NICE Planned Service/Schedule Changes

[B35 via Church]

from the newsday article linked above:

 

 

....Among them was Sherril Fraser, whose commute from her Brooklyn home to her housekeeping job in Old Bethpage takes about four hours each way and includes rides on two buses, a subway and the Long Island Rail Road. “If I had to take a taxi, do you know how much [it would cost] to get to there?” Fraser asked. “It’s too much.”

Four hours each way? Where the hell in Brooklyn does this lady live & how much of that time is being spent on waiting......

[JAzumah]

I found that to be odd as well, but I once had a commute from Brooklyn to New Rochelle on public transit. It was worth it for me, but it was for a short period of time.

​There is a rumor going around that the N19 and N78/79 have already been taken off the table. That is very good for the network as a whole. I have run the numbers on most of the other routes and it is very difficult to justify.

[mac5689]

from the newsday article linked above:

 

Four hours each way? Where the hell in Brooklyn does this lady live & how much of that time is being spent on waiting......

I wouldn't be surprised if whoever wrote the article made a mistake and wrote four hours each way when really it's like two hours each way for a total of four hours each day. Or the author of the Article thought that if the womans commute seemed longer than what it was that it was more likely that there could be help so they fudged the numbers. 

 

I should note however that since a young age I was told that Newsday wasn't the greatest so I maybe biased not to trust what they print.

[NY1635]

The n19, n57, and n78/79 have been saved from being eliminated for now. If no additional funding is found then they will be cut at a later date.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/only-3-of-10-nice-routes-facing-cuts-may-be-saved-ceo-says-1.13340356

[RtrainBlues]

They should drop the N78 and keep the N79. 

 

After dropping the N45 and N51, they may want to consider a supplementary shuttle that runs between RFM and NCC.

[67thAve]

If there's one thing that we can expect for next year, it's probably more service cuts. At this point, there are three things in life that are guaranteed: Death, taxes, and yearly NICE service cuts.

 

The real question is, however, what is there left to cut? NICE has effectively gnawed almost all the meat out the system, and they've begun to pick at the bones.

 

After five years of this consistent trimming of the network, Nassau County's system is in declining health. At the rate that ridership is draining, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the following things occur:

 

-No more service on major holidays (Christmas, for example)

-No more overnight service on the n4 or n6

-Routes that follow train lines for the majority of their distance will see heavy reductions in service, if not outright elimination. This includes the following:

• n4 (I don't see complete elimination, of course, but perhaps no more n4x service?)
• n19 (complete elimination in next round of service cuts is almost certainly going to happen)
• n22 (Not really certain here... no more express service, perhaps reduced service beyond RFM?)
• n23 south of Roslyn (very difficult for me to see any more cuts here, but NICE will find a way to do something, no matter how unexpected)
• n24 (Certainly not elimination, maybe no more service on weekends past RFM)
• n27 (either complete elimination or rush-hours only)
• n31/32 (Perhaps mid-day and Saturday service is reduced to every 30 minutes?)

-If things are extremely desperate, perhaps they'd terminate all routes to/from Queens at the city line (perhaps with the exception of the n31/n32/n33, since Far Rockaway is only a few blocks in). This would probably drain ridership a lot, but it wouldn't surprise me at this point.

[FamousNYLover]

Here are shots I took at meeting:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My Petition24.com collected lots of signatures from mostly n19, n79, n33, n36, etc.

 

[FamousNYLover]

n19, and n79 bus wouldn't have weekend service.

[danielhg121]

They got emergency funding from the state to keep things from going down any further and are gonna do most of the cuts proposed right?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using NYC Transit Forums mobile app

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

So here are the new schedules for the n19, n57, and n78/79, which as stated, will run rush hours only.

 

n19: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n19_Apr2017_v2_1.pdf

n57: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n57_Apr2017_v1.pdf

n78/79: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n78n79_Apr2017_v1.pdf

 

I like to keep as much coverage as possible as a result of these service cuts, but these cuts could have been better planned, and there were more ideal candidate. The only route that's entirely untouched is the n57 (of the three). I believed that all three routes were gonna be restored entirely (not just rush hour service). I would have eliminated the n57, and had those service hours divided up so that there is also midday service on the routes.

