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BrooklynBus

Better transit is up to the people (Bus only chat please)

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LOL... It's not just the (MTA) that has an arrogant attitude. You have some folks who work for the (MTA) that are arrogant as well. This sense of "if it isn't broken then don't fix it attitude" is a HUGE problem. The only way to fix it is to do a complete overhaul of the agency from top to bottom. A perfect example of the arrogance is some B/Os being annoyed with the bus tracking system. The system was implemented partially to improve bus service and yet some of them have tried to disable the tracking devices. Why???

 

From my two years of interning at the (MTA) as a high school student, I have to agree with you that the more you move up the less you do. My second summer interning was a joke. My boss did absolutely nothing except for dish out assignments to me and others to do while he put his feet up and relaxed in his office. Until this sort of behavior is discouraged, not too much will change at the (MTA). Don't get me wrong, the atmosphere was a very laid back one and that's not a bad thing, but more should be expected from the workers, particularly the ones in the office.

 

As for the express bus comment about Williamsburg and Borough Park the (MTA) like others here see express buses as a waste overall, yet as you point out both communities have express bus service not provided by the (MTA) and are doing just fine.

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LOL... It's not just the (MTA) that has an arrogant attitude. You have some folks who work for the (MTA) that are arrogant as well. This sense of "if it isn't broken then don't fix it attitude" is a HUGE problem. The only way to fix it is to do a complete overhaul of the agency from top to bottom. A perfect example of the arrogance is some B/Os being annoyed with the bus tracking system. The system was implemented partially to improve bus service and yet some of them have tried to disable the tracking devices. Why???

 

From my two years of interning at the (MTA) as a high school student, I have to agree with you that the more you move up the less you do. My second summer interning was a joke. My boss did absolutely nothing except for dish out assignments to me and others to do while he put his feet up and relaxed in his office. Until this sort of behavior is discouraged, not too much will change at the (MTA). Don't get me wrong, the atmosphere was a very laid back one and that's not a bad thing, but more should be expected from the workers, particularly the ones in the office.

 

As for the express bus comment about Williamsburg and Borough Park the (MTA) like others here see express buses as a waste overall, yet as you point out both communities have express bus service not provided by the (MTA) and are doing just fine.

 

They are trying to disable them because they want to goof off and don't want the MTA to know about it. Hope this still doesn't happen but there were stories in the 1980s that some of the overnight guys never made their runs. They just slept somewhere.

 

The picture you paint of office workers from your experience is not really fair. It's not typical of office workers at the MTA, while your observation of a lax atmosphere is pretty widespread, although it works at places like Google and 3M. Lax isn't necessarily bad; not doing any work at all is bad. Some savvy managers know just the right amount of work that will get them by. Others do earn their pay. Then there are the workaholics that work 12 hours a day for 7 hours pay.

 

Yes, a lot of internal changes need to be done but the right changes require a lot of work. It's easier just to cut a whole bus route or an entire project than take the time to remove only the redundant or unnecessary elements and keep the good parts. My experience has been that the MTA always takes the easy way out in such situations.

 

This is the type of efficiency no one ever talks about except me.

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They are trying to disable them because they want to goof off and don't want the MTA to know about it. Hope this still doesn't happen but there were stories in the 1980s that some of the overnight guys never made their runs. They just slept somewhere.

 

The picture you paint of office workers from your experience is not really fair. It's not typical of office workers at the MTA, while your observation of a lax atmosphere is pretty widespread, although it works at places like Google and 3M. Lax isn't necessarily bad; not doing any work at all is bad. Some savvy managers know just the right amount of work that will get them by. Others do earn their pay. Then there are the workaholics that work 12 hours a day for 7 hours pay.

 

Yes, a lot of internal changes need to be done but the right changes require a lot of work. It's easier just to cut a whole bus route or an entire project than take the time to remove only the redundant or unnecessary elements and keep the good parts. My experience has been that the MTA always takes the easy way out in such situations.

 

This is the type of efficiency no one ever talks about except me.

 

 

Well yes, you're right it's not a fair representation. My first boss was a very diligent worker, as was the department overall. They had me work on different things like data entry and so on which was a great learning experience just to get my feet wet and such.

