SBS for local bus routes

[TriboroughBridge]

In addition to the Limited/SBS's, do you think it would make sense to make the local buses ((Bx12), (M15) & (B44)) SBS also? not that they would skip any stops. but have fare boxes at bus stops, maybe even "bus only" lanes & maybe even extend the (B44) local to Williamsburg bridge, so people near New York Ave have SBS & service to the Willi-B.

 

Let me hear your thoughts.

['89 Liberty MCI]

Click: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/379880-post77.html

 

Informative post by checkmate, in response to some things I said in that thread. We started talking about this on page 5 of that thread.

[Gorgor]

Fare beating galore.

 

Besides that, most local buses can have 100+ stops in total, which would be an astronomical cost for the MTA to install SBS machines and maintain them.

[checkmatechamp13]

Click: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/379880-post77.html

 

Informative post by checkmate, in response to some things I said in that thread. We started talking about this on page 5 of that thread.

 

Thanks for the compliment. :tup:

 

To elaborate, say you have a bus stop that sees 1,000 riders a day in each direction (Just a random number). The cost of maintaining the machine is basically divided over each of those riders (I mean, it puts a little bit of wear on the machine when somebody buys a ticket, but for the most part, the costs remain constant). When the bus pulls in, each bus might board 10 people, meaning the time savings are large because 10 people are just walking on instead of dipping in their MetroCard (on every single bus). That might be a typical limited stop on the route.

 

The local stops may vary. You may have a few that see 200-300 riders a day (per direction), but chances are a lot of them will see a really low number, like 50 riders per day. You have to install the machines at those stops, which will only be used by a (relatively) small number of people each day. Plus, when you pull over, you only have the time savings of 1 or 2 people walking on rather than dipping their MetroCard, which really aren't that large (especially when you consider that, for 1 or 2 people, they usually board and pay while the bus is pulling out of the stop)

[Gorgor]

Thanks for the compliment. :tup:

 

To elaborate, say you have a bus stop that sees 1,000 riders a day in each direction (Just a random number). The cost of maintaining the machine is basically divided over each of those riders (I mean, it puts a little bit of wear on the machine when somebody buys a ticket, but for the most part, the costs remain constant). When the bus pulls in, each bus might board 10 people, meaning the time savings are large because 10 people are just walking on instead of dipping in their MetroCard (on every single bus). That might be a typical limited stop on the route.

 

The local stops may vary. You may have a few that see 200-300 riders a day (per direction), but chances are a lot of them will see a really low number, like 50 riders per day. You have to install the machines at those stops, which will only be used by a (relatively) small number of people each day. Plus, when you pull over, you only have the time savings of 1 or 2 people walking on rather than dipping their MetroCard, which really aren't that large (especially when you consider that, for 1 or 2 people, they usually board and pay while the bus is pulling out of the stop)

 

Unless it's going to save at least a minute at a stop, the bus is still going to get caught by the lights up ahead so the actual time saved in total would be really low.

 

Machines will naturally break down due to the weather as well as just over time, and is it really worth it because the MTA is going to be spending a million dollars at least (they're the MTA, they'll find a way to make it cost more than it needs to), and they're not going to be gaining ANY money whatsoever. They'll also need to hire more fare inspectors. If there aren't fare inspectors there most of the time then people will be more prone to fare beat depending on which bus line it is.

 

So the MTA would not get ANYTHING out of this. Unlike SBS this WILL NOT attract new riders because it will only speed up the average commute by not even a minute because if people are using the bus to commute they're going a short distance or they'd be taking the limited or subway. If they're going short distances such as only a few stops, then the odds of them fare beating and getting away with it are enormous. (Out of the 25+ times I've been on the M15 SBS I've only seen fare inspectors once.)

 

Let me repeat, the MTA will get NOTHING WHATSOEVER out of such a service, and definitely the regular maintenance costs + fare inspectors will be more than any of the supposed increase in ridership revenue. The average commute will only be sped up by a minute, if even.

[qjtransitmaster]

In addition to the Limited/SBS's, do you think it would make sense to make the local buses ((Bx12), (M15) & (B44)) SBS also? not that they would skip any stops. but have fare boxes at bus stops, maybe even "bus only" lanes & maybe even extend the (B44) local to Williamsburg bridge, so people near New York Ave have SBS & service to the Willi-B.

 

Let me hear your thoughts.

