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East New York

B46 +SelectBusService+

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This just in!

 

The (MTA) is agressively studying the alternatives to moving people up and down Utica Ave. We all know that the only true solution is a new subway line, but with money tight, and SBS a success, what can be done?

 

Well, the MTA may just have a plan for that. Before tonight, I was very skeptical about any SBS plans actually working on Utica Ave. But after being briefed about what's currently on the table, it might actually work.:cool:

 

At this time, I am not at liberty to supply any details. However, in the next few days, I should be able so supply some.:cool:

 

Stay Tuned!:(

 

 

Why am I not surprised? The (B46) has come a long way since I was a little kid. I remember back in the day, when the (B41), not the (B46), used to run things. When mom took my brother and I to KP, and coming back, it was the (B41) that had the frequent service out of there. Now things have changed. You can see up to 5 (B46)s at the terminal waiting to pick up and leave while waiting for a (B41). I'm glad to see my main childhood route is being "big'ed up!".:tup::cool:

As for the part north of Carroll Stree(my old block), as others mentioned, S/B service can run down Stuyvesant and Schenectady Aves. It can still have subway connections with the (A),(C),(3),and (4) trains as there are exits at those locations.

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Why am I not surprised? The (B46) has come a long way since I was a little kid. I remember back in the day, when the (B41), not the (B46), used to run things. When mom took my brother and I to KP, and coming back, it was the (B41) that had the frequent service out of there. Now things have changed. You can see up to 5 (B46)s at the terminal waiting to pick up and leave while waiting for a (B41). I'm glad to see my main childhood route is being "big'ed up!".:tup::cool:

As for the part north of Carroll Stree(my old block), as others mentioned, S/B service can run down Stuyvesant and Schenectady Aves. It can still have subway connections with the (A),(C),(3),and (4) trains as there are exits at those locations.

 

(MTA) will *NOT* approve buses running down Stuyvesant and Schenectady Avenues under any circumstances. For one, they are residental streets that are less prone to buses, and secondly, there will be massive traffic restrictions once +SBS46+ takes in effect, like a 7AM-7PM dedicated bus lane btwn Dekalb Avenue thru the whole length of the line. Since that whole part of utica is narrow bwn Carroll Street-Dekalb Avenue.

 

Elimation of left turns will be very key to how traffic flows down Utica Avenue. Simular to what they are doing right now on the Downtown Corridor of Flatbush which they are absolutely NO LEFT TURNS, north and south of Atlantic Avenue. They are starting to eliminate left turns on Flatbush N/S bound on Foster.. It may strech towards the Junction/Avenue H (except buses) at ALL TIMES.

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I figured the MTA bringing up cutting down on commuting time, cutting down on boarding time, and everything else the MTA brought up waxing poetic about (upon coming out with) Select Bus service was one big cloak & dagger... I just didn't realize, to what.... always had it in the back of my mind the(ir) main purpose w/ SBS wadn't to benefit the passenger....

 

Now I understand....

as bass-ackwards as this sounds, SBS is the MTA's solution to cracking down on farebeating.

 

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

It's like how they plan on bringing SBS to the Bx41...you really think they want to improve service on Webster Avenue???? You gotta be kidding me...working that line you may as well just drive with your hand on the F5 button.

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Why am I not surprised? The (B46) has come a long way since I was a little kid. I remember back in the day, when the (B41), not the (B46), used to run things. When mom took my brother and I to KP, and coming back, it was the (B41) that had the frequent service out of there. Now things have changed. You can see up to 5 (B46)s at the terminal waiting to pick up and leave while waiting for a (B41). I'm glad to see my main childhood route is being "big'ed up!".:tup::cool:

As for the part north of Carroll Stree(my old block), as others mentioned, S/B service can run down Stuyvesant and Schenectady Aves. It can still have subway connections with the (A),(C),(3),and (4) trains as there are exits at those locations.

 

That brings up another problem. Stuyvesant Av is one way going south the entire street (From Broadway to Fulton St) and Schenectady Av is also one way south from Fulton St. the only way to get to those streets is by making a right on Fulton, then making a left on Schenectady. Cars have a hard time getting through there for the most part since the traffic lights don't sync up so buses are gonna have a nightmare, espically since Fulton St is so tight at that spot.

 

Besides, the people over in Stuyvesant Hts (or Weeksville, whatever them people over there call it, I still say its Bed-Stuy) aren't gonna have buses down there blocks AND having to give up parking

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Will they even be able to send the thing north of Eastern Pkwy? The streets seem too narrow for SBS. I certainly do not support SBS on streets that are bidirectional with one lane in both directions. Yeah, I know, the B44 and future B44 SBS does/will do it on Nostrand between Farragut and Kings Hwy and between Gerritsen and V. However the logistics are different since the B44 SBS will only stop three times on these stretches, at Flatbush, Kings Hwy, and U. If the B46 SBS does operate north of Eastern, so be it. It will just be slower than the B44.