 

Both internships were down at 330 Jay Street too. Do they still have those cool dudes that come around with the snack carts in the afternoons?? :cool:

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As for the express bus comment about Williamsburg and Borough Park the (MTA) like others here see express buses as a waste overall, yet as you point out both communities have express bus service not provided by the (MTA) and are doing just fine.

 

That's not an express bus. That's the B110, which charges $2.50 per trip and doesn't accept transfers (I don't know if it accepts Unlimited MetroCards). It has absolutely nothing to do with the buses that cost $5.50 and use coach buses.

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Well yes, you're right it's not a fair representation. My first boss was a very diligent worker, as was the department overall. They had me work on different things like data entry and so on which was a great learning experience just to get my feet wet and such.

 

Both internships were down at 330 Jay Street too. Do they still have those cool dudes that come around with the snack carts in the afternoons?? :cool:

 

That was 370 Jay Street and it is no longer in use. Don't believe there are any snack carts at the other locations. They were replaced by vending machines on each floor at least at 130 Livingston.

 

That's not an express bus. That's the B110, which charges $2.50 per trip and doesn't accept transfers (I don't know if it accepts Unlimited MetroCards). It has absolutely nothing to do with the buses that cost $5.50 and use coach buses.

 

It's an express bus in the sense it uses a highway and not local streets to connect the two neignhborhoods (can use local streets if the BQE is congested), but not an express bus by the fact one end is not in Manhattan and doesn't charge $5.50. Does not accept MetroCards of any type. Probably accepts dollar bills. Don't think there is any half fare either.

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That's not an express bus. That's the B110, which charges $2.50 per trip and doesn't accept transfers (I don't know if it accepts Unlimited MetroCards). It has absolutely nothing to do with the buses that cost $5.50 and use coach buses.

 

Oh please... I know what they are. I've seen them before on 5th Avenue. It functions like an express bus, which is the point. Express buses provide service to Manhattan, which is exactly what these buses do, albeit cheaper. The point was that the (MTA) could provide the service.

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The articles I'll read later on.... But as far as this side discussion.....

 

 

When the MTA told Williamsburg and Borough Park in the 1970s that there was no market for an express bus route between those communities

 

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2012/02/the-will-of-the-people-%e2%80%93-part-1/

This is referencing the B110.... with that said:

 

 

It's an express bus in the sense it uses a highway and not local streets to connect the two neignhborhoods (can use local streets if the BQE is congested), but not an express bus by the fact one end is not in Manhattan and doesn't charge $5.50.

The B110 isn't anymore of an express bus than the B103 is....

So it (the 110) uses a highway, yeah, just like the B103.... I don't hear anyone considering/calling that route an express.....

 

 

Oh please... I know what they are. I've seen them before on 5th Avenue. It functions like an express bus, which is the point.

lol.... nah man, he got you on this one....

 

The service you're talking about that uses 5th (I've seen them also, don't know what they're called) utilized mainly by Jewish people, and the service that runs between williamsburg & borough park (the B110) aren't close to being similar.....

 

confusing that service (those ones that run in manhattan) for the B110 is like confusing the B103 for the BM2....

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The articles I'll read later on.... But as far as this side discussion.....

 

 

 

This is referencing the B110.... with that said:

 

 

 

The B110 isn't anymore of an express bus than the B103 is....

So it (the 110) uses a highway, yeah, just like the B103.... I don't hear anyone considering/calling that route an express.....

 

 

 

lol.... nah man, he got you on this one....

 

The service you're talking about that uses 5th (I've seen them also, don't know what they're called) utilized mainly by Jewish people, and the service that runs between williamsburg & borough park (the B110) aren't close to being similar.....

 

confusing that service (those ones that run in manhattan) for the B110 is like confusing the B103 for the BM2....

 

Okay, then someone clarify where in the hell these buses run... From where to where and so on because it sure as hell isn't clear from the article. The article calls them express buses so I thought he was referring to those buses on 5th Avenue. :(

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Okay, then someone clarify where in the hell these buses run... From where to where and so on because it sure as hell isn't clear from the article. The article calls them express buses so I thought he was referring to those buses on 5th Avenue. :(

 

That excerpt was misleading.... No rebuttal from me on that one.

