Volunteers needed to assist us in expanding "QM20" Express bus service to Lower Manhattan

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I have not advocated for increased service on the BxM18. Just wanted to make myself clear.

 

 

You seem to be in a way though... And for what its worth, the way I see it enough of us in Riverdale use the BxM18 that it would be kept around even without the transfer. That's the one thing about my fellow neighors that I like. They get the idea that if you don't use your service then you lose it. I see folks on the BxM1 that use the BxM2 like I do and I believe I may have seen a few folks from the BxM18 using one of the other express buses here and there, but in short, they are well informed about how things work. I think in your case the question will be does your community have enough political power to force the MTA's hand to do something? The way I see it, the MTA tries to limit express bus service in Queens while pushing the LIRR which is rather annoying. If you notice, the main communities that get somewhat "decent" express bus service are the ones that are far out and generally not very close to the LIRR.

 

"Quagmire" as you call him... lol... has his own BS agenda he wants to push....

Reality doesn't factor into any of his garbage, so it's not worth comin at ole dude on that level....

 

 

As far as the other half of your post..... Simply put, he (Bounad) can't have it both ways; wanting to increase freq. on the BxM18 & extending the QM20 to lwr. manhattan....Current service levels on the BxM18 is sufficient, and for sure there'll be no open willingness (from Riverdalians) to sacrifice service on the BxM1/2 to support a headway decrease of the 18 - especially for the benefit of other express bus riders emanating from different communities.... I don't have to preach to you how territorial express bus riders are, or can get.....

 

Although it is used in such a manner, the BxM18 doesn't exist b/c it's a transfer route - it exists b/c (enough) Riverdalians wanted service b/w the direct areas served by the BxM1/2 in manhattan..... NE Queens patrons don't factor into that simply because they have to xfer to the BxM18......

 

I will be very frank... As much as I love the BxM18 for getting me home quickly, I would not want to sacrifice any lost service on the BxM1 or BxM2 for that matter, esp. since I use both of them equally. If the BxM18 wasn't around I would be using the BxM1 to work and the BxM2 from work, which is pretty much what I do now anyway if I don't use the BxM18 at night.

 

 

As for quagmire, I'm not at all going crazy over the guy. I'm just making some valid points. I still wonder with all of the babbling that he's been doing if he has actually used any of the express bus routes in Riverdale to make the sort of ridiculous statements that he is making.

[B35 via Church]

I will be very frank... As much as I love the BxM18 for getting me home quickly, I would not want to sacrifice any lost service on the BxM1 or BxM2 for that matter, esp. since I use both of them equally. If the BxM18 wasn't around I would be using the BxM1 to work and the the BxM2 from work, which is pretty much what I do now anyway if I don't use the BxM18 at night.

.....of course you wouldn't.

 

and that's the exact point I'm making.

[checkmatechamp13]

Since the bulk of the ridership from Riverdale is to Midtown (especially the first two stops 56^th & 5^th & 43^rd & 5^th, that would not help folks like myself who use the BxM18 that work in Midtown). As I said the other day, I took the BxM18 to work and damn there half of the bus unloaded at the first stop (at least 20 people). There’s also the issue of other Bronx express bus riders transferring to the BxM18 to go Downtown, which they do use, so it would not benefit Bronx express bus riders at all.

 

 

Would it kill you to look at the damn map? You do this every time somebody comes up with a proposal that you think has any sort of negative impact on you (even if in actuality it doesn't). Your precious 56th & 5th and 43rd & 5th stops would still get service. It's only those in Lower Manhattan who would be affected, and they just have to wait on a different street for their bus.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Would it kill you to look at the damn map? You do this every time somebody comes up with a proposal that you think has any sort of negative impact on you (even if in actuality it doesn't). Your precious 56th & 5th and 43rd & 5th stops would still get service. It's only those in Lower Manhattan who would be affected, and they just have to wait on a different street for their bus.