 

only local routes with 10 stops or less that run via highway or very short lines. If B39 was restored then it may work BUT only if the route is reconfigured. I mean B24 should not be the only route on BQE

[Gorgor]

only local routes with 10 stops or less that run via highway or very short lines. If B39 was restored then it may work BUT only if the route is reconfigured. I mean B24 should not be the only route on BQE

 

But routes with such few stops don't have enough ridership to warrant such high costs. Remember, the MTA should be trying to make money, not waste it on pointless stuff that will only help 10,000 people or less each day by making their commute a minute shorter.

[TriboroughBridge]

Ok, I understand guys. Thanks!

 

I just really wish the would extend the (B44) to Williamsburg

[qjtransitmaster]

But routes with such few stops don't have enough ridership to warrant such high costs. Remember, the MTA should be trying to make money, not waste it on pointless stuff that will only help 10,000 people or less each day by making their commute a minute shorter.

 

Not if it's highway based a line over BQE with HOV should attract many new riders.

[mark1447]

In addition to the Limited/SBS's, do you think it would make sense to make the local buses ((Bx12), (M15) & (B44)) SBS also? not that they would skip any stops. but have fare boxes at bus stops, maybe even "bus only" lanes & maybe even extend the (B44) local to Williamsburg bridge, so people near New York Ave have SBS & service to the Willi-B.

 

Let me hear your thoughts.

 

Nah, your just causing fare evasion to increase as it is. But even without this fare beating is still up.

 

Besides that, this would cost money, require more maintenance , and doesn't rly speed up the route (Boardings faster, but doesn't really cut time majorly).

 

The only local route that did get the +SBS would be the M34, as there is no LTD on it.

 

I would like to see +SBS maybe on the M98, but thats a thought.

[Gorgor]

Nah, your just causing fare evasion to increase as it is. But even without this fare beating is still up.

 

Besides that, this would cost money, require more maintenance , and doesn't rly speed up the route (Boardings faster, but doesn't really cut time majorly).

 

The only local route that did get the +SBS would be the M34, as there is no LTD on it.

 

I would like to see +SBS maybe on the M98, but thats a thought.

 

SBS is needed for routes that are caught in significant traffic and/or have a huge amount of riders using practically every bus stop every day during the day. The M34 runs straight through Midtown, and has tons of riders. The M15 bus lanes have lowered travel times and provide service to those living on the far East Side.

 

Putting SBS on the M98 is like putting SBS on an express bus, it simply won't work, plus the machines would confuse the hell out of people waiting for an M101/102/103. The M98 uses the highway for a huge portion of its route and then acts like a limited. If SBS was added, they'd need to have fare inspectors right before the highway, which would stop the bus and get rid of any potential time savings. In addition to that, it would need to be drop off only after the highway unless they want to have another team of fare inspectors.

[checkmatechamp13]

SBS is needed for routes that are caught in significant traffic and/or have a huge amount of riders using practically every bus stop every day during the day. The M34 runs straight through Midtown, and has tons of riders. The M15 bus lanes have lowered travel times and provide service to those living on the far East Side.

 

Putting SBS on the M98 is like putting SBS on an express bus, it simply won't work, plus the machines would confuse the hell out of people waiting for an M101/102/103. The M98 uses the highway for a huge portion of its route and then acts like a limited. If SBS was added, they'd need to have fare inspectors right before the highway, which would stop the bus and get rid of any potential time savings. In addition to that, it would need to be drop off only after the highway unless they want to have another team of fare inspectors.

 

Actually, I do think the M101 should receive +SBS+ (make it have limited stops along 125th Street and Broadway, and just have a local for the portion in Washington Heights).

 

I guess while they're at it, the M98 could receive it as well.

[Gorgor]

Actually, I do think the M101 should receive +SBS+ (make it have limited stops along 125th Street and Broadway, and just have a local for the portion in Washington Heights).

 

I guess while they're at it, the M98 could receive it as well.

 

The M101 limited runs parallel to the train, so anyone taking the bus is only taking it a short distance or else they'd just take the train. Remember, when you make a route SBS you need to remember the enormous costs for not just fare machines, but the salaries of the dozens of fare inspectors needed. SBS is intended to be a subway on wheels, and there's no point in having one that runs directly along on a subway line already.

 

M15 is for the far east side, M34 is a crosstown one, and the one in the Bronx goes across the Bronx.

[checkmatechamp13]

The M101 limited runs parallel to the train, so anyone taking the bus is only taking it a short distance or else they'd just take the train. Remember, when you make a route SBS you need to remember the enormous costs for not just fare machines, but the salaries of the dozens of fare inspectors needed. SBS is intended to be a subway on wheels, and there's no point in having one that runs directly along on a subway line already.

 

M15 is for the far east side, M34 is a crosstown one, and the one in the Bronx goes across the Bronx.