 

I get that you were basing your commentary from the article; which is why I posted that snippet from it.... all checkmate did was point out that route (currently going b/w those two communities) being the 110..... he wasn't nitpicking (judging by you tellin him "oh please..."... lol).... Gotta be careful what you're co-signing if you're not too sure about it....

 

As per your question, Q101 E. Midtown is good with things like that; about knowing where all the private routes go... maybe he'll chime in, because I don't know where those buses go (the ones that actually travel in manhattan, like you brought up) to/from either....

 

What I wanna know is, when was there ever a time that an intraborough express route proposed between those two communities.....

Or is this simply nothing more than a case of double entendre w/ the word "express"....

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That excerpt was misleading.... No rebuttal from me on that one.

 

I get that you were basing your commentary from the article; which is why I posted that snippet from it.... all checkmate did was point out that route being the 110..... he wasn't nitpicking (judging by you tellin him "oh please..."... lol).... Gotta be careful what you're co-signing if you're not too sure about it....

 

As per your question, Q101 E. Midtown is good with things like that; about knowing where all the private routes go... maybe he'll chime in, because I don't know where those buses go (the ones that actually travel in manhattan, like you brought up) to/from either....

 

What I wanna know is, when was there ever a time that an intraborough express route proposed between those two communities.....

Or is this simply nothing more than a case of double entendre w/ the word "express"....

 

LOL... Are you sure you weren't a language major? Sometimes I wonder... As for checkmate, yes, he loves nitpicking... In this case it's justified... Sometimes it isn't.

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LOL... Are you sure you weren't a language major? Sometimes I wonder... As for checkmate, yes, he loves nitpicking... In this case it's justified... Sometimes it isn't.

 

I was always eloquent in my word choices (I don't like dumbing down my speech, but sometimes you just have to... especially dealing with the public... and the dumbfounded/blank looks I tend to get), and I'm big on idioms.... Don't confuse that with being a walking dictionary, hate nzzzzz like that; there is such a thing as overdoing it.... You can tell those that naturally speak with a certain level of intelligence, and those who are tryna impress somebody with verbiage.... I'm too lazy for the latter; to the point of using slang & slanting certain words (especially when I'm rhyming).....

 

my moms would tell me that I used to sit there and read the newspaper at a couple months old..... Stemming from that I guess, came my interest in being a lyricist - which expands the ole vocab, a lot of which is involuntary/not on purpose....

 

Before Shortline comes in & asks if I'd like to join him in the teachers lounge, I never took a language course outside of HS...

 

smhlol @ the checkmate comment.

Edited by B35 via Church

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I was always eloquent in my word choices (I don't like dumbing down my speech, but sometimes you just have to... especially dealing with the public... and the dumbfounded/blank looks I tend to get), and I'm big on idioms.... Don't confuse that with being a walking dictionary, hate nzzzzz like that; there is such a thing as overdoing it.... You can tell those that naturally speak with a certain level of intelligence, and those who are tryna impress somebody with verbiage.... I'm too lazy for the latter; to the point of using slang & slanting certain words (especially when I'm rhyming).....

 

my moms would tell me that I used to sit there and read the newspaper at a couple months old..... Stemming from that, came my interest in being a lyricist - which expands the ole vocab....

 

Before Shortline comes in & asks if I'd like to join him in the teachers lounge, I never took a language course outside of HS....

 

smhlol @ the checkmate comment.

 

lol... Interesting.... Well my English has been heavily influenced by the other languages that I speak. I've read a lot of Spanish and Italian literature in which writers like to be quite elegant and write real PITA, "elongated" sentences that end up being paragraphs. Aside from that I'm involved in a lot of legal translations which are tedious to read, so all of that passes down in the way in which I speak and write. I realized that the other day writing up a rider agreement... LOL When I finished it looked like something a lawyer would write. :(

 

As Shortline, "back to topic".... I think folks may very well indeed become more involved in transit if more cuts and fare hikes occur. The breaking point has to be reached at some point and I think we're almost there.