 

 

Well I don't need to look at a damn map because the BxM18 travels the same path that many SI express buses do making very similar stops, so no it wouldn't kill me to look at a damn map, but it may kill you if you didn't have one to look at seeing how rarely you travel to Manhattan on the express bus. The whole point of the route is for it to be CENTRALIZED. Sending it over to the FDR doesn't centralize it. It makes it harder to get to. And have you actually used the damn bus to say what is actually precious and what isn't?? I do on a regular basis, so I know what I'm talking about and I live in Riverdale, so I think I know what my community needs. I see the Wall street folks on the BxM18 at night, which is where the BxM18 goes and who it is serving. It is not like the X90, which started its run over the far end of the Upper East Side. The focus of the BxM18 is to serve the main business hubs and main connections, be it express buses, local buses or subways. This nonsense about traffic can only be maybe justified in the morning if that because at night my BxM18s come on time, regardless to when I take them, which has been anywhere from the first bus to the last bus to buses at the heat of rush hour. I mean people complaining about traffic on 5th Avenue like this is a new thing suddenly. 5th Avenue has always had a lot of traffic and now suddenly we're going to re-route one bus because of traffic. What about all of the other buses that travel down 5th Avenue? Should we re-route all of them from the main heart of the financial centers and inconvenience folks who work no where near the FDR Drive? I don't think so. These QM20 folks need their own Downtown extension. Leave our BxM18 alone and let Riverdale folks and the Bronx express bus riders have their service the way it is. We're not complaining so why should changes be made for another borough when the folks in the Bronx and us folks in Riverdale are fine with the line as it is???????? And any thought of changing that route and you'd better believe that we'll make a stink like you won't believe, be it Downtown or Midtown. Just because I work in Midtown doesn't mean that I don't travel Downtown and I most certainly have been very close to using the BxM18 Downtown on a number of occasions and having it that far over would most certainly be a huge inconvenience not only for me, but for all other riders on the line.

 

I'm not saying that everything that the MTA does is gold, but as far as I'm concerned they hit the jackpot with the route structures of the BxM1, BxM2 and BxM18.

 

The fact of the matter is the MTA knows where its ridership comes from on the line and sure as hell isn't by the FDR Drive. The folks willing to pay for the express bus work in the main financial hubs, period.

[checkmatechamp13]

I said take a look at the map Gorgor made for how he would reroute the BxM18. It would still serve 5th Avenue in Midtown. I wasn't talking about the MTA map. Again, get your f*cking facts straight before you criticize me.

 

And you're really f*cking kidding me if you think I have to look at an express bus map to know how buses go in Midtown. Yeah, I don't use the express bus too often, but there are only a few service patterns to memorize (the routes via NJ, the FDR routes, the Downtown Loop routes, the routes up West Street, and then the routes up Church Street/Broadway). I know the Bronx and Queens routes too considering the fact that there are only a few patterns there as well.

 

And the last time I checked, Water Street was just as close to the Financial District as Broadway/Church Street is.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I said take a look at the map Gorgor made for how he would reroute the BxM18. It would still serve 5th Avenue in Midtown. I wasn't talking about the MTA map. Again, get your f*cking facts straight before you criticize me.

 

And you're really f*cking kidding me if you think I have to look at an express bus map to know how buses go in Midtown. Yeah, I don't use the express bus too often, but there are only a few service patterns to memorize (the routes via NJ, the FDR routes, the Downtown Loop routes, the routes up West Street, and then the routes up Church Street/Broadway). I know the Bronx and Queens routes too considering the fact that there are only a few patterns there as well.

 

And the last time I checked, Water Street was just as close to the Financial District as Broadway/Church Street is.

 

 

There is nothing to look at because this isn't the first time that Gorgor has proposed this, nor the first time that he's made a map for the BxM18 with it being re-routed via the FDR Drive, so yeah, I think you need to get your facts straight.

 

 

I didn't agree with the re-route then and I didn't live in Riverdale and now suddenly I'm going to agree with now and I use the BxM18 daily and agree with the current routing both Downtown & Midtown?? I think not. I use the bus and see where the ridership comes from and I have also been Downtown on a number of occasions since I moved for shopping and such so I have a pretty good idea as to how the line works.

[checkmatechamp13]

Alright. Then explain to me why you were harping on Madison & 44th and Madison & 56th losing service if you knew exactly what Gorgor was proposing. If you knew what he was proposing, you'd see that it would still serve Midtown Manhattan along 5th Avenue.

 

And again, I'd like to know why I should look at a map if I already know where all the express routes go. I don't take the subway too often and I know all the stations in the system. Is it really that hard for me to memorize a few express bus patterns? Didn't think so. How my looking at a map is relevant to the topic I don't know.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Alright. Then explain to me why you were harping on Madison & 44th and Madison & 56th losing service if you looked at the map.

