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Micstromme

Z needs to merge with the J for the sake of face

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Finally!! I have finally found my way here and, as I promised somewhere else, I will provide my proposal to get rid of the (Z) and just merge it with the (J) in more service.

 

The (Z) is a supplemental service for the Nassau Street Line. The (J) is the (Z) during most of the times ,as the Z is only on during the rush hours. If someone out there is thinking, then they would simply use their common sense to melt the (Z) into the (J), (M), and possibly even the (L) line.

 

Comment if you don't mind.

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I think its a great idea! I'm not an everyday rider for the (J) or the (Z), but I can tell that weekend service is packed. Plus, I'm not sure many riders ride the (Z) and it must suck that you have to wait for a (J) when a (Z) comes by.

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The J and Z receive equal passenger ridership because the stations on the line all have similar ridership levels. However there is one positive side to having J and Z service. You get 5 minute headways from the combined service instead of waiting just under 10 minutes, as opposed to waiting 10 minutes. Adding say, 1 or two trains per hour doesn't bring 10 minute headways down to 5.

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I think the (Z) should stay just because it's an express route, and it relieves pressure off the (J). Even though I hardly ever ride it because it passes my stop, it keeps the (J) less crowded. So In a way sure you could merge them because it's just an express (J), but having a different letter keeps confusion down.

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I think the (Z) should stay just because it's an express route, and it relieves pressure off the (J). Even though I hardly ever ride it because it passes my stop, it keeps the (J) less crowded. So In a way sure you could merge them because it's just an express (J), but having a different letter keeps confusion down.

 

Actually it doesn't.

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Actually with skip-stop your ride should theoretically be faster. I mean you're SKIPping stops, which means stopping at fewer stations, which theoretically saves time. And since there are so many skipped stops on both the (J) and (Z) you're saving time. Besides combining both into a single (J) increases crowding on that train since all the ridership from the (Z) comes onto the (J). Even if it's only six trains.

 

About different letters reducing confusion... it probably does. It's probably never gonna happen, but the R62/As have an (11) sign to replace the <7>, and it would really help those who want an express train on the Flushing line. Instead of asking express or local people could just tell that the (7) is local and the (11) is express. Same with the (J) and (Z). If you're at a (J) stop and a "(J)" comes along, wouldn't you be surprised if it skipped your stop but the next "(J)" stops (assuming that skip-stop is continued, as you just said that they would merge, Micstromme, not that they would cancel skip-stop)?

 

And how would the (Z) merge into the (L)? Those lines are completely disconnected.

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Actually with skip-stop your ride should theoretically be faster. I mean you're SKIPping stops, which means stopping at fewer stations, which theoretically saves time. And since there are so many skipped stops on both the (J) and (Z) you're saving time. Besides combining both into a single (J) increases crowding on that train since all the ridership from the (Z) comes onto the (J). Even if it's only six trains.

 

About different letters reducing confusion... it probably does. It's probably never gonna happen, but the R62/As have an (11) sign to replace the <7>, and it would really help those who want an express train on the Flushing line. Instead of asking express or local people could just tell that the (7) is local and the (11) is express. Same with the (J) and (Z). If you're at a (J) stop and a "(J)" comes along, wouldn't you be surprised if it skipped your stop but the next "(J)" stops (assuming that skip-stop is continued, as you just said that they would merge, Micstromme, not that they would cancel skip-stop)?

 

And how would the (Z) merge into the (L)? Those lines are completely disconnected.

 

Broadway Junction...you forgot about that.

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Broadway Junction...you forgot about that.

 

OK then... the fact that I'm not from Brooklyn shows! But in terms of service, how would this work out?

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Isn't Broadway Junction a non-revenue move? Does it go into the yard? I'm too lazy to look at a track map.

 

No, but you can't get to Canarsie from Jamaica without reversing, if I remember. You can only get to Broadway Junction and west of there.

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No, but you can't get to Canarsie from Jamaica without reversing, if I remember. You can only get to Broadway Junction and west of there.

 

That's right.

 

Here's the track map from nycsubway.org, © Peter Dougherty.

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I would just have the (Z) designated as the <J>, rather than scrap it entirely.

 

The only problem with that is passengers would assume the (J) is local and the <J> is express. Therefore they will be surprised when the "local" (J) skips their stop by running skip stop. The different designation "(Z)" is to avoid confusion among passengers, particularly those who may not be familiar with the route or are given partial info when they ask for directions (ie during rush hour gets told "oh take the J to Chauncey St."

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I'd have the (J) run local all hours, and the <J> run skip-stop during rush hours in peak directions. People could call the <J> the "J-diamond", just like they call the <6> the "6-diamond."

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I'd have the (J) run local all hours, and the <J> run skip-stop during rush hours in peak directions. People could call the <J> the "J-diamond", just like they call the <6> the "6-diamond."