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Okay, then someone clarify where in the hell these buses run... From where to where and so on because it sure as hell isn't clear from the article. The article calls them express buses so I thought he was referring to those buses on 5th Avenue. :(
mostly on the ft hamilton parkway corridor then prospect expressway to BQE then williamsburg ask the jews of that neighborhood for routing beyond that I can't help

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lol... Interesting.... Well my English has been heavily influenced by the other languages that I speak. I've read a lot of Spanish and Italian literature in which writers like to be quite elegant and write real PITA, "elongated" sentences that end up being paragraphs. Aside from that I'm involved in a lot of legal translations which are tedious to read, so all of that passes down in the way in which I speak and write. I realized that the other day writing up a rider agreement... LOL When I finished it looked like something a lawyer would write. :(

 

As Shortline (would say), "back to topic"....

 

I think folks may very well indeed become more involved in transit if more cuts and fare hikes occur. The breaking point has to be reached at some point and I think we're almost there.

 

Agreed.... and I'll go as far as to say, they're gonna have to become more involved... At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think the tipping point will be reached when the average (well, namely, "their") bus route(s) become elongated, with less service to match..... and the subways becoming more disgusting, on top of the trains themselves being dangerously overcrowded (like, in Japan).... all, while raising the base fare to somethin like 4 bucks a ride, is where you'll start seeing mini-marches/riots in this city, IMO.... and rightfully so.

 

NYC is far too dependent on public transportation, to simply tell people "walk", "take a cab", "bike it out", or my personal favorite "get a car"....

 

Give me a couple thou', clear out all the gridlock & ever growing traffic in this city, and I'll consider getting a car... otherwise, those elitists can kick rocks & continue engaging in their anti-public transit agenda I care NOTs to want be subjected to having to listen to.....

 

I wanna pa-bee-bee-bee-bee-beep my ass home from work like george jetson does too !

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Agreed.... and I'll go as far as to say, they're gonna have to become more involved... At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think the tipping point will be reached when the average (well, namely, "their") bus route(s) become elongated, with less service to match..... and the subways becoming more disgusting, on top of the trains themselves being dangerously overcrowded (like, in Japan).... all, while raising the base fare to somethin like 4 bucks a ride, is where you'll start seeing mini-marches/riots in this city, IMO.... and rightfully so.

 

NYC is far too dependent on public transportation, to simply tell people "walk", "take a cab", "bike it out", or my personal favorite "get a car"....

 

Give me a couple thou', clear out all the gridlock & ever growing traffic in this city, and I'll consider getting a car... otherwise, those elitists can kick rocks & continue engaging in their anti-public transit agenda I care NOTs to want be subjected to having to listen to.....

 

I wanna pa-bee-bee-bee-bee-beep my ass home from work like george jetson does too !

 

I agree... I couldn't imagine having to drive into work and then drive home... More added stress... Much easier to relax on the express bus and get a nap, even on the weekends. With all of the pot holes and craters I see around the city, I am sure my car would be in the shop for repairs every time I turned around. I'd rather spend my money elsewhere. Using the express bus easily saves me a good $800.00 a month in transit, and that's being modest.

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Agreed.... and I'll go as far as to say, they're gonna have to become more involved... At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think the tipping point will be reached when the average (well, namely, "their") bus route(s) become elongated, with less service to match..... and the subways becoming more disgusting, on top of the trains themselves being dangerously overcrowded (like, in Japan).... all, while raising the base fare to somethin like 4 bucks a ride, is where you'll start seeing mini-marches/riots in this city, IMO.... and rightfully so.

 

NYC is far too dependent on public transportation, to simply tell people "walk", "take a cab", "bike it out", or my personal favorite "get a car"....

 

Give me a couple thou', clear out all the gridlock & ever growing traffic in this city, and I'll consider getting a car... otherwise, those elitists can kick rocks & continue engaging in their anti-public transit agenda I care NOTs to want be subjected to having to listen to.....

I wanna pa-bee-bee-bee-bee-beep my ass home from work like george jetson does too !

