Question regarding late night service

[TriboroughBridge]

I wanted to know, during late nights, would it be worth it to close certain stations, due to very low ridership.

 

Here are a list of stations I would think should be closed during the night,

 

Bowery ,

The entire line,

Both Rockaway lines till Howard Beach,

E 143 St , etc.

 

I was never on the subway during the night, so I don't know if these stations are actually low in ridership, but the fact that they are low during the day, I don't think they would be any better at night.

 

I was thinking if the would close them during night hours, to maybe save some money, so they (the ) don't have to keep these stations open for 1 person.

 

Do you think it would be worth it, or not?

[Queens Surface]

Well I believe SubwayGuy explained that it would cost more money to get personal to shut down the stations every night. How else would people get from the Rockaways to the main part of Queens, Brooklyn or Manhattan?

[Shortline Bus]

I wanted to know, during late nights, would it be worth it to close certain stations, due to very low ridership.

 

Here are a list of stations I would think should be closed during the night,

 

Bowery ,

The entire line,

Both Rockaway lines till Howard Beach,

E 143 St , etc.

 

I was never on the subway during the night, so I don't know if these stations are actually low in ridership, but the fact that they are low during the day, I don't think they would be any better at night.

 

I was thinking if the would close them during night hours, to maybe save some money, so they (the ) don't have to keep these stations open for 1 person.

 

Do you think it would be worth it, or not?

 

Triboro this questions has been asked before but not recently. Do you travel late at night on the subways triboro?

 

1)"NO" to the Far Rockaway line as it's the only 24/7 mass transit service other than the Q113 that runs all night.

 

2)Only the Rockaway Park could be considered for a coordior to close.

 

As i stated before only a couple of stations in the Manhattan area that within couple of blocks of alternative service should be considered.

 

Rector St 18th Street Neck Road

 

As stated before closing the stations would actually cost more money. What would be your alternatives Triboro? Neighborhoods would scream at losing service.

[TriboroughBridge]

Well I believe SubwayGuy explained that it would cost more money to get personal to shut down the stations every night. How else would people get from the Rockaways to the main part of Queens, Brooklyn or Manhattan?

 

Just curious. Is it worth it? do people actually use these stations during the night? like I said, during the day, these stations aren't used by a lot, so how much better would it be during the night?

[RTOMan]

Just curious. Is it worth it? do people actually use these stations during the night? like I said, during the day, these stations aren't used by a lot, so how much better would it be during the night?

 

Im sorry what part of personel costs mean to you?

 

Other words not worth it...

[MikeGerald]

Several years ago the 18th Street station on the #1 line used to be closed at nights since the 14th Street station was so near to it. Supposedly closing the 18th Street saved on personnel costs, but really little else. The station still had to be lighted, power had to be supplied since trains (then both express and local) were passing through the station, and the station's gates had to be closed and opened. Conductors and operators had to be instructed to NOT stop at that station.

 

What was the cost savings? The persons manning the token booths.

 

Now the station is open 24/7/365. At nights there is no one manning the token booths - riders who need assistance are instructed to walk to 14th Street. However riders who have Metro-Cards can enter and exit the station as they please, and trains stop there 24/7/365.

 

The MTA is on a hunt to reduce manpower, since labor is its highest cost. There are ways to reduce manpower needs, while not leaving riders stranded or without options for travel. There are several stations that have lost, or are losing their token booths - meaning that the expenses for each station is dropping. The riders are still served but the costs of doing so is reduced.

 

Mike

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just curious. Is it worth it? do people actually use these stations during the night? like I said, during the day, these stations aren't used by a lot, so how much better would it be during the night?

 

Are you serious??? When I worked in Chelsea, I was near the 18th street subway station. 18th street is not like 14th street, but it is well used. I would not close any subway stations. My personal opinion is that if the continues to inform riders of where buses and subways are, you will see ridership continue to increase including less utilized stations and buses because they can time them, something they couldn't do before, so they would be more likely to walk to a bigger station with more connections in hopes of getting a train quicker.