 

And again, I'd like to know why I should look at a map if I already know where all the express routes go.''

 

 

Simple. As I said before the re-route of the BxM18 was discussed before and in that previous discussion, proposals were made to not have the BxM18 serving those stops, hence why I brought it up now.

 

As for why you need to look at a map, well you like looking at maps so why the sudden hesitation now?? lol

[checkmatechamp13]

So let me think. Maybe Gorgor was actually paying attention in that thread and incorporated the suggestion of keeping Midtown Manhattan service in his map. Oh, but you're too busy complaining to bother opening the map to see if that's the case.

 

And again, why should I look at a map when I could visualize the patterns in my head?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So let me think. Maybe Gorgor was actually paying attention in that thread and incorporated the suggestion of keeping Midtown Manhattan service in his map. Oh, but you're too busy complaining to bother opening the map to see if that's the case.

 

And again, why should I look at a map when I could visualize the patterns in my head?

 

 

Well if he was really paying attention he would know what his "current" plan eliminates more than just than just a few stops and basically screws over Riverdale express bus riders and Bronx express bus riders that transfer to the BxM18. His plan eliminates several stops south of 34th street forcing folks to make unnecessary transfers, which makes absolutely NO sense at all, so yeah like I said, I didn't support the first re-route and I don't support this one.

 

As for my looking at a map suggestion, I forgot that you don't have a clue about something called sarcasm.

[B35 via Church]

What is all this talk about looking at maps......

 

 

How my looking at a map is relevant to the topic I don't know.

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how the BxM18 is as relevant to this topic to the tune that's it's being discussed.... Or how it got to this point to begin with.....

[checkmatechamp13]

Well if he was really paying attention he would know what his "current" plan eliminates more than just than just a few stops and basically screws over Riverdale express bus riders and Bronx express bus riders that transfer to the BxM18. His plan eliminates several stops south of 34th street forcing folks to make unnecessary transfers, which makes absolutely NO sense at all, so yeah like I said, I didn't support the first re-route and I don't support this one.

 

As for my looking at a map suggestion, I forgot that you don't have a clue about something called sarcasm.

 

 

That's only in the northbound direction and he could always have it run on 23rd Street both ways if it's that much of an issue.

 

As for looking at a map, do I really look like an idiot? I understand sarcasm. It's just hard to think up snappy comments if you've missed so much sleep. I was disputing the fact that all I like to do is look at maps. I take into account the terrain, ridership, and other factors when coming up with proposals. Not to mention, I've come up with plenty of proposals without even having to look at a map, but apparently you seem to ignore that (and don't bother asking me to list them because I've explained them plenty of times).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's only in the northbound direction and he could always have it run on 23rd Street both ways if it's that much of an issue.

 

No it isn't. It's in both directions or did you forget that the BxM18 makes stops below 23rd street along Broadway???

 

As for looking at a map, do I really look like an idiot? I understand sarcasm. It's just hard to think up snappy comments if you've missed so much sleep. I was disputing the fact that all I like to do is look at maps. I take into account the terrain, ridership, and other factors when coming up with proposals. Not to mention, I've come up with plenty of proposals without even having to look at a map, but apparently you seem to ignore that (and don't bother asking me to list them because I've explained them plenty of times).

 

 

Well you could've fooled me... You kept asking me the same question, so it didn't seemed like you got my sarcasm. In any event, you can't deny that you like maps. Aside from Roadcruiser, I can't think of anyone who posts more maps than you do, including Google maps. lol

[checkmatechamp13]

You started out saying "but it may kill you if you didn't have one to look at seeing how rarely you travel to Manhattan on the express bus". The first part just sounded like a comeback, but the second part sounded like you actually thought I had no idea where express buses go in Manhattan because of how rarely I use them.

 

In Post #132, that was only because you didn't answer my comeback.

 

In Post #134, that was because I couldn't think of anything better to say (as for why I'm posting now, I finished my homework so I figured I might as well post while the computer's on)

 

And for the maps, I assume you mean the StreetView ones, right? I don't really do a whole lot of mapping out routings on Google Maps like some other posters do.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What is all this talk about looking at maps......

 

 

 

Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how the BxM18 is as relevant to this topic to the tune that's it's being discussed.... Or how it got to this point to begin with.....