 

At the very least, I would have eliminated the first three trips on the PM n57, and that would have gone to the n79 for a 10:45 AM trip to South Huntington (and subsequent 11:25 AM trip back to Hicksville). Another thing I would have done was to eliminate the n78, have the n79 run one bus every 90 minutes. That would also use two buses, and provide a greater amount of service during the day (although not as frequent, obviously). With eliminating the first three n57 trips, those savings would be used to provide one midday trip on the n19.

Edited March 31, 2017 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[B35 via Church]

...The real question is, however, what is there left to cut?

NICE has effectively gnawed almost all the meat out the system, and they've begun to pick at the bones....

 

 

.....If things are extremely desperate, perhaps they'd terminate all routes to/from Queens at the city line (perhaps with the exception of the n31/n32/n33, since Far Rockaway is only a few blocks in). This would probably drain ridership a lot, but it wouldn't surprise me at this point.

For the most part, I actually think they're looking to morph the bus system; similar to that of Staten Island's bus network.... Have the vast majority of the routes connect Queens (Jamaica, Flushing, Far Rock') to various parts of Nassau county - retaining very few intra-county routes.....

 

I still think there is something (else) to the acronym NICE, outside of the play on words as a marketing ploy.....

[NY1635]

So here are the new schedules for the n19, n57, and n78/79, which as stated, will run rush hours only.

 

n19: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n19_Apr2017_v2_1.pdf

n57: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n57_Apr2017_v1.pdf

n78/79: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n78n79_Apr2017_v1.pdf

 

I like to keep as much coverage as possible as a result of these service cuts, but these cuts could have been better planned, and there were more ideal candidate. The only route that's entirely untouched is the n57 (of the three). I believed that all three routes were gonna be restored entirely (not just rush hour service). I would have eliminated the n57, and had those service hours divided up so that there is also midday service on the routes.

 

At the very least, I would have eliminated the first three trips on the PM n57, and that would have gone to the n79 for a 10:45 AM trip to South Huntington (and subsequent 11:25 AM trip back to Hicksville). Another thing I would have done was to eliminate the n78, have the n79 run one bus every 90 minutes. That would also use two buses, and provide a greater amount of service during the day (although not as frequent, obviously). With eliminating the first three n57 trips, those savings would be used to provide one midday trip on the n19.

 

NICE didn't originally intend to keep the n19, n57, and n78/79 after April 9th. What caused them to change their mind were a combination of negative backlash from riders at the previous meeting and the news that NICE will receive additional funding from Albany. The rush hour service on the n19 and n78/79 was mostly due to uncertainty over how much money they'll get in the future. They can't realistically know how much they will be getting until NYS passes it's budget.

[Amtrak7]

GTFS interlining table as of April 9, 2017

 

Weekday

Saturday

Sunday

 

If they are in fact planning on getting back $2-3 million of the $7 million original deficit, the 3 restorations seem very small. That said, they do represent 5 peak buses, which can cost a lot of money. The current schedule requires 7 peak shuttle vans, while this one requires 3. There is an AM n57 trip missing from the PDF's, leaving Great Neck 6:46 arriving 7:10.

 

Personally, I feel that the n57 really should not exist, with the savings going towards things like the n27, but with the pick already in place they can only "restore" completely eliminated routes. Of those, these 3 make the most sense.

 

In the future, it is clear that unless some party pays significantly more, cuts will continue as costs continue to rise. There isn't much left...you can't the n21 unless the n27 sees a service increase, etc. A good sign of what service cuts are likely to come in future years is what NICE proposed for April but never implemented - the 3 saved routes, the three shuttles, n1 weekday off peak service, and n35 Westbury, 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Amtrak7

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

NICE didn't originally intend to keep the n19, n57, and n78/79 after April 9th. What caused them to change their mind were a combination of negative backlash from riders at the previous meeting and the news that NICE will receive additional funding from Albany. The rush hour service on the n19 and n78/79 was mostly due to uncertainty over how much money they'll get in the future. They can't realistically know how much they will be getting until NYS passes it's budget.

 

 

GTFS interlining table as of April 9, 2017

 

Weekday

Saturday

Sunday

 

If they are in fact planning on getting back $2-3 million of the $7 million original deficit, the 3 restorations seem very small. That said, they do represent 5 peak buses, which can cost a lot of money. The current schedule requires 7 peak shuttle vans, while this one requires 3. There is an AM n57 trip missing from the PDF's, leaving Great Neck 6:46 arriving 7:10.

