"Follow the Leader"

[BZGuy]

I know this is a 100% stupid question but, can somebody explain the whole "Leader/Follower" deal.

 

Is it two buses running on the same schedule?

 

Is the follower allowed to pass the leader? I would have a problem with blowing my swing because somebody wants to drag the line.

[checkmatechamp13]

I've seen it done a decent number of times, but I don't know if it's against the rules or anything. I always thought that as long as the bus doesn't get ahead of schedule, they're allowed to do what they want as far as scheduling goes.

 

Like for instance, sometimes if a bus runs every 15 minutes, and it's supposed to arrive at ______ on the 0:00s, 0:15s, 0:30s, and 0:45s past the hour, you might see two buses arrive at 0:10, with one bus being 10 minutes late and the other being 5 minutes early because he had fewer passengers.

 

But the thing is that they usually play leapfrog, so I don't know if it technically counts as "passing the leader".

[gtNovaBusRTS9369]

I know this is a 100% stupid question but, can somebody explain the whole "Leader/Follower" deal.

 

Is it two buses running on the same schedule?

 

Is the follower allowed to pass the leader? I would have a problem with blowing my swing because somebody wants to drag the line.

 

At times it is supposed the two buses running on the same schedule intentionally. The follower is there to supplement/relief it's leader in passengers. If the schedule or the run itself calls for it then it is the necessary action for the follower to bypass it's supposed "leader".

 

This is AFAIK about this.

[Gorgor]

During the PM rush I know that they send out two M79 buses at a time from East End. One will pick up at York and 2nd while the other one picks up from 1st and 3rd.

 

They used to have it like that during the AM rush years back but I'm not sure when exactly they stopped that.

[R188 7857]

Well, this is what I have experienced alot of times. A Q28 was late. When it arrived, got on the bus, seats are half taken up, when we were almost at Northern, the seats were taken up, few standees, some more people got on, a bus passes us. Yeah, same thing, Q28. At the next stop, HONK, passed it. Next stop, HONK, passed us. goes in a rhythm like that, unless the bus behind has a passenger getting off, so its 2 buses 1 stop.

 

As for the question, yes, the follower can pass the leader at all times in the case were one bus is early and one is late, so they arrive together or catch up to eachother.

[nostalgia]

I know this is a 100% stupid question but, can somebody explain the whole "Leader/Follower" deal.

 

Is it two buses running on the same schedule?

 

Is the follower allowed to pass the leader? I would have a problem with blowing my swing because somebody wants to drag the line.

 

Leader and follower are based on the timetable. Suppose the headway is 8 minutes and the running time between points A and B is 6 minutes. Suppose Run1 has heavy traffic, red lights, and falls behind schedule. From running late, Run1 will pick up its passengers AND Run2's passengers. Run2 is now LESS than 8 minutes behind because Run1is late and picking up Run2's passengers. Run1 will continue to pick up Run2's passengers, falling further behind schedule. Run2 comes down the street and doesn't have as many passengers to pick up as it should because they are on Run1's bus. In this scenario, Run1 if the leader and run2 is the follower. The buses are bunching up.

 

On the subway, a train dispatcher can see a train is behind schedule from looking at the model board. (A train isn't where its supposed to be.) A few weeks ago, a L train left 116th Street very late. The dispatcher told the crew to operate express from Broadway Junction to DeKalb. Bus Operations doesn't know where the buses are along the route unless there's a street supervisor.

 

I don't know the rules for a follower passing the leader. Passing the leader would make a bad situation worse because the follower would now be running ahead of schedule. I think it would make more sense for the leader to put up a "NEXT BUS PLEASE" destination sign and run express (unless somebody wants to get off) to get back on time. The follower would stay on schedule.