[Shortline Bus]

Are you serious??? When I worked in Chelsea, I was near the 18th street subway station. 18th street is not like 14th street, but it is well used. I would not close any subway stations. My personal opinion is that if the continues to inform riders of where buses and subways are, you will see ridership continue to increase including less utilized stations and buses because they can time them, something they couldn't do before, so they would be more likely to walk to a bigger station with more connections in hopes of getting a train quicker.

 

I doubt you been on it but playing devil's adovcate VG8 what about the Rockaway Park(S) shuttle? I seen firsthand on trips during non-summer *No body riding it between 1-5am running at 20 minute headways. Sort of like you proposing bringing back Sunday X27/28 service when hardly anyone rode it.

 

In end the instead of closing stations will just (already started at several stations including 18th St and all of the Dyre Ave stations)is just have no station agents during overnights at the lightly used ones.

[Amtrak7]

I believe that the MTA should take the lowest third or fourth of stations in terms of overnight ridership and remove the station agents from them during the overnight hours.

 

With the exception of the Rockaway Park , there should be no overnight service removals from any stations (though half hourly headways on the might work) If they really want to keep the Rock Park , how about making it a really large headway (45min?) so that only one set is necessary?

[Shortline Bus]

I believe that the MTA should take the lowest third or fourth of stations in terms of overnight ridership and remove the station agents from them during the overnight hours.

 

With the exception of the Rockaway Park , there should be no overnight service removals from any stations (though half hourly headways on the might work) If they really want to keep the Rock Park , how about making it a really large headway (45min?) so that only one set is necessary?

 

I am sure the masterplan of the for their ongoing and next contract with the TWU will be a plan like that you mentioned Amtrak. Thus just install tv montiors and have frequent NYPD Transit patrols at those affected stations as well.

 

Regarding the Rock Park one idea is I would run it every hour and extend it to Euclid between 2-5am. That way riders on the Rockaway Pensuila can wait and transfer at Euclid which is warm and underground during colder weather.

[Amtrak7]

Regarding the Rock Park one idea is I would run it every hour and extend it to Euclid between 2-5am. That way riders on the Rockaway Pensuila can wait and transfer at Euclid which is warm and underground during colder weather.

 

To run hourly with one set the one way time plus layover has to be < 30min. Euclid is past that, Rockaway Bl would work but it's hard to turn there. How about Howard Beach?

[Shortline Bus]

To run hourly with one set the one way time plus layover has to be < 30min. Euclid is past that, Rockaway Bl would work but it's hard to turn there. How about Howard Beach?

 

Actually Howard Beach could work as at least that station is 'modern' and climate control from a fairly recent station upgrade 10 years ago when the airtrain started. Not sure of the track layout though for it to work.

[Red Leicester]

Hello,

 

Here are my thoughts from across the Atlantic, sorry to keep doing this but thought it might give a good comparison!

 

Hardly anything runs overnight on the UK rail network full stop! We have a token number of sleeper trains and an hourly service from London to Gatwick Airport, not even Heathrow is served 24 hours. The underground shuts down for 4 hours in London. We have a pretty good bus network overnight in London but move 15 miles out of London and there's... nothing!

 

Closing stations doesn't save that much money. All stations on the underground here are staffed on eight hour shifts and eight hours times three = three shifts per day. Shutting for four hours means you end up paying for people to do absolutely nothing as it doesn't fit in with shift patterns but people will still want paying. Overnight stations are still staffed as works take place, cleaning etc so the marginal cost of keep a station open is quite small. It's a bit like 24 hour supermarkets, the staff are there anyway filling shelves so why not open up to the public!

 

London Underground is trying to remove staff from some lightly used stations, hardly anyone is buying tickets, they did a survey once and 90% of people either use an Oyster card or buys their ticket from a machine but there are issues of passenger safety and the unions have also got involved and threatened to strike.

 

I think I'd live with a few stations being shut but a 24 hour service, I think New York is very lucky to have one.

[TriboroughBridge]

I would not close any subway stations.

 

I hope you got what I wrote? at night time. not close them permanently, just the night hours!

 

It doesn't matter anyways, people are telling me, it's not worth it. customer wise & money wise, it just ain't worth it.

[Shortline Bus]

Thanks for the info on the London tube(subway) Red. I agree that London should do what is done in Chicago's subway and that run '2' primary lines and open a few vital stations 24/7 with hourly service between 2-4am.