 

But despite parallelling the it still sees significant ridership. The turnover is probably less than that of the M15, but there would still be significant savings in boarding time, which would somewhat offset the costs of the fare inspectors.

 

Plus, it is sort of a crosstown route. Somebody could be going from Washington Heights to East Harlem, and putting +SBS+ on the M101 would make the trip easier for riders making trips like that.

[error46146]

If you're going to cut the M101 to go only between Washington Heights to 125th, then sure go ahead make it SBS..the Lex Ave portion of it is definitely not worth it tho imo

[Fresh Pond]

only local routes with 10 stops or less that run via highway or very short lines. If B39 was restored then it may work BUT only if the route is reconfigured. I mean B24 should not be the only route on BQE

 

Now theres the problem. The B39 was literally 4 stops. How would SBS help in any on that route

[East New York]

The only local runs I can see SBS working effectively are the M34, M42, and the 125th street corridor if done right.

[Future ENY OP]

Ok, I understand guys. Thanks!

 

I just really wish the would extend the (B44) to Williamsburg

 

Don't mean to chime in BUT (B44) already goes thru Williamsburg.

If Flushing Avenue isn't enough of a part-time terminal in E. Williamsburg/Bed Stuy (Northside) and Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. What else gives? Why extend the 44..

 

PS: +44SBS+ Winter 2012/2013.

[mark1447]

The M101 limited runs parallel to the train, so anyone taking the bus is only taking it a short distance or else they'd just take the train. Remember, when you make a route SBS you need to remember the enormous costs for not just fare machines, but the salaries of the dozens of fare inspectors needed. SBS is intended to be a subway on wheels, and there's no point in having one that runs directly along on a subway line already.

 

M15 is for the far east side, M34 is a crosstown one, and the one in the Bronx goes across the Bronx.

 

So? The M15+SBS would be paralleled to the SAS when it opens after 2016.

 

And the M101 is not all paralleled to the Lex, it does runs on 3rd Ave, Amsterdam and 125th Street, which the IRT Lex Line isn't found.

[TriboroughBridge]

Don't mean to chime in BUT (B44) already goes thru Williamsburg.

If Flushing Avenue isn't enough of a part-time terminal in E. Williamsburg/Bed Stuy (Northside) and Williamsburg Bridge Plaza. What else gives? Why extend the 44..

 

PS: +44SBS+ Winter 2012/2013.

 

By Williamsburg, I meant by the Marcy Ave (, & ) station.

 

Only the (B44) limited goes there & after the (B44) becomes SBS it wont operate on New York Ave anymore which wont give people along New York Ave service to the Bridge or the , or .

[Interested Rider]

How about extending the B/44 Select Bus to 34th Street and 1st Avenue via the Williamsburg Bridge and 1st Avenue (return on 2nd Avenue) and changing the southern terminal to Kingsborough Community College with the local bus continuing to Knapp Street.

[Mysterious2train]

I definitely do not agree with moving the B44 Limited to Rogers Av, but I agree with the (MTA)'s decision to keep the B44 local at Flushing Av. Ridership between WBP and Flushing Av is pretty light. On Weekdays, every other B44 Limited terminates at Flushing Av along with the local. If there's not even enough demand on Lee Av/Bedford for every B44 Limited bus to run up there Monday - Friday, there's definitely not enough to run some local buses up there.

 

Extending the B44 to 34th St would make it pretty long, you know. I don't think it's a bad idea, just saying. And sending it to Kingsboro? I'd love easier access to there, but I think the should expand on the B49 first. And I don't think Knapp St customers will be too happy to trade in the Limited/SBS for the Local.

 

As for the M101, as much as I think SBS might help, ultimately I think it shouldn't get it.

 

The M101 is pretty darn long. The combined annual ridership of it, M102 and M103 is 22.1 million, which trounces the M15' 17.8 million riderbase pretty handily. Add in the M98 and the whole corridor comes to about 23 million annually. Not bad at all for a corridor paralleling a subway line for several miles, eh?

 

Of course there are other factors, to this, like fare-beating on the M15, the axed City Hall branch of the M15 (some of those riders likely switched to the M103) or the Upper segments on the M98, M101 and M102 which you may not want to include.

 

Anyway, I think it's clear that even with the below, it's not unreasonable to at least think about putting SBS on the 101.

 

Of course, there are complications.

