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MattTrain

No Sunday Brooklyn Express Bus Service

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VG8: The answer is more service on the Bx10. No Artics (for now), no extra dispatchers, no extra babysitting by said dispatchers. And I think that if necessary, the express bus service can be reduced so that service on the Bx10 can be increased. It is just my belief that the express buses are a blatant example of frivolousness in a situation like this and I find it dumb to have expensive, traffic-ridden express buses running around with a good bit of room most of the time (except rush hours, I suppose, but I *always* saw empty seats on the things, even during rush hours) while locals, which are definitely cheaper to use, cheaper to operate, and probably have more potential to encourage ridership in this case, have to suffer so much.

 

Feh, it is a 'whatever' situation if you ask me.

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VG8: The answer is more service on the Bx10. No Artics (for now), no extra dispatchers, no extra babysitting by said dispatchers. And I think that if necessary, the express bus service can be reduced so that service on the Bx10 can be increased. It is just my belief that the express buses are a blatant example of frivolousness in a situation like this and I find it dumb to have expensive, traffic-ridden express buses running around with a good bit of room most of the time (except rush hours, I suppose, but I *always* saw empty seats on the things, even during rush hours) while locals, which are definitely cheaper to use, cheaper to operate, and probably have more potential to encourage ridership in this case, have to suffer so much.

 

Feh, it is a 'whatever' situation if you ask me.

 

You didn't answer the question as to why artics wouldn't be feasible??? They're obviously not running them for now, but why couldn't they? If it's about capacity then surely artics would work just fine. As for cutting express buses, we have no subways and cutting service would mean several more transfers. If you use MetroNorth, you are already making one transfer, and cutting service could mean one or two more transfers which is completely unnecessary. Like I said ridership fluctuates on our express buses just like with any service, but the fact of the matter is we USE our express buses. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

As for this nonsense about sitting in traffic, I've been using all three express buses for a while now and only once have I been stuck in traffic. Despite your argument about them being wasteful, they are actually not uber expensive to operate, as the entire trip can be done in under an hour (I know as I've used the BxM2 from one end to the under). If I did the same thing using MetroNorth, say from the West Side (34th street), I would have to take two trains to get to Grand Central and then a shuttle bus from MetroNorth which would be well over an hour. You've lived in Riverdale for 10 years yet you weren't even aware of how many older folks use the express buses there? Just because you see an empty bus doesn't mean that it isn't used. The buses have stops in which they can empty out quickly and fill up quickly and again ridership on the lines fluctuates. You're going solely on what you've noticed from the outside without actually having used them which is what a few other folks are basing their opinions on. :tdown:

 

Also, you act like trains are never delayed. There is something called train traffic too you know and other things that cause delays. It would be a terrible idea to be like the folks on Long Island many of who are left stranded without the LIRR.

 

You haven't said where you've seen the buses at nor if you actually even used them, so if I see empty express buses at the same point I can easily conclude that they're not used either. Finally, despite your claims about folks in Riverdale being discouraged about using the express buses, that is completely wrong. Folks there move there knowing the transportation options and many of them prefer the express bus over MetroNorth or the bus simply because they are more accessible, offer a quicker commute with fewer transfers and are also cheaper than MetroNorth.

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First of all Staten Island doesn't have subways so that's a moot point. Second just because a person takes the bus doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have a stigma against walking. I've seen plenty of folks on Staten Island jump into a car from the local or express bus and vice versa. And there is no "may". There are folks on Staten Island especially that look down on folks that walk even more so. I think you seem to be overlooking the fact that I specifically stated that this is the case in select areas NOT overall.

 

I was referring to the local buses, the same way you were.

 

Name me one neighborhood where somebody is going to be walking, and an S__ is going to pass by, and the people on board are going to be thinking something along the lines of "Look at that loser walking instead of taking this bus".

 

It's the same thing as B35 said, just in SI instead of The Bronx (that's why he mentioned the Bx39 as well as the (2) train).

 

And I see very few people go towards their car when they get off the local bus. I know a few students who get driven to/from the local bus to get to school, but I have yet to see a regular adult jump into a car after getting off the local bus.

 

VG8: The answer is more service on the Bx10. No Artics (for now), no extra dispatchers, no extra babysitting by said dispatchers. And I think that if necessary, the express bus service can be reduced so that service on the Bx10 can be increased. It is just my belief that the express buses are a blatant example of frivolousness in a situation like this and I find it dumb to have expensive, traffic-ridden express buses running around with a good bit of room most of the time (except rush hours, I suppose, but I *always* saw empty seats on the things, even during rush hours) while locals, which are definitely cheaper to use, cheaper to operate, and probably have more potential to encourage ridership in this case, have to suffer so much.