[checkmatechamp13]

Leader and follower are based on the timetable. Suppose the headway is 8 minutes and the running time between points A and B is 6 minutes. Suppose Run1 has heavy traffic, red lights, and falls behind schedule. From running late, Run1 will pick up its passengers AND Run2's passengers. Run2 is now LESS than 8 minutes behind because Run1is late and picking up Run2's passengers. Run1 will continue to pick up Run2's passengers, falling further behind schedule. Run2 comes down the street and doesn't have as many passengers to pick up as it should because they are on Run1's bus. In this scenario, Run1 if the leader and run2 is the follower. The buses are bunching up.

 

On the subway, a train dispatcher can see a train is behind schedule from looking at the model board. (A train isn't where its supposed to be.) A few weeks ago, a L train left 116th Street very late. The dispatcher told the crew to operate express from Broadway Junction to DeKalb. Bus Operations doesn't know where the buses are along the route unless there's a street supervisor.

 

I don't know the rules for a follower passing the leader. Passing the leader would make a bad situation worse because the follower would now be running ahead of schedule. I think it would make more sense for the leader to put up a "NEXT BUS PLEASE" destination sign and run express (unless somebody wants to get off) to get back on time. The follower would stay on schedule.

 

First of all, he's a B/O. He knows how bunching works.

 

Second of all, I didn't realize the served 116th Street. :confused:

 

And if it's a busy route, it could be possible for the follower to be late as well (just not quite as late). For instance, there were times when I would wait 15 minutes for an S46/96, when 2 buses were supposed to come, and then one bus would come and flag us (because of course, people can't move to the back. :mad: :tdown: ), and then another bus would come a little bit later and also try to flag us. Both of those buses were late, but the first one was obviously very late. But if the second bus caught up to the first one, passing it wouldn't put it ahead of schedule: It would just put it back on schedule.

[nostalgia]

First of all, he's a B/O. He knows how bunching works.

 

Second of all, I didn't realize the served 116th Street. :confused:

 

And if it's a busy route, it could be possible for the follower to be late as well (just not quite as late). For instance, there were times when I would wait 15 minutes for an S46/96, when 2 buses were supposed to come, and then one bus would come and flag us (because of course, people can't move to the back. :mad: :tdown: ), and then another bus would come a little bit later and also try to flag us. Both of those buses were late, but the first one was obviously very late. But if the second bus caught up to the first one, passing it wouldn't put it ahead of schedule: It would just put it back on schedule.

 

My error on the . I thought of Rockaway and the 116th Street station.

[Grand Concourse]

I've seen it done a decent number of times, but I don't know if it's against the rules or anything. I always thought that as long as the bus doesn't get ahead of schedule, they're allowed to do what they want as far as scheduling goes.

 

Like for instance, sometimes if a bus runs every 15 minutes, and it's supposed to arrive at ______ on the 0:00s, 0:15s, 0:30s, and 0:45s past the hour, you might see two buses arrive at 0:10, with one bus being 10 minutes late and the other being 5 minutes early because he had fewer passengers.

 

But the thing is that they usually play leapfrog, so I don't know if it technically counts as "passing the leader".

 

That's happened a few times on the B41 and B6, both cases either the bus in front stops to pick up riders and if my bus doesn't have anyone getting off, we skip the stop and go to the next one if there's ppl waiting.

[B35 via Church]

to be honest, I didn't think there was a term for it, nor necessarily something that was planned.....

 

Acela would be a good candidate to shed insight on this, since he works the B46.... and this concept of follower/follower happens all day on that line.....

 

 

* I say "follower/follower"....

 

...because leader/follower suggests to me that the supposed "leader" in the mix is responsible for picking up the bulk of the passengers along the line during the timeframe both buses are running.... and also, it also suggests that the "follower" can't pass the "leader" - For the sole purpose of simply remaining to being in front....

 

I mean, I would imagine the solitary concept of being on time & the solitary concept of being the "lead bus" are of very different importances; with the former being of the greater importance.....