 

- To put SBS on the 101, seeing as how it's a daytime Limited-only route (that makes local stops above 125 St) you'd have to rescind the M101 making all stops above 125th St (unless the adds a bunch of local M101/M103 service to 193rd St, which would more than likely add excess service), and rescinding the local stops on the M101 on Amsterdam would probably put too much strain on the M100. Plus, above 163rd, there would have to be stops located a reasonable distance apart, seeing as how the M101 SBS would be the only route up there.

 

- To put SBS on the M101, the route should probably be re-extended to City Hall.... but what would happen to the M103?

 

- With the Second Avenue Subway coming, the M101 and its sister routes will probably dive in ridership. If the SAS wasn't coming in a few years/decades I think this might be a little more worthwhile.

 

Still, I think the M101 as is is pretty sluggish. Boarding on 125th St takes too long, and it shouldn't really take 30+ minutes just to go from City College to the ... but that's life.

 

To actually get on-topic, I think an SBS version of the local Bx12 (Bx72, or ?) wouldmI definitely do not agree with moving the B44 Limited to Rogers Av, but I agree with the (MTA)'s decision to keep the B44 local at Flushing Av. Ridership between WBP and Flushing Av is pretty light. On Weekdays, every other B44 Limited terminates at Flushing Av along with the local. If there's not even enough demand on Lee Av/Bedford for every B44 Limited bus to run up there Monday - Friday, there's definitely not enough to run some local buses up there.

 

Extending the B44 to 34th St would make it pretty long, you know. I don't think it's a bad idea, just saying. And sending it to Kingsboro? I'd love easier access to there, but I think the should expand on the B49 first. And I don't think Knapp St customers will be too happy to trade in the Limited/SBS for the Local.

 

As for the M101, as much as I think SBS might help, ultimately I think it shouldn't get it.

 

The combined annual ridership of the M101, M102 and M103 is 22.1 million, which trounces the M15' 17.8 million riderbase pretty handily. Add in the M98 and the whole corridor comes to about 23 million annually. Not bad at all for a corridor paralleling a subway line for several miles, eh?

 

Of course there are other factors, to this, like fare-beating on the M15, the axed City Hall branch of the M15 (some of those riders likely switched to the M103) or the Upper segments on the M98 and M101 which you may not want to include.

 

Anyway, I think it's clear that even with the below, it's not unreasonable to at least think about putting SBS on the 101.

 

Of course, there are complications.

 

- To put SBS on the 101, seeing as how it's a daytime Limited-only route (that makes local stops above 125 St) you'd have to rescind the M101 making all stops above 125th St (unless the adds a bunch of local M101/M103 service to 193rd St, which would more than likely add excess service), and rescinding the local stops on the M101 on Amsterdam would probably put too much strain on the M100. Plus, above 163rd, there would have to be stops located a reasonable distance apart, seeing as how the M101 SBS would be the only route up there.

 

- To put SBS on the M101, the route should probably be re-extended to City Hall.... but what would happen to the M103?

 

- With the Second Avenue Subway coming, the M101 and its sister routes will probably dive in ridership. If the SAS wasn't coming in a few years/decades I think this might be a little more worthwhile.

 

Still, I think the M101 as is is pretty sluggish. Boarding on 125th St takes too long, and it shouldn't really take 30+ minutes just to go from City College to the ... but that's life.

 

To actually get on-topic, I think an SBS version of the local Bx12 (Bx72, or Bx12A to accommodate the fare machines?) wouldn't be all that crazy, if only because of the potential to stop people from stuffing themselves on Selects while Local buses pass by relatively uncrowded (which I'm sure Bx12 SBS riders can attest to). There aren't too many local stops you'd have to add fare machines at, but they wouldn't get the usage of the bigger stops so Fare Machines there admittedly might be not worthwhile.

 

't be all that crazy, if only because of the potential to stop people from stuffing themselves on Selects while Local buses pass by relatively uncrowded (which I'm sure Bx12 SBS riders can attest to). There aren't too many local stops you'd have to add fare machines at, but they wouldn't get the usage of the bigger stops so Fare Machines there admittedly might be not worthwhile.

['89 Liberty MCI]

Welcome Interested Rider.

 

Response to part I of your post: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/f90/improving-b44-select-bus-service-28506.html

 

While it would be nice to send it over the Williamsburg Bridge, that bridge is just too nasty with the traffic. Traffic on Delancey, Allen, and the surrounding areas is also terrible, so the B44 SBS should not go through that.

 

Response to part II of your post: While it is true that the bus would carry more people if it served KCC (Kingsborough Community College) instead of Knapp Street, taking it away from Knapp Street would hurt that whole surrounding area in the long run. There are about nine 7-story apartment buildings back there, which is nothing to sneeze at when relating housing density to transit use, whether it be actual or projected.