 

That wouldn't be possible. The Jamaica line is mostly two tracked until you reach the (M) at Myrtle. To have a (J) local and a <J> skip stop during rush hours would result in trains bunching up and longer waits.

 

It's much simpler to designate both lines as the (J) and (Z) for the same reason SubwayGuy stated. It reduces confusion. It's much the same as with the (1)(9) before that service was terminated. Besides, the diamond designation is reserved for express lines, not skip-stop. That's why we have the <6> and the <7>, because those are express lines. They skip stops, but they have a local running full time to service those stops. With the (J)(Z), not every station is served by one single route.

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I'd have the (J) run local all hours, and the <J> run skip-stop during rush hours in peak directions. People could call the <J> the "J-diamond", just like they call the <6> the "6-diamond."

 

I think you are confusing "skip stop" and express. "Skip stop" means the trains along the route alternate local station stops, not that the train runs express. As for the possibility of <J> Express service, it's not really possible given the track configurations. The reason skip stop is used instead is because if you try and run Express on the local with locals on the local (the way you'd have to with a two tracked line), you are going to have a lot of trains bunched up staring at red automatics waiting for the locals to get going. By doing skip stop, especially along a line that sees headways like the Jamaica El, you reduce the risk of delays due to that happening by a lot. And if it happens anyway? Hey, battery run time for the Late train...

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Clearly confusion and convenience is two things thatthe TA couldn't care less about. The idea to have both a (J) and a (Z) service when they both do the same thing makes almost no sense to me.

 

Consider the idea though that skip stop service should just disappear altogether to avoid simple problems such as bunching on (J) during rush hours and early peaks.

 

I'm sure someone will surely comment on this interesting debacle.

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From nycsubway.org:

 

"The rest of the Jamaica Avenue branch (Cypress Hills to 121 St) was built with provision for a third track which was never installed."

 

I could see, if the (MTA) somehow finds the money to do this, express service on the (J)/(Z) eliminating the skip stop (although letter names would probably still be retained).

 

Here's a pic from nycsubway.org showing the space between the tracks where there could be an express track.

 

Of course stations would need to be converted to express stations. The cost of that, plus installing the center track and the necessary wiring and such, and all the service changes necessary to do this would be a major pain, making this scenario unlikely. But besides that happening I can't see skip-stop being eliminated from the Jamaica line.

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I think you are confusing "skip stop" and express. "Skip stop" means the trains along the route alternate local station stops, not that the train runs express. As for the possibility of <J> Express service, it's not really possible given the track configurations. The reason skip stop is used instead is because if you try and run Express on the local with locals on the local (the way you'd have to with a two tracked line), you are going to have a lot of trains bunched up staring at red automatics waiting for the locals to get going. By doing skip stop, especially along a line that sees headways like the Jamaica El, you reduce the risk of delays due to that happening by a lot. And if it happens anyway? Hey, battery run time for the Late train...

 

I know the difference between skip-stop and express. However, I think they should both be designated by the same symbol, the diamond. I don't think a variation on an existing route, such as skip-stop (or express) is deserving of an entirely different number/letter.

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I know the difference between skip-stop and express. However, I think they should both be designated by the same symbol, the diamond. I don't think a variation on an existing route, such as skip-stop (or express) is deserving of an entirely different number/letter.

 

Just because you know doesn't mean everyone else does. People are so used to seeing diamonds as expresses that they will think it's an express instead of skip-stop.

 

Besides, (MTA) went through a "Diamond Elimination Program" that eliminated unnecessary diamond designations (i.e. they eliminated the rush hour diamonds; for example the (5) to 238 used to be the <5>) so I don't think this would go through.

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I worked the J and the Z and the skip stop service is the biggest joke on the planet. I would always get holding lights at Myrtle Avenue, basically killing those saved minutes. Plus people holding doors also takes that saved time away.

 

 

Actually with skip-stop your ride should theoretically be faster. I mean you're SKIPping stops, which means stopping at fewer stations, which theoretically saves time. And since there are so many skipped stops on both the (J) and (Z) you're saving time. Besides combining both into a single (J) increases crowding on that train since all the ridership from the (Z) comes onto the (J). Even if it's only six trains.

 

About different letters reducing confusion... it probably does. It's probably never gonna happen, but the R62/As have an (11) sign to replace the <7>, and it would really help those who want an express train on the Flushing line. Instead of asking express or local people could just tell that the (7) is local and the (11) is express. Same with the (J) and (Z). If you're at a (J) stop and a "(J)" comes along, wouldn't you be surprised if it skipped your stop but the next "(J)" stops (assuming that skip-stop is continued, as you just said that they would merge, Micstromme, not that they would cancel skip-stop)?

 

And how would the (Z) merge into the (L)? Those lines are completely disconnected.

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I actually thinks the (Z) it works very well when it does run,and it does see a decent amount of ridership, too bad that third track never got past Broadway Junction

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