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'89 Liberty MCI

(B)(Q) vs. (2)(5) Delays and Crowding in Brooklyn

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Which lines get delayed less due to merges and stuff like that, and does anybody know which lines do a better job of sticking to the schedule? I would think the IRT (in spite of the problems at Rogers Junction) since there is less merging and fewer routes in the Brooklyn IRT than in the more complicated BMT Southern Division. I split it up as follows for ease of comparison. In general, the main focus is the (B)(Q)(2)(5):

 

Manhattan-bound (B)(Q) vs. (2)(5):

 

(B) has to merge with (Q) before Prospect Park, then merge with (D) before the Manhattan Bridge.

 

(Q) has to merge with (B), then merge with (N) before the bridge.

 

(2) has to merge with (3) at Rogers Junction. Seems less complicated than the BMT.

 

(5) has to wait for (3) and then merge with (4) at Rogers Junction. Also seems less complicated than the BMT.

 

Brooklyn-bound (B)(Q) vs. (2)(5):

 

(B) has to merge with (Q) after the bridge.

 

(Q) has to merge with (N) before the bridge, then merge with (B) after the bridge.

 

(2) has to merge with (5) at Rogers Junction. Then there are delays at Flatbush.

 

(5) has to wait for (3) and then merge with (2) at Rogers Junction. Again, delays at Flatbush.

 

To clarify what I am asking, how badly do these merges delay or slow up service on these lines? Does the BMT or IRT (again, emphasis on the (B)(Q)(2)(5)) have more to suffer from?

 

Also, which trains are usually more crowded in Brooklyn and south of 59 Street (Midtown)? Which are less reliable? Which are less frequent? The (B)(Q) seem less frequent than the (2)(5).

 

Last thing. I know trains generally travel faster through tunnels than over bridges. The speed restriction for NYC subway trains crossing bridges is 25mph, correct? My experience has been that Brooklyn IRT trains go through the East River tunnels much faster than BMT trains cross the Manhattan Bridge. I remember the BMT trains moving very slowly on the bridge.

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I live in the service area of these four routes (Flatbush).

 

While I ride the B8 for commuting since I work within BK, most times I end up taking the (R) to one of the four subway lines home and ride them sometimes coming from the city doing recreation.

 

The (2) is the least crowded its not even close, even during the PM rush the (2) is barely SRO if at all leaving Wall Street heading towards BK, I can't even remember the last time I had to stand on a BK bound (2) train after Chambers Street.

 

The (2)/(5) is hands down worst with the delays, with the IRT routes, there's Rogers Junction AND that crappy Flatbush Terminal to deal with.

 

In the case of the (5) it crawls during rush hour between 42nd and Frankin Ave.

 

Wheres with the (;)/(Q), its only the merge is with the (Q) after the Bridge going into DeKalb. I can't speak on Northbound as I haven't rode the (B)/(Q) north of Newkirk on a regular basis in years.

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I'm speaking from personal experiences.

 

When it comes to frequency, the (2) & (5) take the crown. I know the (2) has bad frequency, but it's a hell of a lot better than the (B) & (Q)! During the day I gotta wait like 10-12 mins for a (B) or (Q) & weekends, let's not even go there...

 

But for reliability, I give to the (B) & (Q). Yeah they are very infrequent, but when I get them, I dont usually get stalled for long even with all the merges. Merging after/before the Manhattan bridge doesn't happen too often & by Prospect Park, even less. As for the IRT Rogers Junction, it's a nightmare over there! 6 out of 10 times the (5) has to stall at President St. While the (2) is stalled 3 out of 10 times. & let's not forget about the slow speeds between Franklin & Atlantic Aves northbound.

 

Now when it come to crowding, I give this to the (B) & (Q) (I'm saying this like they're a winner! ;)) I find myself standing more in Brooklyn on the (B) & (Q) than on the (2) & (5).

 

Now when it come to Bridge Vs. Tunnel, it's kinda tough, cause I love the scenic view of a bridge, especially the Manhattan bridge, but I also love the speed of a tunnel. I'm gonna give it to bridges. Sure trains may not be as speedy on bridges as they are in tunnels, but the views are awesome & they don't go that slow, usually the (B), (D), (N) or (Q) take about 3-4 minutes to cross the bridge.