[MHV9218]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Fresh Pond]

Simply put, your leader is the bus that's scheduled leave in front of you and you follower is the bus that's scheduled to leave behind you. Every bus has a leader and a follower unless you're the first bus of the day (no leader) or the last bus of the night (no follower).

 

IIRC, if you pass your leader/your follower passes you, it is against the rules since one of you guys aren't maintaining the schedule. If you see 2 or more buses going down the line at once, it usually means either one is late, one is early, or one is on time and the other is late/early. It is very common for drivers to pass their leader or to have their follower pass them since one of them picked up a full load and the next bus is empty. Some drivers pass their leaders to help the others out if they're empty and some won't pass their leader at all no matter how late his/her leader is/

[East New York]

Ok, lets get this explained plain and simple because most of you guys are all over the place with this one. Not a stupid question at all BZ.

 

The leader and follower are based on the same timepoint most all of the time. Sometimes they are scheduled within a minute or two of each other, but will not show on a printed/digital timetable. The leader is the first bus to pull off and the follower pulls off imediately behind the bus. When the leaders bus fills up, the follower is there help out. During rush periods the follower passes the leader almost every run. Most times than not, the leader will eventually pass the follower again as the load tapers off.

 

All routes and runs DO NOT have leaders and followers.

Most Leader/Follower runs occur during rush periods, and some outside of rush.

Some followers do not pass their leaders.

 

The people who are basically correct in the statements they posted were thanked by me. Nostalgia is way off, and Fresh Pond is just a little out in left field as well.

 

Some of the operators can chime in on this as well. Especially Acela, as Flatbush has more Leader/Follower runs than any other depot.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Ok, lets get this explained plain and simple because most of you guys are all over the place with this one. Not a stupid question at all BZ.

 

The leader and follower are based on the same timepoint most all of the time. Sometimes they are scheduled within a minute or two of each other, but will not show on a printed/digital timetable. The leader is the first bus to pull off and the follower pulls off imediately behind the bus. When the leaders bus fills up, the follower is there help out. During rush periods the follower passes the leader almost every run. Most times than not, the leader will eventually pass the follower again as the load tapers off.

 

All routes and runs DO NOT have leaders and followers.

Most Leader/Follower runs occur during rush periods, and some outside of rush.

Some followers do not pass their leaders.

 

The people who are basically correct in the statements they posted were thanked by me. Nostalgia is way off, and Fresh Pond is a little out in left field as well.

 

Here's another question for you. What do you call buses that are scheduled within a few minutes of each other that clearly to do the same thing that the leader/follower set up does on one line?

 

It seems like there is something similar on the Madison/5th Avenue lines with the M1 and M3 coming almost right behind each other and then the M2 comes and picks up at the big stops. I've noticed this set up and it works out pretty well going up from via Madison. The M1 and M3 if things run right switch off of each other (even though they sometimes have different stops, but they're both locals) and they usually keep up with the M2 up until a certain point anyway, so is there any name for this? It's clearly done purposely from what I've seen anyway. It allows for even loading and allows the locals and the limited to move quickly, though not always the case.

[nostalgia]

Ok, lets get this explained plain and simple because most of you guys are all over the place with this one. Not a stupid question at all BZ.

 

The leader and follower are based on the same timepoint most all of the time. Sometimes they are scheduled within a minute or two of each other, but will not show on a printed/digital timetable. The leader is the first bus to pull off and the follower pulls off imediately behind the bus. When the leaders bus fills up, the follower is there help out. During rush periods the follower passes the leader almost every run. Most times than not, the leader will eventually pass the follower again as the load tapers off.

 

All routes and runs DO NOT have leaders and followers.

Most Leader/Follower runs occur during rush periods, and some outside of rush.

Some followers do not pass their leaders.

 

The people who are basically correct in the statements they posted were thanked by me. Nostalgia is way off, and Fresh Pond is a little out in left field as well.

 

Some of the operators can chime in on this as well. Especially Acela, as Flatbush has more Leader/Follower runs than any other depot.