 

I was under the impression that the B46 SBS would only operate south of Eastern.

 

The B2 and B31 will only get Artics if their routes get extended so they can pick up more people to justify higher service levels.

 

I do not think Marcy Avenue should be a stop, Acela. It is right next to the terminal. I know the (J)(M)(Z) are right there, but it should only be a stop if the buses tend to get caught at the light or something. Would like to hear your reasoning since you know the B46 like the back of your hand.

 

Might not be a bad idea to skip N for various reasons, including its proximity to Fillmore. It seems like Winthrop should be kept because of Kingsbrook. The B44 basically has the same stopping pattern (Church, Clarkson, Empire). Although maybe you want to kill the Utica-Winthrop stop because Utica does not move as well as Nostrand and Rogers (two-way vs. one-way pair) and because there are no bus transfers there. But to me it seems like Winthrop should be kept.

 

I think Eastern and St. John's should be consolidated as a compromise. Kill both stops and instead put one at Lincoln Place/Eastern Pkwy.

 

Union Avenue/Heyward Street should be a stop instead of Lorimer Street so that people can transfer to/from the (G) right there.

 

Based on past arguments on this forum, it seems unclear whether SBS increases fare evasion, decreases it, or has little to no effect. I personally think this should be completely ignored when choosing routes to convert to SBS. My mentality is, the more routes you convert to SBS, the better. Most bus operators will say that the working conditions on SBS are much better than those on non-SBS routes, and as an occasional (formerly frequent) bus passenger I can tell you that the less I have to use non-SBS routes, the better. After years of seeing and hearing about all the nonsense that B/Os, including the ones I know, have to deal with, SBS is a Godsend. Even though it is not as fast as we would all like it to be on the Bx12, M15, and M34.

 

But for argument's sake, as far as the fare goes, I seriously doubt MTA is losing more money than it would if there were no SBS. Between the people that do not want to risk getting fined, the people that take the risk and [eventually] do get fined, and the lower operating costs of SBS due to the decreased running times, SBS is probably a cost-neutral operation at worst in the long run.

SBS on the B46 would be 'fully' BRT if they neglected everything north of Eastern Parkway. In this case, they'd had to ban parking on Utica between Empire Blvd. and Fulton St., just to introduce a direct through-fare, and hopefully get the buses moving a bit faster along the route --- between 6AM and 9PM should suffice. On our current paddles now, they give us 15 minutes to get from Church Avenue to Eastern Parkway, and that's if when you're Limited during peak hours; non-peak is about 8 minutes, if that.

 

As for throwing in the Marcy Avenue stop for SBS, that should've been labeled as a "maybe" listing, because you're right - the damn stop is one block from the actual Bridge terminal.

 

Avenue N stop is really to benefit the folks transferring from the B41s coming from Bergen Beach.

 

Winthrop is only there for Kingsbrook to be honest, but I've never seen groups of folks waiting at this stop for the 46. Granted, it is a current LTD stop, and frequently used, but think they can do away with it; nothing the local can't handle, in my opinion.

 

The idea of SBS on the 46 is to speed the pace up in the congested areas, and removing Winthrop shouldn't be an issue.

 

The stands for both Eastern Parkway and St. Johns carry enough passengers solo as it is now. Eastern Parkway alone is enough work, and some days I don't think the block is large enough for the crowds waiting for the bus, especially on the southbound stand. Keeping both stands separate should be OK at the moment. SBS won't lose too much time between stations there.

 

As for the Union Ave / Lorimer St. decision, I agree with the G train connection, but where exactly do they plan on installing the "station" at those stands? The northbound stand is a petty little stop as it is, and moving across the street in front of the 99 cent store would just interfere with their drive-way. Or they can move the station over to the farside where they sell plants & flowers (the side by 90th Precinct).

 

I've ridden the M15SBS recently, and I can tell you this will have a huge impact on the 46 and how it will revitalize the line as a whole, if executed correctly. I can see it now, 60 people at Church Avenue waiting for the 46, on the bus within 10-15 seconds with 3-door access.

 

It's a lovely thing!!

