Official FASTRACK Subway Repair Discussion

[Wallyhorse]

Just an idea, maybe have the run via 6 Ave local instead of express.

 

I know that would be an additional switching move at W4, but now that it goes to 96th st instead of turning around at 57/6 more people would benefit from not having to wait up to 20 minutes for the at the local stops only to have to transfer to the and wait possibly another 20 minutes.

That I agree with, especially since 14th is transfer point from the to the 6th Avenue line.

 

Having the run that way would work.

 

The doesn't run at nights. Just off of that, you'll confuse people

True, but I was thinking in terms of the fact the would be running mostly on its normal route whereas the would not be, even if the normally doesn't run late nights.  Some people on 6th Avenue would be more adept to get on a than a even if its running outside of normal hours.  

[S78 via Hylan]

Just an idea, maybe have the run via 6 Ave local instead of express.

 

I know that would be an additional switching move at W4, but now that it goes to 96th st instead of turning around at 57/6 more people would benefit from not having to wait up to 20 minutes for the at the local stops only to have to transfer to the and wait possibly another 20 minutes.

I don't see a need for that if it's only two local stops.

[Jemorie]

I don't see a need for that if it's only two local stops.

 

i don't see why not, sure it's only two local stops but the will still remain on the same local tracks with the till just north of West 4th where the switches are available. having it run express will just make it miss the transfer at 14th.

[2 Train Master]

True, but I was thinking in terms of the fact the would be running mostly on its normal route whereas the would not be, even if the normally doesn't run late nights.  Some people on 6th Avenue would be more adept to get on a than a even if its running outside of normal hours.  

That's why the NTT's have several programs for various re-routes, if not the old fashioned way will be done. Even with the NTT's and the correct re-routed announcements people are still confused(hence empty trains running down a line that is not its mainline).

[Lance]

True, but I was thinking in terms of the fact the would be running mostly on its normal route whereas the would not be, even if the normally doesn't run late nights.  Some people on 6th Avenue would be more adept to get on a than a even if its running outside of normal hours.  

Thing is, even with the running via 6th Avenue during that FASTRACK, the line still retains its normal termini. Riders are less likely to get confused by a running on 6th Avenue than by, say, running a train run a completely different route. Let's see what you would have to convey to riders for each idea:

 

via 6th Avenue

 - no service along Broadway between Lexington Av-63 St and DeKalb Av

 

to 96 Street

 - service operates overnight

 - service runs local on the Brighton line

 - service runs to 96 Street via the line

 

Which one looks easier to tell to the average rider?

[RailRunRob]

Thing is, even with the running via 6th Avenue during that FASTRACK, the line still retains its normal termini. Riders are less likely to get confused by a running on 6th Avenue than by, say, running a train run a completely different route. Let's see what you would have to convey to riders for each idea:

 

via 6th Avenue

 - no service along Broadway between Lexington Av-63 St and DeKalb Av

 

to 96 Street

 - service operates overnight

 - service runs local on the Brighton line

 - service runs to 96 Street via the line

 

Which one looks easier to tell to the average rider?

He's got a point!

[Wallyhorse]

It works both ways:

I was thinking of riders on 6th Avenue who are not used to seeing trains.  Most in Brooklyn know the sometimes for varying reasons runs local.

[bobtehpanda]

It works both ways:

 

I was thinking of riders on 6th Avenue who are not used to seeing trains.  Most in Brooklyn know the sometimes for varying reasons runs local.

 

Even so, what Lance said still holds. Seeing a train run on a different trunk is not abnormal; how many times do the and switch it up, or the and ?

 

An overnight service is literally unprecedented, and there's no reason to establish expectations for one like that, especially since many riders on 6th Avenue are looking for CPW.

Edited January 16, 2017 by bobtehpanda

[CenSin]

It works both ways:

 

I was thinking of riders on 6th Avenue who are not used to seeing trains.  Most in Brooklyn know the sometimes for varying reasons runs local.

Except one way has less disadvantages. A route that runs from Coney Island to the Upper East Side has more in common with the than the .

 

 

 

via 6th Avenue

- no service along Broadway between Lexington Av-63 St and DeKalb Av

 

to 96 Street

- service operates overnight

- service runs local on the Brighton line

- service runs to 96 Street via the line

 

Which one looks easier to tell to the average rider?

It’s a pretty scientific way to decide what’s the right choice.

