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6 Lexington Ave

FASTRACK Subway Repair Discussion

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Overnights on the ELs i dont like. Theres gonna be noise problems for those living next to one!

 

While the late night cuts might be a good idea. Id also put some expansion to weekend as well, but LIMITED g/os. This way things can get done faster during the day and night, rather then just every night.

 

Even with all these changes, this doesnt mean G/os will be done for good! More work every day!

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Even after reading the press release, it still doesnt answer the question of whether or not there will be just as many disruptions on the weekend as there are now. Maybe I just overlooked it but I want to see what's up with that.

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The report states that each line will see a shutdown once per quarter.

 

From the statements, I can infer that there will be no other late night GO's on these lines other than the shutdowns and that there will be a reduction in weekend work.

 

Most of the ugly weekend GO's are on elevated structures, where night work rarely takes place. ( (F) Culver, (1) Bronx, (J) Jamaica Av, etc.)

 

It's those 24/7 ones that I don't like. The (D)(2) ones are fine (if (cool.png service in the Bronx continues), but (F) skipping Sutphin/Van Wyck/75 during AM rush will be a major pain. Add to that the closure of an entrance at Briarwood/Van Wyck to drive residents mad.

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But the point is that on the UES, they're not doing work at night.

 

He's saying that whether the area is the South Bronx or the UES, they shouldn't be doing loud work at night, whether its above ground or underground.

 

During the day, since most people are out and about, the noise restrictions should be lifted (though they shouldn't be louder than necessary) and again, this applies to everywhere in the city, whether the train is above ground or underground and regardless of the demographics of the area.

 

I know what he's saying. No need to repeat it. I understand it very clearly. You're jumping in and interpreting when there is no need to. And how do you know that they aren't doing work on the UES at night? There have been other construction projects where the (MTA) WASN'T supposed to work at night and they did so without stating so officially. Some residents on the UES have indeed complained about noise at night.

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For example -- on the Lexington AVenue line where they want to close it down from Grand Central station to Atlantic Avenue - the easiest thing to do is direct riders to/from the N, Q and R lines from the 59th Street-Lexington AVenue station to the Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street complex. The N, Q and R lines would be the connecting lines. In lower Manhattan from about 14th street through downtown Brooklyn the #4, #5 and #6 lines parallel the N, Q, and R lines - however the N and Q lines offer the benefit of a quicker trip to/from Brooklyn over the Manhattan Bridge, while the R line provides a parallel trip to the Bowling Green/Whitehall Street area for SI Ferry riders, and the Court Street section of Brooklyn. So in this instances - having Lexington Avenue riders change to/from the N, Q, and R lines is a good alternative.

 

There is a however. The however is that the N, Q and R lines from 59th Street to 14th Street basically start to veer away from the eastside to head to/from Seventh Avenue / Times Square / Herald Square to travel under Broadway. Thus having shuttle buses traveling along Park Avenue South from 42nd Street to 14th Street would be a good idea. The bus riders could pick up the N, Q and R trains at 14th Street-Union Square to further their journey.

 

There are very few subway lines that parallel each other so well that one could line really substitute for the other, without some compromises.

 

Mike

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Guest lance25

It would make the most sense. Splitting up the (A) costs money than it would by just teaming it up with the (F). Plus, there's plenty of room in Rutgers for the (A) and (F) to run in tandem. The only minor thing is that the © and (M) will probably have to end regular service early, but that will happen on a lot of the so-called supplemental lines during these pilots.

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It would make the most sense. Splitting up the (A) costs money than it would by just teaming it up with the (F). Plus, there's plenty of room in Rutgers for the (A) and (F) to run in tandem. The only minor thing is that the © and (M) will probably have to end regular service early, but that will happen on a lot of the so-called supplemental lines during these pilots.

 

Its overnight, whether a particular tube can even handle an extra line shouldn't even be brought up. The idea for the 8Av shutdown would be (A)© over 6Av from 59-Jay (the (E) can terminate at 2Av). The (1) makes up the missing West side service easily, and can be accessed from 59-CC, too. The © stops running early enough, with both last trips living just after 10 from both ends. The (M) runs slightly later, but doesn't even get into downtown Brooklyn.

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While the #1 line runs along the Westside, and would seem to be the obvious choice to be used by riders who would normally use the A, C and E lines - during the closure. There is a problem - if the A train is diverted from 59th Street-CC all of the way (following the D and F-train pathways) to/from Jay Street-Borough Hall - the #1 line never again connects with the A or C trains.