 

 

Well Gorgor, quagmire and checkmate have made it relevant by saying that it is too slow and talking about how it needs to be more convenient for Queens express bus riders, which I disagree with. The BxM18 is for us Riverdale riders FIRST, then the folks in the Bronx and then the express bus riders in Queens. In sum, the folks in Queens need direct express bus service to Downtown with extended QM20 runs. What they could do is run some as a test and then see how successful it is, similar to what they did with the X22. Of course I don't see how it could be made to be cost neutral, but again the main issue is how much pull do the folks in Queens have to get the QM20 extended? As for now the MTA is not going to make adjustments to the BxM18 to suit Queens express bus riders and I think the idea of re-routing the bus to inconvenience Riverdale riders and riders in the Bronx is ridiculous and completely unnecessary. It's kind of like saying well the service for QM20 riders sucks, so let's f*ck up the service for the folks in Riverdale.

[Harry]

C'mon gentlemen let's slow it down a bit. Please.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

LOL... I thought we were having a civil conversation...

[B35 via Church]

Well Gorgor, quagmire and checkmate have made it relevant by saying that it is too slow and talking about how it needs to be more convenient for Queens express bus riders, which I disagree with.

Ok, this much answers my inquiry of how it got to this point.....

 

The lecture about who the BxM18 is for (and your disagreement of their assessments) you most certainly don't have to reinforce to me...

 

 

It's kind of like saying well the service for QM20 riders sucks, so let's f*ck up the service for the folks in Riverdale.

Yeah, that's exactly the message that's being sent.... and I don't care for it anymore than you do.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Ok, this much answers my inquiry of how it got to this point.....

 

The lecture about who the BxM18 is for (and your disagreement of their assessments) you most certainly don't have to reinforce to me...

 

Yes of course, but that was more so for them than anybody else.

[checkmatechamp13]

Well Gorgor, quagmire and checkmate have made it relevant by saying that it is too slow and talking about how it needs to be more convenient for Queens express bus riders, which I disagree with. The BxM18 is for us Riverdale riders FIRST, then the folks in the Bronx and then the express bus riders in Queens. In sum, the folks in Queens need direct express bus service to Downtown with extended QM20 runs. What they could do is run some as a test and then see how successful it is, similar to what they did with the X22. Of course I don't see how it could be made to be cost neutral, but again the main issue is how much pull do the folks in Queens have to get the QM20 extended? As for now the MTA is not going to make adjustments to the BxM18 to suit Queens express bus riders and I think the idea of re-routing the bus to inconvenience Riverdale riders and riders in the Bronx is ridiculous and completely unnecessary. It's kind of like saying well the service for QM20 riders sucks, so let's f*ck up the service for the folks in Riverdale.

 

 

I never said I specifically supported it. Just that's it's not a bad idea and you should actually look at the damn map before critcizing something.

 

As for the BxM18, there are people from Riverdale who use it to go Downtown who would benefit from a faster route.

 

And no, I'm not suggesting anything about having more BxM18 service or something like that to compensate for the lack of QM20 service to Lower Manhattan. The BxM18 and the route it takes to Lower Manhattan is a seperate discussion from the QM20.

 

As for how to make it cost-neutral, you could start by having the buses not serve Midtown at all and go directly Downtown via the FDR Drive. Obviously it costs more to get to Downtown than Midtown, but at least it's a smaller cost. The MTA actually made some changes to the Woodhaven Blvd routes that cost $125,000 so they think it'll be paid for by additional ridership, so who knows? Maybe they're changing their attitude about major improvements not attracting enough riders to pay for themselves.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I never said I specifically supported it. Just that's it's not a bad idea and you should actually look at the damn map before critcizing something.

 

As for the BxM18, there are people from Riverdale who use it to go Downtown who would benefit from a faster route.

 

And no, I'm not suggesting anything about having more BxM18 service or something like that to compensate for the lack of QM20 service to Lower Manhattan. The BxM18 and the route it takes to Lower Manhattan is a seperate discussion from the QM20.

 

As for how to make it cost-neutral, you could start by having the buses not serve Midtown at all and go directly Downtown via the FDR Drive. Obviously it costs more to get to Downtown than Midtown, but at least it's a smaller cost. The MTA actually made some changes to the Woodhaven Blvd routes that cost $125,000 so they think it'll be paid for by additional ridership, so who knows? Maybe they're changing their attitude about major improvements not attracting enough riders to pay for themselves.