 

something I would say

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The Department of tools Transportation is tinkering with traffic lights so that it seems that no more than two in a row are green, slowing everyone down, and on top of that, they took a lane out of the Franny Lew in Southern Queens for a bike lane I've never seen any more than one person in. I know; I used to bike through there in 2010. These bike lanes are only pissing people off, on top of bikers being butthurt that a driver "didn't share the road." This is the case especially with buses vs. bikers with stops that are across lanes... 40 tons of steel vs. some underweight-by-70-pounds scrub on a bike with a pencil-thin frame.... and you're the one who gets bent out of shape because the bus operator didn't yield to you? Get the hell off the road....

 

 

This is not a bike-friendly city - either your street is too narrow for you to ride on the road without being in danger of clipping something or you have too many commercial vehicles on a road that really shouldn't have had a lane installed in the first place. I'm tired of the hipsters thinking they're so cool for not paying $2.25 and riding through crappy weather and on crappy roads hounding the DOT to make more bike-friendly roads.

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That's not an express bus. That's the B110, which charges $2.50 per trip and doesn't accept transfers (I don't know if it accepts Unlimited MetroCards). It has absolutely nothing to do with the buses that cost $5.50 and use coach buses.

 

I meant to say Pay-Per-Ride MetroCards in case this confused anybody.

 

Oh please... I know what they are. I've seen them before on 5th Avenue. It functions like an express bus, which is the point. Express buses provide service to Manhattan, which is exactly what these buses do, albeit cheaper. The point was that the (MTA) could provide the service.

 

Unless those hipsters have somehow changed the names of the neighborhoods, I don't think there's a Williamsburg or Borough Park in Manhattan. :P

 

B35 pretty much said everything else I wanted to say in regards to that comment.

 

Before Shortline comes in & asks if I'd like to join him in the teachers lounge, I never took a language course outside of HS...

 

 

A while back, you made a comment on my misuse of the word "bitte". I assume you took German in high school rather than (or in addition to) Spanish (which is the most common language offered in HS)

 

This is not a bike-friendly city - either your street is too narrow for you to ride on the road without being in danger of clipping something or you have too many commercial vehicles on a road that really shouldn't have had a lane installed in the first place. I'm tired of the hipsters thinking they're so cool for not paying $2.25 and riding through crappy weather and on crappy roads hounding the DOT to make more bike-friendly roads.

 

I don't think the hipsters are really coming all the way out to that area of Queens. I mean, they usually go to the areas close to Manhattan, and the areas along Francis Lewis Blvd don't even have subway service.

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Unless those hipsters have somehow changed the names of the neighborhoods, I don't think there's a Williamsburg or Borough Park in Manhattan. :P

 

B35 pretty much said everything else I wanted to say in regards to that comment.

 

Like I said, I was going off of what the article said, so take that up w/Brooklyn Bus not me. ;)

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Like I said, I was going off of what the article said, so take that up w/Brooklyn Bus not me. :)

 

There is no argument here. I referred to the B110 as an express bus because that's what it is. It makes stops on both ends and uses the highway in between. There is nothing in the definition of express bus that says one end has to be in Manattan and no others could exist. It's just that in recent years all the express buses except the B110 have one end in Manhattan but that doesn't mean it always has to be that way. There once used to express buses from the racetracks to various points in the city and the World's Fair Express buses to although he term was not in use back then.

 

In fact, the term limited stop buses was created so as not to confuse them with existing express buses. If there were no express buses, then limited stop buses would have been called express buses. Express subways are no different than limited stop buses.

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A while back, you made a comment on my misuse of the word "bitte". I assume you took German in high school rather than (or in addition to) Spanish (which is the most common language offered in HS)

I had to take french or spanish to graduate.... german was optional (since my uncle, who's a vietnam vet, taught me a couple phrases when I was younger, I took the class for the hell of it....)

 

Never got a grade for it, b/c the class was cancelled due to there only being 3 other students in it..... same thing happened in my AP physics class (there was 20 somethin kids on the attendance sheet, and it was only 3 of us that came regularly (me, this asian kid I was cool with, and some other kid neither one of us knew).....

