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6 Lexington Ave

FASTRACK Subway Repair Discussion

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I was told the FASTRACK for the 8Av segment is in March, from 59th-CC to Jay.

 

And there, the (A) can simply go with the (D) and then (F) down 6th Avenue and the Rutgers tunnel to Jay Street while the (E) can run via 6th Avenue to 2nd Avenue, so that isn't an issue, plus with a transfer to the (1)/ (2) at 59th-CC and most of the other transfers that you would normally have from the (A) anyway (including the (2) at 14th/7th from the 14th/6th (F) station), you likely won't have too much confusion like you did with this round of transfers, especially with the (1) and (2) covering most of the (A) in Manhattan below 59th and (N)/® covering Metrotech.

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Only station that's a bit out the way is High St, and although York isn't that far, it's kind a cumbersome getting on the other side of the bridge supports. So far, we are unsure if they will decide to end the (cool.png and © early, or just wait until the last one goes by, as the headways are fairly high around 10. And remember, the (M) is still running at that hour with the (F). I do feel for those coming in from PABT, though. Have to slug their luggage through that famous underground passage.

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Only station that's a bit out the way is High St, and although York isn't that far, it's kind a cumbersome getting on the other side of the bridge supports. So far, we are unsure if they will decide to end the (cool.png and © early, or just wait until the last one goes by, as the headways are fairly high around 10. And remember, the (M) is still running at that hour with the (F). I do feel for those coming in from PABT, though. Have to slug their luggage through that famous underground passage.

 

Port Authority can definitely be a pain without the (A) and (E) stopping there and having to go to at least Broadway-7th Avenue (even if it's all underground) for the (1)/ (2)/ (3)/ (7)/ (S)/ (N)/ (Q)/® or even 6th Avenue to get the (A)/©/ (E) or (cool.png/ (D)/ (F) or (M). Not easy when you're handling heavy luggage, though the rolling luggage of today does make that considerably easier than it once was.

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And there, the (A) can simply go with the (D) and then (F) down 6th Avenue and the Rutgers tunnel to Jay Street while the (E) can run via 6th Avenue to 2nd Avenue, so that isn't an issue, plus with a transfer to the (1)/ (2) at 59th-CC and most of the other transfers that you would normally have from the (A) anyway (including the (2) at 14th/7th from the 14th/6th (F) station), you likely won't have too much confusion like you did with this round of transfers, especially with the (1) and (2) covering most of the (A) in Manhattan below 59th and (N)/® covering Metrotech.

 

How do you all think they will handle the switching of the (A)?

 

In order for the A to use the Rutgers tunnel it has to switch to the local tracks south of 34th street or just north of W4th st. Maybe since it runs local over night anyway it will switch south of 34th. They will then have 3 locals though, (A)(E)(F), I guess with the overnight headways it should be fine.

They may have to cut the (M) to Forest Hills early because it may get too crowded on 6th ave.

Edited by Harry

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They might also just have to deal with a logjam of five different lines operating on the local track between West 4th and Broadway Lafayette ( (A)/©/ (E)/ (F)/ (M)) for the two hours or so (in some cases less than that) that some of those lines are running (The (A) and © in this scenario would run express from 34th-West 4th and the (cool.png would likely end early to accommodate this). It's not like this would be the case all night, it would only be at the start of the shutdown between 59th-CC and Jay Street-Metrotech.

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They might also just have to deal with a logjam of five different lines operating on the local track between West 4th and Broadway Lafayette ( (A)/©/ (E)/ (F)/ (M)) for the two hours or so (in some cases less than that) that some of those lines are running (The (A) and © in this scenario would run express from 34th-West 4th and the (cool.png would likely end early to accommodate this). It's not like this would be the case all night, it would only be at the start of the shutdown between 59th-CC and Jay Street-Metrotech.

 

Errrr... there's absolutely no way they could "just deal" with having five lines on the local tracks. I would imagine the (cool.png © and (M) would all end early to make this work.

 

Even then, even at late night headways, I question the ability to squeeze the (A)(E) and (F) onto the same pair of tracks. Certainly not impossible, but fairly difficult.

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Errrr... there's absolutely no way they could "just deal" with having five lines on the local tracks. I would imagine the (cool.png © and (M) would all end early to make this work.