 

You write "all routes and runs DO NOT have leaders and followers." Then in the NEXT sentence you write, "Most leader/follower runs occur during rush periods..." The two sentences are inconsistent.

How can there be leader/follower runs when you wrote there aren't any leader/follower runs?

[Q101 E Midtown]

You write "all routes and runs DO NOT have leaders and followers." Then in the NEXT sentence you write, "Most leader/follower runs occur during rush periods..." The two sentences are inconsistent.

How can there be leader/follower runs when you wrote there aren't any leader/follower runs?

 

I think he means not every route and run has follower/leader and most of the ones that do are during rush/hour.

 

But thanks, ENY, because that actually explains a lot.

[Gorgor]

Just the other day I was on the M15 SBS and the driver was going fast the entire run. Between 14th Street and 23rd Street this guy just goes in the left lane and passes another M15 SBS, and then we catch up to another M15 SBS right before 79th Street, except they made the light and we didn't. I was really surprised that it only took a little over 40 minutes to get from Wall Street to 86th, which is only about 5-10 minutes slower than the express bus used to be.

[East New York]

I think he means not every route and run has follower/leader and most of the ones that do are during rush/hour.

 

Thank you! That's exactly what I mean.

[checkmatechamp13]

Here's another question for you. What do you call buses that are scheduled within a few minutes of each other that clearly to do the same thing that the leader/follower set up does on one line?

 

It seems like there is something similar on the Madison/5th Avenue lines with the M1 and M3 coming almost right behind each other and then the M2 comes and picks up at the big stops. I've noticed this set up and it works out pretty well going up from via Madison. The M1 and M3 if things run right switch off of each other (even though they sometimes have different stops, but they're both locals) and they usually keep up with the M2 up until a certain point anyway, so is there any name for this? It's clearly done purposely from what I've seen anyway. It allows for even loading and allows the locals and the limited to move quickly, though not always the case.

 

I call it bunching up the buses on purpose for no reason. I mean, if you have the opportunity to space the buses evenly and give really frequent service, why screw it up by having the buses run right behind each other?

 

And for the M1/M3, is that northbound or southbound or both? Because if it's northbound and you have buses skipping every other stop, there is the slight chance that you could skip somebody who needed a certain bus (For instance, if the M3 passes by, and a person needed to go to Washington Heights, the person is forced to get on the M1 and hope it catches up)

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I call it bunching up the buses on purpose for no reason. I mean, if you have the opportunity to space the buses evenly and give really frequent service, why screw it up by having the buses run right behind each other?

 

And for the M1/M3, is that northbound or southbound or both? Because if it's northbound and you have buses skipping every other stop, there is the slight chance that you could skip somebody who needed a certain bus (For instance, if the M3 passes by, and a person needed to go to Washington Heights, the person is forced to get on the M1 and hope it catches up)

 

All I can say is ride the line and you would then understand why it works with buses coming within a few minutes of each other. The spacing makes perfect sense and they are not bunched up for no reason. They are scheduled that way so that one bus isn't hit with all of the passengers which allows for even crowding. You can argue that you don't see how, but like I said, if the buses come as scheduled it works out just like that.

 

And it's been this way for years and I have yet to see anyone passed by, so that's not even an issue.

[MHV9218]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The M2 has leaders and followers all day while it runs Limited, just to clarify that. As for the M1 - M4 passing around, I haven't really noticed any rhyme or reason to how the locals show up, but my guess is it's just bunching in many instances.