 

My boys in the Bronx at Gun Hill tell me their in heaven operating the Bx12SBS. The biggest thing is the fare when it comes to operating, and with that responsibility off your back, the job becomes less of a hassle. Let a team of tough guys come and take care of it. They'll raid the 44 & 46 every week so much... *loss of words*

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I think it would take 25 to pick up 60 people. Next time I ride the Bx12 or M15 SBS (or if I ride B44 SBS after it starts) during rush hour I will see exactly how long it takes. With SBS you typically do not need more than 25 to pick up/drop off people at a stop. 15 is the max if you are picking up about 30-40 people. Although as time goes on the dwell times decrease because people get used to the system and move more quickly.

 

These times do not include the time you spend sitting at red signals after you finish picking up though. The maximum dwell time at a stop for the B44 SBS will probably be 90 at Nostrand/Flatbush northbound, including the time spent waiting for the signal to change. I do not know the lights along the B46 as well as I know those along the B44. Longest dwell time would probably occur at Eastern Pkwy northbound on the B46 SBS, and I would guess about 90 seconds there. Pick-up/drop-off wait time and red signal wait time included.

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SBS B46 I think would work south of Eastern Pkwy passing Empire Blvd and further to Kings Plaza and vice-versa. Utica Av streets are wider in that part.

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I think it would take 25 to pick up 60 people. Next time I ride the Bx12 or M15 SBS (or if I ride B44 SBS after it starts) during rush hour I will see exactly how long it takes. With SBS you typically do not need more than 25 to pick up/drop off people at a stop. 15 is the max if you are picking up about 30-40 people. Although as time goes on the dwell times decrease because people get used to the system and move more quickly.

 

These times do not include the time you spend sitting at red signals after you finish picking up though. The maximum dwell time at a stop for the B44 SBS will probably be 90 at Nostrand/Flatbush northbound, including the time spent waiting for the signal to change. I do not know the lights along the B46 as well as I know those along the B44. Longest dwell time would probably occur at Eastern Pkwy northbound on the B46 SBS, and I would guess about 90 seconds there. Pick-up/drop-off wait time and red signal wait time included.

But I thought SBS routes were supposed to have the ability to automatically change the traffic lights green, thus eliminate the excessive dwell times at the lights?

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http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/531730-post3.html

 

As INDman said in that post, the system will only be set up to keep a green light green, not to change a signal from red to green.

 

At an intersection like the Junction it probably makes more sense to just let the lights do what they normally do. Flatbush gets a slightly longer signal than Nostrand, and Flatbush is more congested than Nostrand at the intersection. Especially southbound. Flatbush is a nightmare southbound at the Junction. Now if a B44 SBS pulls up at the northbound stop while Nostrand has a green signal and keeps the signal green until it has finished dropping off and picking up, the congestion on Flatbush Avenue becomes so much worse than it is now whenever Flatbush has a red signal.

 

Since a northbound B44 SBS bus would probably spend about 25 seconds at most dropping off and picking up at the Junction, it would not make sense for Flatbush traffic to wait for the bus to finish picking up for up to 25-30 seconds. 25 extra seconds of green for Nostrand (and red for Flatbush, plus the one- to three-second delay between the time the Nostrand light becomes red and the Flatbush light becomes green) would be the worst case scenario, which would happen if the B44 SBS bus pulled in to the stop at the time that the Nostrand light was supposed to begin changing to yellow (and then red). That is way too much time for the Flatbush traffic to keep on piling up before Flatbush gets the green again.

 

This would only work if they banned parking and standing on Flatbush from Farragut to H during the busy hours. Also Nostrand is supposed to get a northbound, curbside, peak-hour bus lane from I to Flatbush and a southbound, curbside, peak-hour bus lane from Farragut to H.

 

I timed the intervals at the Junction before, I believe it is 30 seconds of green for Nostrand, then 60 seconds of green for Flatbush, then about 15 seconds for the all-walk phase (when no vehicles can enter the intersection), then green for Nostrand and repeat. I am not sure whether it varies by time of day and day of week. They may also program the TSP so that the signals behave differently for different situations.

 

If the bus gets there and Nostrand is supposed to turn red about 15 seconds later, the lights will probably just do what they do now and the bus will have to wait. Or, maybe the bus picks everybody up within those 15 seconds and then it makes it into the intersection as the light changes. This is alright since the buses will be making the left onto Flatbush rather than going straight. So the bus should have a clear shot since the last of the southbound traffic on Nostrand is going through the intersection as it is trying to make the left. DOT said it wants to ban northbound left turns at the Junction for all vehicles except MTA buses.

 

Additionally they may put a left turn traffic signal at the Junction, so even if the Nostrand signal becomes red, the northbound B44 SBS bus can still go through. This will be much easier since it will be the only vehicle that can legally make that turn. So it does not have to wait for other vehicles to go. Unless the leader is right up front or a NIS MTA bus (especially a B44 local that terminated at the Junction and wants to turn around via Flatbush/Glenwood/Nostrand to head back south) wants to make that turn.