 

As is well known, the subways especially the IND lines were not always created to work well with the other transit lines. With these kinds of closures - travel directions have to be provided on the "other segments" that allow the usual riders to get to/from their usual destinations. Hopefully the travel directions does not have riders jumping through several hoops (transfers) as alternatives to complete their usual routes.

 

Suggesting that riders take the #1 (in this example) when that line does not connect back to the original that's being diverted is just bad transit advice. As I said in another message, just because some transit lines appear close to other lines does not mean that everything is peachy.

 

Mike

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Guest lance25

@Mike: Sure, the (1) and (A) won't connect to each other because of this, but the two lines do parallel each other. It's a much closer alternative as well, at least a better one than hoofing it all the way to Sixth Avenue. Riders can use the (1) for a majority of the closed (A) line stations and transfer to the (2) for Chambers St-WTC and Fulton St. For service to the Fulton Street line from Manhattan, riders can transfer at either South Ferry or Borough Hall to the (N) and take that train to Jay St where (A) trains are available.

 

No, it's not the best idea ever, but if this mitigates some of the everlasting construction projects without having to shut down lines 24/7, riders will have to compromise. After all, if everything goes according to plan, it will only be a few nights per quarter.

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While the #1 line runs along the Westside, and would seem to be the obvious choice to be used by riders who would normally use the A, C and E lines - during the closure. There is a problem - if the A train is diverted from 59th Street-CC all of the way (following the D and F-train pathways) to/from Jay Street-Borough Hall - the #1 line never again connects with the A or C trains.

 

As is well known, the subways especially the IND lines were not always created to work well with the other transit lines. With these kinds of closures - travel directions have to be provided on the "other segments" that allow the usual riders to get to/from their usual destinations. Hopefully the travel directions does not have riders jumping through several hoops (transfers) as alternatives to complete their usual routes.

 

Suggesting that riders take the #1 (in this example) when that line does not connect back to the original that's being diverted is just bad transit advice. As I said in another message, just because some transit lines appear close to other lines does not mean that everything is peachy.

 

Mike

Which is true if all four tracks are closed. With the width between them at times, one of the tracks (either local) can remain open with work freely going on the two in the opposite direction. Its more of a hybrid setup, but all options are obviously on the table now. Flagging rules only call for personnel and equipment when trains are on the worked on track or the one next to it. A "buffer" track is almost never used, however.

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I am just saying that a simple statement - "well the #1 train is nearby" (in this example) does not always reflect how real travelers have to make connections to/from the lines that they really want or need.

 

Just for example - take a rider at 23rd Street/9th Avenue who has to travel to Nostrand Avenue, in Brooklyn. Saying - "well take the #1". Yes, that works for someone who confines their trips only to Manhattan. However many riders don't and can not confine themselves to Manhattan - they need to get to/from their usual stations in the "other Boroughs". So connecting the "segments" is important. Now how many transfers will that rider need? How much walking to nearby or not very nearby stations will be needed? How much "hassle" is "too much"?

 

Yes, the MTA or even us regular folk can draw up "plans" of what stations would be closed, what trains would be diverted where. That is all fine and good. Yes, it's an exercise over how to route the trains. Now just try to imagine having to take a trip from point A to point B - using what is supposed to be nearby one's usual station to get to one's usual destination.

 

Please note that I am not jumping upon anyone. For example on the Lexington Avenue line - except for the section from 14th Street to 59th Street. Suggesting that riders take the N, Q, and R trains is good advice (downtown Manhattan and Brooklyn to/from Atlantic/Pacific) - however if I were the MTA - I'd provide shuttle bus service for the section of 42nd Street to 14th Street-Union Square since the N, Q and R trains simply do not parallel the #4, #5 or #6 lines between those streets. Now that is a workable transit plan for the riders that is easy to explain, it is "do-able".

 

For some of the closures - a workable alternative exists, however some of the closures require a bit more effort to provide alternatives, or maybe shuttle buses to make connections. Easy answers don't always exist.

 

Mike

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Yes, I really do want to see how they make out for the sector between 42-23rd, where there Broadway line is as much as 4 (!) crosstown blocks away. Generally speaking, these plans will highlight the lack of easy connections in Brooklyn...like there is no direct connection between the IRT and IND in Brooklyn (which was basically what you were saying) and even the IND and BMT one at Jay St is brand new. The IRT and BMT connect well, the BMT and IND only has Jay St, the IND and IRT has connections in Manhattan only, and the Fulton Mall area isn't exactly safe at night for walking transfers.

