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Rush hour (5) service Question

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Rush Hour (5) service is confusing...

1) Is Neried-238 St <5> Trains only peak direction or is it bi-directional during rush hour?

2) How many <5>s run to 238 St?

3) I've heard some <5>s run express on the upper WPR to Gun hill Road, but is it on purpose?

4) Do any (5) Dyre Av trains run local into Manhattan?

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Guest lance25

I'm not exactly sure for a couple of these, but...

 

1) peak direction (inbound AM rush, outbound PM)

2) few (dependent on the dispatchers and service requirement)

3) yes (also dependent on dispatchers and rail conditions)

4) not to my knowledge, except for emergency reroutes

 

For answers 2 & 3, despite being listed as running to Nereid Av via White Plains Road local north of E 180 St, some trains will run to Gun Hill Rd and/or run express between E 180 St and Gun Hill Rd. Some trains will terminate at E 180 St. This is in place to put the trains into the 239th Street Yard without getting in the way of the (2) trains. Also, there are plenty of (2)s running on the northern White Plains Road segment to meet demand.

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Replies in bold....

 

Rush Hour (5) service is confusing...

1) Is Neried-238 St <5> Trains only peak direction or is it bi-directional during rush hour?

 

(5) trains run peak only on the WPR Upper. (AM to Manhattan, PM from Manhattan)

 

2) How many <5>s run to 238 St?

 

Check the time tables. Should be like 5-10

 

3) I've heard some <5>s run express on the upper WPR to Gun hill Road, but is it on purpose?

 

Yes, seems like all Northbound <5> runs express from 180th to Gun hill and deadhead to 239th Yard, to prevent delays on the (2) when the (5) ends at 238th. This is due to Yard move. Dispatchers choice if he or she wants it express. I haven't seen a local <5> via Upper WPR for over a year. Looks like all of it is express. Southbound im pretty sure it local.

 

4) Do any (5) Dyre Av trains run local into Manhattan?

 

No, only during a General order that requires it.

 

 

Every now and again they will run a (5) into 241 itself for service

 

Yeah i did heard of 1 (5) Super express, stopping only at Mott, 3rd Ave, 180th, Gun Hill and 241st then to 239th Yard, but would like to see if anyone can confirm this.

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2) How many <5>s run to 238 St?

 

Check the time tables. Should be like 5-10

 

 

During the AM rush, <5> trains leave 238th Street between 06:21 and 08:17 every 8-11 minutes, so that would be around 11-15 trains in the AM rush hour.

 

During the PM rush, there are 12 trains to 238th Street (that arrive at 238th Street between 17:19 and 19:12).

 

Of course, as you said, the (2) train runs frequently enough that <5> trains can be pulled out of service at Gun Hill Road instead of 238th Street.

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Last Tuesday around 4:15PM while commuting home, I was a the Fulton Street stop and I just missed a NB 5 train with "Gun Hill Road" as it's destination.

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I'll explain this completely to end this discussion...

 

PM Rush

The "normal" service pattern for the "super" (referring to the (5)'s that run on WPR) is normal PM rush hour service to 180th. They continue express from 180-Gun Hill, then local to 238th-Nereid and terminate. Seldom do they actually run that "normal" service pattern. These are all the options available to it, decided by the TD at 180th-Unionport (who can see the entire WPR line in the Bronx):

 

1. "Gun Hill than all stops" - normal service pattern to 238th. Used when there is a (2) on the board in the Bronx (which would allow the express portion to Gun Hill) but it's far enough back that the (5) train will be allowed to terminate at 238th in front of it and be out of the way by time the (2) gets up there.

2. "Gun Hill next and last" - express to Gun Hill, which is its last stop. This is the case when a (2) is near 180th (either north or south) or the two trains made a connection at 180th. This is typically the most common solution.

3. "All stops to White Plains" - all local stops to 241st. This is when there is a delay in (2) service and the terminal desperately needs a train to maintain service. The crew typically loses the lay-up portion of the job and can deadhead to 239 yard to clear (AM crew) or go back to Dyre (PM crew) for their next trip. The T/D also typically tells the crew to change signs to a (2) not to confuse the customers. Because it was originally a WPR train, Dyre people were already either off the train, or never got on. This is among the only time it is lawful to change line bullets enroute.