 

In the case of Utica/Eastern, Eastern Parkway currently has priority over any north-south street. I know the reds on Rogers and Nostrand at EP last about 60 seconds. I do not know how long they last at Utica. Also there may be more signals for turns at Utica/EP than at Rogers/EP or Nostrand/EP.

 

And Linden Blvd will likely not be changed. The intersecting north-south avenues will still have red signals that last about 75 seconds (this is the duration for Rogers and Nostrand at Rogers/Linden and Nostrand/Linden) because Linden is a heavily used street and has priority. Same deal with Atlantic, although I forgot the duration of the reds on Bedford and Nostrand at Bedford/Atlantic and Nostrand/Atlantic. I know nothing about Utica/Atlantic.

 

I cannot speak for Utica, but the thing with Rogers/Nostrand is that even though there are longer red signals than those on 1st Avenue, there is less congestion. Rogers and Nostrand move much better than 1st. During the rush, 1st is pretty slow. Very congested thanks to the fact that too many bridges and tunnels feed in to 1st. If a M15 SBS can make 14 stops along 1st Avenue over a distance of 6.1 miles in 43 minutes during the rush, then a B44 SBS (which has practically zero turns) should have no problem making 16 stops over 9.3 miles in 48 minutes during the rush.

 

It is not easy for me to estimate how long a B46 SBS would take since I do not know Utica extremely well and since Utica cannot have signal synchronization (this is different from TSP) like unidirectional streets. It is easier to estimate the travel times for SBS routes that travel [in bus lanes] on one-way streets or travel on two-way streets that are not badly congested but make few stops to pick up/drop off on the two-way street(s) in question. I would estimate about 4 minutes from the time you leave one stop to the time you leave the next stop for the average pair of B46 SBS stops. Maybe 5 from Empire to EP. 3 from Fillmore to N. Just to give you an idea. It would probably take 4 to get from H to D, from D to Church, or from Church to Empire. 3 from KP to Fillmore. 3 from N to Flatlands, 3 from Flatlands to H. So 29 from KP to EP during rush hour.

 

Unfortunately this is not much of an improvement compared to the 31-34 minutes it currently takes during rush hour (on paper). More consistent/predictable/reliable than the local/limited because of the POP system and (hopefully) bus lanes on Utica, but still. This illustrates my point about how SBS only produces real results if it is on unidirectional streets or makes few stops on bidirectional streets with decent traffic flow or whatever other conditions must hold to make it effective. If there are well-enforced bus lanes and good, effective (read: not willy-nilly) TSP on Utica, then those 29 minutes could be cut down to 23. It should really be 23 minutes at most in my opinion. And that is being rather generous (allowing a little extra) if you ask me.

Edited by '89 Liberty MCI
Some grammar and word usage corrections, extra information. "Red to green," not "green to red"!

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SBS should not be in Brooklyn. Many people in Brooklyn live in areas where there isn't a lot of transit or bus service. Often times i find myself and many other people running to catch the bus Imagine how much harder it would be if we had SBS. SBS may work in manhattan where trains are only at worst a few blocks away but it doesnt work in BK.

Edited by kingal11234

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Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

It's like how they plan on bringing SBS to the Bx41...you really think they want to improve service on Webster Avenue???? You gotta be kidding me...working that line you may as well just drive with your hand on the F5 button.

 

You couldn't be more right about the Bx41. Farebeaters galore. Hell might as well throw SBS on the Bx1/Bx2 too.... (not going to happen though)

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SBS should not be in Brooklyn. Many people in Brooklyn live in areas where there isn't a lot of transit or bus service. Often times i find myself and many other people running to catch the bus Imagine how much harder it would be if we had SBS. SBS may work in manhattan where trains are only at worst a few blocks away but it doesnt work in BK.

What you said above makes no sense. You're making it seem like SBS will be on the B2 or B31, routes that don't need this upgrade.

 

SBS has clearly it's advantages for heavy routes such as the B44 & 46, and hopefully other slow, but heavy routes in the near future.

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You couldn't be more right about the Bx41. Farebeaters galore. Hell might as well throw SBS on the Bx1/Bx2 too.... (not going to happen though)
Never knew that... Sometimes, I see some farebeating on Fordham Plaza though, that's it.

 

If anything, the Bx40/42 has a lot of farebeaters, notably at Westchester Square. It's no wonder why the buses get clogged up during school days. :tdown::tdown:

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Never knew that... Sometimes, I see some farebeating on Fordham Plaza though, that's it.