 

 

Well either way it makes absolutely no sense to change the route when we in Riverdale are just fine with it the way it is. You can't expect one bus to suit the needs of two different boroughs and that's the real issue here. The QM20 folks need their own Downtown service, period. As for us BxM18 riders having a faster commute, yeah maybe it will be faster, but only for a select few, but it will also be a lot emptier esp. seeing how many bus stops would be eliminated with Gorgor's plan. The re-route would make the route less centralized and force ridership to come from an area that would make it less convenient for current BxM18 riders to get to, which is clearly what is being missed here. Folks that get on along Church St are not going to want to schlepp over by Water street for the bus. It would require additional time to get to those stops and wouldn't be worth it overall. Furthermore, the proposal basically makes the BxM18 a Downtown Loop express bus with a few stops in Midtown, which would again deter ridership and kill the line.

[checkmatechamp13]

Look at it again. Since it would be a Downtown Loop, Church Street would still have service (I mean, Broadway would lose service, but it's just 1 short block to reach Church Street).

 

And like I said, any changes to the BxM18 would have nothing to do with QM20 riders. If it happens to benefit them, so be it (but I agree that some runs should serve Lower Manhattan)

[Gorgor]

Well either way it makes absolutely no sense to change the route when we in Riverdale are just fine with it the way it is. You can't expect one bus to suit the needs of two different boroughs and that's the real issue here. The QM20 folks need their own Downtown service, period. As for us BxM18 riders having a faster commute, yeah maybe it will be faster, but only for a select few, but it will also be a lot emptier esp. seeing how many bus stops would be eliminated with Gorgor's plan. The re-route would make the route less centralized and force ridership to come from an area that would make it less convenient for current BxM18 riders to get to, which is clearly what is being missed here. Folks that get on along Church St are not going to want to schlepp over by Water street for the bus. It would require additional time to get to those stops and wouldn't be worth it overall. Furthermore, the proposal basically makes the BxM18 a Downtown Loop express bus with a few stops in Midtown, which would again deter ridership and kill the line.

 

You are constantly contradicting yourself. You said that the BxM18 serves mainly Riverdale riders going to Midtown, which will be completely unaffected by the reroute I proposed. And you can't even go and say that the BxM18 is "centralized" when it runs nonstop between Midtown (23rd Street) and Downtown (Canal Street). The BM1-4 express buses don't make any stops between Midtown and Downtown via the FDR Drive and they're doing perfectly fine, especially during rush hour. Now there will be some people at the 3 bus stops between Park Place and Canal Street that would be inconvenienced, but adding stops along Water Street will definitely gain new ridership from riders. The reroute would also give Riverdale riders a faster trip if they're headed Downtown because the FDR Drive is so much faster than local roads during rush hour.

 

This would also shorten Queens express bus riders' trips downtown by at least 15 minutes during the AM rush and between 5-10 minutes during the PM rush. If they get off at 34th Street/3rd Avenue, cross the street, get on a BxM18 headed downtown, they could be getting off on Water Street in less than 10 minutes after they get on the bus, rather than spending 5-10 minutes crawling on 34th Street to 5th Avenue and then another 15 minutes on the BxM18 headed down Broadway.

 

Overall this would positively affect more people than it would hurt. Stop being all like "how dare you insult us high and mighty Riverdale folk." As an Upper East Sider, all I see Riverdale as being is a nice neighborhood for people who can't afford to live in Manhattan. But anyways, his would not affect you in any way at all, plus it would attract new riders who work on Water Street and don't want a huge walk from Broadway/Church and give everyone else a faster ride to/from work.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You are constantly contradicting yourself. You said that the BxM18 serves mainly Riverdale riders going to Midtown, which will be completely unaffected by the reroute I proposed. And you can't even go and say that the BxM18 is "centralized" when it runs nonstop between Midtown (23rd Street) and Downtown (Canal Street). The BM1-4 express buses don't make any stops between Midtown and Downtown via the FDR Drive and they're doing perfectly fine, especially during rush hour. Now there will be some people at the 3 bus stops between Park Place and Canal Street that would be inconvenienced, but adding stops along Water Street will definitely gain new ridership from riders. The reroute would also give Riverdale riders a faster trip if they're headed Downtown because the FDR Drive is so much faster than local roads during rush hour.