 

Even then, even at late night headways, I question the ability to squeeze the (A)(E) and (F) onto the same pair of tracks. Certainly not impossible, but fairly difficult.

 

At late night headways, the (A)(E)(F) together is 9 tph. That's nothing.

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At late night headways, the (A)(E)(F) together is 9 tph. That's nothing.

 

Fair enough, and unfortunately I realized how small a number that was after I posted.

 

However, keep in mind that just because you have 3 trains each running every 20 minutes doesn't necessarily mean you'll have them evenly spaced every 6-7 minutes. In theory, you could have an (A) arrive at Herald Square at 1:11, an (E) arrive at 1:12, an (F) at 1:13, and an (A) at 1:31, etc.

 

Obviously it wouldn't be that bad in actuality, but still, merging 3 lines onto a single track will be a grand adventure. (Nothing compared to 5 though... wink.pngtongue.png)

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If it's been mentioned or already online somewhere, I apologize in advance:

 

What parts of the 8th av and 6th av lines will be shut down? Will 4th st still be open for switching or will they all have to run the full route? ie: (F) having to go down toward Chambers via (A) and switch back at Jay st.

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Guest lance25

And Sixth Avenue will be closed from 59 St-Columbus Circle to W 4 St. It hasn't been made clear whether that means there will be some sort of shuttle in place for the 63rd Street stations or if those will be closed as well.

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At 10PM frequencies:

(A) 7.5 tph

© 5

(E) 6

(F) 6

(M) 6

 

So the math is that it ends up being 30.5 tph. Not bad. It could work for one stop.

 

So I take it you didn't read my last post then?

 

The fact that it's only for one stop is exactly why it wouldn't work. (Well, that and the fact that it's just clinically insane.) 30 trains an hour is a train every 2 minutes (if the trains are evenly spaced, which they're not, especially if you're talking about five different lines now). 120 seconds isn't nearly enough time between trains if you have to move the switches between every train.

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So I take it you didn't read my last post then?

 

The fact that it's only for one stop is exactly why it wouldn't work. (Well, that and the fact that it's just clinically insane.) 30 trains an hour is a train every 2 minutes (if the trains are evenly spaced, which they're not, especially if you're talking about five different lines now). 120 seconds isn't nearly enough time between trains if you have to move the switches between every train.

 

Yes, I read your previous post. If they're not evenly spaced, a train will have to wait at W4 Street. It's not like trains can't stop.

 

And if trains can run at 30 tph ( (4)(5)), they most likely can run at 30.5. And with the switches issue, it somehow works at Rogers Junction and in the Bronx!

 

If even that is not possible, only one line needs to end service early, like the (M) for example. The © can keep running until whenever.

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Yes, I read your previous post. If they're not evenly spaced, a train will have to wait at W4 Street. It's not like trains can't stop.

 

And if trains can run at 30 tph ( (4)(5)), they most likely can run at 30.5. And with the switches issue, it somehow works at Rogers Junction and in the Bronx!

 

If even that is not possible, only one line needs to end service early, like the (M) for example. The © can keep running until whenever.

 

Except it doesn't work at Rogers Junction, that's why there are massive delays. It's a necessary evil at Rogers Junction in order to get people where they need to go during peak hours. Here, there's a simple solution... cut the tph by a third because you don't need 30 tph going through there at 10PM, and everyone still gets where they need to go on a much smoother moving system.

 

The people in Brooklyn who have to sit on a local train two hours earlier than they normally would will just have to deal with it the same way the people on 8th Avenue who have to walk an extra block or two do. That's the way G.O.'s work.

 

And the reason it works on the (4)(5) (or the (E)(F) along QBL) is because the switches between those lines are miles apart. So they can merge together at 149th (or in Jamaica), "unbunch" if necessary over the course of their run together, and then split apart at the other end by which time they'll be properly separated with enough time to operate the switches. Trying to merge/split lines on either end of a single station is an entirely different animal, and would be an unmitigated disaster.

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At 10PM frequencies:

(A) 7.5 tph

(C) 5

(E) 6

(F) 6

(M) 6

 

So the math is that it ends up being 30.5 tph. Not bad. It could work for one stop.