 

 

There is no argument here. I referred to the B110 as an express bus because that's what it is. It makes stops on both ends and uses the highway in between. There is nothing in the definition of express bus that says one end has to be in Manattan and no others could exist. It's just that in recent years all the express buses except the B110 have one end in Manhattan but that doesn't mean it always has to be that way. There once used to express buses from the racetracks to various points in the city and the World's Fair Express buses to although he term was not in use back then.

 

In fact, the term limited stop buses was created so as not to confuse them with existing express buses. If there were no express buses, then limited stop buses would have been called express buses. Express subways are no different than limited stop buses.

 

Way to save face... one problem though....

 

Since you wanna get technical, there aint no definition stating intra-borough buses that use highways are express buses either.... and "express subways" being no different than LTD buses has squat to do with the B110 not being an express bus....

 

If there were no express buses, then limited stop buses would have been called express buses.

Says who....

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I would like to respond by providing some history concerning the TA's operation of express routes and to respond concerning public participation in the planning process.

 

The first TA express route from Staten Island was started after the Verrazano Bridge was opened in 1964. It was the 8X and it ran from Port Richmond Square to Downtown Brooklyn. the route followed the S/7 (now S/53) route and then via the SIE and the Gowanus to Atlantic Avenue. There was one trip

to Brooklyn in the morning and a round trip in the afternoon rush period. It was eliminated either in the 1970's or early 1980's (I am not sure).

 

The first limited route (within a route) was the S/7 (now S/53) that operated from Victory Boulevard and Clove Road via the Staten Island Community College (now Petrides school) to Brooklyn and began in September 1968. It operated via the SIE after Richmond Road and made local stops in Brooklyn. This route was merged into the S/93 after the college was moved.

.

The first TA Staten Island - Manhattan express route was the 9/X operating from New Dorp to Manhattan began in December 1968. At that time Domenico Bus Company was operating a similar route via Clove Road and New Jersey and the TA route was not in competition as it operated via Brooklyn (Gowanus) and Lower Manhattan. The buses were New Look 8922 - 8933 which were part of the 8800-8933 series. The route was extremely successful from the beginning and many of the buses from that series were converted from local to express service to provide the service. This proves that the TA supported this service and nurtured it.

 

At that time all bus franchises had to be approved by the New York City Board of Estimate which consisted of the Mayor, Council President, Comptroller and the five borough presidents. In addition there was a Bureau of Franchises under the Board of Estimate that had sole authority over the designation of routes. The franchise term was usually for 99 years except in this case where politics intervened and the franchise awarded for the Staten Island TA express routes was for one year only and had to be renewed every ear. This did not change until the New York City charter was amended by the voters (after the Baord of Estimate was found to be unconstitutional under the one man, one vote provision) and the Board of Estimate was abolished along with the Bureau of Franchises.

 

The reference to the the late Stephen Dobrow is appreciated as I worked with him on the recommendations for improvement of Bus Service on Staten Island in 1976. Needless to say this (and the other borough recommendations) was another one where the TA disregarded the information and presented did their own surveys (and had to do it twice) and presented their own report. The report for Brooklyn was ignored and the response was the Southwest Brooklyn Bus Changes of November 1978.

 

I can understand the need for public involvement having been involved as a rider of multiple bus and/or subway routes every day for many years or writing and speaking at meetings for most of my career, The reality is, however, it will never happen as the agency (like most governmental agencies) is (and will always be) insulated from the public as that is how it was designed to be under the law. To understand why, read any book on public administration and the role of the bureaucracy which will clearly define the public's involvement in government.

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Since you wanna get technical, there aint no definition stating intra-borough buses that use highways are express buses either.... and "express subways" being no different than LTD buses has squat to do with the B110 not being an express bus......

 

Actually, there is as Interested Rider reminds me with the case of the R8X which was officially an express bus that did not enter Manhattan. (Few people know that the 8X was operated to get NYCTA riders from their home in Staten Island to their offices at 370 Jay Street where the bus terminated. That's why there was only one round trip a day.)

 

It really isn't worth arguing over. So fine if you don't want to consider the B110 an express bus. But you can't really consider it a true local either. It really is in a class by itself unless you want to lump it with the B83 which uses a parkway for three minutes.*

 

If the term "limited stop" for buses was not invented because we already had express buses and there would have been too much confusion using the same term, then tell me why weren't express subways referred to as limited stop subways since they operate more like limited stop buses than they do express buses.

