DanTheTransitMan Posted January 16, 2012 Share #26 Posted January 16, 2012 Danthetransitman. Would you support the running overnights as local to south ferry as supplemental to the ? The main reason the became a local overnight was the complaint of west side local riders that a growing ridership base. Possibly. The only problem that I have with that idea is that the stations south of 14th street do not require 2 subway lines to serve them. It would be better to completely cut late night service and increase the headway times on the from 20 minutes to 15 minutes. That way you can accommodate the "extra" crows on the 7th avenue local line. The 7th avenue line does not need two locals just to accommodate these upper west sides fellows. The should have never been a made into a fully local route. It was not restructured because it was economically viable ,it was restructured this way just to comfort the upper west side residents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortline Bus Posted January 16, 2012 Share #27 Posted January 16, 2012 Then those living in Central Harlem especially the new residents of yuppies and hipsters will scream at losing 24/7 service to Midtown Dantransit. Possibly. The only problem that I have with that idea is that the stations south of 14th street do not require 2 subway lines to serve them. It would be better to completely cut late night service and increase the headway times on the from 20 minutes to 15 minutes. That way you can accommodate the "extra" crows on the 7th avenue local line. The 7th avenue line does not need two locals just to accommodate these upper west sides fellows. The should have never been a made into a fully local route. It was not restructured because it was economically viable ,it was restructured this way just to comfort the upper west side residents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lance25 Posted January 16, 2012 Share #28 Posted January 16, 2012 No, everything should not stay the way it is currently. The should be a 24/7 express route. It's a 25.70 mile route with 61 stations. It needs express service to improve the quality of the line as a whole and to decrease operating cost (slightly). On top of that I think the and not the should be the White Planes Road Express. There are many more problems that exist within the system but I digress. The system should not be kept as is because there are many flaws that exist within it that need to be improved. Way back when (I believe it was around 2000), the tossed around the idea of a diamond service in the Bronx. It was shot down hard. While I can't say for certain, I'm pretty sure that hasn't changed. Most White Plains Road local riders want 7th Avenue service, not Lexington Avenue. Sometimes, it's not just about how many stops a line makes. Possibly. The only problem that I have with that idea is that the stations south of 14th street do not require 2 subway lines to serve them. It would be better to completely cut late night service and increase the headway times on the from 20 minutes to 15 minutes. That way you can accommodate the "extra" crows on the 7th avenue local line. The 7th avenue line does not need two locals just to accommodate these upper west sides fellows. The should have never been a made into a fully local route. It was not restructured because it was economically viable ,it was restructured this way just to comfort the upper west side residents. Right now with both the and running local overnights, you have only a ten minute gap between trains (in theory of course). Making the the full-time express, even with 15 minute headways on the , will mean there are less trains serving a busy corridor. Sure, it's only five minutes, but during the late nights, those five minutes could be the difference between making or missing your connection when you're probably just trying to get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanTheTransitMan Posted January 16, 2012 Share #29 Posted January 16, 2012 Way back when (I believe it was around 2000), the tossed around the idea of a diamond service in the Bronx. It was shot down hard. While I can't say for certain, I'm pretty sure that hasn't changed. Most White Plains Road local riders want 7th Avenue service, not Lexington Avenue. Sometimes, it's not just about how many stops a line makes. Right now with both the and running local overnights, you have only a ten minute gap between trains (in theory of course). Making the the full-time express, even with 15 minute headways on the , will mean there are less trains serving a busy corridor. Sure, it's only five minutes, but during the late nights, those five minutes could be the difference between making or missing your connection when you're probably just trying to get home. I see your line of logic but you have to remember that we are living in an era were the MTA has to be efficient with their money. Having the train run express and cutting over-night service on the line is efficient. You are essentially cutting 15 runs on a line and replacing it with an extremely viable alternative. On top of that ridership on the 7th avenue local has not grown to the point were two lines are needed on the same corridor. People have to make due with less just like the MTA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanTheTransitMan Posted January 16, 2012 Share #30 Posted January 16, 2012 I see your line of logic but you have to remember that we are living in an era were the MTA has to be efficient with their money. Having the train run express and cutting over-night service on the line is efficient. You are essentially cutting 15 runs on a line and replacing it with an extremely viable alternative. On top of that ridership on the 7th avenue local has not grown to the point were two lines are needed on the same corridor. People have to make due with less just like the MTA. Then those living in Central Harlem especially the new residents of yuppies and hipsters will scream at losing 24/7 service to Midtown Dantransit. 