 

This would also shorten Queens express bus riders' trips downtown by at least 15 minutes during the AM rush and between 5-10 minutes during the PM rush. If they get off at 34th Street/3rd Avenue, cross the street, get on a BxM18 headed downtown, they could be getting off on Water Street in less than 10 minutes after they get on the bus, rather than spending 5-10 minutes crawling on 34th Street to 5th Avenue and then another 15 minutes on the BxM18 headed down Broadway.

 

Overall this would positively affect more people than it would hurt. Stop being all like "how dare you insult us high and mighty Riverdale folk." As an Upper East Sider, all I see Riverdale as being is a nice neighborhood for people who can't afford to live in Manhattan. But anyways, his would not affect you in any way at all, plus it would attract new riders who work on Water Street and don't want a huge walk from Broadway/Church and give everyone else a faster ride to/from work.

 

Just because I said that the majority of folks in Riverdale get off in Midtown doesn't mean that you don't have folks that use it for Downtown. The purpose of the BxM18 is to serve the immediate financial areas and for Downtown it is supposed to serve the Wall Street folks more than anything. You have plenty of folks that work at NYSE for example that live in Riverdale and that's why it takes the route that it does. Anyway you slice it it would not fly period. That's like me saying that the X90 should've been re-routed to serve Queens express bus riders when it was clearly for Upper East Side riders. Yes, I'm being territorial, but that's the way it is and you as an express bus rider know that. The neighborhood doesn't matter. If the shoe was the other foot and I was living in Queens and the roles were reversed, I would say the same thing. You have to look out for your own backyard first and foremost, and this is all this is about. Has nothing to do with being high and mighty or any of that crappola you're mentioning. As for your comment about folks in Riverdale not being to afford to live in Manhattan... LOL... Typical Manhattanite showing their ignorance about folks who live outside of Manhattan. I suppose you think that everyone who lives in wealthy areas like Westchester and wealthy neighborhoods in Brooklyn like Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights also live there because they can't afford to live in Manhattan. Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps they just don't want to live there?? Manhattan is not the be all end all and quite frankly the hoards of people (esp. tourists) all over gets to be rather sickening. I like the Upper East Side for shopping, but living there...?? I'll take Riverdale or another suburban neighborhood any day... Every morning I get to wake out to the sound of woodpeckers outside of my balcony pecking about which is really nice to hear. I doubt I could get that sort of tranquility on the Upper East Side.

[Gorgor]

Just because I said that the majority of folks in Riverdale get off in Midtown doesn't mean that you don't have folks that use it for Downtown. The purpose of the BxM18 is to serve the immediate financial areas and for Downtown it is supposed to serve the Wall Street folks more than anything. You have plenty of folks that work at NYSE for example that live in Riverdale and that's why it takes the route that it does. Anyway you slice it it would not fly period. That's like me saying that the X90 should've been re-routed to serve Queens express bus riders when it was clearly for Upper East Side riders. Yes, I'm being territorial, but that's the way it is and you as an express bus rider know that. The neighborhood doesn't matter. If the shoe was the other foot and I was living in Queens and the roles were reversed, I would say the same thing. You have to look out for your own backyard first and foremost, and this is all this is about. Has nothing to do with being high and mighty or any of that crappola you're mentioning. As for your comment about folks in Riverdale not being to afford to live in Manhattan... LOL... Typical Manhattanite showing their ignorance about folks who live outside of Manhattan. I suppose you think that everyone who lives in wealthy areas like Westchester and wealthy neighborhoods in Brooklyn like Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights also live there because they can't afford to live in Manhattan. Did it ever dawn on you that perhaps they just don't want to live there?? Manhattan is not the be all end all and quite frankly the hoards of people (esp. tourists) all over gets to be rather sickening. I like the Upper East Side for shopping, but living there...?? I'll take Riverdale or another suburban neighborhood any day... Every morning I get to wake out to the sound of woodpeckers outside of my balcony pecking about which is really nice to hear. I doubt I could get that sort of tranquility on the Upper East Side.

 

Have you even taken a look at the map? Anyone traveling to Wall Street will have a FASTER commute. And because most of the "Wall Street" jobs are located along or close to Water Street, it's less walking. The only people that this inconveniences are people who work near Canal Street, Worth Street, or Chambers Street, and that's north of what's considered to be the Downtown Financial District.