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Weekdays the (2)(5) have a better frequency than the (B)(Q). Something along these lines:

 

(2) every 6-8 minutes, (5) every 6-8 minutes, (2)(5) every 3-4 minutes.

 

(B) every 8-10 minutes, (Q) every 8-10 minutes, (B)(Q) every 4-5 minutes.

 

Typically the tighter headway occurs during the AM rush with the looser headway occurring during the midday and PM rush.

 

Weekends the (Q) has a 10-minute headway while the (2) has a 12 (sometimes 13) minute headway. That is just on paper though. I have not used the (Q) on the weekend in years. The (2) does stick to its schedule on the weekends in spite of the poor headway.

 

A little off-topic: I have had some very bad experiences with the BMT South lines before. Just this past weekend I was waiting for a southbound (D) at Columbus Circle so I could go ride the Arnines. Damn (D) train went through the station empty and out of service. After a (C) and an (A) came and left. Then after the (D) came through another (A) and (C) came and left. I ended up taking that (C) to Port Authority for the (E) to Queens Plaza. *Face palm face palm face palm*

 

I mention this because it sort of does relate to the original thread topic. It may just be me, but I notice more irregularity on the BMT South lines (though I have no problems with the other BMT lines) than on the Brooklyn IRT (and IRT in general). Another factor that might influence my opinion is the fact that the Brooklyn IRT seems to offer more flexibility. With BMT South lines, you only have so many ways of getting to a particular destination because of their logistics. With Brooklyn IRT lines, you have more flexibility because the lines spend a lot more time paralleling each other. For example to get from Times Square to Flatbush during the week you can either take a (2) all the way or a (3) to a (5). Or even a (2) to a (5) (transfer at Nevins) since the headways are so tight. From Union Square you can take a (5) all the way or a (4) to a (2).

 

BMT from Times Square or Union Square to Brighton express stations during the week, it has to be either a (Q) all the way or a (R) to a (B) (transfer at DeKalb). Not as many options. Even from Herald Square the only 6th Avenue train you can take is the (B). Cannot even use the (D) because it skips DeKalb (like the (N)) and you would have to walk through the whole Atlantic terminal complex to get to the (Q). If you go to the BMT Broadway level at Herald Square, you can only do what you do at Times or Union.

 

A little off-topic II: The (2) and (3) operate every 12 minutes for a combined headway averaging out to 6 minutes on the weekends, yet the combined headway is almost never even. It always seems to be a (2) 3 minutes after a (3), then a (3) 9 minutes after the (2) and so on and so forth.

Edited by '89 Liberty MCI
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It's probably worse for the (2), (3), and (5). The junction services 3 frequent lines, the (5) must switch twice, and if there's a Manhattan-bound (4), it's held (which also hold the (2) trains behind it).

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The 2/5 wins in the delays department, hands down.... There is a problem when it takes me damn near 45 mins to get to chambers st from church av (not to mention I'd then have to xfer to the 1 there), compared to about 30 mins to get to west 4th from church..... It's not uncommon to have to experience at least 5 mins. worth of delays (heading towards manhattan) before even leaving brooklyn.....

 

The crowding department goes to the B/Q on the count of, it gets you to a] downtown brooklyn & b] out of brooklyn, far quicker than the 2/5......

 

In Brooklyn, (:P/(Q) >>>>>> (2)/(5) AFAIC !

 

 

 

I can't even remember the last time I had to stand on a BK bound 2 train after Chambers Street.

From Manhattan/Bronx, you must not take 2's much during the rush then...... Lucky you....

 

At chambers itself, granted, the 3 has a tendency to come before the 2 (picking up more of the crowds), but 2's are still crowded.... Once upon a time, I used to take the 2 home... but it's gotten so bad where I had to consider the freakin express bus.... I've lost that much faith in the 2.....

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You mean to tell me that the delays on the Brooklyn IRT make the trains run 15 minutes late? Google transit says the trip on the IRT (IRT station of origin to IRT station of destination) takes no more than 31 minutes, while the (:P gets the trip done in 22 minutes during most times of the day ((B) station of origin to (B) station of destination).

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The 2/5 wins in the delays department, hands down.... There is a problem when it takes me damn near 45 mins to get to chambers st from church av (not to mention I'd then have to xfer to the 1 there), compared to about 30 mins to get to west 4th from church..... It's not uncommon to have to experience at least 5 mins. worth of delays (heading towards manhattan) before even leaving brooklyn.....