 

I wonder if they indeed will actually close all 4 tracks on the 8Av line because of this, as it is easy to leave one local track or the other open and just ask people to backtrack from W4 and Jay, with the idea that while all four tracks cannot be worked on, at least in Manhattan 3 can be closed off and 2 worked on without the need for flagging protection.

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First of all IMHO, these changes should only take place in the autumn and spring, with either shuttle buses, or extended late night bus substitutions. Weather can play a major part in such GOs.

 

Let's take a look at each of these shutdowns:

 

1. Lexington Avenue (4)(6) Shutdown between Grand Central and Atlantic Avenue

 

Alternatives:

 

7th Avenue
(3)
: All stops between New Lots Avenue and Borough Hall connecting to Manhattan. Supplemental service served by the local 2 train.

Transfer necessary to Broadway trains (N/Q/R) especially if traveling between Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. Transfer necessary to the Flushing
(7)
train to transfer in Manhattan between 7th and Lexington lines.

 

Broadway (N/Q): Connects with Brooklyn trains at Atlantic Avenue, and Lexington Avenue trains at 59th Street. Supplemental service served by the ® train running overnight and making local stops. Below 14th Street, the Broadway line parallels the Lexington Avenue line.

 

6th Avenue
(D)
: Connects with 4 at Atlantic Avenue and 161st Street. Should be promoted for certain passengers.

 

Shuttle Bus: Between 59th Street and 14th Street. Provides Midtown East riders connection to the Lexington Avenue line at 59th or 42nd Streets, and Broadway line N and R trains at 14th Street.

 

M1: A full length M1 bus running overnight may give Manhattan residents a one seat ride avoiding all of this mess during this time.

 

2. 7th Avenue line shutdown between 34th Street and Atlantic Avenue.

 

If they are particularly working on the tracks between Chambers and Atlantic Avenue, the
(2)
can run to South Ferry, and the
(3)
can run normal. The alternatives are easiest for this shutdown even if
(1)
service is affected.

 

Alternatives:

 

Lexington Avenue Line: The 4 and 5 trains would run in Brooklyn to New Lots and Flatbush Avenues in Brooklyn making all local stops. Would require a connection to the lines listed below or transfer at 42nd Street for the 7 or shuttle trains to connect to the 2 and 3 trains or stop at nearby stations.

 

Also what should be considered at this time is a northern terminal switch for the 2 and 5 trains (5 to 241 Street, 2 to Dyre), allowing through service for passengers traveling between the Bronx and Brooklyn.

 

Broadway Line:

 

The Q train would provide quick connection between Times Square and Atlantic Avenue for
(4)(5)
service to New Lots and Flatbush.

 

Sixth Avenue Line:

 

Between 34th Street and West 4th Streets, D train making local stops, can help people below 42nd Street get a train going to Brooklyn for connection with the
(4)(5)
train. The D would connect with the Seventh Avenue line at 59th Street and 14th Street. The D would connect with Lexington Avenue Service at Broadway-Lafayette and Atlantic Avenue.

 

Eighth Avenue Line:

 

The A would run parallel to the 1/2 making all stops between 42nd Street and Chamber Streets, and connect with the Lexington Avenue line at Fulton Street. During this time a night shuttle making local stops between 145th Street and West 4th Street, then via 6th Avenue to Pacific Street if trackwork requires 1 trains to be shutdown would be helpful.

 

3. Eighth Avenue Line Shutdown between 59th Street and Jay Street.

 

Most likely this would mean re-routing all A and E trains down 6th Avenue. Alternatives are for those not wishing to walk the extra two blocks.

 

Alternatives:

 

7th Avenue:

 

The 2 and 3 (extended to South Ferry) trains would provide local service for nearby A stops between Chambers Streets and 59th Streets. Transfer available to Sixth Avenue trains directly at 14th Street for E/F trains. Transfer to the Flushing Line at 42nd Street for service to Queens.

 

Sixth Avenue:

 

The A would run via 6th Avenue or the E would be extended down Fulton Street to Far Rockaway.

 

Connection to 7th Avenue line at 59th Street or 14th Streets, and Lexington Avenue trains at Broadway-Lafayette.

 

Broadway Line:

 

The N and R trains would make local stops on the Broadway Line overnight, and connect with the
(A)
at Jay St, and 34th Streets, and with the
(E)
at 34th Street, and in Queens. Both trains also connect with the Seventh Avenue Line at 42nd Street, South Ferry, and Atlantic Avenue
Edited by Harry

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I like most (the majority) of the alternatives that were listed, and the alternatives that were posted seem easy enough to follow without a huge amount of "hassle" to connect the various segments that would be closed.