4. "Inform your customers your going to Dyre today" - rerouted to Dyre for service. Either Dyre needs a train or there is a delay in (5) service behind this train. Typically there is a (2) train nearby to accommodate all the WPR customers. The crew is allowed to change their side signs, make a connection and make additional announcements.

5. "East 180th next and last" - train will terminate and go to either 180th yard or Unionport yard. Here, there are enough trains on the WPR branch, adding one up there might start congestion. Also, they usually use PM crews for this, to give them more time to travel to Dyre. The AM crews are scheduled to clear at 239, and usually go through.

 

One of these five options are used for every "super".

 

AM Rush

 

This is much simpler. As was said, service begins with the "0621 super" and ends with the "0817 super". They make all stops to 180th, then resemble normal (5) trains from there. They run the gambit of destinations. Most go to Flatbush. Others to Utica (and lay up). Still a couple go to Bowling Green (and terminate at 180th on the way back north). (2) trains typically get packed after the last super goes down, suggesting that the service ends too early. I used to have the (2) interval immediately following the last super every Monday, and there were still people looking for (5) service on WPR. Many stayed there even though I made announcements that (5) service was finished at every station (which I don't have to do, just courtesy).

 

But none go express from Gun Hill - 180th southbound, the service is needed up there. For the railfans that's a pity, as the Gun-Hill to 180th is probably the best express run in the Bronx, all straight, scenic, and downhill, and no timers until south of Pelham Parkway. The only time you see that is via GO, and there's usually flagging somewhere along the way.

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Guest lance25

@TwoTimer: Damn, that's a lot of routes for just one line (part-time no less). Thanks for clarifying. That does beg the question though of why they (management and the folks in charge of the schedules) don't just say the (5) is going to Gun Hill-White Plains Rds and not Nereid Av. You can't really call it a service cut if it only goes to its intended destination once in a blue moon. Yeah, I'm sure there will be those who will, but that's beside the point.

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@TwoTimer: Damn, that's a lot of routes for just one line (part-time no less). Thanks for clarifying. That does beg the question though of why they (management and the folks in charge of the schedules) don't just say the (5) is going to Gun Hill-White Plains Rds and not Nereid Av. You can't really call it a service cut if it only goes to its intended destination once in a blue moon. Yeah, I'm sure there will be those who will, but that's beside the point.

 

So that means the advertised (5) making local stops from E180 to Gun Hill almost never happens?

 

How many (2)(3)(4)(5) trains are sent to/from Utica/New Lots? (of course, for the (3)(4) I mean the other terminal than normal)

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So that means the advertised (5) making local stops from E180 to Gun Hill almost never happens?

 

How many (2)(3)(4)(5) trains are sent to/from Utica/New Lots? (of course, for the (3)(4) I mean the other terminal than normal)

 

Yeah there are no trains that go local to gun hill and terminate

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Always remember this, to keep things simple for the customers, there are certain routes that are not shown on the map (many have an asterisk type note).

 

Like the (E) to 179, all of those options available to the "super", back when the (W) ran there were some that ran down into Brooklyn and terminated at 86th or Kings Hwy (Sea Beach) when that track as still in service, and (R) trains that go into service at 59th, (F) to Kings Hwy, and of course the few (2)(5) trains that go in and out of New Lots in the rush hour. And lemme tell you, those Lex Av trains out of New Lots in the early AM are VERY popular.

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Always remember this, to keep things simple for the customers, there are certain routes that are not shown on the map (many have an asterisk type note).

 

Like the (E) to 179, all of those options available to the "super", back when the (W) ran there were some that ran down into Brooklyn and terminated at 86th or Kings Hwy (Sea Beach) when that track as still in service, and (R) trains that go into service at 59th, (F) to Kings Hwy, and of course the few (2)(5) trains that go in and out of New Lots in the rush hour. And lemme tell you, those Lex Av trains out of New Lots in the early AM are VERY popular.

 

Yep especially now with the GO knocking out the Joralemon tube till 5AM...those early AM people out there just can't wait for the first Lex train to come out of Livonia Yd. They don't like having to take the 3 until it shows up.

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Originally posted by Mark1447:

Yeah i did heard of 1 Super express, stopping only at Mott, 3rd Ave, 180th, Gun Hill and 241st then to 239th Yard, but would like to see if anyone can confirm this.