 

I’ll also add some details, changing it to:

• trains are diverted via 6 Avenue local ( routes) between Lexington Avenue/63 Street and DeKalb Avenue. Closed Broadway stations will be served by nearby 6 Avenue stations at 57 Street (57 Street–7 Avenue), 47-50 Streets–Rockefeller Center (49 Street), 42 Street–Bryant Park (Times Square–42 Street), Broadway–Lafayette Street (Prince Street), and Grand Street (Canal Street). Transfer to/from the at 14 Street for 14 Street–Union Square. Transfer to the or at Broadway–Lafayette Street for nearby stops at 23 Street (23 Street), 14 Street–Union Square, Astor Place (8 Street–NYU), and Canal Street.

• The will not be running in Manhattan or Brooklyn.
• trains run overnight making local stops at 14 Street and 23 Street and are rerouted to 2 Avenue, replacing the at 96 Street, 86 Street, 72 Street, and Lexington Avenue/63 Street.
• Closed Broadway stations will be served by nearby stops along 6 Avenue at 57 Street (57 Street–7 Avenue), 47-50 Streets–Rockefeller Center (49 Street), 42 Street–Bryant Park (Times Square–42 Street), Broadway–Lafayette Street (Prince Street), and Grand Street (Canal Street). Transfer to/from the at 14 Street for 14 Street–Union Square. Transfer to the or at Broadway–Lafayette Street for nearby stops at 23 Street (23 Street), 14 Street–Union Square, Astor Place (8 Street–NYU), and Canal Street.
• In Brooklyn, the makes all local stops from DeKalb Avenue to Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue.

It’s numerically quantifiable that the via 6 Avenue option wins out. There are less words and less number of exceptions to explain.

[GreatOne2k]

Even so, what Lance said still holds. Seeing a train run on a different trunk is not abnormal; how many times do the and switch it up, or the and ?

 

An overnight service is literally unprecedented, and there's no reason to establish expectations for one like that, especially since many riders on 6th Avenue are looking for CPW.

The has ran overnight before, last time in 2001.

[Caelestor]

The has ran overnight before, last time in 2001.

 

Back then, the ran 24/7 on the West End Line when it operated via the Manhattan Bridge. Its route in Brooklyn was swapped with the on Brighton to combine two part-time routes.

 

There's no reason for the to operate when the has already run via 6 Ave back in the 90s, albeit as an orange bullet.

[N6 Limited]

Even so, what Lance said still holds. Seeing a train run on a different trunk is not abnormal; how many times do the and switch it up, or the and ?

 

I think in those cases it is different as they share tracks at certain point(s) and get re-routed along each other's routes often when service disruptions happen.

[bobtehpanda]

I think in those cases it is different as they share tracks at certain point(s) and get re-routed along each other's routes often when service disruptions happen.

 

I mean, the and share their entire Brooklyn route. But resigning one is much less disruptive than the other.

[N6 Limited]

I mean, the and share their entire Brooklyn route. But resigning one is much less disruptive than the other.

That's true. They could say is not running, use instead?

[CenSin]

That's true. They could say is not running, use instead?

People know the as the 145 Street/Brighton Beach route via Central Park West local, 6 Avenue express, Brighton express. Tell someone to “use the instead” and you have to explain all the exceptions to what they are familiar with. Even to a rail fan who has all the requisite knowledge to understand a minimal utterance, one has to at least mention that the is being recasted as the 96 Street/Coney Island route via 6 Avenue local, Brighton local. …which is more to say than simply via 6 Avenue local.

Edited January 19, 2017 by CenSin

[bobtehpanda]

That's true. They could say is not running, use instead?

 

The difference is that for the , only the middle section is changing. For the , you're changing the entire northern section of the route, so you have to somehow explain to CPW riders that yes, the B is running, yes, it's night time, no, it's not going to CPW, it's going to the other side of Manhattan.

[Lance]

I realize, or I should say I've long-since realized, that a lot of you don't really understand this KISS approach. In transit and a lot of other areas that deal with customer service, the main approach to anything is to Keep It Simple Stupid. While we, as rail and subway enthusiasts, would readily understand that the is running as a replacement for the in Brooklyn and north of 57 Street, the vast majority of riders, who rarely travel outside of their normal routes, and in most cases don't care to, won't know what's going on with the trains. They'll see trains, wonder why the line is operating in the middle of the night, and believe the train is going to Central Park West because that's what it says on the map. By having the operate as normal, even if it is running up 6th Avenue, it reduces the level of confusion in an already confusing reroute. I know it's hard to believe in some cases, but sometimes, the simplest approach is the best one.