 

I do however have some nits to pick:

 

a) There were a few suggestions that the Broadway-Lafayette Street station be used for transfers between the Lexington Avenue line and the IND lines. The basic problem with this particular suggestion is that any travel directions given that uses this transfer can not be made for BOTH directions.

 

For example in one of the suggestions - that Seventh Avenue line users use the D train as the alternative with a transfer at Broadway-Lafayette Street. Yes a rider from 23rd Street (where in the example given the D-train is local) can take the D-train to Broadway-Lafayette for a transfer to the #6, and then a transfer to #4 or #5 trains to/from Brooklyn. This works - no problem. However a rider from Grand Army Plaza traveling to West 23rd Street can not take the same route - the uptown #6 does not have a transfer to the Broadway-Lafayette station just yet - they are still building the transfer. This is not to say that such a travel plan is impossible - it just might mean that such a rider will have more walking to do. Most likely a transfer at Fulton Street in Manhattan between the #4 and #5 lines to/from the A and C lines would be a better travel advisory.

 

B) This one is not actually a nit-pick, but an assumption. I believe that if the MTA is saying that the IRT Seventh Avenue line is going to be closed from 34th Street to Atlantic Avenue, that they also mean the South Ferry section - since the idea is to close ALL of the subway trancks and to work on them. This could be an assumption on my part, and I am aware of what they say about assumptions.

 

When the westside IRT lines are shut down, getting to South Ferry is simply not that easy from the Christopher Street area. Suggestions that riders use the R train (or N-train after midnight) simply do not work until the rider is north of 42nd Street. The only suggestion is to use the A, or C trains with a transfer at Fulton Street for the #4 or #5 trains to Bowling Green.

 

c) Since the closures only affect the mid-town area, after the midnght hours, the A-train is going to be all local anyway.

 

Mike

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First of all IMHO, these changes should only take place in the autumn and spring, with either shuttle buses, or extended late night bus substitutions. Weather can play a major part in such GOs.

 

Let's take a look at each of these shutdowns:

 

1. Lexington Avenue (4)(6) Shutdown between Grand Central and Atlantic Avenue

 

 

 

Alternatives:

 

 

 

7th Avenue
(3)
: All stops between New Lots Avenue and Borough Hall connecting to Manhattan. Supplemental service served by the local 2 train.

 

Transfer necessary to Broadway trains (N/Q/R) especially if traveling between Brooklyn and Lower Manhattan. Transfer necessary to the Flushing
(7)
train to transfer in Manhattan between 7th and Lexington lines.

 

 

 

Broadway (N/Q): Connects with Brooklyn trains at Atlantic Avenue, and Lexington Avenue trains at 59th Street. Supplemental service served by the
(R)
train running overnight and making local stops. Below 14th Street, the Broadway line parallels the Lexington Avenue line.

 

 

 

6th Avenue
(D)
: Connects with 4 at Atlantic Avenue and 161st Street. Should be promoted for certain passengers.

 

 

 

Shuttle Bus: Between 59th Street and 14th Street. Provides Midtown East riders connection to the Lexington Avenue line at 59th or 42nd Streets, and Broadway line N and R trains at 14th Street.

 

 

 

M1: A full length M1 bus running overnight may give Manhattan residents a one seat ride avoiding all of this mess during this time.

 

 

Note: You can transfer to the N/R from the 1/2/3 at Times Square if you wish to transfer to the 4/5/6 at 59th in addition to doing that using the (7) to the 4/5/6 at Grand Central, assuming Grand Central is the terminal.

 

This pretty much is how I would do it.

 

2. 7th Avenue line shutdown between 34th Street and Atlantic Avenue.

 

 

 

If they are particularly working on the tracks between Chambers and Atlantic Avenue, the
(2)
can run to South Ferry, and the
(3)
can run normal. The alternatives are easiest for this shutdown even if
(1)
service is affected.

 

 

 

Alternatives:

 

 

 

Lexington Avenue Line: The 4 and 5 trains would run in Brooklyn to New Lots and Flatbush Avenues in Brooklyn making all local stops. Would require a connection to the lines listed below or transfer at 42nd Street for the 7 or shuttle trains to connect to the 2 and 3 trains or stop at nearby stations.

 

 

 

Also what should be considered at this time is a northern terminal switch for the 2 and 5 trains (5 to 241 Street, 2 to Dyre), allowing through service for passengers traveling between the Bronx and Brooklyn.