 

No they generally don't just show up in bunches if they're just starting their runs. If you use the stop by Union Square East where the Toys R Us is, you'll notice that an M1 and M3 come nearly minutes apart if not together, followed eventually by an M2 and this set up stays like that all day. Further up on Madison or on 5th of course they do bunch, but I'm talking about towards the beginning of the run. They are clearly set up to run like that on purpose and from what I see it allows the M1, M2 and M3 to all run at good speeds with rather balanced loads so long as they come as scheduled. How does the M2 have leaders and followers though? Those buses are usually scheduled about 12 minutes apart for most of the day?? :confused:

 

What always irritates me is it seems to be almost impossible to catch a friggin' M2 on 5th Avenue and if you do they always come in bunches. :mad: However coming up Madison you can usually get one on time. What I don't get is if it's traffic, then why do so many M1s, M3s and M4s (all local buses) come while it takes so long for an M2 to come down 5th Avenue? The only bus with a earlier terminal to the M2 is the M1 out of those local buses, so I'm not sure what in the world holds up the M2 coming down 5th Avenue.

[nostalgia]

I call it bunching up the buses on purpose for no reason. I mean, if you have the opportunity to space the buses evenly and give really frequent service, why screw it up by having the buses run right behind each other?

 

And for the M1/M3, is that northbound or southbound or both? Because if it's northbound and you have buses skipping every other stop, there is the slight chance that you could skip somebody who needed a certain bus (For instance, if the M3 passes by, and a person needed to go to Washington Heights, the person is forced to get on the M1 and hope it catches up)

 

The real question is how are the buses scheduled. Are the schedules for the Fifth Avenue line built with frequent spaced buses or is each line scheduled independently of the others?

 

My transit friend who works for WMATA told me that schedules are built around a control point. The control point can be anywhere along the route. It's conceivable that the control point is Fifth Avenue and 86th. (It could be somewhere else.) The scheduling department decides that the sequence of buses will be M3, M1, M5, M4, M2. The schedule is designed so that the buses will pass the control point a few minutes apart. If they schedule each route separately, it can be feast or famine.

 

I don't know how Q32 fits into the mix. It's really a supplemental M4 below Central Park.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The real question is how are the buses scheduled. Are the schedules for the Fifth Avenue line built with frequent spaced buses or is each line scheduled independently of the others?

 

My transit friend who works for WMATA told me that schedules are built around a control point. The control point can be anywhere along the route. It's conceivable that the control point is Fifth Avenue and 86th. (It could be somewhere else.) The scheduling department decides that the sequence of buses will be M3, M1, M5, M4, M2. The schedule is designed so that the buses will pass the control point a few minutes apart. If they schedule each route separately, it can be feast or famine.

 

I don't know how Q32 fits into the mix. It's really a supplemental M4 below Central Park.

 

The Q32s from my observations don't fit into the mix well because they're always late and come in bunches. They and the M4 are like twin brothers. Bunched and late. The only difference is the signage. You'll see two Q32s followed by two M4s. :mad:

[checkmatechamp13]

All I can say is ride the line and you would then understand why it works with buses coming within a few minutes of each other. The spacing makes perfect sense and they are not bunched up for no reason. They are scheduled that way so that one bus isn't hit with all of the passengers which allows for even crowding. You can argue that you don't see how, but like I said, if the buses come as scheduled it works out just like that.

 

And it's been this way for years and I have yet to see anyone passed by, so that's not even an issue.

 

If they're spaced out evenly, then they won't get hit with a ton of people anyway. Even spacing should equal even crowding.

 

And by being passed by, I don't mean flagged. I mean that the driver thinks that everybody's destination is along Madison Avenue and skips the stop, when there's somebody who needs his bus specifically.

 

What always irritates me is it seems to be almost impossible to catch a friggin' M2 on 5th Avenue and if you do they always come in bunches. :mad: However coming up Madison you can usually get one on time. What I don't get is if it's traffic, then why do so many M1s, M3s and M4s (all local buses) come while it takes so long for an M2 to come down 5th Avenue? The only bus with a earlier terminal to the M2 is the M1 out of those local buses, so I'm not sure what in the world holds up the M2 coming down 5th Avenue.

 

The M2 and M3 both start at the same terminal in Washington Heights.