 

You've got the worst luck then. it usually takes me a little less than 45 minutes to get from Times Sq to Sterling St :P

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You mean to tell me that the delays on the Brooklyn IRT make the trains run 15 minutes late? Google transit says the trip on the IRT (IRT station of origin to IRT station of destination) takes no more than 31 minutes, while the (B) gets the trip done in 22 minutes during most times of the day ((B) station of origin to (B) station of destination).

If you're referring to my post...

 

When I used to take the [(2) to the (1)] to work, I never got to chambers st. in no 1/2 hour.... Not once, not even close, never expected to have it happen either.... it was always around the 40-45 min range.....

 

 

You've got the worst luck then. it usually takes me a little less than 45 minutes to get from Times Sq to Sterling St :P

yeah, that's heading towards brooklyn....

the PM rush hour 2 isn't near as bad w/ the delays as the AM rush hour 2.....

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If you're referring to my post...

 

When I used to take the [(2) to the (1)] to work, I never got to chambers st. in no 1/2 hour.... Not once, not even close, never expected to have it happen either.... it was always around the 40-45 min range.....

 

I read you. I imagine you generally prefer the one-seat ride to/from Chambers via the (2) and that you seldom take the (2)(3) to the (5)? Or is it that the (2)(3) and (5) never really meet up anywhere to make the cross-platform transfers easy, thus defeating the purpose of taking the (2)(3) to the (5)? Vice-versa when heading towards Manhattan from the Nostrand Avenue corridor ((5) to Nevins or Borough Hall for the (2)(3) to the west side).

 

40-45 minutes is just the amount of time you spent riding the train, and does not even include the wait time?

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I remember back in 2001 when I was nine years old my dad and I were waiting for a (2) to Church Avenue at Franklin Avenue. But everything that came were just back to back (3)s and (4)s. For about 20 minutes we waited until a (5) train came. Mind you, it was a weekend this all occurred on. The next time I ever saw a (5) in Brooklyn on a weekend was the weekend following 9/11.

 

I hate the (2) with a passion. Extremely unreliable and unpredictable. This past February I waited almost half an hour for one at Gun Hill Road to head to Manhattan.

 

I never had issues with Brighton. I lived roughly 10-15 minutes away from it since I was a kid before I moved to Queens in 2000. To this day I'd use the (Q) over the (2) or (5).

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I just realized that the MTA trip planner is more accurate than Google transit. Google transit seems extremely inaccurate and unrealistic when transfers are involved. Not that these are substitutes for personal experiences, but just saying. The MTA trip planner gives travel times that are closer to that listed by TriboroughBridge (for the trip from Times Square to Sterling) than the travel times given by Google transit.

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yeah, that's heading towards brooklyn....

the PM rush hour 2 isn't near as bad w/ the delays as the AM rush hour 2.....

 

 

Buddy, I wasn't talkin about Rush Hours, I was talking about during the day, say about 1:00PM

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I remember back in 2001 when I was nine years old my dad and I were waiting for a (2) to Church Avenue at Franklin Avenue. But everything that came were just back to back (3)s and (4)s. For about 20 minutes we waited until a (5) train came. Mind you, it was a weekend this all occurred on. The next time I ever saw a (5) in Brooklyn on a weekend was the weekend following 9/11.

 

I hate the (2) with a passion. Extremely unreliable and unpredictable. This past February I waited almost half an hour for one at Gun Hill Road to head to Manhattan.

 

Dude, I feel you completely! ;) I have to go through the same crap, every single day!

 

In fact, yesterday, I was sitting in Grand Army Plaza & a Flatbush Ave bound (2) was leaving & the sign said the next (2) was coming in 16 minutes! *FACEPALM*

 

This happens to me way to often, especially on the weekends. Three (4) trains come by & three (3) trains come by, after a while a (2) train comes by! :mad:

 

I understand the (2) has the longest route from all Eastern Parkway trains, but why cant the (MTA) make shorter gaps for (2) trains?

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It's not just the (2), it's mostly every other IRT line that's like that. The (1), (6) and especially the (7) have better frequency on weekends, but the other lines are just mediocre. The (4) has some periods of 10 minute service, but other than that every other line's 12 minutes.

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It seems the (2) can be basically compared to an (F) on weekends. I was at the rock to see the tree. So I go to catch a queens-bound (F) and I saw three (F)s southbound and two (D)s before a crush loaded (F) came.