 

Personally, I feel that the n57 really should not exist, with the savings going towards things like the n27, but with the pick already in place they can only "restore" completely eliminated routes. Of those, these 3 make the most sense.

 

In the future, it is clear that unless some party pays significantly more, cuts will continue as costs continue to rise. There isn't much left...you can't the n21 unless the n27 sees a service increase, etc. A good sign of what service cuts are likely to come in future years is what NICE proposed for April but never implemented - the 3 saved routes, the three shuttles, n1 weekday off peak service, and n35 Westbury, 

 

I understand that about the three routes, but I still believe that NICE didn't look enough into reducing service, and cutting where they shouldn't have from the beginning.

 

The n21 could have been easily eliminated at all times, since the n20H pretty much has the entire area on lock east of Great Neck. Weekend riders on Northern would have hourly waits instead of half-hourly waits, but that is still better then having no service (i.e: Glen Cove on Sundays). The n21 cuts could have gone to run weekend n27 service, at least between Roosevelt Field and Glen Cove. 30 minute service could have been maintained if they ran the n21 buses as n27 buses instead. The n20H is still fairly frequent during the rush hour. 

 

Like I said about the n79, they could have used the resources for two buses on each line more efficiently. NICE could have had 90 minute headways on the n79 throughout the day, so that off-peak riders wouldn't be outta luck. You could have peak buses deviate to serve Industrial Plainview as well. The headways don't sound appealing, but there's coverage for a longer span in that area. They could have done the same thing with the n19, and run the route every 90 minutes between Freeport and Sunrise Mall (with 45 minute headways during the rush). This would be 3 buses, and with the 2 buses on the n79, that's your 5 buses.

 

I would have eliminated the n31 on Saturdays, and have the n32 run every 30 minutes. This would free up 1 or 2 buses, that could be used for some n79 and/or n19 service. On Sundays, I would have trimmed n15 levels, so that it runs every 30 minutes instead of 20 minutes. That would free up another bus or two, that could be used for the n79 or n19. Obviously, any savings that come from this would be placed on the n79. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[NY1635]

I understand that about the three routes, but I still believe that NICE didn't look enough into reducing service, and cutting where they shouldn't have from the beginning.

 

The n21 could have been easily eliminated at all times, since the n20H pretty much has the entire area on lock east of Great Neck. Weekend riders on Northern would have hourly waits instead of half-hourly waits, but that is still better then having no service (i.e: Glen Cove on Sundays). The n21 cuts could have gone to run weekend n27 service, at least between Roosevelt Field and Glen Cove. 30 minute service could have been maintained if they ran the n21 buses as n27 buses instead. The n20H is still fairly frequent during the rush hour. 

 

Like I said about the n79, they could have used the resources for two buses on each line more efficiently. NICE could have had 90 minute headways on the n79 throughout the day, so that off-peak riders wouldn't be outta luck. You could have peak buses deviate to serve Industrial Plainview as well. The headways don't sound appealing, but there's coverage for a longer span in that area. They could have done the same thing with the n19, and run the route every 90 minutes between Freeport and Sunrise Mall (with 45 minute headways during the rush). This would be 3 buses, and with the 2 buses on the n79, that's your 5 buses.

 

I would have eliminated the n31 on Saturdays, and have the n32 run every 30 minutes. This would free up 1 or 2 buses, that could be used for some n79 and/or n19 service. On Sundays, I would have trimmed n15 levels, so that it runs every 30 minutes instead of 20 minutes. That would free up another bus or two, that could be used for the n79 or n19. Obviously, any savings that come from this would be placed on the n79. 

 

I was at the meeting yesterday and it seemed like neither NICE or the Transit Committee wants to to make these deep painful cuts that will affect riders in Nassau County, and make the company lose more revenue. They just have to make minor cuts to avoid another big doomsday one that will leave more riders stranded. How much service is in the system is completely dependent on how much money NICE will receive from the County. I honestly don't know what's going to happen in the future because there will be a new County Executive after Ed Mangano and nobody knows how the new administration will solve the issue of funding the buses.