I was once heading from Grand Concourse to 241st Street and I boarded a <5> displaying Wakefield-241st Street. I noticed that the conductor announced this <5> train will only call at Mott, 180th, Gun Hill Rd then 241st. It did O_O. I think it was due to (2) disruptions on the route. If only this got properly put into schedule ¬.¬

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I was once heading from Grand Concourse to 241st Street and I boarded a <5> displaying Wakefield-241st Street. I noticed that the conductor announced this <5> train will only call at Mott, 180th, Gun Hill Rd then 241st. It did O_O. I think it was due to (2) disruptions on the route. If only this got properly put into schedule ¬.¬

 

Weird. It can happen, but it's really unlikely.

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Is there a BRONX EXP program for (5) to WAKEFIELD-241 ST?

 

Not sure. Of course can just load up the Wakefield program and take out stops, but I assume you're talking about a situation where that's already done. I know the (2) has one (express from 241, express from 180), and I'm not even sure if it had a Bronx Express program from Dyre.

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Is there a BRONX EXP program for (5) to WAKEFIELD-241 ST?

 

No, the stops have to be taken out manually for that.

 

There are 3 northbound (5) to 241st Routes - all via Lex Av Exp (and Brooklyn express if applicable): -Bowling Green -> 241, -Flatbush -> 241, -Utica -> 241

 

There is no such program for New Lots -> 241.

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Guest lance25

So, none of those programs have even a Lexington Avenue local to 241 St program? I could understand no Eastern Pkwy local, Lexington Avenue Express program or vice-versa, but through local to 241 St should be in there. If it's a space issue, perhaps it's high time to update these ancient computers.

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So, none of those programs have even a Lexington Avenue local to 241 St program? I could understand no Eastern Pkwy local, Lexington Avenue Express program or vice-versa, but through local to 241 St should be in there. If it's a space issue, perhaps it's high time to update these ancient computers.

 

Here is a bit of a sampling of some of the craziness that goes on with NTT's when routings that should be there are missing, not functioning, or incomplete:

 

None of those programs have a Lex Av Lcl variant. Local stops must be added back in manually but the train will continue announcing express...which is why during the 2/5 flipflop G/O's that were going on up until a few weeks back, the programs were always "wrong". Note: during this GO 2 trains were operated by 5 crews, and 5 trains operated by 2 crews. For all intents and purposes the number of the train referenced below is what the train had displayed for the riding public.

 

-The (5) to 241st would always announce "express" in Manhattan, even though all the local stops had been added back in by the crew...e.g. "This is a Bronx Bound 5 Express Train. The next stop is 68th Street, Hunter College."

 

-The (2) from Dyre to South Ferry is one of the most aggregious oversights in route programming. As a matter of fact, there isn't even a (2) program from 241st to South Ferry, let alone Dyre! Hence why during that same GO most (2) trains the crew made manual announcements from Dyre to East 180th, then punched in a program for 241st to Chambers St. (7th Ave Lcl) at East 180th and synchronized there.

 

So a couple of more complicated notes on that in case some want to see how muddled this can get. There were two alternate ways of programming the trains:

 

-Some crews programmed the train at Dyre for the (2) shuttle from Dyre to East 180th to get the automated announcements. Then at East 180th reprogrammed for 241st to Chambers via 7th Ave Lcl and synched at E180th. Not the best way to do it though as it's potentially misleading for the people getting on north of East 180th who don't think their train is going to Manhattan.

 

-There was, however, one REALLY clever way to get automated announcements for almost that whole run which I'll get to in a moment. Coming after the jump.

 

First: background info - There's a route for Dyre to Bowling Green via the old South Ferry Loop...which in theory could be edited to make new South Ferry the last stop since distance is close enough (and show on the side signs and interior signs as the terminal...such "non terminals" have been visible on NTT's in the past, such as the (6) to 86th Street over the summer when they had the derailment south of 125th, or the (6) to St. Lawrence Ave. about a year or so back when they had that GO where there was construction at Parkchester on the northbound.) Buttttttt.....South Ferry station has been inexplicably removed from ALL of the 2 and 5 line programs as both a station and a terminal. Therefore the best one could do with a single program was route for Dyre->Bowling Green, and knock out Bowling Green (while adding in Rector, the default route skips Cortlandt as well as Rector), meaning side signs would read "Rector St". But - Problem: this route only has the 7th Ave Exp variant (no local), so for the GO you would have the train displaying "7th Av Exp", and also the train say express in Manhattan AND continue to say "Bowling Green bound" despite the fact Bowling Green had been knocked out of the program (this is a design flaw IMO, but it really reflects the inability of the computer programs to be fully dynamic to the data that's input into them).