 

 

 

Broadway Line:

 

 

 

The Q train would provide quick connection between Times Square and Atlantic Avenue for
(4)(5)
service to New Lots and Flatbush.

 

 

 

Sixth Avenue Line:

 

 

 

Between 34th Street and West 4th Streets, D train making local stops, can help people below 42nd Street get a train going to Brooklyn for connection with the
(4)(5)
train. The D would connect with the Seventh Avenue line at 59th Street and 14th Street. The D would connect with Lexington Avenue Service at Broadway-Lafayette and Atlantic Avenue.

 

 

 

Eighth Avenue Line:

 

 

 

The A would run parallel to the 1/2 making all stops between 42nd Street and Chamber Streets, and connect with the Lexington Avenue line at Fulton Street. During this time a night shuttle making local stops between 145th Street and West 4th Street, then via 6th Avenue to Pacific Street if trackwork requires 1 trains to be shutdown would be helpful.

 

 

Again, pretty much on target with what I would do.

 

3. Eighth Avenue Line Shutdown between 59th Street and Jay Street.

 

Most likely this would mean re-routing all A and E trains down 6th Avenue. Alternatives are for those not wishing to walk the extra two blocks.

 

 

 

Alternatives:

 

 

 

7th Avenue:

 

 

 

The 2 and 3 (extended to South Ferry) trains would provide local service for nearby A stops between Chambers Streets and 59th Streets. Transfer available to Sixth Avenue trains directly at 14th Street for E/F trains. Transfer to the Flushing Line at 42nd Street for service to Queens.

 

 

 

Sixth Avenue:

 

 

 

The A would run via 6th Avenue or the E would be extended down Fulton Street to Far Rockaway.

 

 

 

Connection to 7th Avenue line at 59th Street or 14th Streets, and Lexington Avenue trains at Broadway-Lafayette.

 

 

 

Broadway Line:

 

 

 

The N and R trains would make local stops on the Broadway Line overnight, and connect with the
(A)
at Jay St, and 34th Streets, and with the
(E)
at 34th Street, and in Queens. Both trains also connect with the Seventh Avenue Line at 42nd Street, South Ferry, and Atlantic Avenue

 

 

Here is where I would make some changes:

 

1. There would be NO (E) service during this time, with the terminal platform at Chambers Street closed. (A) service would be re-routed as noted above.

 

2. The (M) train would be extended to all-night service, running its regular route to 71st-Continental and then extended to Jamaica Center, replacing the (E) along that portion of the route. The (R) would also run all night, with select trains also running to Jamaica Center and others terminating at 71-Continental.

 

Overall, some well thought out stuff here. :cool:

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Didnt they already start this?

 

The (MTA) has been doing for a month already on the (2) line between, Nevins St & Chambers St.

 

That part of the line was shut down for month long of nights. was this the pilot? if not, why does it say it will start in 2012?

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Guest lance25

It will be a much larger and extensive shutdown for four nights instead of several weeks of and on. The Clark Street shutdown over the past few months has only knocked out 7th Avenue service between Chambers St and Nevins St ((4) and (5) trains picked up the slack in Brooklyn). During the 7th Avenue portion of the pilot, instead of just closing the Brooklyn branch, the entirety of the line will be shut down from 34 St-Penn Station through Atlantic Av (with the (4) and (5) presumably running the same service they have late nights since early October). There won't be any (2)s to South Ferry like before and the (1) will be truncated. That means there won't be any 7th Avenue service south of Penn Station on either the mainline or the Brooklyn branch.

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i think its a good idea but i think it might turn out to be a cluster fcuk.......i work on the broadway line and i do not want to be sent over to do maintaince on an IRT line or in BKLYN somewhere !

 

 

thanks to the Inspector General there are certain guidlines on how many signals or switches we can do an hr or a night......they should also tweek the flagging this way you dont need 10 guys flagging on 2 tracks with 1-2 guys are doin the work.

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It will be a much larger and extensive shutdown for four nights instead of several weeks of and on. The Clark Street shutdown over the past few months has only knocked out 7th Avenue service between Chambers St and Nevins St ((4) and (5) trains picked up the slack in Brooklyn). During the 7th Avenue portion of the pilot, instead of just closing the Brooklyn branch, the entirety of the line will be shut down from 34 St-Penn Station through Atlantic Av (with the (4) and (5) presumably running the same service they have late nights since early October). There won't be any (2)s to South Ferry like before and the (1) will be truncated. That means there won't be any 7th Avenue service south of Penn Station on either the mainline or the Brooklyn branch.

 

Oh, ok, Thanks!

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