Why not local on weekends or switch after Pacific Street?

[alejr88]

OK, I have a beef with a lack of Sixth Avenue service from/to Manhattan at DeKalb Avenue during weekends. It's one thing to just take the and ( late nights) to Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street or 34 Street-Herald Square but with switches north of the Pacific Street , why not make the train either run local via Fourth Avenue on weekends. The can keep it EXPRESS and trains can switch to the local track leaving Pacific Street northbound and the southbound train switch to the express track after leaving DeKalb Avenue. The reason I say this is because there are some riders that might want Sixth Avenue service on the Brighton Line since the ( does not run on weekends. In addition, wouldn't it be easier to transfer from an uptown train to the train on DeKalb Avenue than at Atlantic Avenue? At Atlantic Avenue many passengers have to walk longer to get to the Pacific Street platform to get to the than at DeKalb Avenue where you can transfer at the same platform. Now I don't know how to say this but is there a reason this has yet to happen? I'm sure the can use help from the on weekends but it could happen if those tracks I mentioned can't be used. Any thoughts? Opinions?

 

Image from nycsubway.org

[Roadcruiser1]

Uh Brighton Residents already have that option at Coney Island, and Atlantic Avenue. They also have that chance at 34th Street. Plus the stops at Dekalb, and you can easily hop on a southbound one.

[Abba]

OK, I have a beef with a lack of Sixth Avenue service from/to Manhattan at DeKalb Avenue during weekends. It's one thing to just take the and ( late nights) to Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street or 34 Street-Herald Square but with switches north of the Pacific Street , why not make the train either run local via Fourth Avenue on weekends. The can keep it EXPRESS and trains can switch to the local track leaving Pacific Street northbound and the southbound train switch to the express track after leaving DeKalb Avenue. The reason I say this is because there are some riders that might want Sixth Avenue service on the Brighton Line since the ( does not run on weekends. In addition, wouldn't it be easier to transfer from an uptown train to the train on DeKalb Avenue than at Atlantic Avenue? At Atlantic Avenue many passengers have to walk longer to get to the Pacific Street platform to get to the than at DeKalb Avenue where you can transfer at the same platform. Now I don't know how to say this but is there a reason this has yet to happen? I'm sure the can use help from the on weekends but it could happen if those tracks I mentioned can't be used. Any thoughts? Opinions?

 

Image from nycsubway.org

I agree like 80%.The D should definentely stop at DeKalb on the weekend.On the other hand though there would be less congestion by letting it go through the bypass since it dosent share a track with the ( on the weekend.However it would probobaly have to wait for the to cross to get to the Broadway side of the Manny Bridge so I guess it wouldn't really hurt to make the extra stop.If the can get to its side of the Manny Bridge without affecting the I say keep the bypass.Also I say keep the bypass if switching to Local would cause problems with merging tracks with on 2 track. A little off topic but correct me I'm I'm wrong.

 

Uptown local:2 track

Uptown express:4 track

Downtown express 3track

Downtown local:1 track

[lilbluefoxie]

I say keep it express, change across the platform for the for Dekalb, if you are going southbound you can move to the or at Herald Square. The Subway isnt designed to make every single possible destination a one seat ride, there are some times where you will need to transfer.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[TwoTimer]

I say keep it express, change across the platform for the for Dekalb, if you are going southbound you can move to the or at Herald Square. The Subway isnt designed to make every single possible destination a one seat ride, there are some times where you will need to transfer.

 

He was talking not about how to get to Dekalb from the (which is easy), but how to get to 6Av (Grand/B-way Laf/W4) from Brighton when the walk through the Atlantic-Pacific complex is cumbersome at best, and backtracking is a complete waste of time with weekend headways. In addition, getting to the Brighton from IND west side stations (with the exception of 34th) is cumbersome at best at a time when the Broadway line is on the east side of Manhattan.

 

About switching between Pacific and Dekalb, the would have to merge in with the after Dekalb (something it does not do except late evenings), then simultaneously split with the and merge with the to stop at Dekalb. Once leaving Dekalb n/b, there is nothing stopping the from accessing the 6Av side of the bridge, as it is running by itself. The and can access the switch at Gold St simultaneously when one is coming up from the bypass and the other from Dekalb.

 

Going south, there only is the to contend with. The and at the moment do not interfere with each other. That would change. When the and are on the bridge together, one goes first, while the other waits. After Dekalb, a switch protected by wheel detectors guards entry to the express track at Pacific. Generally speaking, TA does not want regular service to go through wheel detector areas (with the exception of the at Chambers evidently).