 

Feh, it is a 'whatever' situation if you ask me.

 

In this specific instance (Riverdale), I actually agree with Via Garibaldi. The BxM1/2 are actually pretty efficient. Not anything spectacular like the BxM7 or anything, but enough that the service levels should remain as is. Maybe service could be reduced a little if there is enough spare capacity (and by extra, I don't mean like 1 or 2 seats) and the money could give the Bx10 a couple of extra runs, but I don't think you should do anything drastic. I think the bunching problem should be fixed somehow (maybe some sort of limited or something) before express bus service is reduced.

 

You didn't answer the question as to why artics wouldn't be feasible??? They're obviously not running them for now, but why couldn't they? If it's about capacity then surely artics would work just fine. As for cutting express buses, we have no subways and cutting service would mean several more transfers. If you use MetroNorth, you are already making one transfer, and cutting service could mean one or two more transfers which is completely unnecessary. Like I said ridership fluctuates on our express buses just like with any service, but the fact of the matter is we USE our express buses. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Artics wouldn't work (I assume) because the Bx10 isn't that frequent, and so any gaps in service would be made worse by artics (because the MTA replaces 5 standard buses with 4 artics).

 

So if the Bx10 runs every 8 minutes, having artics would make the headways every 10 minutes, and if bunching still occurs, you still have long waits (though at least you solve part of the capacity problem). Artics are generally used for routes more frequent than that (though it might work on the Bx10 headways. I'm just saying what his reasoning probably is)

 

Obviously for middays, it's a no-go (15 minute headways would become 20 minute headways, and if the bunching is as bad as he says, those waits become even longer).

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I was referring to the local buses, the same way you were.

 

Name me one neighborhood where somebody is going to be walking, and an S__ is going to pass by, and the people on board are going to be thinking something along the lines of "Look at that loser walking instead of taking this bus".

 

It's the same thing as B35 said, just in SI instead of The Bronx (that's why he mentioned the Bx39 as well as the (2) train).

 

And I see very few people go towards their car when they get off the local bus. I know a few students who get driven to/from the local bus to get to school, but I have yet to see a regular adult jump into a car after getting off the local bus.

 

Okay, would you like me to provide you with some hard cold stats for this? You live in a more urban area where folks walk more so you're less likely to see that, but there are areas where this is true.

 

I've already given my examples and quite frankly there is really nothing for me to add, so I'm done with that discussion. NEXT!

 

 

Artics wouldn't work (I assume) because the Bx10 isn't that frequent, and so any gaps in service would be made worse by artics (because the MTA replaces 5 standard buses with 4 artics).

 

So if the Bx10 runs every 8 minutes, having artics would make the headways every 10 minutes, and if bunching still occurs, you still have long waits (though at least you solve part of the capacity problem).

 

Obviously for middays, it's a no-go (15 minute headways would become 20 minute headways, and if the bunching is as bad as he says, those waits become even longer).

 

Yeah but he also said that the buses are too crowded, meaning that folks are being left behind so they could use some artics where needed to reduce the overcrowding. It sounds like to me that there are two issues and that they aren't necessarily connected, though they could be to a degree.

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1) Okay, would you like me to provide you with some hard cold stats for this? You live in a more urban area where folks walk more so you're less likely to see that, but there are areas where this is true.

 

I've already given my examples and quite frankly there is really nothing for me to add, so I'm done with that discussion. NEXT!

 

2) Yeah but he also said that the buses are too crowded, meaning that folks are being left behind so they could use some artics where needed to reduce the overcrowding. It sounds like to me that there are two issues and that they aren't necessarily connected, though they could be to a degree.

 

1) My area's no more urban than your (former) area.

 

I'm not denying there are drivers who look down on pedestrians, but I highly doubt there's an area where the local bus riders look down on pedestrians. Maybe if you're walking along like Arthur Kill Road (in the Charleston area) or through the Greenbelt or something (but I doubt anybody walks through there because there's nothing to walk to), but other than that, the local bus riders aren't going to think any less of a pedestrian they see in the street.

 

2) True. We'll just have to see what he thinks.

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1) My area's no more urban than your (former) area.

 

I'm not denying there are drivers who look down on pedestrians, but I highly doubt there's an area where the local bus riders look down on pedestrians. Maybe if you're walking along like Arthur Kill Road (in the Charleston area) or through the Greenbelt or something (but I doubt anybody walks through there because there's nothing to walk to), but other than that, the local bus riders aren't going to think any less of a pedestrian they see in the street.