 

Plus a dumb question? With the Olympics coming this summer will the London subway be open 24/7 for the games?

 

 

Hello,

 

Here are my thoughts from across the Atlantic, sorry to keep doing this but thought it might give a good comparison!

 

Hardly anything runs overnight on the UK rail network full stop! We have a token number of sleeper trains and an hourly service from London to Gatwick Airport, not even Heathrow is served 24 hours. The underground shuts down for 4 hours in London. We have a pretty good bus network overnight in London but move 15 miles out of London and there's... nothing!

 

Closing stations doesn't save that much money. All stations on the underground here are staffed on eight hour shifts and eight hours times three = three shifts per day. Shutting for four hours means you end up paying for people to do absolutely nothing as it doesn't fit in with shift patterns but people will still want paying. Overnight stations are still staffed as works take place, cleaning etc so the marginal cost of keep a station open is quite small. It's a bit like 24 hour supermarkets, the staff are there anyway filling shelves so why not open up to the public!

 

London Underground is trying to remove staff from some lightly used stations, hardly anyone is buying tickets, they did a survey once and 90% of people either use an Oyster card or buys their ticket from a machine but there are issues of passenger safety and the unions have also got involved and threatened to strike.

 

I think I'd live with a few stations being shut but a 24 hour service, I think New York is very lucky to have one.

[TriboroughBridge]

This is a little off topic, but still about night service.

 

A little while back, I asked, "why do trains run local in the city during the night, isn't it long as it is?" & someone answered with, "say someone is coming from Freeman St & wants to get to 66 St. He waits up to 20 minutes for a , takes about 35 minutes to get 72 St, & then has to transfer to & wait up to another 20 minutes for just one stop."

 

Now this is a good answer, but why does the run express all times on Broadway? say someone is coming from Kings Highway & wants to go to 49 St.

 

Or the ? what if someone is coming from Bedford Pk Blvd & wants to go to 14 or 23 Sts? they got to wait up to 20 minutes for a , take it all the way to say, 34 St, (which is about 35-40 minutes) & wait for an , which could take up to another 20 minutes.

[Shortline Bus]

This is a little off topic, but still about night service.

 

A little while back, I asked, "why do trains run local in the city during the night, isn't it long as it is?" & someone answered with, "say someone is coming from Freeman St & wants to get to 66 St. He waits up to 20 minutes for a , takes about 35 minutes to get 72 St, & then has to transfer to & wait up to another 20 minutes for just one stop."

 

Now this is a good answer, but why does the run express all times on Broadway? say someone is coming from Kings Highway & wants to go to 49 St.

 

Or the ? what if someone is coming from Bedford Pk Blvd & wants to go to 14 or 23 Sts? they got to wait up to 20 minutes for a , take it all the way to say, 34 St, (which is about 35-40 minutes) & wait for an , which could take up to another 20 minutes.

 

Triboro i can answer for the IRT first. The used to run all night as the west side express. Then the powerful residents of the west side complained of waiting 20-25 minutes for a local '1'. So the 15 years ago decided to have the '2' also run local in Manhattan overnights.

 

I always felt that the '3' should run overnights to South Ferry to supplemental the '1'. While the '2' which is a very long route should be 'express' 24/7 in Manhattan.

 

For the Lex service, the '4' until i think the late 1970's ran express in Manhattan (Mike Gerald or someone can correct me if wrong). Then from the '70's until the mid '90's the '4' ran local in Manhattan while the was a shuttle between Pelham Bay and 125th. Then since the late '90's we had the current '4' '6' local set up.

 

On Friday and Saturday Nights only, the '4' should run express in Manhattan while the runs local with 10-15 minute headways until 4am as with a high # of club goers and out of town visitors using it back & forth from their hotels along the east side. While rest of the week, the current set-ups works.

 

Regarding the 'Q' it should run local between Times Sq. and Canal overnights when the 'R' is not running to help out the 'N'. However ridership is very light and no need to run the 'Q' through Lower Manhattan/Court St & Jay stations. Only reason it would be a problem for the 'Q' is 1)switching issues between tracks 2)Brighton riders being unhappy at added 5 minutes to their commutte.