 

But for what is suggested here, it is unnecessary for the to stop at Dekalb, its a very niche situation at best. For riders looking for Broadway in Manhattan below Herald Sq, The makes all station stops in Manhattan. It has been said that Brighton people rather direct Broadway service than 6Av. For Brighton people looking for Grand/Bway Laf/W4 is really the only niche up for debate, and is it really worth changing the way a whole interlocking and line runs to give a handful of people a same-plat transfer during the day for three stations?

[Abba]

He was talking not about how to get to Dekalb from the (which is easy), but how to get to 6Av (Grand/B-way Laf/W4) from Brighton when the walk through the Atlantic-Pacific complex is cumbersome at best, and backtracking is a complete waste of time with weekend headways. In addition, getting to the Brighton from IND west side stations (with the exception of 34th) is cumbersome at best at a time when the Broadway line is on the east side of Manhattan.

 

About switching between Pacific and Dekalb, the would have to merge in with the after Dekalb (something it does not do except late evenings), then simultaneously split with the and merge with the to stop at Dekalb. Once leaving Dekalb n/b, there is nothing stopping the from accessing the 6Av side of the bridge, as it is running by itself. The and can access the switch at Gold St simultaneously when one is coming up from the bypass and the other from Dekalb.

 

Going south, there only is the to contend with. The and at the moment do not interfere with each other. That would change. When the and are on the bridge together, one goes first, while the other waits. After Dekalb, a switch protected by wheel detectors guards entry to the express track at Pacific. Generally speaking, TA does not want regular service to go through wheel detector areas (with the exception of the at Chambers evidently).

 

But for what is suggested here, it is unnecessary for the to stop at Dekalb, its a very niche situation at best. For riders looking for Broadway in Manhattan below Herald Sq, The makes all station stops in Manhattan. It has been said that Brighton people rather direct Broadway service than 6Av. For Brighton people looking for Grand/Bway Laf/W4 is really the only niche up for debate, and is it really worth changing the way a whole interlocking and line runs to give a handful of people a same-plat transfer during the day for three stations?

Are these wheel detectors only from the bridge track at DeKalb or also from the track?

[TwoTimer]

Are these wheel detectors only from the bridge track at DeKalb or also from the track?

 

The wheel detectors go from the 4Av local track to the 4Av express track, just north of Pacific Street southbound only. There are only a couple red-lunar white timers going from the express/bypass to the local track northbound, but the entire process is a slow go, and trains usually have to wait quite a while before proceeding, as the entire area is timed at ~12mph, even after the switch (the bypass is somewhat faster, and faster still after the turn into Dekalb-bypass). The best way to see what I'm talking about is via RFW, but of course those do not exist on the line. The line does have a few intervals that stop at Dekalb late evenings on weekdays after going express on 4Av (while the continues through the bypass).

[MikeGerald]

What is being talked about is a pattern that the MTA had for decades, where trains like the B (now D) and N-train would stop non-rush hours at the DeKalb Avenue station. This is not a new pattern of train movements but a pattern that was stopped when the B and D trains switched their Brooklyn routes in say 2001, when the Manhattan Bridge fully re-opened.

 

That is whatever trains were the 4th Avenue express trains crossed paths with the 4th Avenue local routes, and all of the Brighton Beach routes in both directions to stop at DeKalb Avenue.

 

Then as now, transit fans debated - talked - fussed - fumed - argued about this issue. The MTA's argument was that such switching operations tied up the DeKalb Avenue station with B (now D) and N trains crossing the paths of B (previously D) R and Q in both directions - creating conga lines of trains.

 

The bottom line is simple. The MTA "can" return to the previous pattern. They just DON'T want to return to that pattern. It is the MTA's railroad. They get to decide when, where, and how THEY will run THEIR trains and systems.

 

The MTA with the building or renovation of the Atlantic Avenue / Pacific Street train complex - essentially said that riders who want Sixth Avenue service will just have to transfer. Then the MTA reported that their surveys showed that the majority of Brighton Beach line riders preferred to travel along the Broadway Q line anyway.

 

It is the MTA's railroad - they can do what they want - it's their trains.

Mike

[Shortline Bus]

Aler while i am in agreement that the should stop at Dekalb on weekends, the provided a valid reason why it does not stop at that Downtown Brooklyn stop.

 

I read a newspaper article that soon after all '4' tracks of the Bridge re-opened in early 2004, it was fearful of how to switch to the local tracks at Pacific and vice versa CI-Bound. It stems from a major derailment in late 2000, when a then West End ( tried to do the complex switching between Dekalb and Pacific. Plus they also said that congestion problems would delay both the and at Dekalb.

 

So that the offical reason the says why it can not switch the now between Deklab and Pacific except during overnights.