 

 

Yeah but the thing is I never said anything about local bus riders or subway riders necessarily looking down on folks walking. I made the comparison of folks who walked being looked down upon more than folks who use the bus or the subway. That doesn't mean that I was saying that the folks doing the looking down are necessarily bus or subway riders.

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Yeah but the thing is I never said anything about local bus riders or subway riders necessarily looking down on folks walking. I made the comparison of folks who walked being looked down upon more than folks who use the bus or the subway. That doesn't mean that I was saying that the folks doing the looking down are necessarily bus or subway riders.

 

I see.

 

But still, I disagree with that. Unless you're purposely walking several miles for each trip you make, I doubt people are going to be looking down on you more than they would look down on a local bus rider.

 

Like for instance, if a snobby person is driving and they pass by an S44, and then they pass by me walking down Richmond Avenue, they're not going to think "Those people on the S44 are a bunch of losers, and that kid walking along the road is even more of a loser". Instead, they'd think "those people on the S44, and that kid walking along the road are both losers".

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I see.

 

But still, I disagree with that. Unless you're purposely walking several miles for each trip you make, I doubt people are going to be looking down on you more than they would look down on a local bus rider.

 

I disagree. Using public transit is bad enough in some folks eyes, but walking is even worse. Some folks will use mass transit say to go to the city, but they wouldn't be caught dead walking on Staten Island. Once they reach the island they jump right into a car.

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I disagree. Using public transit is bad enough in some folks eyes, but walking is even worse. Some folks will use mass transit say to go to the city, but they wouldn't be caught dead walking on Staten Island. Once they reach the island they jump right into a car.

 

Alright, then let me put it to you this way: A person gets off the express bus. And let's pretend they fit your description of having a stigma against walking and local buses.

 

Now let's assume that that it's late at night and they don't have access to a vehicle (yes, I know they could call car service and then pay them when they get home and find their wallet, but let's assume they can't do that for some reason).

 

They have a choice between waiting for the local bus or walking, and let's assume that walking is faster because the bus doesn't run that frequently, and that either way, they will be guaranteed to be seen by somebody they know (maybe they have a friend who lives by the bus stop or something).

 

Would there really be that much of a stigma against walking that would force them to wait the extra time for a local bus rather than walk? And let's assume it's cold out as well.

 

WHAT in God's name does this have to do with express service in Brooklyn?

 

Your guess is as good as mine.

 

I guess you could say that Brooklynites have different opinions regarding walking than SIers. I don't see how that really relates to Brooklyn express service, but at least that would be heading in the right direction as far as getting back on-topic. B)

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Unless you're purposely walking several miles for each trip you make, I doubt people are going to be looking down on you more than they would look down on a local bus rider.

 

Using public transit is bad enough in some folks eyes, but walking is even worse.

 

I agree with both of these statements....

 

Thing is though, the "separator" between them (if you will) comes down to locale.... Checkmate's statement (and what I also made a point of contention of earlier) rings true in more urban areas..... Via's statement rings true in more suburban areas (which is why I didn't reject his conjecture 100% wholesale)....

 

This particular discussion is moot.

 

 

What you said about the Bx10 being frequent is absolutely incorrect.

I have to concur w/ this.... Whenever I head out to riverdale, the Bx7's the more prevalent of the 2 routes.... I remember the exp. bus trips I used to take out there & all the times I'd have to wait for the Bx10 for the return trip back to 231st/broadway (for the (1)).... I would see more 7's heading towards 263rd, and those same buses making the trip back towards wash. hgts more commonly than I saw 10's heading towards 263rd & heading back towards norwood....

 

....which is another thing.... waiting for the 10 @ 205th st, dam Bx16 would pull in & leave... Bx30 would pull in & leave... then you'd just have an idle kingsbridge bus waiting across the street (or one idle, directly in front of that co'ner store).... couple mins. later another 30 & another 16 pulls in.... then a 10 would just come out of nowhere to pick the waiting pax. up, then pull out (with that idle KB bus still across the street, or in front of that co'ner store).... that has happened to me numerous times.....

 

....and god help you if you're waiting for it over there at bedford park (4); the wait is like, forever... I just stand there & gaze at how many Bee-Line buses arrive/depart before the 10 arrives... you'll note the gun hill buses'll come before the 10 does.....

 

As much as I like the ride, the Bx10 is not frequent, nor is it reliable.....

