for these Bronx train routes. Yes - the keep it simple principle in operation.

 

On the Brooklyn end of the IRT lines - the terminals have always changed depending upon the needs of the TA - there's nothing "natural" about any of it. There the Brooklyn locals get better access to Flatbush and New Lots because of the way the tracks/tunnels were built. The riders take what they need to get to/from their destinations. Plenty of folks change at the express stations for the trains that they need.

 

For a long period of time (up to the 1980's or so) the #2 ran to New Lots Avenue, and the #3 to Flatbush Avenue - why switch these terminals - simple the #3 only had a small train yard at 148th street, while the #2 had a huge Bronx train yard. Simple switch - the #3 gets the 148th street yard AND the New Lots train yard - while almost all of the #2 trains get stored/maintained/cleaned in the Bronx at 239th Street. It was not rider preferences for the switch - that's a silly notion - it simply was the needs of the TA as the reason for the switch.

 

In another message on this forum - I created a lengthy message that described all of the train service on the White Plain Road line since the first days of its creation. For a very long time in its history, the Dyre Avenue line WAS a shuttle operation that evolved out of a bankrupt railroad - then connected to the IRT elevated line in the mid-1950's.

 

So no - it was not about rider preferences or some "natural" inclination of the riders. It was a simple decision of how to service the White Plain Road line with the fewest hassles or problems for the TA. It is a three track line - something is going to be local - no matter how much some train fans seem to like express train runs, or want to make things complicated.

 

Right now the transit directions are clear and simple. When the #5 train is not running take the #2, change to/from the #4 at 149th Street-Grand Concourse, or to/from the Dyre Avenue shuttle at East 180th Street. A siimple easy to understand statement.

 

It is difficult to come up with any pattern that is more simpler - that provides 24/7/365 service to the westside, access to Lexington Avenue stations, service to/from Dyre Avenue, and adequate service to all of the Bronx local stations. Then to top it all off - to explain the transit service on maps and other signage.

 

One part of the reason why some transit fans prefer to keep things as they are in this case - is because it is very difficult (given the train tracks/tunnels/stations and basic ridership) to create a much simpler pattern than what is presently in operation.

 

Mike

I couldn't have described it better. You saved me from having to type out another history lesson about the White Plains Road line. As for the and terminal swap back in the eighties remember the had two maintenance barns at the time, 239 and New Lots, while the had no barn of it's own. Made it easier for Car Equipment to maintain the Lenox fleet.

[B35 via Church]

There isn't a bigger demand for any line.

 

The "MAIN PROBLEM" is because the Lexington Avenue Line is the SOLE subway line that only serves the EAST SIDE OF MANHATTAN. It is going to see a lot more usage when people need to get to the EAST SIDE, but there is demand for the WEST SIDE as well. That is why the Second Avenue Subway is under construction to alleviate congestion on the Lexington Avenue Line. If the Second Avenue Subway was completed a long time ago we won't have this or problem we are talking about now.

 

there absolutely is a bigger demand for a line.... aint nothin 50-50 across the board all over the system where there are pairings....