 

With the running local in Queens, it should stay an express. What the should do is either 1)run the overnights with 10-15 minutes headways 2)Restore overnight QB service so the and could run express 24/7.

 

Finally on the IMO the runs frequent enough to run alone at 6th Ave local stations i.e transfer to the at 14th. If anything the is more needed to run local along Central park west overnights to help out the .

 

Just my takes to your question triboro.:eek:

[Amtrak7]

Well, if we remove the agents from the least-used stations from 10P to 5A, that's 7 hours of work not needed. It's alot cheaper to pay time and a half for one hour than 8 hours of straight time (plus additional benefits).

 

There's an interlocking south of Howard Beach that can be used to turn (if all shuttles start/end on one platform).

[Red Leicester]

Hello,

 

Yes I believe the tube is open 24/7 but "thinned out" overnight to allow essential checks to take place. The tube also runs 24/7 on special occasions such as New Years Eve / Day to discourage drink driving and move crowds (it's also the only time it is free for passengers to travel) and during the Queens Jubilee celebrations.

 

Heavy rail services are also running later into the night during the Olympics and trains are being strengthened in terms of number of carriages being run on services. I work in Ops Planning writing timetables (schedules) for London and the south east and we've had to alter our timescales and processes for the Olympics. Normally you can book a ticket 12 weeks before you want to travel but for the Olympics and Paralympics two weeks this changed to 52 weeks out.

 

 

Thanks for the info on the London tube(subway) Red. I agree that London should do what is done in Chicago's subway and that run '2' primary lines and open a few vital stations 24/7 with hourly service between 2-4am.

 

Plus a dumb question? With the Olympics coming this summer will the London subway be open 24/7 for the games?

[TriboroughBridge]

Triboro i can answer for the IRT first. The used to run all night as the west side express. Then the powerful residents of the west side complained of waiting 20-25 minutes for a local '1'. So the 15 years ago decided to have the '2' also run local in Manhattan overnights.

 

Why are west side residents "powerful"?

 

I always felt that the '3' should run overnights to South Ferry to supplemental the '1'. While the '2' which is a very long route should be 'express' 24/7 in Manhattan.

 

Thanks you! I always said, the should run local with the to South Ferry, but nobody seemed to agree with me.

 

For the Lex service, the '4' until i think the late 1970's ran express in Manhattan (Mike Gerald or someone can correct me if wrong). Then from the '70's until the mid '90's the '4' ran local in Manhattan while the was a shuttle between Pelham Bay and 125th. Then since the late '90's we had the current '4' '6' local set up.

 

Yeah, 1979 or 80.

 

Regarding the 'Q' it should run local between Times Sq. and Canal overnights when the 'R' is not running to help out the 'N'. However ridership is very light and no need to run the 'Q' through Lower Manhattan/Court St & Jay stations. Only reason it would be a problem for the 'Q' is 1)switching issues between tracks 2)Brighton riders being unhappy at added 5 minutes to their commutte.

 

First, the running over the bridge 24/7 is great, no changes to that. I was saying, why not make it local from Canal, to 42 St?

 

I can say the same thing about the . people coming from White Plains Road, won't be happy adding another 4 minutes or so to their 40 minutes ride.

 

With the running local in Queens, it should stay an express. What the should do is either 1)run the overnights with 10-15 minutes headways 2)Restore overnight QB service so the and could run express 24/7.

 

Yes I agree, the should stay express 24/7, along Queens Blvd.

 

Finally on the IMO the runs frequent enough to run alone at 6th Ave local stations i.e transfer to the at 14th. If anything the is more needed to run local along Central park west overnights to help out the .

 

The has horrible weekend service, how is late nights any better? And yes, I don't understand why the runs express on CPW. :confused:

[Shortline Bus]

Why are west side residents "powerful"?

 

:

 

Let see on why west side residents(I mean those below 96th St from Chelesa up to the Upper West Side)1)They singlehandely top (along with Charles and Jim Dolan of Cablevision/MSG fame and State Speaker Sheldon Silver)from the Jets/Olympic stadium being bulit. 2)Ditto for a planned Super Interstate Freeway called 'Westway" over the now Henry Hudson/West Side Highway.

 

In other words, the West Side is powerful politically in terms of the in being among the most influential neighborhoods they will go backwards to listen to. The is not doing that in most Bronx neighborhoods. That why we have the current overnight local service.