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I actually did ride the BxM1 and 2. I rode them a lot more when I was younger, especially when they were under Liberty Lines Express. Last time I rode them was quite long ago though. At least 5 years. But over the 5 years following, I would look through the windows while seeing the buses go by on 230 Street (where it matters the most), and I saw a good number of empty seats each time.

 

Whenever I rode them on the weekends I saw at least 10 empty seats every time. Alright, so ridership fluctuates over the years. I would just be surprised to see those buses with only five empty seats on the weekends these days. It irked me that the express bus service used to be adequate while the local bus service sucked and sucks more now.

 

Artics are not the answer because MTA would have no reason to put them there and improve service frequencies. It would be an economic risk. If I were running the MTA I would not do it either. Not only would it not improve the wait time; it would also not improve the dwell times since more people waiting means more time spent waiting for them to get on when the bus shows up.

 

Artics only belong on SBS and on certain local/limited bus routes. Yes, they use them to cut service, but some local/limited lines see increases in ridership even after Artics are introduced. The Bx9 is an example of this. The Bx10 is definitely not a place to put Artics. Again, for now.

 

Bunching is a problem on nearly any local/limited bus route that picks up a good number of people and has lousy service. The solution is more service, not Artics.

 

Also alterations to some bus routes, which have been discussed on the forums time and time again. One thing that was annoying about the Bx10 was its circuitousness. A lot of Bronx bus routes are like that because of the terrain. That is why so many more bus routes in Manhattan and Brooklyn are straight. Flat terrains in those boroughs.

 

And B35, as you notice, the Bx10 is far more circuitous and goes through sparser areas than the Bx16 and Bx30. And of course my best friend the express bus competes with it. Easy to see why it is rather low on Riverdale's priority list. Not easy dealing with the circuitous and infrequent Bx10. What is the meaning of life?

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I actually did ride the BxM1 and 2. I rode them a lot more when I was younger, especially when they were under Liberty Lines Express. Last time I rode them was quite long ago though. At least 5 years. But over the 5 years following, I would look through the windows while seeing the buses go by on 230 Street (where it matters the most), and I saw a good number of empty seats each time.

 

Whenever I rode them on the weekends I saw at least 10 empty seats every time. Alright, so ridership fluctuates over the years. I would just be surprised to see those buses with only five empty seats on the weekends these days. It irked me that the express bus service used to be adequate while the local bus service sucked and sucks more now.

 

Artics are not the answer because MTA would have no reason to put them there and improve service frequencies. It would be an economic risk. If I were running the MTA I would not do it either. Not only would it not improve the wait time; it would also not improve the dwell times since more people waiting means more time spent waiting for them to get on when the bus shows up.

 

Artics only belong on SBS and on certain local/limited bus routes. Yes, they use them to cut service, but some local/limited lines see increases in ridership even after Artics are introduced. The Bx9 is an example of this. The Bx10 is definitely not a place to put Artics. Again, for now.

 

Bunching is a problem on nearly any local/limited bus route that picks up a good number of people and has lousy service. The solution is more service, not Artics.

 

Also alterations to some bus routes, which have been discussed on the forums time and time again. One thing that was annoying about the Bx10 was its circuitousness. A lot of Bronx bus routes are like that because of the terrain. That is why so many more bus routes in Manhattan and Brooklyn are straight. Flat terrains in those boroughs.

 

And B35, as you notice, the Bx10 is far more circuitous and goes through sparser areas than the Bx16 and Bx30. And of course my best friend the express bus competes with it. Easy to see why it is rather low on Riverdale's priority list. Not easy dealing with the circuitous and infrequent Bx10. What is the meaning of life?

 

 

Speaking of 230th street over by Tibbett, I was surprised to see the number of folks get on there this morning while on the BxM1. They must live right on the Riverdale border. Those stops on the weekends usually aren't used too much.

 

I still don't get your reasoning with the Bx10. You're saying that buses are overcrowded in some cases and I'm saying why can't they use artics here and there? I'm not saying make the whole line run with artics just select runs on the route that get heavy usage. That would at least solve the overcrowding unless you're saying that the overcrowding is caused by the bunching? If so then that's another case.

 

And here's another example of what a time saver our express buses are. I got the last BxM18 tonight at 44th & Madison at about 19:45 and got off of the bus at 20:15. Can't beat that. :cool:

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Guys if you want to talk about Bronx or other citywide Manhattan-based express bus feel free to discuss it by creating a new thread. Or else this chat will be history. :lock:

 

Please lets return to focus chatting about anything related to the Brooklyn-Manhattan express buses and lack of weekend service. Thanks:eek:

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