[Daniel The Cool]

  Trains are rerouted in Manhattan
No service at 57 St, 47-50 Sts, 42 St-Bryant Pk, 34 St-Herald Sq, 23 St and 14 St

Late Nights, 10 PM to 5 AM, Mon to Fri, Feb 6 - 10  •  Feb 13 - 17

  service ends early. Please see separate advisories for travel information.

 Trains run via the  in both directions between Roosevelt Av and W 4 St.
 shuttle train operates every 20 minutes between 63 St/Lexington Av and 21 St-Queensbridge, 
      stopping at Roosevelt Island.

 Service operates in two sections:
     1. Between 205 St and B'way-Lafayette St, and via the  to/from 2 Av.
         Trains run local via the  between 145 St and W 4 St.
     2. Between Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr and Stillwell Av.
         Trains run express in both directions between Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr and 36 St 

 Free shuttle buses operate between 21 St-Queensbridge and Queens Plaza.

[Amtrak7]

They should be able to get a whole lot of work done, there's full weekend outages between and after the two night 6 Av shutdowns 

[MysteriousBtrain]

Trains are rerouted in Manhattan

No service at 57 St, 47-50 Sts, 42 St-Bryant Pk, 34 St-Herald Sq, 23 St and 14 St

Late Nights, 10 PM to 5 AM, Mon to Fri, Feb 6 - 10 • Feb 13 - 17

 

service ends early. Please see separate advisories for travel information.

 

Trains run via the in both directions between Roosevelt Av and W 4 St.

shuttle train operates every 20 minutes between 63 St/Lexington Av and 21 St-Queensbridge,

stopping at Roosevelt Island.

 

Service operates in two sections:

1. Between 205 St and B'way-Lafayette St, and via the to/from 2 Av.

Trains run local via the between 145 St and W 4 St.

2. Between Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr and Stillwell Av.

Trains run express in both directions between Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr and 36 St

 

Free shuttle buses operate between 21 St-Queensbridge and Queens Plaza.

Since the can't be on the IND line anymore, could it be possible to send the on the line to 34 St? The is already duplicating the between Briarwood and W 4 St. For overnight service, both the and are overkill. Hopefully the reroute could be looked at eventually.

 

Just a recap:

between Jamaica Ctr and 34 St-Herald Sq via the and making all stops

Edited January 22, 2017 by ShadeJay

[Daniel The Cool]

Since the can't be on the IND line anymore, could it be possible to send the on the line to 34 St? The is already duplicating the between Briarwood and W 4 St. For overnight service, both the and are overkill. Hopefully the reroute could be looked at eventually.

 

Just a recap:

between Jamaica Ctr and 34 St-Herald Sq via the and making all stops

No because you're going to have run on the local tracks for about an hour which will cause congestion. And its not really overkill because this happened many times in the past and trains run every 20 minutes during the overnight so in a way it dwells less wait time.

 

And also the is running express all night during the Fastrack.

[Q43LTD]

Didn't the run via the between W 4 and Jay?

[Lance]

That's a different Fastrack.

[Mysterious2train]

 

  Trains are rerouted in Manhattan

No service at 57 St, 47-50 Sts, 42 St-Bryant Pk, 34 St-Herald Sq, 23 St and 14 St

Late Nights, 10 PM to 5 AM, Mon to Fri, Feb 6 - 10  •  Feb 13 - 17

 

  service ends early. Please see separate advisories for travel information.

 

 Trains run via the  in both directions between Roosevelt Av and W 4 St.

 shuttle train operates every 20 minutes between 63 St/Lexington Av and 21 St-Queensbridge, 

      stopping at Roosevelt Island.

 

 Service operates in two sections:

     1. Between 205 St and B'way-Lafayette St, and via the  to/from 2 Av.

         Trains run local via the  between 145 St and W 4 St.

     2. Between Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr and Stillwell Av.

         Trains run express in both directions between Atlantic Av-Barclays Ctr and 36 St 

 

 Free shuttle buses operate between 21 St-Queensbridge and Queens Plaza.

 

 

 

I like how the service advisory mentions the in some places but not in others. Also how the is not mentioned at Lex Av-63 St in the "Key Transfer Stations" box. Typical MTA I guess. 

 

Anybody notice how they seem to have stopped uploading Fastrack maps online?

[Q43LTD]

That's a different Fastrack.

No, I recall the running via 8 Av from Roosevelt to Jay St during the 6 Av fastrack. Since the ends at Whitehall overnights, the can't turn there anymore