 

I would like to respond by providing some history concerning the TA's operation of express routes and to respond concerning public participation in the planning process.

 

The first TA express route from Staten Island was started after the Verrazano Bridge was opened in 1964. It was the 8X and it ran from Port Richmond Square to Downtown Brooklyn. the route followed the S/7 (now S/53) route and then via the SIE and the Gowanus to Atlantic Avenue. There was one trip

to Brooklyn in the morning and a round trip in the afternoon rush period. It was eliminated either in the 1970's or early 1980's

 

The reference to the the late Stephen Dobrow is appreciated as I worked with him on the recommendations for improvement of Bus Service on Staten Island in 1976. Needless to say this (and the other borough recommendations) was another one where the TA disregarded the information and presented did their own surveys (and had to do it twice) and presented their own report. The report for Brooklyn was ignored and the response was the Southwest Brooklyn Bus Changes of November 1978.

 

 

Just a few corrections. The MTA's Staten Island's report was not in response to Steve Dobrow's report and neither was the Southwest Brooklyn 1978 changes in response to Steve's Brooklyn report. For the record, the Department of City Planning had applied for and received $200,000 in federal money in 1973 to study transportation. When they hired me, since I had just completed my Masters on Brooklyn buses, they decided to use the money to study Brooklyn local buses. As we soon found out, there wasn't nearly enough finding to do that so I was asked to scale down the study, so I picked the 86th Street corridor. The people at the NYCTA told us to expand the study again just to delay and sabotage it. Not knowing that at the time we expanded it to Southwest Brooklyn.

 

After 4 years of stalling, they told us the study had grown too large after we were just following their suggestion. After a lawsuit was filed by an environmental group, they finally agreed to make some changes (about 25% of what was recommended) but were so pissed that they had to listen to another agency, they vowed it would never happen again and it didn't. They then applied for the remaining federal monies to study all the other boroughs and then wasted it by only making two changes in Staten Island as a result.

 

Steve's Staten Island report had nothing to do with the MTA's report unless they used some of the findings which I do not know is the case. Steve's Brooklyn report was not issued until 1981, if I correctly recall so the 1978 changes could not have been a response to it. While I greatly admired his knowledge, and also later worked with him, the Brooklyn report was not all that good. In some cases someone just looked at a map and drew lines where they thought it would be nice to have a bus route. One I remember was a through route along the length of Rockaway Parkway, although it would not have even been possible without an underpass beneath the LIRR tracks north of Foster Avenue.

 

He does deserve much credit, however to be the first one to publicly cite the need to revamp New York City's local bus routes and to call for bus transfers between all bus routes and to the subway.

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Actually, there is as Interested Rider reminds me with the case of the R8X which was officially an express bus that did not enter Manhattan. (Few people know that the 8X was operated to get NYCTA riders from their home in Staten Island to their offices at 370 Jay Street where the bus terminated. That's why there was only one round trip a day.)

 

It really isn't worth arguing over. So fine if you don't want to consider the B110 an express bus. But you can't really consider it a true local either. It really is in a class by itself unless you want to lump it with the B83 which uses a parkway for three minutes.*

 

If the term "limited stop" for buses was not invented because we already had express buses and there would have been too much confusion using the same term, then tell me why weren't express subways referred to as limited stop subways since they operate more like limited stop buses than they do express buses.

Actually not, actually.... that doesn't make it a definition....

 

You say this isn't worth arguing over... I agree, because the assertion presented is flat out false.

and it isn't about "what I consider" either....

 

No one's doubting that routes like the B103 & the B110 are in a class by itself...

 

Problem is, you are saying the 110 is an express bus "because that's what it is".... If that's the case, then you may as well dump the B103's & the 110's of the world in with the BM1's, X1's, QM1's, and BxM1's of the world.... those are express buses too....

 

As for your last paragraph, use all the deductive reasoning you'd like....

(you) Saying that if there were no express buses, limited's would have been called expresses, is not fact....

Edited by B35 via Church

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