[mark1447]

I wanted to know, during late nights, would it be worth it to close certain stations, due to very low ridership.

 

Here are a list of stations I would think should be closed during the night,

 

Bowery ,

The entire line,

Both Rockaway lines till Howard Beach,

E 143 St , etc.

 

I was never on the subway during the night, so I don't know if these stations are actually low in ridership, but the fact that they are low during the day, I don't think they would be any better at night.

 

I was thinking if the would close them during night hours, to maybe save some money, so they (the ) don't have to keep these stations open for 1 person.

 

Do you think it would be worth it, or not?

 

Low ridership, but regardless, the MTA still runs service at even that.

 

143rd St on the , nah..

The Rockaways, expect flames to burst.

 

 

In Phila, they do shut down there own Market Frankford and Broad St Subway Lines, in place by Bus service at night. Even that sucks, but it does help get maintenance done faster in the subway then having trains in service.

 

Maybe a Shuttle bus service could do, but expect complaints by people about bus service being late. Just like then the train shuttle bus service use to run before 2008.

 

I think everything should stick by how it is.

[Shortline Bus]

Why are west side residents "powerful"?

 

 

 

Thanks you! I always said, the should run local with the to South Ferry, but nobody seemed to agree with me.

 

 

 

Yeah, 1979 or 80.

 

 

 

First, the running over the bridge 24/7 is great, no changes to that. I was saying, why not make it local from Canal, to 42 St?

 

I can say the same thing about the . people coming from White Plains Road, won't be happy adding another 4 minutes or so to their 40 minutes ride.

 

 

 

Yes I agree, the should stay express 24/7, along Queens Blvd.

 

 

 

The has horrible weekend service, how is late nights any better? And yes, I don't understand why the runs express on CPW. :confused:

 

I tend to feel since Broadway stations between Canal and Times Sq/42nd are now always busy 24/7 even overnights why not have the run local which i agree? It only adds at most 5 minutes to the trip. Triboro i was just playing devil's advocate on why this suggestion has yet to occur?

 

Also if the ever had full 24/7 service along the entire length between Forest Hills and Bay Ridge restored then keep the express overnights.

 

Again the being a long route biggest problem is bunching. It just needs better headways and if needed run a Battery run i.e skipping local stations at all times i.e 57th/6th, 23, 14th, etc. if it is more than 15 minutes late.

 

And with the assuming the bunching/delayed issue is solved, the only place it should local in Manhattan late nights is along CPW stations. The can be SRO crowded well into overnights between 168 and West 4th. If the ran as CPW Local(Only between 1am-5am)it would help out the .

 

Overall triboro I agree with your other ideas on overnight subway in rest of the city.

[DanTheTransitMan]

Low ridership, but regardless, the MTA still runs service at even that.

 

143rd St on the , nah..

The Rockaways, expect flames to burst.

 

 

In Phila, they do shut down there own Market Frankford and Broad St Subway Lines, in place by Bus service at night. Even that sucks, but it does help get maintenance done faster in the subway then having trains in service.

 

Maybe a Shuttle bus service could do, but expect complaints by people about bus service being late. Just like then the train shuttle bus service use to run before 2008.

 

I think everything should stick by how it is.

 

No, everything should not stay the way it is currently. The should be a 24/7 express route. It's a 25.70 mile route with 61 stations. It needs express service to improve the quality of the line as a whole and to decrease operating cost (slightly). On top of that I think the and not the should be the White Planes Road Express. There are many more problems that exist within the system but I digress. The system should not be kept as is because there are many flaws that exist within it that need to be improved.

[Shortline Bus]

No, everything should not stay the way it is currently. The should be a 24/7 express route. It's a 25.70 mile route with 61 stations. It needs express service to improve the quality of the line as a whole and to decrease operating cost (slightly). On top of that I think the and not the should be the White Planes Road Express. There are many more problems that exist within the system but I digress. The system should not be kept as is because there are many flaws that exist within it that need to be improved.

 

Danthetransitman. Would you support the running overnights as local to south ferry as supplemental to the ? The main reason the became a local overnight was the complaint of west side local riders that a growing ridership base.