 

 

OK, I have a beef with a lack of Sixth Avenue service from/to Manhattan at DeKalb Avenue during weekends. It's one thing to just take the and ( late nights) to Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street or 34 Street-Herald Square but with switches north of the Pacific Street , why not make the train either run local via Fourth Avenue on weekends. The can keep it EXPRESS and trains can switch to the local track leaving Pacific Street northbound and the southbound train switch to the express track after leaving DeKalb Avenue. The reason I say this is because there are some riders that might want Sixth Avenue service on the Brighton Line since the ( does not run on weekends. In addition, wouldn't it be easier to transfer from an uptown train to the train on DeKalb Avenue than at Atlantic Avenue? At Atlantic Avenue many passengers have to walk longer to get to the Pacific Street platform to get to the than at DeKalb Avenue where you can transfer at the same platform. Now I don't know how to say this but is there a reason this has yet to happen? I'm sure the can use help from the on weekends but it could happen if those tracks I mentioned can't be used. Any thoughts? Opinions?

 

Image from nycsubway.org

[E train line]

I do not believe Mta at all

[FriedChikkin]

Want 6th Ave service? Take the to Jay St Metrotech, transfer for the –all 6th Ave stops. Awesome. Want more weekend service? Extend the national work week into Saturday and/or Sunday, MTA would then extend their "Revenue" days and hours.

[checkmatechamp13]

What is being talked about is a pattern that the MTA had for decades, where trains like the B (now D) and N-train would stop non-rush hours at the DeKalb Avenue station. This is not a new pattern of train movements but a pattern that was stopped when the B and D trains switched their Brooklyn routes in say 2001, when the Manhattan Bridge fully re-opened.

 

 

 

The West End Line train (back then the () didn't stop at DeKalb Avenue, at least not during the few years before 2001.

 

The difference between now and then is that before, Brighton Line riders had access to 6th Avenue directly (through the ), and Broadway through the same-platform transfer to the at DeKalb Avenue. Nowadays, the Brighton Line only has easy access to Broadway because the doesn't serve 6th Avenue.

 

But I don't think it's worth having the go through all of that switching just to serve riders going to a few stations. The transfer at Atlantic Avenue is annoying, but doable (unlike the long passageway at 42nd Street/PA Bus Terminal). I don't think you could really count the ->-> as an option because of the ®'s crappy headways on the weekends.

[Urbanfortitude]

I say keep it express, change across the platform for the for Dekalb, if you are going southbound you can move to the or at Herald Square. The Subway isnt designed to make every single possible destination a one seat ride, there are some times where you will need to transfer.

 

This. Honestly the is never far behind the anyway. My experience with it especially going toward Manhattan is by the time I hit Atlantic, the is either 1 or 2 stops away.

[TwoTimer]

This. Honestly the is never far behind the anyway. My experience with it especially going toward Manhattan is by the time I hit Atlantic, the is either 1 or 2 stops away.

 

The schedule is designed that way, also the and are fairly close to each other too, one way or the other.

[Fresh Pond]

He was talking not about how to get to Dekalb from the (which is easy), but how to get to 6Av (Grand/B-way Laf/W4) from Brighton when the walk through the Atlantic-Pacific complex is cumbersome at best, and backtracking is a complete waste of time with weekend headways. In addition, getting to the Brighton from IND west side stations (with the exception of 34th) is cumbersome at best at a time when the Broadway line is on the east side of Manhattan.

 

About switching between Pacific and Dekalb, the would have to merge in with the after Dekalb (something it does not do except late evenings), then simultaneously split with the and merge with the to stop at Dekalb. Once leaving Dekalb n/b, there is nothing stopping the from accessing the 6Av side of the bridge, as it is running by itself. The and can access the switch at Gold St simultaneously when one is coming up from the bypass and the other from Dekalb.

 

Going south, there only is the to contend with. The and at the moment do not interfere with each other. That would change. When the and are on the bridge together, one goes first, while the other waits. After Dekalb, a switch protected by wheel detectors guards entry to the express track at Pacific. Generally speaking, TA does not want regular service to go through wheel detector areas (with the exception of the at Chambers evidently).

 

But for what is suggested here, it is unnecessary for the to stop at Dekalb, its a very niche situation at best. For riders looking for Broadway in Manhattan below Herald Sq, The makes all station stops in Manhattan. It has been said that Brighton people rather direct Broadway service than 6Av. For Brighton people looking for Grand/Bway Laf/W4 is really the only niche up for debate, and is it really worth changing the way a whole interlocking and line runs to give a handful of people a same-plat transfer during the day for three stations?