148th and 145th street are not that heavily utilized there is no need for 24/7 train service at these stations. Those people could take the M7 or the M102 to 135th street and wait for the . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortline Bus Posted January 16, 2012 Share #31 Posted January 16, 2012 148th and 145th street are not that heavily utilized there is no need for 24/7 train service at these stations. Those people could take the M7 or the M102 to 135th street and wait for the . Dan 1 problem. This is a service cut. The M7 and M102 run each every hour overnights(30 minutes along Lenox between 125th and 148th)while the current shuttle between Times Sq and 148 is every 20 minutes. Again Central Harlem resident will scream at this 'cut' particuarly on cold and or snowy weather nights. In that case, leaving the current overnight is better. Down the road when the economy is better, the best solution is running the express and overnight service IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanTheTransitMan Posted January 16, 2012 Share #32 Posted January 16, 2012 Dan 1 problem. This is a service cut. The M7 and M102 run each every hour overnights(30 minutes along Lenox between 125th and 148th)while the current shuttle between Times Sq and 148 is every 20 minutes. Again Central Harlem resident will scream at this 'cut' particuarly on cold and or snowy weather nights. In that case, leaving the current overnight is better. Down the road when the economy is better, the best solution is running the express and overnight service IMO. Well I guess we have different opinions on to how fix this issue, I took the more conservative path while you have taken the more generous path. I think that both plans have their own merit and it was nice discussing this issue with a level headed person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTimer Posted January 17, 2012 Share #33 Posted January 17, 2012 The shuttle bus was fine for years. Politics was what got the to run overnight, and it was interesting that during the latest rounds of service cuts, cutting that overnight and having the shuttle bus return, and eliminating the jobs was not officially considered (probably tossed around the back room, but never was on the table), even with the cost of gas then (which was higher than now, but still there are hybrid and CNG buses around). Even on snowy plan 4 nights, the bus can serve decently being that it's running on main streets. I am always against ideas that decrease the flexibility of interlockings, and any idea where a service would share a terminal with another when one normally doesn't do so (in this case the and sharing SF) serves no purpose whatsoever. ATS and the real-time countdown clocks have taken much of the guesswork out of late night travel in the IRT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted January 17, 2012 Share #34 Posted January 17, 2012 The shuttle bus was fine for years. Press Release "The return of around-the- clock 3 train service means people will no longer be forced to wait outside in the heat and humidity or the cold and snow for a shuttle to bring them home. It also means that those who commute late at night or early in the morning will have access to the same level of service as those who work day-time hours" Press Release This service change will ease congestion on Bronx-bound 2 trains, reduce waiting time for 2 and 3 customers, and accommodate the ridership growth at Harlem-148th Street and projected growth in Harlem in general. Guess adding more service on the would be unfair to the uniform 20 minute headway policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Far Rock Depot Posted January 17, 2012 Share #35 Posted January 17, 2012 Gotta throw in my 2 cents when it comes to the Rockaways part of this discussion. in the 90s, ridership demands finally convinced the MTA to provide 24/7 service to Far Rockaway. Those numbers really hasn't dropped to restore the former pattern so theres no way shutting down those stations overnight will ever happen. And Yeah, Rock Pk has the leasr used station in the system (Beach 105 St-Seaside), but everyone seems to forget one thing, the MTA will always have some sort of near-by service to where they cover. Sure, theres the Q113 thru 5-Towns to Jamaica and the Q35 from Rock Park to Flatbush Jct. But theres no overnight Cross Bay Service nor cross-Rockaway service to get to those 2 route without the A/S. the Q22 does not run between 1am and 5am BECAUSE the subway is there. The Shuttle could have 0 riders and it will still run overnights as long as there is no alternative. and theres always atleast one person during each trip. I believe that the MTA should take the lowest third or fourth of stations in terms of overnight ridership and remove the station agents from them during the overnight hours. With the exception of the Rockaway Park , there should be no overnight service removals from any stations (though half hourly headways on the might work) If they really want to keep the Rock Park , how about making it a really large headway (45min?) so that only one set is necessary? I am sure the masterplan of the for their ongoing and next contract with the TWU will be a plan like that you mentioned Amtrak. Thus just install tv montiors and have frequent NYPD Transit patrols at those affected stations as well. Regarding the Rock Park one idea