 

If anything, the Bx40/42 has a lot of farebeaters, notably at Westchester Square. It's no wonder why the buses get clogged up during school days. :tdown::tdown:

 

Bx15, Bx41, Bx55 all have the good ole farebeaters.

 

Hey make that... Any route that is within the South & Central Bronx has fare beaters the most ;)!

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Whats with the MTA's obsession with SBS? The only thing the B46 needs is TSP. In fact that's all that most NYC bus routes need.....

 

Makes me wonder if every route in NYC will one day become BRT route...

 

They think BRT service is the answer to everything, but not really.

 

I'd rather see Light Rail service out of Bayonne to SI instead of an +SBS.

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Never knew that... Sometimes, I see some farebeating on Fordham Plaza though, that's it.

 

If anything, the Bx40/42 has a lot of farebeaters, notably at Westchester Square. It's no wonder why the buses get clogged up during school days. :tdown::tdown:

 

I should know, those were my two lines back before I graduated high school.

I never farebeat but my fellow students sure did. Even though those two routes are not SBS, the EAGLE team would be kept busy handing out tickets on those routes if they were ever deployed there.

 

Bx15, Bx41, Bx55 all have the good ole farebeaters.

 

Hey make that... Any route that is within the South & Central Bronx has fare beaters the most ;)!

 

Pretty much unfortunately. It's worse when said routes go through school areas. School kids are the worse when it comes to farebeating as well as vandalism to the (MTA)'s buses and subway cars.

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Before I turn this into a 'revoke student metrocards' discussion:

 

that's exactly why some of those kids don't deserve to have those cards. They still farebeat even when they have their cards. If they are the delinquent types that are going to school to stay off the streets, then what's the point of putting them in school? It's just a waste of resources and a drain on the DOE budget to teach 'dead weight'.

 

When on the trains/buses they make the ride intolerable and are usually the ones that causes the most damage in vandalism. I would say those types should be put in military boot camps to 'correct' their behavior or just to keep them 'occupied' and off the streets. That should be a good way to scare them: either behave or get sent to the military to learn some discipline.

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Before I turn this into a 'revoke student metrocards' discussion:

 

that's exactly why some of those kids don't deserve to have those cards. They still farebeat even when they have their cards. If they are the delinquent types that are going to school to stay off the streets, then what's the point of putting them in school? It's just a waste of resources and a drain on the DOE budget to teach 'dead weight'.

 

When on the trains/buses they make the ride intolerable and are usually the ones that causes the most damage in vandalism. I would say those types should be put in military boot camps to 'correct' their behavior or just to keep them 'occupied' and off the streets. That should be a good way to scare them: either behave or get sent to the military to learn some discipline.

 

I bet even if the cards were unlimited, they would still farebeat. The numbers of farebeaters could decrease, but not as much.

 

Its sad how students protested against the (MTA) for almost losing the MetroCard, but SOME of them are the same people who continue to farebeat. Now with the ticket going up to $500, that doesn't stop anyone from farebeating. FOCUS on ENFORCEMENT.

 

The (MTA) and NYPD has a load of cops in the subway system already. What about the bus? The bus service could use some under covers. Why should more attention be brought to the subway?

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I don't know. I took a trip on the B46 the other day from WBP to Kings Plz. I just don't see how this could possibly work. Hopefully when I get some details it will make sense, because as of right now it definitely does not!

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I never farebeat but my fellow students sure did. Even though those two routes are not SBS, the EAGLE team would be kept busy handing out tickets on those routes if they were ever deployed there.
A few B/O's at different bus routes allowed passengers to enter the back (even I had to do it) because the front was full of passengers who refused to move to the back. :tdown::tdown: Sometimes, when a wheelchair passenger has to board inside the bus, the other passengers waiting outside enter inside through the back door. Why do they open is seriously beyond me...

 

Not really. Sometimes intimidation is the way to stop fare-beaters.
Yep, just like that one time I saw a police officer having a nice talk with a student after he was caught farebeating.

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A few B/O's at different bus routes allowed passengers to enter the back (even I had to do it) because the front was full of passengers who refused to move to the back. :tdown::tdown: Sometimes, when a wheelchair passenger has to board inside the bus, the other passengers waiting outside enter inside through the back door. Why do they open is seriously beyond me...

 

Was this by any chance a low floor bus? people tend to have issues going to the back on a low floor for some reason...

 

Yep, just like that one time I saw a police officer having a nice talk with a student after he was caught farebeating.

 

I bet that student will think twice (sarcasm) about fare-beating again but who am I kidding? They still would do it again anyways:tdown:

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