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Dude, I feel you completely! ;) I have to go through the same crap, every single day!

 

In fact, yesterday, I was sitting in Grand Army Plaza & a Flatbush Ave bound (2) was leaving & the sign said the next (2) was coming in 16 minutes! *FACEPALM*

 

This happens to me way to often, especially on the weekends. Three (4) trains come by & three (3) trains come by, after a while a (2) train comes by! :mad:

 

I understand the (2) has the longest route from all Eastern Parkway trains, but why cant the (MTA) make shorter gaps for (2) trains?

 

In addition to the variability that comes with the length of the route, the MTA probably kinda figures that it can get away with less service on the (2) as long as there are a few (3)s heading down the line. Wherever lines parallel each other you will have this sort of thing going on. Could also be that they figure the people can just use combinations of routes to get where they want to go, so keeping the trains on a set schedule is not of much importance to them, especially when the (5) is serving Flatbush. Hopefully ridership at the (2) stations increases enough for the MTA to put more trains on the (2), especially on weekends.

 

How common is it to be waiting at a station on the Nostrand Avenue line and have a train pass you while not in service? And what time was it that you waited 16 minutes for the (2) TB? The (2) is scheduled to operate every 6-8 minutes during the rush, how often and by how much does it deviate from this? Is the (5) as problematic as the (2) when the (5) serves Brooklyn?

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It's not just the (2), it's mostly every other IRT line that's like that. The (1), (6) and especially the (7) have better frequency on weekends, but the other lines are just mediocre. The (4) has some periods of 10 minute service, but other than that every other line's 12 minutes.

 

I'm surprised the (L) is not on that list. the reason for the (1), (6) & (7) having better headways than any other line is, 1) they use their own tracks & 2) they are busy lines.

 

In the morning, till approximately 11:30AM, I can understand why the system runs every 12 minutes, but after that every line should run every 8-10 minutes.

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In addition to the variability that comes with the length of the route, the MTA probably kinda figures that it can get away with less service on the (2) as long as there are a few (3)s heading down the line. Wherever lines parallel each other you will have this sort of thing going on. Could also be that they figure the people can just use combinations of routes to get where they want to go, so keeping the trains on a set schedule is not of much importance to them, especially when the (5) is serving Flatbush.

 

yes, but if I'm coming from 7 ave I want to take a (2) straight to Nostrand Ave, taking a (3) & (5) can sometimes actually make my trip longer.

 

If I see the next (2) is coming in 8+ minutes, especially during rush hour, I will take the (3) to the (5).

 

Hopefully ridership at the (2) stations increases enough for the MTA to put more trains on the (2), especially on weekends.

 

I really hope so also!

 

How common is it to be waiting at a station on the Nostrand Avenue line and have a train pass you while not in service?

 

While not exactly "NIS", & it's uncommon, not rare, but uncommon, that the (2) or (5) would run till President & then skip stops along Nostrand Ave.

 

And what time was it that you waited 16 minutes for the (2) TB? The (2) is scheduled to operate every 6-8 minutes during the rush, how often and by how much does it deviate from this?

 

Like I said, I was on a Northbound (2) & a Flatbush bound (2) was leaving, it was about 9:45AM. it happens quite often, not 16 minutes, but infrequent for during the day, especially on weekends & it's so damn annoying!

 

Is the (5) as problematic as the (2) when the (5) serves Brooklyn?

 

The (5) is not as bad, but it's not to far from the (2). Compared to the (3) & (4), the (2) & (5) have horrible service.

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It seems the (2) can be basically compared to an (F) on weekends. I was at the rock to see the tree. So I go to catch a queens-bound (F) and I saw three (F)s southbound and two (D)s before a crush loaded (F) came.

 

Yes, but the (2) has this problem in both directions! :mad:

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Buddy, I wasn't talkin about Rush Hours, I was talking about during the day, say about 1:00PM

Well you make a mention of me havin the worst luck, to then tell me you're talking about service during the off peak hours.....

 

 

 

I read you. I imagine you generally prefer the one-seat ride to/from Chambers via the (2) and that you seldom take the (2)(3) to the (5)? Or is it that the (2)(3) and (5) never really meet up anywhere to make the cross-platform transfers easy, thus defeating the purpose of taking the (2)(3) to the (5)? Vice-versa when heading towards Manhattan from the Nostrand Avenue corridor ((5) to Nevins or Borough Hall for the (2)(3) to the west side).