is I would run it every hour and extend it to Euclid between 2-5am. That way riders on the Rockaway Pensuila can wait and transfer at Euclid which is warm and underground during colder weather. To run hourly with one set the one way time plus layover has to be < 30min. Euclid is past that, Rockaway Bl would work but it's hard to turn there. How about Howard Beach? Actually Howard Beach could work as at least that station is 'modern' and climate control from a fairly recent station upgrade 10 years ago when the airtrain started. Not sure of the track layout though for it to work. As I stated above, as long as theres no alternative, the shuttle will run overnights. As to where its northern terminal should be, as a matter of fact, the MTAs cold weather plan extends the Rock Pk shuttle to Euclid. For all the regular cold winter nights, they installed passenger operated heat lamps at 2 locations on the s/b platform near the stairs. Having it end and turn at JFK may seem logical on paper, but theres 3 factors that show otherwise: 1) shuttle trains use to end at Broad Channel and run oos to the n/b middle track for lay-up and turn around. They simplified the operation about a decade ago by installing an approx. 650' lay-up track just north of Broad Channel. It has actually improved on-time departure from Broad Channel. 2) the crossover tracks at JFK are south of the station. turning trains would require unnecessary moves. And that cross over has since been reconfigured. 3) theres almost zero demand for direct JFK service from Rock Park. And it would also put operations back to where it was. (see 1) ok. that was 10 cents. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted January 17, 2012 Share #36 Posted January 17, 2012 In that case, leaving the current overnight is better. Down the road when the economy is better, the best solution is running the express and overnight service IMO. I like that idea, with the joining the as locals to South Ferry OR perhaps a scenario where the is a local overnights, but goes to New Lots 24/7 while the is shortened to terminate at Atlantic Avenue during overnights like it used to in middays (except late Friday and Saturday overnights where it would continue to Utica Avenue as an express in Brooklyn). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortline Bus Posted January 17, 2012 Share #37 Posted January 17, 2012 On your overnight suggestion. Then riders at eastern pwy stations between Utica and Atlantic would get angry. There no need for '2' 7th Ave routes overnights. The current in Brooklyn set-up works fine Wallyhorse as riders have a direct train to either the Lex/East Side or West Side. With Two Timer I normally agree with you. However overnights the trains are running (in theory)every 20 minutes so congestion issues if the ran to South Ferry should not be an issue. That a better location IMO then the current terminal at 42nd/Times Sq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTimer Posted January 17, 2012 Share #38 Posted January 17, 2012 What always got me is the railfan insistance that the longer lines must run express at night for no other reason than the fact that they're long (whether its the ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I love NY Posted January 17, 2012 Share #39 Posted January 17, 2012 I doubt you been on it but playing devil's adovcate VG8 what about the Rockaway Park(S) shuttle? I seen firsthand on trips during non-summer *No body riding it between 1-5am running at 20 minute headways. Sort of like you proposing bringing back Sunday X27/28 service when hardly anyone rode it. In end the instead of closing stations will just (already started at several stations including 18th St and all of the Dyre Ave stations)is just have no station agents during overnights at the lightly used ones. I thought that all the stations of the subway had at least 1 token booth open 24/7. Beyond the 18th St station and the Dyre Ave stations, are there other stations without station agents during overnight ? What about the Rockaway stations, for example ? Have them the 24 hours booths ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted January 17, 2012 Share #40 Posted January 17, 2012 On your overnight suggestion. Then riders at eastern pwy stations between Utica and Atlantic would get angry. There no need for '2' 7th Ave routes overnights. The current in Brooklyn set-up works fine Wallyhorse as riders have a direct train to either the Lex/East Side or West Side. With Two Timer I normally agree with you. However overnights the trains are running (in theory)every 20 minutes so congestion issues if the ran to South Ferry should not be an issue. That a better location IMO then the current terminal at 42nd/Times Sq. That's why I said except Friday and Saturday nights (early Saturday and Sunday), when the would run express from Atlantic-Utica Avenues in addition to having the go to New Lots. The other setup would be for late Sunday-Thursday (early Monday-Friday) only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N6 Limited Posted January 17, 2012 Share #41 Posted January 17, 2012 What always got me is the railfan insistance that the longer lines must run express at night for no other reason than the fact that they're long (whether its the ) I think the F should continue to run express at night, most riders have to catch a bus at the end of the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lance25 Posted January 17, 2012 Share #42 Posted January 17, 2012 The only reason the runs express is because the much-shorter runs local. @Shortline Bus, Wallyhorse: Is anyone really clamoring for the to be extended to South Ferry? That is the question that is never answered. It's always extend this, extend that, but why? The only reason the runs to Times Square at all during the overnight hours is because of the abysmal headways on the former shuttle bus route and 135 St is an absolutely terrible place to turn trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanTheTransitMan Posted January 17, 2012 Share #43 Posted January 17, 2012 The only reason the runs express is because the much-shorter runs local. Well with that logic the ,, and should run express because the shorter , , and trains run local. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shortline Bus Posted January 18, 2012 Share #44 Posted January 18, 2012 The only reason the runs express is because the much-shorter runs local. @Shortline Bus, Wallyhorse: Is anyone really clamoring for the to be extended to South Ferry? That is the question that is never answered. It's always extend this, extend that, but why? The only reason the runs to Times Square at all during the overnight hours is because of the abysmal headways on the former shuttle bus route and 135 St is an absolutely terrible place to turn trains. Lance. If it were up to me, the Upper Lenox stations at 145th and 148th would still have the shuttle bus running every 10 minutes along w/ the (M7) (M102). However barring dire service cuts, due to politics, the overnight Manhattan service is here to stay. I was only suggesting extend the run via local to South Ferry so that the very long could run 'express' in Manhattan barring G/O's 24/7. Plus it maintains 10-minute(in theory)headways at the Bway/7th Ave local stations overnights along the entire route. And Wally the needs to run to Utica/New Lots 24/7. Terminating at Atlantic is a terrible idea. Then the will be SRO which sometimes the is. Not to mention don't you understand the current overnight setup maintains lex and 7th Ave service 24/7 along the Eastern Pwy line. Oh that right Wallyhorse mind is made up.:eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatOne2k Posted January 18, 2012 Share #45 Posted January 18, 2012 to 149 Street late nights should have a pilot program. MTA sometimes does this already (cold weather plans, E 180 St construction), although there may have to be some workarounds with the worktrains at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted January 18, 2012 Share #46 Posted January 18, 2012 Lance. If it were up to me, the Upper Lenox stations at 145th and 148th would still have the shuttle bus running every 10 minutes along w/ the (M7) (M102). However barring dire service cuts, due to politics, the overnight Manhattan service is here to stay. I was only suggesting extend the run via local to South Ferry so that the very long could run 'express' in Manhattan barring G/O's 24/7. Plus it maintains 10-minute(in theory)headways at the Bway/7th Ave local stations overnights along the entire route. And Wally the needs to run to Utica/New Lots 24/7. Terminating at Atlantic is a terrible idea. Then the will be SRO which sometimes the is. Not to mention don't you understand the current overnight setup maintains lex and 7th Ave service 24/7 along the Eastern Pwy line. Oh that right Wallyhorse mind is made up.:eek: Not at all: If the really is that SRO, then I would be looking to have it where the goes to New Lots and the goes to Utica 24/7. My main thoughts were if you were going to have the run further down the Broadway-7th Avenue line in Manhattan overnights, it would make more sense to me to have it run to New Lots at all times rather than have the join the to South Ferry overnights. Obviously, the is needed to at least Utica overnights, but perhaps, and especially if funds do become available and more immediately with the Barclays Center about to open it may be time to seriously look at having both the and operate their full routes 24/7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fresh Pond Posted January 18, 2012 Share #47 Posted January 18, 2012 Not at all: If the really is that SRO, then I would be looking to have it where the goes to New Lots and the goes to Utica 24/7. My main thoughts were if you were going to have the run further down the Broadway-7th Avenue line in Manhattan overnights, it would make more sense to me to have it run to New Lots at all times rather than have the join the to South Ferry overnights. Obviously, the is needed to at least Utica overnights, but perhaps, and especially if funds do become available and more immediately with the Barclays Center about to open it may be time to seriously look at having both the and operate their full routes 24/7. There's no need for 2 westside local trains at night as there's no need for an express at night. An eastside and a westside local late at nights works perfectly well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted January 18, 2012 Share #48 Posted January 18, 2012 Yes, but if there is enough increased ridership to have the operate as an express to Flatbush and have the join the as locals between 96th and Chambers, then that, coupled with having the go to Utica as it currently does outside of overnights makes perfect sense to me as that would take care of a lot of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoTimer Posted January 18, 2012 Share #49 Posted January 18, 2012 And what issues are these? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallyhorse Posted January 18, 2012 Share #50 Posted January 18, 2012 And what issues are these? What others have pointed out about the being SRO in the overnights at times and the need some feel for the to be an express in Manhattan during the overnights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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