 

The people who take the n78/79 wouldn't really settle for the n79 running on 90 minute headways. From what I've heard, they use the route to get to/from work, which means that the current rush hour only service would work in their situation. If the n79 was reduced to 90 minutes, then it would make the route extremely unreliable and riders stranded without an alternative until the next bus show up. The same applies to the n19.

[checkmatechamp13]

I agree that it's more important to have a decent amount of rush hour service, than to have midday service (though obviously I think both are important). Also, the n78 is basically being used as a short-turn n79 that happens to go a little bit beyond Manetto Hill Road. 

 

However, I do agree that the resources used for those first 3 n57 trips would be better used for a round-trip on the n79. 

[Amtrak7]

I've taken many n78/79 rides, though mostly in the afternoons. Ridership in general:

 

-AM eastbound - n79's are standing room only, n78's are full but less so.

-PM westbound - Service is timed so the n78 picks up the shared crowds and the n79 takes the long distance riders. Usually a full seated load on each. If the n78 is late and runs behind the n79, the leader has many standees.

-AM westbound / PM eastbound - Anywhere from 4-5 (n78) to 15 or so (n79) passengers per trip.

-Middays - I'd estimate 15 or so passengers per trip (this is with the hourly service)

-Evenings - quite empty, especially the last couple roundtrips

-Weekends - only seen it a couple times, but it's usually not that busy.

 

With this ridership, I'd rather have no service (so people are aware of it) than limited service (with passups and lots of unpredictability)

 

n78 ridership on the unique portion is probably 5 or so passengers a trip in the peak direction (AM east/PM west), zero in the reverse peak. It's been a long time since I've taken that portion, though.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Amtrak7

[checkmatechamp13]

The thing that sucks is that the n79 is the first bus to show up in the morning (rather than the shorter n78) because otherwise, you'd basically have bunching heading westbound. I guess that's the problem with the pick already being posted (you can't have it interline with the n22/24 because those runs were already set).

 

In the AM, they basically eliminated the 6:43AM & 7:55AM trips out of Hicksville....I can see what you mean about overcrowding, but now the question is: How much will the crummy frequencies (even before we start talking about crowding) affect ridership?

[FamousNYLover]

So here are the new schedules for the n19, n57, and n78/79, which as stated, will run rush hours only.

 

n19: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n19_Apr2017_v2_1.pdf

n57: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n57_Apr2017_v1.pdf

n78/79: http://www.nicebus.com/NiceBus/media/Nicebus-FrontPageNewsImages/NICE-n78n79_Apr2017_v1.pdf

 

I like to keep as much coverage as possible as a result of these service cuts, but these cuts could have been better planned, and there were more ideal candidate. The only route that's entirely untouched is the n57 (of the three). I believed that all three routes were gonna be restored entirely (not just rush hour service). I would have eliminated the n57, and had those service hours divided up so that there is also midday service on the routes.

 

At the very least, I would have eliminated the first three trips on the PM n57, and that would have gone to the n79 for a 10:45 AM trip to South Huntington (and subsequent 11:25 AM trip back to Hicksville). Another thing I would have done was to eliminate the n78, have the n79 run one bus every 90 minutes. That would also use two buses, and provide a greater amount of service during the day (although not as frequent, obviously). With eliminating the first three n57 trips, those savings would be used to provide one midday trip on the n19.

 

If n57 bus was completely eliminated, no one along Station Rd, East Shore Rd and Bayview Av will be waiting for buses that never comes because n57 bus don't have any bus stops.

[B35 via Church]

I've taken many n78/79 rides, though mostly in the afternoons. Ridership in general:

 

-AM eastbound - n79's are standing room only, n78's are full but less so.

-PM westbound - Service is timed so the n78 picks up the shared crowds and the n79 takes the long distance riders. Usually a full seated load on each. If the n78 is late and runs behind the n79, the leader has many standees.

-AM westbound / PM eastbound - Anywhere from 4-5 (n78) to 15 or so (n79) passengers per trip.

-Middays - I'd estimate 15 or so passengers per trip (this is with the hourly service)

-Evenings - quite empty, especially the last couple roundtrips

-Weekends - only seen it a couple times, but it's usually not that busy.

So, basically, the same ridership habits as when I used to fan the N79 heavy..... About a decade or so ago - when Whitman Mall wasn't SIMON-ized (as I call it)......