 

So without further ado, the clever way of programming the TOD: What could be done to make this work perfectly smoothly, is set the route at Dyre for Dyre -> Bowling Green and knock out everything after Chambers St. (train reads 2 Chambers St | 7th Av Exp), then synchronize for the 241st -> Chambers via 7th Avenue local route at Bronx Park East WHILE MOVING between Morris Park and East 180th while on the Dyre line about even with the Bronx Park East station. Resynch once at East 180th to make the program fully accurate to exact location. Then you've got fully automated announcements from Dyre to Chambers via local, and the train announces local in Manhattan. The only noticeable things here would be someone who got on north of East 180th and got off south of East 180th might notice the sign that once said 7th Av Exp says 7th Av Lcl, and some customers might notice the signs "going haywire" between Morris Park and East 180th.

 

But now the kicker - the problem with all 3 of these methods? Still no announcements for south of Chambers. Meaning manual announcements at Franklin (Chambers is NOT the next and last stop), Chambers (not "the last stop on the train, everyone please leave the train"), Rector, and South Ferry.

 

So yes, there are major oversights in the programs included. Particularly the (2). Why there are redundant programs for 238th Street to Flatbush/Utica/New Lots especially make no sense, because the 241st to Flatbush/Utica/New Lots programs can just be used and the train synchronized at 238th before taking on passengers, if that's ever the service used. Northbound routes TO 238th are more important than southbound routes FROM 238th because like I said earlier, the destination of the route must be the actual destination, otherwise the train will continue to announce the destination listed on the program, not the actual "last stop" as programmed by the crew. That frees 3 programs that could be put in right there - 2 Dyre to South Ferry, 2 241 to South Ferry. And if you get rid of the Dyre -> Bowling Green via Ferry loop route (not likely to be used in future GOs), that gives you another (4th) route that you could use with the remaining of the 3 to make local variants of 2 Dyre to Ferry and 2 241 to Ferry.

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Guest lance25

Thanks for your very detailed answer SubwayGuy. I really appreciate that. It explains why I heard the express destination announcement with the next stop being 103 St in one YouTube video recently. I thought it was glitch in the programming (like the "Manhattan-bound" one on downtown (6) trains).

 

As to the redundant programs, why do I have a feeling it's not limited to just the (2) line? I get that it makes it easier for the conductor so (s)he doesn't have to spend a few minutes adding or deleting stops from the route, but there really needs to be limited to reroutes or very shortened routes only (a shuttle from Atlantic to Flatbush for instance). There also needs to be some sort of middle ground with these programs. We went from having so few routings that the (5) to Utica Av (a very common routing) wasn't in the system to having a boatload with practically the same thing, taking up space unnecessarily. I bet you the R160s are even more bloated with these unnecessary programs.

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None of those programs have a Lex Av Lcl variant. Local stops must be added back in manually but the train will continue announcing express...which is why during the 2/5 flipflop G/O's that were going on up until a few weeks back, the programs were always "wrong". Note: during this GO 2 trains were operated by 5 crews, and 5 trains operated by 2 crews. For all intents and purposes the number of the train referenced below is what the train had displayed for the riding public.

 

 

I did see a reading like this once during the GO

 

5 BRONX-LEX AV LCL

5 EASTERN PKWY LCL

5 FLATBUSH AV

 

So some crews must have switched programs at E 180 St for the (5) as well.

 

 

 

-Some crews programmed the train at Dyre for the (2) shuttle from Dyre to East 180th to get the automated announcements. Then at East 180th reprogrammed for 241st to Chambers via 7th Ave Lcl and synched at E180th. Not the best way to do it though as it's potentially misleading for the people getting on north of East 180th who don't think their train is going to Manhattan.

 

 

 

The (2) has a Dyre shuttle program? Maybe MTA should use that when (5) replaces (2) to 241 St, and the Dyre line is a shuttle instead of having the (5) Dyre Avenue shuttle and the (5) to/from 241 St.

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Subwayguy, honestly all that info is mind-blowing.

useless programs should be out the window(with my crappy PC) :)

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