 

Also you have the UA Theater, nursing homes, and other businesses along Emmons Avenue. All these businesses and their property values and the property values of residential units, would go way down if the only services back there were the B44 local (the B44 limited currently takes like a half hour to get from Knapp Street to the subway station it is supposed to feed at Nostrand Avenue-Flatbush Avenue; with the long ride to the subway being an obvious reason as to why it is avoided by many people that live near it in Sheepshead Bay, who instead use cars and car services to get around; another reason being the fact that it is a local/limited bus route and yet another reason being its acute reliability issues despite the fact that it is supposed to operate frequently) and B4 local, which always had terrible headways, even many years ago when MTA was not making cuts like it has been over the last few years.

 

Increasing service a lot on the B4 would not work since most people [strongly] dislike dealing with local/limited buses, especially when they can walk, drive, or use car services. So the ridership would not support these headways for the B4. This is why property values generally increase as you get closer to a subway station.

 

A B49 SBS might work though, if you want a SBS serving KCC. Just have the B49 SBS follow the pre-1978 route, which did not serve the Sheepshead Bay station. B1 SBS might be a problem since it travels under els too much, preventing DOT from putting bus lanes in these long sections.

 

Here is some more reading matter for you; it will answer a lot of other questions you might have:

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/f90/b44-selectbusservice-24255.html

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/f90/b44-sbs-open-house-october-4th-beginning-6pm-6-30-a-32338.html

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/f90/what-mta-dot-not-telling-you-about-b44-sbs-32546.html

 

Yes Mysterious2train, the Bx12 locals run practically empty most of the day. Those bus operators take dragging the road to a whole new level. =)

[Gorgor]

Yeah, M101 runs on the same streets as so many other buses for a large segment of their routes:

M98, M102, M103 on Lexington/3rd

M60, M100, Bx15 on 125th

M100 on Amsterdam

 

The only buses that run on the same streets as the M15 are crosstown buses using those streets to loop around.

 

If you gave M101 SBS riders going a short distance would be in quite a pickle. What do they do if they need to go from lets say 72nd and 3rd to 86th and 3rd? For such a short distance it's the fastest to take whichever bus comes first, even if it's a local, same with traveling along 125th Street and Amsterdam Avenue. The M15 SBS is good because there are no alternatives to it that stop at the same bus stop.

[checkmatechamp13]

So? The M15+SBS would be paralleled to the SAS when it opens after 2016.

 

And the M101 is not all paralleled to the Lex, it does runs on 3rd Ave, Amsterdam and 125th Street, which the IRT Lex Line isn't found.

 

Well, Third Avenue is close enough to Lexington Avenue that it could be considered parallel, but I'm sure there are a lot of riders making an L-shaped or even a double L-shaped trip (somewhere on Third/Lexington Avenue to somewhere on Amsterdam Avenue). I remember my mother and brother were going from the Cloisters to Museum Mile and instead of taking the to the (© to the M86, they just took the M4. I'm sure there are people making similar trips on the M101.

 

1) To put SBS on the 101, seeing as how it's a daytime Limited-only route (that makes local stops above 125 St) you'd have to rescind the M101 making all stops above 125th St (unless the adds a bunch of local M101/M103 service to 193rd St, which would more than likely add excess service), and rescinding the local stops on the M101 on Amsterdam would probably put too much strain on the M100. Plus, above 163rd, there would have to be stops located a reasonable distance apart, seeing as how the M101 SBS would be the only route up there.

 

2) To put SBS on the M101, the route should probably be re-extended to City Hall.... but what would happen to the M103?

 

3) With the Second Avenue Subway coming, the M101 and its sister routes will probably dive in ridership. If the SAS wasn't coming in a few years/decades I think this might be a little more worthwhile.

 

 

1) Yes, that would be the idea. The M100 would act as a local, except north of 163rd Street, where there'd either be a short-turn of the M101 from 193rd Street to 163rd Street (or possibly an extension of another route. Maybe since the M10 was cut back to Columbus Circle, it can be extended up to 193rd Street since it wouldn't be much more unreliable than before)

 

2) I don't see why that should be the case.

 

3) Right now, you have a local and limited every 6 minutes each throughout the day. I can't picture ridership dropping that much on those routes after the +SBS+ opens, so they'd probably warrant 8-10 minute headways at most, which is still feasable for +SBS+.

 

Plus, I also think +SBS+ should go on the M2. It's in the same situation as the M15 as far as distance from Lexington Avenue goes, but the issue is what to do along Clayton Powell Blvd, as there's no other route that serves that corridor.