 

40-45 minutes is just the amount of time you spent riding the train, and does not even include the wait time?

 

I work on the west side, so the 5 does me no good for the AM commute...

 

When I used to take the 2 comin home though, sometimes I'd xfer on over to the 5 @ Nevins (the 5 was usually far more emptier than the 2 I would get off; which was crushloaded).....

 

and yes, that 40-45 mins represents the time spent on the train... hangups at president st. were common (and were the longest of em all).... sometimes it'd stall at bergen st (most likely due to a 3 ahead at atlantic)... it also had a tendency to stall at park place.... and after having (finally) pulled out of park place, the train would creep into chambers....

 

So add that up, along w/ the pax pushing their way in the train @ church, winthrop, and atlantic... and the entering/exiting of pax @ wall st & fulton st....

 

So to answer one of your prior questions:

You mean to tell me that the delays on the Brooklyn IRT make the trains run 15 minutes late?

yes, I'd say what I mentioned above would ~ add up to 15 mins.....

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Now that I mention it... and anyone can answer this if they want....

 

Why is is that manhattan bound trains (2's or 3's) tend to accelerate through the curve after nevins, but creep through the curve after park pl. ?

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From a previous message:

 

"Why is is that manhattan bound trains (2's or 3's) tend to accelerate through the curve after nevins, but creep through the curve after park pl."

 

Picture a four track line that curves at almost a 90-degree angle. The outer-most track - in this case the Manhattan-bound #2 and #3 track will have the easiest most broad path to follow. The trains can almost travel at a good speed. While the inner most outside track will have the short amount of space to turn - the Brooklyn-bound #2 and #3 track - thus trains will have to slow down.

 

An example of this is every-day practice - the curve between Hoyt Street and Nevins - is almost not noticeable in the Manhattan bound directions for the #2 and #3 trains, and a bit notice-able on the Manhattan-bound #4 and #5 trains. However the Brooklyn-bound sides of the #2, #3, #4 and #5 trains must slow down or almost crawl into the Nevins Street station after leaving Hoyt Street. One can also hear the squeel of the train's wheels while entering the station.

 

The curves at Park Place are about equal for both directions, and I believe any speed restrictions.

 

Mike

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From a previous message:

 

"Why is is that manhattan bound trains (2's or 3's) tend to accelerate through the curve after nevins, but creep through the curve after park pl."

 

Picture a four track line that curves at almost a 90-degree angle. The outer-most track - in this case the Manhattan-bound #2 and #3 track will have the easiest most broad path to follow. The trains can almost travel at a good speed. While the inner most outside track will have the short amount of space to turn - the Brooklyn-bound #2 and #3 track - thus trains will have to slow down.

 

An example of this is every-day practice - the curve between Hoyt Street and Nevins - is almost not noticeable in the Manhattan bound directions for the #2 and #3 trains, and a bit notice-able on the Manhattan-bound #4 and #5 trains. However the Brooklyn-bound sides of the #2, #3, #4 and #5 trains must slow down or almost crawl into the Nevins Street station after leaving Hoyt Street. One can also hear the squeel of the train's wheels while entering the station.

 

The curves at Park Place are about equal for both directions, and I believe any speed restrictions.

 

Mike

 

But why by Canal St ((N) & (Q)) do trains run at normal speed? it's tight ass curve, at 90 degrees & yet they run at normal speed. Brooklyn bound trains run a little slower than Queens bound trains, but still at normal speed.

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Please note that at Canal Street for the current N and Q express trains traveling to the Manhattan, the curve at Canal Street is at the end of a down-grade. There are several places in the system where the TA WANTS trains traveling on a down-grade to slow down, compared to their up-grade traveling sister track.

 

One example of this is at the section from the Whitlock Avenue station to Hunts Point on the #6 line in the Bronx. There the downtown #6 trains are traveling on a down-grade to get under-ground, while the uptown side is emerging from the subway to an elevated track. The downtown trains (both local and center track express) SLOW DOWN as the travel proceeds underground. I believe that there are speed restrictions in place (timer signals, etc). The uptown trains however travel at a good rate of speed emerging from underground to reach the elevated structure.

 

I believe that there are other examples of speed restrictions on down-grades in the subway system.

 

Mike

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