 

This may sound like a noobish question but what exactly do the wheel dectors do?

[Eric B]

They raise the trip arms as soon as overspeed is detected. Basically, a "zero-shot timer".

Since the southbound switch was set for 10mph, you had to do 5, and it was excruciatingly slow, and even the people on the platform would be like "come on already". They did use it regularly as late as the 2001-4 service plan, with the crossing over, where I had to go through this every week. It really is not worth running regular service over that.

I did send in an idea once to try to straighten that switch a bit, but it's on a curve so it's difficult, and they don't want to spend on tunnel reinforcement anyway.

[alejr88]

I mean, you can also consider other route options that already exist. You can take the R one stop to F at Jay.

 

I completely forgot about Jay Street Metrotech. That station is right after DeKalb Avenue heading uptown on the Montague Tunnel tracks where one can transfer to the 6th Avenue F and 8th Avenue A & C.

 

He was talking not about how to get to Dekalb from the (which is easy), but how to get to 6Av (Grand/B-way Laf/W4) from Brighton when the walk through the Atlantic-Pacific complex is cumbersome at best, and backtracking is a complete waste of time with weekend headways. In addition, getting to the Brighton from IND west side stations (with the exception of 34th) is cumbersome at best at a time when the Broadway line is on the east side of Manhattan.

 

About switching between Pacific and Dekalb, the would have to merge in with the after Dekalb (something it does not do except late evenings), then simultaneously split with the and merge with the to stop at Dekalb. Once leaving Dekalb n/b, there is nothing stopping the from accessing the 6Av side of the bridge, as it is running by itself. The and can access the switch at Gold St simultaneously when one is coming up from the bypass and the other from Dekalb.

 

Going south, there only is the to contend with. The and at the moment do not interfere with each other. That would change. When the and are on the bridge together, one goes first, while the other waits. After Dekalb, a switch protected by wheel detectors guards entry to the express track at Pacific. Generally speaking, TA does not want regular service to go through wheel detector areas (with the exception of the at Chambers evidently).

 

But for what is suggested here, it is unnecessary for the to stop at Dekalb, its a very niche situation at best. For riders looking for Broadway in Manhattan below Herald Sq, The makes all station stops in Manhattan. It has been said that Brighton people rather direct Broadway service than 6Av. For Brighton people looking for Grand/Bway Laf/W4 is really the only niche up for debate, and is it really worth changing the way a whole interlocking and line runs to give a handful of people a same-plat transfer during the day for three stations?

 

Aler while i am in agreement that the should stop at Dekalb on weekends, the provided a valid reason why it does not stop at that Downtown Brooklyn stop.

 

I read a newspaper article that soon after all '4' tracks of the Bridge re-opened in early 2004, it was fearful of how to switch to the local tracks at Pacific and vice versa CI-Bound. It stems from a major derailment in late 2000, when a then West End ( tried to do the complex switching between Dekalb and Pacific. Plus they also said that congestion problems would delay both the and at Dekalb.

 

So that the offical reason the says why it can not switch the now between DeKalb and Pacific except during overnights.

 

 

Thanks you two. Shortline I read about that derailment in 2000.

 

On June 25 2000, B train derails at DeKalb Ave. Brooklyn, around 10:00 pm. Approximately 70 people injured. First three cars of southbound train jumped the tracks south of DeKalb requiring approx. 70 feet of track to be replaced. Service was restored by 6:00 am the next morning.

 

 

Now I completely understand why trains that run express cannot stop at DeKalb, I mean they could but barring delays on the bypass or derailments. I remember during the work car derailment near DeKalb Ave, I took a train from 36 Street and ran express to Pacific Street. After that it stopped at DeKalb Avenue and took off to the Manhattan Bridge. As for the running local, I don't think West End riders will be happy with that. Roadcruiser wouldn't be happy either if that happens. So my guess is those tracks are just for emergency and nothing else.

[TwoTimer]

Nowadays whenever I'm on that wheel detector it says 15, I go around 7 (one point all the way up the hill and all the way into Pacific, lol). I've heard people even TSS said you can go 14, but they ain't gonna sit on that bench with me. And they take overspeed on switches VERY SERIOUSLY, it is probably the most serious allegation a T/O can get caught up in that doesn't involve hitting a signal (even though activating wheel detector is 'hitting a signal'). Even northbound without the wheel detectors its two one shots in a row, then 10mph all the way to the resume (which I think is a [10 CAR] in this case), then the slow timers that don't clear much faster after that all the way into Dekalb. Just made a painstakingly slow process even slower. Imagine if you were on that and you had to wait for that to practically get into Dekalb before you can move out of Pacific yourself...