 

I still say cutting it back from Mineola to Hicksville, to have the n24 extended from RFM to Hicksville was the best idea NICE bus ever came up with..... The Old Country rd. portion west of Hicksville was less utilized with people coming from the east (of Hicksville), compared to people coming from the west (of Mineola)...

 

In short, they should leave the n79 alone.....

[Amtrak7]

I'm noticing some discrepancies. For instance, the n58 that leaves Great Neck at 21:00 weekdays is not in the GTFS.

[N6 Limited]

I'm noticing some discrepancies. For instance, the n58 that leaves Great Neck at 21:00 weekdays is not in the GTFS.

Are the artics noted on the GTFS?

[NY1635]

According to Newsday, the n1 weekend service has been spared from the cuts, but will now operate on a 90minute headway. Service will now start at 9am.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/nice-to-continue-n1-weekend-bus-service-officials-say-1.13368763

Edited April 6, 2017 by NY1635

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

According to Newsday, the n1 weekend service has been spared from the cuts, but will now operate on a 90minute headway. Service will now start at 9am.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/nice-to-continue-n1-weekend-bus-service-officials-say-1.13368763

Actually there will be more service than that. Service on Saturdays runs from 6:30 AM to 9:00 PM, hourly until 9:30 AM, and once again after 6:00 PM. Sunday service is every 80 minutes from 9:30 AM to 8 PM.

 

http://www.nicebus.com/Passenger-Information/Schedule-Changes.aspx

 

Honestly, they couldn't just run the bus between Hempstead Turnpike and Green Acres Mall? That would give it a 60 minute headway for most n1 riders, which is more decent than 80 or 90 minute headways, and it can make connections to other buses (such as the n4 and n6) easier.  I understand that connections to the n31/32 are ideal, but is anyone really using them now, especially on the weekends? I doubt that many riders are gonna use the n31/n32 to the n1 and vice-versa especially with this new schedule. 

 

EDIT: I looked at the schedule, and this is the layout of connections to/from the n1 at Hewlett:

 

 

 

Saturday:

-2 SB trips connect to n31/32 SB & 3 trips NB within a reasonable amount of time (i.e: more than 5 minutes, no more than 15 minutes)

-3 NB trips allow for connection from both the NB and SB n31/32

 

Sunday:

- 2 SB trips connect to both NB & SB n32's

- 1 trip offers connection from both NB & SB n32's

 

 

 

Honestly, service should just run between Hempstead Turnpike and Green Acres Mall and leave it at that.

Edited April 6, 2017 by BM5 via Woodhaven Bl

[NY1635]

Actually there will be more service than that. Service on Saturdays runs from 6:30 AM to 9:00 PM, hourly until 9:30 AM, and once again after 6:00 PM. Sunday service is every 80 minutes from 9:30 AM to 8 PM.

 

http://www.nicebus.com/Passenger-Information/Schedule-Changes.aspx

 

Honestly, they couldn't just run the bus between Hempstead Turnpike and Green Acres Mall? That would give it a 60 minute headway for most n1 riders, which is more decent than 80 or 90 minute headways, and it can make connections to other buses (such as the n4 and n6) easier.  I understand that connections to the n31/32 are ideal, but is anyone really using them now, especially on the weekends? I doubt that many riders are gonna use the n31/n32 to the n1 and vice-versa especially with this new schedule. 

 

EDIT: I looked at the schedule, and this is the layout of connections to/from the n1 at Hewlett:

 

 

 

Saturday:

-2 SB trips connect to n31/32 SB & 3 trips NB within a reasonable amount of time (i.e: more than 5 minutes, no more than 15 minutes)

-3 NB trips allow for connection from both the NB and SB n31/32

 

Sunday:

- 2 SB trips connect to both NB & SB n32's

- 1 trip offers connection from both NB & SB n32's

 

 

 

Honestly, service should just run between Hempstead Turnpike and Green Acres Mall and leave it at that.

 

The County Legislator in charge of that district wouldn't allow the n1 to just be a Green Acres-Elmont route because there's no alternative to the n1 south of the mall.  It exists for the purpose of covering the areas not served by either the n31/32, and I'm assuming the few bus riders in Hewlett are trying to travel to points North of the mall with the n1.