 

And also for most likely a maximum of 90 minutes, and those frequencies will drop rather quickly once you get to 11:00 PM I believe.

 

It's not like this would be the case at all times or even all night.

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And also for most likely a maximum of 90 minutes, and those frequencies will drop rather quickly once you get to 11:00 PM I believe.

 

It's not like this would be the case at all times or even all night.

 

I freely admit that I could be totally wrong and totally underestimating the capabilities of the subway system. I'm not an engineer, and the last time I lived in the Tri-State Area was 2004. I could easily count the number of times I've ridden the subway since then on my fingers.

 

But even if it's possible, it would still be extremely difficult, and I don't see the point of suddenly turning that section of 6th Avenue into the busiest line in the system, when it would be so much easier to simply end a couple of lines 1-2 hours earlier.

 

Besides, I think there's precedent for this. Whenever there's construction on the (A) or (F), IIRC, they've always cancelled the © rather than trying to squeeze the (A)© (F) onto the same pair of tracks. (There have been times recently when the C went to 2nd Avenue, but that was when there was only construction on the Culver and the F went to Euclid. I don't think all 3 were ever on the same tracks.)

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Not always. There were plenty of times last year when both the (A) and © were re-routed to the (F) between Jay and West 4th, or the (F) was re-routed to the (A) and the © still went to Brooklyn.

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At 10PM frequencies:

(A) 7.5 tph

© 5

(E) 6

(F) 6

(M) 6

 

So the math is that it ends up being 30.5 tph. Not bad. It could work for one stop.

The last time I took a statistics and probability class was a year ago (and I've forgotten nearly everything), so I'm not going to go into detail, but:

  1. Trains have a schedule, but there are many many random factors that cause trains to deviate from the arrival and departure time including the train conductor and operators themselves. It's safe to say that the intervals between trains will be random and with a high variation since West 4 Street is pretty much many stations away from any terminal along the lines that serve it except for the (E).

  2. If trains arrived and departed instantaneously, #1 would not cause any problems. However, when a train arrives to make a stop at any station, it will always occupy the station for a certain amount of time greater than the time it would take to simply bypass the station. I would put the average dwell time at 1 minute.

  3. At around 30 trains per hour, that leaves a gap of 1 minute between trains ideally. And given that trains never arrive on-the-dot…

 

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1. The switches north of West 4 from 3-1 tks are not commonly used because of the wheel detectors. All switching will probably be done at 34-6 (between 42-34). As with the (4)(5)(6), the last train wouldn't have left the area by 10pm sharp, it was more like 1030.

 

2. Overall train frequency really doesn't matter, what matters more is the the amount of trains that have to be diverted and where they will be once the diversions begin. With that said...

 

2a. S/B © - 2 or 3 trains. Based on the IRT Lex, the idea is to start diverting after 10, allowing those trains in the zone after 10 to complete their trip through. Taking the last two trains off, the track will be clear of © service by 2230, and therefore will probably not end early.

 

2b. N/B © - 4 trains. The track will clear of © by 2230.

 

3. There are 7 (M) trains that still have to go thru 6Av in both directions after 10 (for those who will fact check me, the first one n/b will get ahead of the first diverted 8Av train so it doesn't count).

 

Things will be tight the first half an hour with those last couple of ©'s that got to go through. The 53rd St corridor is roughly on 5-6 min headway in the 10pm hour. Add in the 10min headway on the (F) at that hour and the last couple of (B)'s that gotta go through, and things will still be fine. The problem comes when the (A) service is added in, as its still quite frequent until 11. Switching issues at 2Av for the (E) will be a pain as well. However, all this is nothing a well written suppliment cant solve that will adjust the leaving times.

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The MTA released the plan for the (1)(2)(3) FASTRACK:

 

NYCT - Service Advisory

 

(1) Turns at 34th

(2) Turns at 34th, runs to Dyre (5)

(3) Suspended

(4) Extended to New Lots

(5) Extended to Flatbush; runs to Wakefield (2); local in Brooklyn (what about Manhattan?)

Shuttle Bus 148-135

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Guest lance25

That depends on whether the (6) is running in Manhattan. If they turn the (6) at 125 St, then the (5) will run local in Manhattan. If not, it's running express.

 

By the way, I see they're doing that (2)/ (5) flip-flop again.

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